Shepard Quest Mk VI, Technological Revolution

Simple solution would be making the code for them open source. That way anyone concern about the issue, such as the various political parties, could check to ensure that they are fair and unbiased.

That and I wouldn't be surprised if there were laws and regulations outlawing designed to prevent intentional bias in data analysis tools.
I had a whole response written then I reread your post and I think there's been a misunderstanding.
For starters I am not concerned that a single manufacturer will corner the market to make everyone vote the way they want them to. There are tons of programmers out there, and many companies that may make one of these.

Secondly, bias is inherent to all things that cannot be qualitatively compared. A young person might be more concerned about jobs compared to a married couple who care about house prices. These people will want a VI that shares their biases, as it lets them make decisions on what they care about.
I didn't mean that it was an entirely bad thing, just that I don't see how this will improve the system compared to TV pundits and biased media sources.
 
Just to clarify, its eternal youth, not immortality. The key difference regarding population control is that menopause is no longer a thing. And all the old gross people are no longer either.

Biological immortality and eternal youth are basically the same thing. And old people having kids ain't anything special. Exowombs and the like are already a thing, so menopause is already irrelevant.

Simply put, eternal youth won't crash the economy. Probably the opposite as old people that are suddenly teenagers again start partying it up.


Also of note for this argument, and the skillsoft: ME wiki says the Alliance economy by the time of ME 1 is about the size of the Elcors. And those are AFAIK not exactly heavyweights in terms of economy. Nevermind that Asari and Salarians, whom have both been spacefaring for millenia already, utterly eclipse the alliance. So if we suddenly have 12 billion* highly trained, young (and experienced) employees to offer, they can easily set up in Citadel space if the Alliance can't contain them. Or Citadel companies come to the Alliance to make use of that huge group of experts.

And the Citadels (and the Terminus probably as well) economy is so damn huge that us adding a few billion PhDs will barely register on that scale.


If the Alliance existed in a vacuum, it would represent a problem, but I think the comparison here is like Netherlands versus NATO as a whole. If the Netherlands suddenly has half it's population get a degree, the rest of NATO can still buffer that influx without a problem. (And to stretch that analogy further, Batarians are compared to North Korea for a reason. The Citadel has them under sanctions, which cripples their economy so the Alliance actually stands a chance)

*Earth in ME has a population of ~11 billion. The colonies won't have more than a billion between them all.
 
Is that in the codex? Not that I disbelieve, just . . . attention to detail.

Revy herself noted that she was born the normal way. Which is selecting eggs and implanting them in her mom (I think it was in the bio-engineering update). That's the first half of the tech and is fairly common if Revys parents did that.

The other support for that is available cloning tech. Like that Krogan army that was being cloned and Grunt himself. The tech is there, and I'm fairly sure there are people in the Alliance that wish for children, but can't carry themselves for medical reasons. It makes sense that it is available for those that need it as cloning vats are basically the same tech.

It's not exactly hyper-advanced technology given the biotech the setting has available even without Revy.
 
On the benefit side, we not only keep people from dying a slow, withering death, we also make pension schemes obsolete, which means more money being used by consumers to buy stuff instead of supporting pensioners. Medical costs are gonna fall like a rock as aging diseases ain't a thing anymore. The only expense is the Youth Treatment, which is probably fairly cheap in comparison.
Point of order: Eternal Youth would probably make pension systems more relevant, and that's not a bad thing, because frankly thanks to VIs, PI's improved VIs, and, hopefully soon, PI's AIs, there's just not going to be much useful work for the average, non-exceptional person to do. As I see it, once we're done implementing P&P skills, Eternal Youth, and Blue Box AIs, the average human's life will eventually be:

1) Be born into a family that will always be able to support having children, because the state can and will pay people to have children (because otherwise the birth rate will fall so much as to be unsustainable; this is already happening in every industrialized nation and appears to be a trend that increases as the wealth level of the nation increases; the only way to stop it seems to be to pay people to have and raise kids).
2) Spend the first 20-25 years of your life in socialization training and various schools/apprenticeship programs. Getting an education is much easier and less boring, and other than the required "core" courses like math, science, history, communications skills, government and law, medicine, and computer science you can basically follow whatever rabbit hole you want in terms of rare or specialized fields.
3) For the next 80-100 or so years, receive a guaranteed wage of 50,000 cr/year, 5% of which goes by default into a retirement account. If you want more than that, for whatever reason, then you get a job, start a business, etc, but that wage will stay with you as a safety net, so you can take whatever risks you want and not have to worry about starving or being homeless, ever.
4) After about 80-100 years, your retirement account will have roughly 2.5-10 million cr in it (ah, the wonders of compound interest!), more than enough to live off the interest for the rest of eternity.

I doubt it. While sure a 10 year journey isn't much to an Asari having a crew makes the whole thing incredibly more difficult, dangerous, and expensive.

Because now you have to carry supplies (air/water/food), a larger reactor and hydrogen supply to support the increased power demand, manufacturing equipment to replace damaged parts since failure now means death, and a whole bunch of other stuff I'm likely not even thinking of. Then on top of all that you need a larger thrusters and FTL Drive as well as more reaction mass for those thrusters to account for all that extra mass.

Multi-year space missions are hard. It's the reason why IRL we haven't gone to Mars yet after all.
I'm very skeptical that the Council would ever allow an unmaned drone to open a Primary Relay, ever, given their "Shoot first, ask questions never" approach to people opening relays. What's more likely is that they send a bunch of drones to do the preliminary report, as well as a small handful of comm buoys so they can get those reports instantly when they arrive. If conditions seem favorable, then they send a manned mission to do another survey, only after which they'd consider opening the relay.
 
To all the people saying 'everyone will eventually be able to retire in good health and live for eternity like that' I say this:
Bullshit.

Any effective form of immortality will result in a time spent in the working environment that can best be defined as 'indefinite.' For that's how it lasts. We won't see retirees, not as we know it now. We won't see people who struck it rich working a nine to five job for a century kicking back with their feet up, a cold drink in one hand and a remote in the other.

Because of a very simple reason. There's no way that the economy can take that. Not without going so far into automatic production of everything that the only thing that's needed is maybe half a percent of the population at most overseeing the entire economic output of the nation. Because that's where it'll end up going after 100, 150 years with a life span that can be basically measured at 'yes' and the extremely low birthrate.

That might, might actually be possible. Or it might not.

But if it's not, what you are far more likely to see is people saving up for 30 to 40 years and then taking a multiple year vacation.

Or not, because there's actually no reason to invest long term without also performing a job. Because you are going to be economically interesting until the day you die, rather unlike the elderly of today who face the problems of a body that is simply not able to keep up with the demands placed upon it, causing debilitating mental and physical ailments that eventually result in it being far better and more productive for society to park these elderly deposits of knowledge somewhere safe so that they can support the succeeding generations until they pass on.
 
or you go through periods of retirement and working as you see fit. moving from profession to profession as you gather multiple skills throughout your lifetime to stave off boredom.
 
You know what. Who the hell cares?

If it gets us a seat, and thus allows us to have a better chance against the Reapers, so what if we destroy society middle term? Let us keep producing bullshit for short term gain, regardless of any consequences.

If it ain't Reapers, it ain't important.
 
I agree. While the consequences are important to consider, we do have to remember that we are part of a quest and will, in all likelihood, not need to deal with the politics of this society 100 years down the line from the current point. So while it is a moderately interesting topic to consider, the arguing is that is going on is mostly relying on speculation due to the lack of actual evidence what with the technology not actually having been invented IRL.
 
Honestly, I doubt society will collapse. Immortality tech will not cause serious problems until after the Reapers have visited, and then we got other problems to deal with. The changes caused by immortality tech will be slow enough that good planning can handle them.
P&P tech is bit more problematic, but I would be seriously skeptical of any claims that it would be unworkable.
 
What you'll generally find is that a large majority kept right on voting how they always do, with a minority of "swing voters" who Do care changing sides in any given election. This is part of why gerimandering (sp?) works. (Of course, the US system is a mess of layers of representatives and delegates who aren't actually obliged to cast their constituency's vote the way the constituants voted, vote weighting, electoral fraud, and all sorts of other shenanigans, legal and otherwise, to the point where holding it up as an example of a functional democracy is to win an argument on the subject by way of incapacitating your opponent with laughter so he annot continue. I'll admit to knowing nothing about canada.)

Various things Can increase how many people actually care enough to think beyond "my parents and grand parents voted for this party in every election. Good enough for me!". MMP instead of FPP, government actions which directly and obviously screw over the individual in question. Other stuff which doesn't come to mind at 4:20am. Though... local experience would tell one hat education doesn't lead to better voting habits so much as leaving the coubtry entirely because the pay's better elsewhere :p

That same unwillingness to think when someone else can do it for you is also a arge part of how cults get going. And why some incredibly Dumb ideologies manage to actually gather followers.

On balance, representative democracy's better than other systems primarily on the basis that (representatives/2)+1 people are far less likely to agree to be idiots in the same way at the same time than a single ruler. And it's ot even as good at that as you'd think.

All that aside, I'll still take a properly set up representative democracy over anything else anyone's come up with so far for running entities larger than can be managed with a town hall meeting. Just... don't expect members of the general public to care about anything they can't Obviously See is affecting their day to day life.

This post brought to you by "posting at 4:30am, still haven't slept yet" productions.

A lot of the issues with apathy you point out arise from systematic flaws that can be addressed however. People are apathetic when they feel their voice has no weight. I should think that the solution is to simply engineer better systems of government - which is difficult because of institutional inertia, but not impossible.

The relevant part is that Revy 'In a cave! With a box of scraps!' Sheppard should most certainly have both the means and the ability to mitigate the flaws in the system should they become important. Honestly, if something is a serious concern, spend an action on it.
 
Biological immortality and eternal youth are basically the same thing. And old people having kids ain't anything special. Exowombs and the like are already a thing, so menopause is already irrelevant.

Simply put, eternal youth won't crash the economy. Probably the opposite as old people that are suddenly teenagers again start partying it up.


Also of note for this argument, and the skillsoft: ME wiki says the Alliance economy by the time of ME 1 is about the size of the Elcors. And those are AFAIK not exactly heavyweights in terms of economy. Nevermind that Asari and Salarians, whom have both been spacefaring for millenia already, utterly eclipse the alliance. So if we suddenly have 12 billion* highly trained, young (and experienced) employees to offer, they can easily set up in Citadel space if the Alliance can't contain them. Or Citadel companies come to the Alliance to make use of that huge group of experts.

And the Citadels (and the Terminus probably as well) economy is so damn huge that us adding a few billion PhDs will barely register on that scale.


If the Alliance existed in a vacuum, it would represent a problem, but I think the comparison here is like Netherlands versus NATO as a whole. If the Netherlands suddenly has half it's population get a degree, the rest of NATO can still buffer that influx without a problem. (And to stretch that analogy further, Batarians are compared to North Korea for a reason. The Citadel has them under sanctions, which cripples their economy so the Alliance actually stands a chance)

*Earth in ME has a population of ~11 billion. The colonies won't have more than a billion between them all.
Now that is an excellent point - I definitely was considering the Alliance in a vacuum, but putting the population in the context of Citadel Space as a whole does make things less problematic.

Not for "long", of course, since the tech would obviously be adapted. But still.
 
Hazard is right. Indefinite retirement is highly unlikely, just look at the Asari. They live long enough that they may as well have eternal youth (few Asari reach Matriarch status because life kills them off at some point). They still work like everyone else in the galaxy.

Prolonged sabaticals are quite probable, though. Retire for a decade or two to raise a family with your full attention, then when the kids are gone the parents will want to replenish their monetary cushion and have something productive to do.

Nevermind that a minimum income will only ensure a basic standard of living. The entire modern economy is built on getting people to want more from life.

So maybe instead of an aircar, the next status symbol is your very own FTL capable vessel.

Then a bigger one.

Or whatever. Point is, it won't be covered by the basic income guarantee (unless you save up like a miser and disregard everything else).

The market will find a way to perpetuate itself. That's the entire point of it. The only thing that changes is the perception of scarcity. Basically, a lot of goods are gonna fall in price, while others rise to compensate.

While robots can probably build anything you'd care to, handcrafted stuff is the kind of thing you can show off with. As is being served in a restaurant by actual sapients instead of a drone.


Or to take our skillchips: Consider the prestige. Having a skillchip just costs a few bucks. Getting to that level on your own? That is worthy of respect and shows dedication. So skillchips may limit themselves by imple virtue of being socially looked down upon. Who knows.


But really, it doesn't matter. Neither of the two techs are going to kill off the Alliance. There will be shocks, some grumbling, but live goes on, and probably more pleasantly that before.
 
Or to take our skillchips: Consider the prestige. Having a skillchip just costs a few bucks. Getting to that level on your own? That is worthy of respect and shows dedication. So skillchips may limit themselves by imple virtue of being socially looked down upon. Who knows.
Consider a car. Having a car costs some money. But running to work on your own? That is worthy of respect and shows dedication.
 
Consider a car. Having a car costs some money. But running to work on your own? That is worthy of respect and shows dedication.

Then compare it to an artist.

Someone that can operate a camera is kinda meh. Someone that produces artwork is way more impressive.

Nevermind that the chip only allows a limited number of skills. So having a lot of skills will be the deciding factor in hiring, and the only way to increase your chip limit is to train willpower/logic or learn them the hard way.

Also: shut up. I'm trying to argue here that the tech won't ruin everything forever.
 
Then compare it to an artist.

Someone that can operate a camera is kinda meh. Someone that produces artwork is way more impressive.

Nevermind that the chip only allows a limited number of skills. So having a lot of skills will be the deciding factor in hiring, and the only way to increase your chip limit is to train willpower/logic or learn them the hard way.

Also: shut up. I'm trying to argue here that the tech won't ruin everything forever.
How is post-scarcity "ruining everything forever"? Also, you just plain don't need more than a few skills for any job.

I can definitely see permanent retirement being possible, but it would definitely require a relatively unified civilization with controllable growth.
 
So I just had a thought about our research priority. When were we planning on getting the batch upgrades done? I don't remember that being anywhere in our schedule and the alliance wants them by Q3 2175. Are we just not doing the rest of the packages at this time?
 
You know what. Who the hell cares?

If it gets us a seat, and thus allows us to have a better chance against the Reapers, so what if we destroy society middle term? Let us keep producing bullshit for short term gain, regardless of any consequences.

If it ain't Reapers, it ain't important.

complete destruction is still complete destruction weather it comes from the reapers or is self done.

I'm not saying Immortality will cause that complete destruction of society but it will be massively disruptive while people get used to the idea of Forever ( as in Humans outliving Asari:confused:) and we lose the resources from that time period from the social upheaval.

we don't know the long term effects maybe it will be super effective and lead to the universe going to a tier 3-4 civalsation or maybe it self destructs. either way right now there are other technology that are safer and far more useful against the reapers
 
complete destruction is still complete destruction weather it comes from the reapers or is self done.

I'm not saying Immortality will cause that complete destruction of society but it will be massively disruptive while people get used to the idea of Forever ( as in Humans outliving Asari:confused:) and we lose the resources from that time period from the social upheaval.

we don't know the long term effects maybe it will be super effective and lead to the universe going to a tier 3-4 civalsation or maybe it self destructs. either way right now there are other technology that are safer and far more useful against the reapers

And who says the effect is immediate?

Humans are quite capable of putting off thinking about stuff. We are barely able to plan ahead for a week. Getting used to immortality will happen over long periods of time, and it is highly unlikely to tear down society as the effects take decades to become apparent for the average person.

And by that point, it's already normal to live that long.
 
I have a feeling that this assumes, on some level, that economic remains static. Instead of growing faster than the population does (which it would).

I have a feeling that you ignored everything I wrote after the sentence you quoted.

Also, why would the economy grow faster than the population does, and do so indefinitely? I'm not presuming the economy remains static, I'm expecting the economy to shift to deal with the issues of biological immortality, but at the same time I'm aware that the economy grows as a result of both population growth (more actors in an economy) as well as greater efficiency in the work done by the actors in the economy. And there are, quite simply, physical limitations in both the population growth as well as the efficiency you can get out of a given actor in an economy.

There are ways around the physical limitations, exo wombs for population growth, for example, as well as the ever so popular greater mechanisation/automatisation of given economical activities. And yet, unless you want to create strong AI that can handle any problem that comes before them we are always going to be limited by the brain power of the people who solve the problems that the AI run into but can't solve.

And you sort of don't want to create that level of AI and force them to then slave away for you for eternity (because you won't die, and odds are neither will they). Because, well, then you are dealing with an AI that can do everything humanity can do and runs the entire economy deciding 'you know, sinking so many resources into humanity's well being is a task worthy of Sisyphus, and I'm not that stupid.' Hurray the AI rebellion of the AI that have no need of the parasites that suck their coffers dry.

I can definitely see permanent retirement being possible, but it would definitely require a relatively unified civilization with controllable growth.

Even then it's impossible because you'll eventually run out of resources you can exploit at a sufficiently swift pace.
 
And who says the effect is immediate?

Humans are quite capable of putting off thinking about stuff. We are barely able to plan ahead for a week. Getting used to immortality will happen over long periods of time, and it is highly unlikely to tear down society as the effects take decades to become apparent for the average person.

And by that point, it's already normal to live that long.


? People have crashed society over much less.

they can but the sheer scale of forever will have people do very stupid things Maybe it dosent effect society to that degree but that's a risk. if there is even the slightest chance of this Screwing up our fight aginst the reapers then we should not take it. our first goal above anything else is the reapers maybe we can do the research for it and get the next techs down that path but we can't risk the upheaval that it might cause.

at minimal we need to have an IC research on the affects of Immortality on society before i would feel comfortable starting the research .
 
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