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Shepard Quest Mk V, Base of Operations (ME/MCU)

I don't really care what we research next. I just think the our Shepard should be concerned the possibility of our stuff being used against us.

So before we start making unobtainium frigates that are as powerful as a cruiser we should be sure that other people can't steal the design.

So my vote will always half the dice on flawless blackboxing.
 
I'd suggest we just make Flawless Blackboxing our designated overflow every turn until we start getting into the really big, "don't want anyone making any of these ever" technologies like dreadnoughts and transforming mecha and repulsor cannons and the like.
 
It isn't worth half our research, but if we guarantee a couple techs per turn and stick the rest+overflow in blackboxing we should make good progress before it's time to research the awesome stuff.
 
Van Ropen said:
It isn't worth half our research, but if we guarantee a couple techs per turn and stick the rest+overflow in blackboxing we should make good progress before it's time to research the awesome stuff.
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Not really, Going Full Tilt when the new lab and basic research goes on line gives us 210d10+310 for an average of 1465 Research/Q which means barring good or bad luck it will take 3 Quarters to research.

If we toss 2D10+60 at it per turn (2 teams and most of Basic Research) it would take on average another 3 Quarters to get to the point of requiring only 2 Quarters Full Tilt Research to complete. Again by averages.

The other two reasons I think it's important we is we might yet get something that can be reverse engineered or studied from the good doctor's research and second if people can't understand our code how much harder does it become to hack or disable?

Though I agree it's not an insignificant investment which is why if I generate any Omake credit I'll be sending it that way to make it a more palatable option.
 
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So if we get super alloys this coming vote, and put the rest into blackboxing, we can have it done it two full tilt votes. Good to know.
 
Yog said:
If we are to expand, we need information security before anything else. This means QE comms.
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While I agree (mostly because no signal to say we are communicating) I think that Flawless Blackboxing algorithms and cyphers will likely be applicable to communications to since if they can protect software then they can do the same to a datapacket.
 
Madfish said:
While I agree (mostly because no signal to say we are communicating) I think that Flawless Blackboxing algorithms and cyphers will likely be applicable to communications to since if they can protect software then they can do the same to a datapacket.
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QE goes beyond blackboxing, is more useful in general, can be distributed widely both netting us lots of profit and making galactic communications more secure and fast, thus throwing Reapers off their game (because even in the event of Citadel being taken and mass relays being shut down, QE comms will still work).
 
Getting the last bit of blackboxing is nice, but I think at this point we're already fairly good in that regard. I don't mind if we consistently make it the Overflow-option, but the main focus from now on should be on developing new technologies, in my opinion.
 
Agreed. With the tier 3 Blackboxing it'll take people forever to unlock anything we sell on the galactic market.
 
Did Espilon ever okay the other tech tree suggested earlier/give us a price tag on QE tech?

Because I like what Madfish suggested - three turns developing new tech with a minor background investment in the blackboxing (during which we grab the important stuff - superalloys, QE communicators, maybe the Mk. II suit finally) then just go full burn for two quarters and polish it off.

Hell, if we start construction on Elysium next turn, our research fascilities will come online when that splurge starts - we could finish it in one quarter, or better yet just invest what our old maximum was, and use the other half for new tech.

Derek58 said:
Agreed. With the tier 3 Blackboxing it'll take people forever to unlock anything we sell on the galactic market.
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No, it will take the government agencies a couple years at the most - it's the corporations who are locked out.

Alanek2002 said:
But with flawless, we can monopolize Handheld lasers. Which bypass kinetic barriers.
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Surely there is someone in citadel space capable of miniatuzing lasers given an awesome power source? In any case, I really just want to keep stuff like the future repulsor cannons and AI research out of Cerberus hands.
 
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Van Ropen said:
Because I like what Madfish suggested - three turns developing new tech with a minor background investment in the blackboxing (during which we grab the important stuff - superalloys, QE communicators, maybe the Mk. II suit finally) then just go full burn for two quarters and polish it off.
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There are two important things that need to be done soon after finishing frigates, or, really, together with them, so they are integrated into frigates from the get go. First is capital scale laser weaponry, stupidly effective against normal mass effect ships if it can be made long-range, and second is laser shielding which is also perfect stealth in space. It shifts the paradigm. It forces everyone and their grandmother to develop long-range non-EM sensors; something not normally used at all by ME races. It needs to be done together, as a sword and a shield. And it needs to be done before we show the frigates to alliance, I think, so they are as revolutionary as possible.
 
Yog said:
There are two important things that need to be done soon after finishing frigates, or, really, together with them, so they are integrated into frigates from the get go. First is capital scale laser weaponry, stupidly effective against normal mass effect ships if it can be made long-range, and second is laser shielding which is also perfect stealth in space.
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Doesn't the first already exist? The tech is there, it was always just prohibitively expensive to use because of the power requirements/maintenance necessary. The Arc Reactor and Superalloys should take care of it.

Guess we should wait to see if we can get a research hero with shielding this turn. Did Espilon okay your proposed suggestion for that stealth system? Last time I think there was some discussion if the overlapping fields were possible...they should be. Still, given three turns removing only 20d10+60 for blackboxing we should have no trouble getting all of those asap - almost definitely within two turns, certainly within the three.
 
Van Ropen said:
Doesn't the first already exist? The tech is there, it was always just prohibitively expensive to use because of the power requirements/maintenance necessary. The Arc Reactor and Superalloys should take care of it.
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Not sure. We don't have even a gigajoule lasers researched.
Van Ropen said:
Guess we should wait to see if we can get a research hero with shielding this turn. Did Espilon okay your proposed suggestion for that stealth system? Last time I think there was some discussion if the overlapping fields were possible...they should be. Still, given three turns removing only 20d10+60 for blackboxing we should have no trouble getting all of those asap - almost definitely within two turns, certainly within the three.
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Yeah, he did:
Esbilon said:
Regarding Yog's anti-radiation shield/stealth device, the theory is sound, and something that could well be included in the game. It also puts a dampener on the sheer, retarded effectiveness of lasers, and I can't say I'm opposed to that.

That said, building it is a very, very difficult engineering problem. You need to have two different mass effect fields projected outside the ship, with an area without an ME field in it in between. Since it is my distinct impression that ME fields are formed around a lump of Eezo, I have trouble seeing a way of accomplishing this without physically having some Eezo around the ship, which could then be attacked by hostile lasers.
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The way I see it, to completely blow away the minds of Alliance brass, our ship design needs:

1) QE comms. This way the ship is always in communication with command, those communications can't be detected, intercepted or spoofed.

2) Gigajoule lasers that make normal kinetic barriers irrelevant and laser shielding that protects the ships from enemy lasers (if they close into knife-fighting range or develop analogues to alliance lasers)

3) Perfect stealth in space (also a small number of QE-equipped sensor drones to drop out of the shield to maintain sensors even when cloaked). That completely changes the face of warfare. It allows for long-term covert missions. For infiltrations and MAD scenarios.

Those are qualitative things that change the face of warfare. Other stuff (super alloys, arc reactors and such) change it quantitatively (though arc reactors are quantity that becomes quality, and the lack of logistics trail / need for refuel is qualitative change), if greatly. But those three are qualitative changes that make previous designs completely obsolete.
 
Van Ropen said:
Hell, if we start construction on Elysium next turn, our research fascilities will come online when that splurge starts - we could finish it in one quarter, or better yet just invest what our old maximum was, and use the other half for new tech.
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While I'm very much for striking when the iron's hot I think I do agree with Yog that we need some method of secure communication before spreading out, whether that's QE, FBb or even a personally designed courier ship with purgable datastores I don't mind but it should be in place from the ground up given the attention we're drawing.

If it wasn't for the fact that Conrad is likely to be in charge of research over there (for all Conrad's faults lack of loyalty isn't one of them) I'd advocate only using the off-Midoir labs for low security research such as the Alloys which we can't really blackbox beyond the manufacturing process.

Yog said:
It shifts the paradigm. It forces everyone and their grandmother to develop long-range non-EM sensors; something not normally used at all by ME races. It needs to be done together, as a sword and a shield. And it needs to be done before we show the frigates to alliance, I think, so they are as revolutionary as possible.
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That's a good point. Also if we can get them revolutionary enough and impress them enough with them we can perhaps get them to give up their current larger ship classes' designs to us cutting our research time down dramatically and allowing the SA to get better quality ships into service now so any problems can be ironed out and any changes needed enacted.

At the moment any ship we build will have a definitive edge in;
  • Endurance (combat and deployment) from our reactors and repulsors removing fuel concerns and massively reducing those for heat.
  • Crew Reaction time from our VI Technology and Neural interfaces
Super Alloys is plural so there's a good chance there will be ones suitable for improved laser construction as well as heat dispersion in addition to armour and structural alloys. Similarly if some of those Alloys are better insulators then that's longer the Drive Core(s) can operate before forced discharge becomes a risk.

Similarly if the Alternating Core idea works then that gives effectively unlimited FTL endurance even if the ship needs to drop from FTL to swap cores. Fuel issues that would make that a concern are nulled by the combination of Arc reactor and Repulsor.
 
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Madfish said:
That's a good point. Also if we can get them revolutionary enough and impress them enough with them we can perhaps get them to give up their current larger ship classes' designs to us cutting our research time down dramatically and allowing the SA to get better quality ships into service now so any problems can be ironed out and any changes needed enacted
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I think that if we show them the ship with all the stuff I proposed in it (even with no alternating core system giving it unlimited travel time)... We are going to get basically all the naval research and development budget, and quite possibly all the government researchers assigned to us. Well, I mean alliance; have to stop referring to them as the government, since there are still governments on Earth.

Because, really, until a counter to stealth is invented? Those ships are basically invincible and, with arc reactors, can punch way above their weight class.
Madfish said:
Similarly if the Alternating Core idea works then that gives effectively unlimited FTL endurance even if the ship needs to drop from FTL to swap cores. Fuel issues that would make that a concern are nulled by the combination of Arc reactor and Repulsor.
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Yeah, good point. Despite proposing it, I forgot about it. If it does give unlimited endurance, then it basically opens even a bigger can of worms, especially with perfect stealth in space (that can be maintained if FTL).
 
Yog said:
Not sure. We don't have even a gigajoule lasers researched.

Yeah, he did:


The way I see it, to completely blow away the minds of Alliance brass, our ship design needs:

1) QE comms. This way the ship is always in communication with command, those communications can't be detected, intercepted or spoofed.

2) Gigajoule lasers that make normal kinetic barriers irrelevant and laser shielding that protects the ships from enemy lasers (if they close into knife-fighting range or develop analogues to alliance lasers)

3) Perfect stealth in space (also a small number of QE-equipped sensor drones to drop out of the shield to maintain sensors even when cloaked). That completely changes the face of warfare. It allows for long-term covert missions. For infiltrations and MAD scenarios.

Those are qualitative things that change the face of warfare. Other stuff (super alloys, arc reactors and such) change it quantitatively (though arc reactors are quantity that becomes quality, and the lack of logistics trail / need for refuel is qualitative change), if greatly. But those three are qualitative changes that make previous designs completely obsolete.
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Why are gigajoule lasers necessary? The current ones work just fine, even on the capital ship scale - it was only range that was an issue, solved with power generation and material science...and these are frigates after all.

Shielding is in then, awesome.

QE Comms would be nice, but I doubt they are going to happen. We need way more research than the basic tech - because even that is only single point-to-point, and prohibitively expensive. Even if us researching them make the tech considerably cheaper, I'm not sure they will pay to stick it on every ship. Then again, it is a huge strategic advantage...

Moot point overall - I figured we were grabbing it anyways for secure communication between research labs, so tt will be available to stick on the ships if the Alliance is willing.
 
Van Ropen said:
Why are gigajoule lasers necessary? The current ones work just fine, even on the capital ship scale - it was only range that was an issue, solved with power generation and material science...and these are frigates after all.
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Range is an issue because the beam becomes wider and the intensity drops with distance. Meaning that to make lasers a long-range weapon, we'd need to up their power. Meaning, gigawatt lasers.
Shielding is in then, awesome.
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Hope they are.
Van Ropen said:
QE Comms would be nice, but I doubt they are going to happen. We need way more research than the basic tech - because even that is only single point-to-point, and prohibitively expensive. Even if us researching them make the tech considerably cheaper, I'm not sure they will pay to stick it on every ship. Then again, it is a huge strategic advantage...

Moot point overall - I figured we were grabbing it anyways for secure communication between research labs, so tt will be available to stick on the ships if the Alliance is willing.
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True. It introduces some problems (like not being able to see outside the ship) but those can be solved with cables. Put out sensor drones on long thin cables. Drones and cables are small, they don't radiate much, if any heat and don't compromise stealth. The signal will get garbled when passing through the field, but that's what software for - to reconstruct the message.

Just perfect stealth and lasers (with laser shielding to boot) already represent a tremendous change in how space warfare is to be fought.
 
There already is a slight counter to the stealth: Visual scanners. The cloaked ships would have a slight chance to be spotted every time they went in front of something, right?

And on the subject of research, could we do it something like this:

Turn 1: Super alloys, Flawless blackboxing
Turn 2: Gigajoule lasers, MK II suit, Flawless blackboxing
Turn 3: Re-entry shroud, Light cruisers, Flawless blackboxing
Turn 4: Flawless blackboxing

And so on, until it is finished? That is to say, taking 8-9 hundred points of projects, and the rest into Blackboxing?

We have the projects to do so for a few turns.
 
Gigajoule lasers will be necessary so our frigates can punch above their weight. Remember that current lasers used in GARDIAN have difficulty dealing with small fighters. Even if we solve the heat issues, we need a lot more power for lasers to be an equivalent threat to mass accelerators.

Point to point QE comms is good as a proof of concept. I'm sure we can still wow the Alliance with them, enough to develop multi-point comms.
 
Alanek2002 said:
And so on, until it is finished? That is to say, taking 8-9 hundred points of projects, and the rest into Blackboxing?
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Less into blackboxing. We should have around 1600 research points next turn; putting half of those into blackboxing isn't worth it, and would in my opinion even be detrimental at this point.
What we already have should buy us enoug time that we can simply keep dropping Overflow into it over the next year or two, while we focus on churning out more technologies.
 
Alanek2002 said:
There already is a slight counter to the stealth: Visual scanners. The cloaked ships would have a slight chance to be spotted every time they went in front of something, right?

And on the subject of research, could we do it something like this:

Turn 1: Super alloys, Flawless blackboxing
Turn 2: Gigajoule lasers, MK II suit, Flawless blackboxing
Turn 3: Re-entry shroud, Light cruisers, Flawless blackboxing
Turn 4: Flawless blackboxing

And so on, until it is finished? That is to say, taking 8-9 hundred points of projects, and the rest into Blackboxing?

We have the projects to do so for a few turns.
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First, since MK.II is on the list at the current vote winning, it should go up, we don't really need super alloys right away for it and ship yard isn't even started.

Second, light cruisers is waste of time until we can show people that our ships work. That means building ship yard and then building frigate.

Third, we need miniature lasers for suit also and advanced neural interface for better suit handling.

Four, if we keep most of the stuff for ourself (kinda easy because it take about 1-2 years to get even frigate ready) it shouldn't be impossible to just go with the plan: Overflow to the blackboxing.
 
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