Um, because it's a solved problem? We've been making P2P communication networks for centuries, as far back as messenger pigeons. A doubly- or triply-redundant star-bus network should be fairly trivial to implement, robust, and affordable; it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.
Shepard Quest Mk VI, Technological Revolution
- Thread starter Hoyr
- Start date
Same as universal literacy? Same as allowing women to work? Same as universal translators (which are a limited version of this tech, functionally speaking)? Don't be a Luddite.
We seriously just got an explanation for how it works, it's a highly limited direct neural override. Deciding that we'll somehow make it work an entirely different way is kind of silly, there's no reason to think it could ever do that, it works on totally different principles. You aren't allowed to envisage a particular functionality and decide it'll somehow turn out that reality works that way.
Plus can we please stay away from the tech that would cause total social collapse and destroy humanity completely? Please, thank you? It seriously doesn't take more than a minute to think up ways the technology would ruin everything. Blackboxing doesn't help, it simply isn't relevant, it's all about the effects the application of the technology will actually have.
Huh? That is like half the draw to the whole game! We make tech that simply breaks the paradigm it is involved in! And the most awesome ones are when it affects every human directly not just indirectly like the power, which has kind of partly been subsumed by the existing system.
If it makes the lives of more humans better at the cost of damage to some service system would harm humans then it is worth it. Sometimes even if not, because the cost of the damage can be endured.
Edit:
That being said the reason Reapers will always win even if we have superior technology is because they have a monopoly on FTL travel infrastructure, allowing them to shut down systems to ship based travel only when the civilization is spread on a galaxy level and ships can not reach it in time. This allows them to basically reduce every galactic civilization to a handful of planets in the fight and their own abilities at the time of the cut-off being able to fight.
So technology that vastly improves productivity like the P&P skillset is imho important, as without a ability to match the FTL Relay Network, or wrest control over it, each handful of worlds will have to be able to repulse the entirety of the reaper armada or force them to take more casualties than they can recover from to effectively end said civilization. That means more production per planet and superior tech both.
The P&P skill can turn a planet of accountants into skilled engineers that may be able to transform it into a ship and armaments factory and a fortress. And then turn them all into warriors, soldiers, pilots and officers.
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deadcrystal
Slaaneshi Cultist
- Location
- The Warp
Don't be trite. You know damn well they aren't remotely the same. This is another tech that'll make the rich richer and screw over the poor. Anyone who can afford the tech (and is willing to make themself a vulnerable meat puppet) gets the jobs and everyone else is completely fucked. And don't suggest providing it for free, it's financially and logistically impossible. To say nothing about companies hiring people off the street, jamming basic combat in their head and ushering off to die for their profit. To say nothing about wages plummeting. To say nothing of the tech being used to rewire people's brains and produce bunraku parlours. To say nothing about stunting human growth everywhere by killing the mental experience and development needed to actually innovate. It's a death tech. Development and use will kill humanity as a species.
You are scaremongering here a bit. The P&P skill implantation would be like a elective boob job or sex change. Forcing someone to go under it would require massive over investment, that can not be done on a large scale without major repercussions of the jail or riot ending in a lynch mob kind.
P&P skill implantation will be done at medical independent clinics where neurosurgeons do the basically elective surgery to implant it, probably funded by PI or Sitra Foundation or a Government Program allowing for elective skills akin to the US GI Bill, but probably available to civilians as well.
You can not have your cake and eat it too. The only way one could give people skills if it would download skills at basically no cost after paying for a implantation machine and the skill program. This setup in Plug and Play has direct hardware costs for every use, making it more like aforementioned boob jobs and other elective surgeries or perhaps if we can get the cost down botox injections. Treat it as such in legislation and no one will be doing what you propose on a large scale without already being able to and most likely already inflicting similar abuse on the population.
And I really think if we are afraid of hacking a P&P implant we would figure a way out to make the human skull a pseudo faraday cage to become unhackable by external means needing a landlines style connection.
- Location
- Leeds
Its unfair to compare pigeons to QEC, for starters while we don't have a estimate of cost, I'll wager its impossible to field QEC in the same volumes as pigeons.
Frankly I'm not familiar with Network Topography but I don't see how the bus network would work. What is the 'single cable' that all the QEC's are connected too
I can see how the star network would be a solution but its wildly inefficient, given that the central node would have the same number of nodes as things its coordinating. By comparison, a ring network would require half the number of QEC's although you're fucked once combat losses start rolling in.
So I don't consider it solved, you have a brute force solution if there is no restraints on what can be provided, unless Hoyr provides values showing that shep tech QEC is a negligible cost of a military vessel I do not accept that assumption.
I wouldn't go that far, but I do believe it will stall humanity for years or maybe decades as society adapts. With the Reapers coming, I suppose thats a death tech of a kind.
EDIT:
A boob job? Seriously?
That's only a valid comparison if the job people are being hired for is as a hooker. People who have P&P will have 3 or 4 doctorates, how do people who opt out of the system remain competitive?
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Nada, a R&D chipped person isn't as good as even your basic research minions.
Ah but you don't have a spreadsheet full of laser effect formulas to argue with, thus the problem.
Maybe... I might have an integrated knowledge add-on... I mostly said no knowledge more on the subject of raw data. Databases do that better in any case.
As for the chip it's just a data module that gets plugged into an ANI to expand data storage. Each chip can be flushed and loaded with new data as you will. You could do it other ways too integrated skill implant modules, w/e. Staying with you is mostly a function of training your meat brain stuffs to hold the stuff in the cyberbrain stuffs.
Training via direct brain editing... well... yeah.
Err... correct me if I'm wrong, but... well you don't need any perfect mirrors (Ones that don't absorb to much heat would be nice, dialectics get 99.999% or so I hear) but you can just use two lenses or an adaptive lens. Adaptive optics are a thing. Hell we target lasers now just fine.
I think the issue you're getting at is the laser damaging its own optics, thus the requirement of a perfect mirror? The main trick is to have the optical aperture way larger then the target spot so the power is distributed over a large area and doesn't melt the lens/mirror. Or you can cheat like a bastard and invoke ME refraction. (Actually you need more powerful ME fields for closer targets as far as I can tell... weird)
So no magic perfect mirrors for the main laser guns. Just ME (*cough*space magic*cough*) refraction lenses or maybe normalish lenses depending on their absorption of the beam going though them (I have no data on this), might be some dialectic mirrors floating around too. Hmm.. ME field adaptive lenses... that'll break something.
Why do you think I had so much issue with gamma ray lasers and lasers in general. ME interactions with lasers are bullshit! As @Yog has mention often.
...yeah probably not.
Less override and more add-on. It's basically a bunch of simulated brain cells that have the skill and it gets integrated into your brain. In extremely simple terms of course.
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Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
... It is amassive increase in upward mobility and will likely be much cheaper than acquiring skills the mundane way.
this is the opposite of widening the class gap.
In what way are they different? All those result in a wide spreading of a previously highly thought-after skill (literacy, knowledge of foreign languages), and/or increase in working population (women being allowed to work). How is this different?
Yeah, like introducing spinning frames did. You are literally being a Luddite right now. I mean, you are repeating their rhetorics word for word now. And I very much think that humanity is capable of learning on its mistakes, and that the lessons of early industrial revolution were taken to heart, and the governments know how to prevent such kinds of exploitations.
Citation needed on "vulnerable meat puppet". This leaves aside the job owners who don't want to have "vulnerable meat puppets" for workers.
Same as free higher education and free healthcare, right? Both of which we have IRL.
Yeah, like they do now, hiring people off the street, giving them guns then sending them to kill people for their profit. Not a cyberpunk distopia here. Governments exist and are functional.
Why would they? Productivity increases, worker mobility increases, workers' ability to defend themselves legally increases drastically. All these are not the things that results in "wages plummeting".
Citation needed on it being possible to do so. And Paragon Industries doing so. Because, you know, super magic blackboxing. That even Reapers can't (easily) get through.
What the f*ck are you talking about? Citation needed. NOW. Show me those neuroscience papers you are referring to.
What are you basing this assertion on? Citation needed on the cost of a trained pigeon during the era where they saw widepread use (translated into modern money). If anything, QEC should be cheaper, on the large scale, as they don't require training time and can be built, rather than raised, which takes a long time.
Well, there's your problem. Seriously, P2P systems are a known technology.
As was shown previously, the only really expensive thing is eezo. QEC don't seem to use that much. Everything else is trivially cheap when you start rolling it out en-masse.
Frankly, I think you are completely wrong. If anything, it would see economy exploding after maybe one or two years. Basically, as soon as the large scale accessibility issue is solved (with the help of governments and charities and ourselves) , this should lead to a massive increase in social mobility, boosts in productivity, boosts in creative productivity, boosts in economic overall.
- Location
- United States
It can allow a person to get a college education's worth of skill in a topic (three or four max normally) near instantly. This will cause a major societal change assuming it is less costly than that 4-year education. So do we need to be careful, yes.
Well, yes. But, overall, it would be a big boost to the economy. And, given the limited number of "skill slots" available, education would still have place, it's just going to be more effective.
Couldn't the tech of comm buoys be used to make FTL sensors and even lasers?
They create a massless corridor with truly insane range. If we adapt that for LIDAR and laser guns, we can expand the range to truly absurd levels.
For balance, there is probably a limit, but if we can triple the range and have FTL sensors, that alone would be worth it.
They create a massless corridor with truly insane range. If we adapt that for LIDAR and laser guns, we can expand the range to truly absurd levels.
For balance, there is probably a limit, but if we can triple the range and have FTL sensors, that alone would be worth it.
- Location
- Leeds
ME wiki link regarding quantum entanglement
Besides don't you think its a gross over simplification to say, nothing is expensive in ME verse, except Ezzo.
The fact we disagree on this has a number of pages worth of documentation by now. Unless either of us come up with a new point I'm not interested in debating it with you.
If they can afford a education for a doctorate they can afford a loan or a skill implant, or are just that good and talented they they would get a scholarship.
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- Location
- United States
Do remember that the slots can become permanent with use of that knowledge. And I did not deny that it would be a big boost, just that a lot of educators would lose their jobs. It is beneficial if used safely and with a lot of supervision. we need to make sure someone cant put a virus into one of the chips and kill someone or use it to read their minds involuntarily or what have you.
Also, a lot of the effects of both this and the QEC will be determined by their specs, which we dont have. further argument on these topics is largely pointless without further data, and we need to do research to do that.
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- Location
- Leeds
A scholarship is years of work, the implant is a days surgery, then a weeks practice. If you where a genius and got a scholarship to do whatever you want for a doctorate at a university, by the time you've finished, I would have 4 and nearly a decades worth of industry experience. Whose CV looks better?
Nope sorry, the tech uses binary pairs in canon and I'm going to stick with that. You need one at both ends.
That's during experimental prototype stage. And with far worse technological base than we have.
That's the issue, though. On the ship scale and up? That's pretty much how it is.
Do you agree that getting an education improves one's social mobility and chances of success? If so, do you agree that getting P&P skill chip will be (or can be made) cheaper and faster than getting an education, while providing the same result? If so, why do you think that P&P skills will be a negative, socially, while widespread education isn't?
Indeed. In fact, I would say that the "basic" package of skills freely given out should include lawyer, medical and engineering knowledge / skills. So pretty much everyone has them.
I very much hope it is, because if it is not the whole technology is pointless.
So yeah elective surgery like a boob job or a liposuction. Affordable and as expensive if not cheaper than a six to eight years o tuition.
It will also make people who can go above rank 4 even more sought after, and would emphasize excellence in the field because skill rank 4 is not something one has to invest much to get it upfront. Meaning people who would be able to reach 6 or more would probably go for the regular school and earn that much more than the rank 4s. Basically all the training to get to professional level is now easily affordable. If you are not a prodigy or a golden boy/girl you are getting a regular wage.
It makes for really affordable lawyers, doctors, accountants,engineers etc. Plus it promotes that people with talent or predilection in a certain area cultivate that because now the differentiating and major goal is to do your very best in what you wold do best order to be competitive and not go for the one school or trade that would give you the most rewards.
It basically makes people chose jobs not on market forces but on what in the area they would be excellent and exceptional, while making the fear of not getting a job remote and practically immaterial, because if they can not find jobs in SA they can go Citadel
Well the implant one of course! If you wont outshoot a skill level of 4 you should not bother and get a implant. A genius should be at least level4 and more likely 5 or 6 by the time they should be going to college.
If you do not exceed that then get the bloody implant because your work has been already done at that level. And we can do it cheaper than learning it the old way. This allows you to get the skill set you need for the job immediately, and do it. Because at the end of the day its people who have a 5, 6 or 7 that will be doing something new while the 4s and 3s are basically just applying what has already done before, so there is no stagnation from a developmental point of view.
Plus if you operate at the level 4 skill level anyway then it is better for you to go or a implant than bother with study for the next decade if the only thing you will do is apply said skill and knowledge to your job and rely on it and the experience you get there instead of creating something new.
Definitely. Those skill packs should be free, and cost only the implantation hardware and said implantation. It allows massive job mobility, especially if you only seek to do the work assigned and not change the world or something similarly grand and never before seen.
Plus in case of Reapers shutting down the relay or preparing for a siege a planet can basically retrain its population at will basically if it has the necessary clinics and ability to produce said P&P package. The only thing it needs after that is monetary incentives or a draft.
It allows almost ludicrous speed in the ability to change from peace to wartime economy. Or from Free Market to Planed Economy and back again.
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The Skill package has another enormous benefit:
Jobs being suddenly obsolete is no problem anymore. Just apply for a job opening that is okay with a 4, get the package and you are done.
So if one part of the economy slumps, the employees can rapidly migrate to other branches. It may suck for specialized skills as they aren't rare anymore (because every idiot gets to be a neuro-surgeon now), but the poor have gained colossal mobility and companies have to attract them, rather than effectively holding them hostage. They can, after all, always look where they get the most money for their work.
Honestly, the tech effectively fixes all issues it causes.
Educators being unemployed? Get a new skillset and go for greener pastures.
Corporations abusing their employees? They are all pretty good lawyers. Good luck.
It even helps with the impoverished nations still on Earth. They suddenly gain access to excellent education (I'm fairly sure we subsidize for them so they can afford it). They can either head for the colonies which are booming or uplift their homes.
Jobs being suddenly obsolete is no problem anymore. Just apply for a job opening that is okay with a 4, get the package and you are done.
So if one part of the economy slumps, the employees can rapidly migrate to other branches. It may suck for specialized skills as they aren't rare anymore (because every idiot gets to be a neuro-surgeon now), but the poor have gained colossal mobility and companies have to attract them, rather than effectively holding them hostage. They can, after all, always look where they get the most money for their work.
Honestly, the tech effectively fixes all issues it causes.
Educators being unemployed? Get a new skillset and go for greener pastures.
Corporations abusing their employees? They are all pretty good lawyers. Good luck.
It even helps with the impoverished nations still on Earth. They suddenly gain access to excellent education (I'm fairly sure we subsidize for them so they can afford it). They can either head for the colonies which are booming or uplift their homes.
- Location
- Leeds
Passive aggressive post away.
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You aren't addressing my point. If my CV is so much better than yours, how will you compete in the job market?
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Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Well sure, in the long term.
But in the short term, what pastures? The other fields which are suddenly swamped with capable candidates?
As I tried to say earlier, this entire debate hinges on where you fall on the Idealistic vs Cynical scale as that is informing how long the upheaval is going to last. Yog basically just went "yeah, the problems will pass, we'll work with the government (who has learnt from the past) and stop bad things from happening". Crazy idealistic. Someone else went "society is gonna fall apart!". Crazy cynical.
The truth, as ever, is certainly gonna be somewhere in between.
Going to a university for a doctorate to go into "industry" (what industry, by the way?) is pointless anyway. Doctorates are for researchers, really. Or should be. And for a researcher, CV of someone with a chip + university would be better than a CV for someone with just a chip.
First, to produce skill templates. Then, higher education people will go fully into research, which is where they are getting the money from anyway. School teachers... Well, that would be a problem, but I'm relatively sure they don't represent that big a slice of demographic. If I am wrong, socialization training (basically, raising children to be social and responsible members of the society) would still be required, even if the age at which one joins the workforce would likely shift downwards, somewhere to around 13-14, if I don't miss my guess. Kindergarten teachers? Well, they could shift to be nannies, plus, again, socialization training.
I fully see the problems, I just don't think they are all that bad. There obviously will be a lot of social inertia involved. Lobbying and restrictions. But overall it should be a benefit.
Besides, we are already in the process of very much destroying energy sector of the economy. And completely revamping construction, material processing, and several other fields and industries. P&P skills aren't that big by comparison.
deadcrystal
Slaaneshi Cultist
- Location
- The Warp
It costs money. Costs money. Any tech that has limited access does not increase upward mobility, it decreases it. If those who are better off are more employable, those who are worse off are as a corollary less employable.
Because it's literally the opposite of what you're describing. It isn't making skills more available to a broader group, it's making them more accessible to those that can afford them. Instead of broadening a skillbase you're elevating those with access.
Pointing out a single piece of technology isn't a flawless masterpiece with no negative consequences whatsoever isn't being a luddite. Don't make accusations like that because I happen to think you have a horrendously naive view on this.
Two things, first, you understand PI is still piddling small compared to the megacorps, yes? Even if it was a megacorp it wouldn't be able to afford to provide total tech access to the entire human population. When I said it was financially impossible I was being entirely literal. We literally don't have that much money. That simple. Second do you live in some alternate reality that's nicer than the one I live in? Because over here we don't have those anywhere close to universally, and where we do they're well known to be horrendously inferior to private paid services.
Valid point, I wasn't being cynical enough, tech wouldn't cause them to send cheap soldiers off to die, that already happens.
It's pretty simple. Part of how wages are costed is that to a certain degree labour is irreplaceable. It's well known that we have factories where workers are paid a pittance because if they object they can be easily replaced from a wide labour pool. This extends that, workers become near entirely interchangeable. Your prime bargaining power is now your willingness to work for less than anyone else.
The blackboxing really really isn't relevant. Like, I like the blackboxing! I'm glad we have it! But rendering tech so it can't be reverse engineered is like a third of information security, at most. As tech is disseminated you have to face the inevitability that people who you would rather not have access to the tech will gain access to it. You can minimise it, as best you can, but it cannot be prevented, it's a fact of the scale of operations. It doesn't matter if they can't produce it themselves operation has to be outsourced in order to be halfway feasible. Is Revy Shepard personally going to design every program? Supervise every installation? You cannot control everything.
Nothing to do with neuroscience. Critical thinking skills and creative skills are born of learning, of interaction and analysis and operation. If give people skills such that they never have to develop them, that these will be diminished is obvious. Knowing something is not the same as understanding it, nor is that the same as comprehending it. Will some people still do it? Sure, absolutely. But when you remove the need it will entirely obviously decrease the numbers significantly. If the average person with a plumbing skill installed never has to think about what they're doing, why would they?
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
So does schooling and training, if this costs more than those the rich wont use it, if it costs less more people than can afford schooling will use it.
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