- Location
- Dual citizen of SV&SB
Hey, It worked for cave johnson!
Shepard Quest Mk V, Base of Operations (ME/MCU)
- Thread starter Esbilon
- Start date
Clandistine1
(Verified Spaceship)
- Location
- Toorak, Melbourne
Yeah, but if he failed he could just do another test. Also, Aperture Science economics are magic. Not one valid product for over seventy years.
If we fail, we will be in a bad situation by the time the Reapers arrive.
Regarding Yog's anti-radiation shield/stealth device, the theory is sound, and something that could well be included in the game. It also puts a dampener on the sheer, retarded effectiveness of lasers, and I can't say I'm opposed to that.
That said, building it is a very, very difficult engineering problem. You need to have two different mass effect fields projected outside the ship, with an area without an ME field in it in between. Since it is my distinct impression that ME fields are formed around a lump of Eezo, I have trouble seeing a way of accomplishing this without physically having some Eezo around the ship, which could then be attacked by hostile lasers.
That said, building it is a very, very difficult engineering problem. You need to have two different mass effect fields projected outside the ship, with an area without an ME field in it in between. Since it is my distinct impression that ME fields are formed around a lump of Eezo, I have trouble seeing a way of accomplishing this without physically having some Eezo around the ship, which could then be attacked by hostile lasers.
I suppose you could do it if you had some material that could act as a conductor of sorts for a Mass Effect field to deliver it where you want it to be. Hm, that's how biotics work isn't it? Nodules of Eezo forming in the user's nervous system channeling electrical impulses and ME fields.
That's another possible project, an artificial biotic device. Maybe using a specially designed cybernetic organism made of mostly nervous tissue with some 'macros' pre-programmed into it?
Sustained power no. Pulsed power yes, maybe. The physics are such that at the initial moment some radiation passes through but the reflection coefficient rapidly approaches one soon afterwards, meaning that sustained (continuous) laser is useless. And pulsed fire is still dampened.
Glad to hear it.
Well, the interlayer is only needed to trap heat. It would go like that:
1) SImply activating FTL field: lasers are blocked, no stealth (in fact, more noticeable ship)
2) FIeld on the outside of the ship (in the hull) - stealth and laser blocking, but heat is trapped and accumulates in the ship
3) Double layered system: stealth, laser shielding, heat is trapped outside the ship.
Wouldn't eezo itself be in the epicenter of the field, and thus the most protected? It could be attacked by kinetic weaponry, though. But that's what normal kinetic barriers are for.
You also have to note that kinetic barriers work somehow. They use some sort of emitters, presumably based on eezo, so there has to be a way to shape eezo field and project it far apart from the generator. If nothing else, biotics prove that it's possible, given that singularities can be generated far away from the user, and not inside of the user's body. SO, it's definitely possible, if not eezo (probably requires a complicated eezo node network in the ship).
Comm buoys also presumably project mass effect fields long range (mass relays for thousands of light years, comm buoys for at least light hours).
So, yeah, it's definitely possible.
I can see the construction as a double-layered hull, with vacuum between two layers (as a thermal insulator in addition to everything else). Both layers of the hull are filled with an eezo node network that is used to generate kinetic barriers and laser shields / stealth. The outer layer generates field just outside its surface. At least this is simple solution. Or you can have retractable antennas with eezo nodules along their lengths (for layered fields). When laser shields are needed, antennas appear from inside the hull and generate the fields.
- Location
- Dual citizen of SV&SB
So, KEWs to bring down/destabilize the Stealth field, and then lasers to bypass the normal kinetic barriers?
That is to say, we could balance it by making the stealth field also interdict mass somewhat, and that it'd fail relatively quickly to KEW compared to a Kinetic Barrier (Whether or not a ship could have both is up to Esbilon, though it makes the system better if so.), and then you can use lasers to gut the opposing ships.
That is to say, we could balance it by making the stealth field also interdict mass somewhat, and that it'd fail relatively quickly to KEW compared to a Kinetic Barrier (Whether or not a ship could have both is up to Esbilon, though it makes the system better if so.), and then you can use lasers to gut the opposing ships.
It won't really destabilize or anything. KEW would just pass through it like it isn't there. If you destroy field emitters (if they outside the hull / can be easily destroyed) then the field would obviously fail. But only then. And emitters can probably be protected.
And you have to, you know, find the ship first. Which would be hard on the account of it having a stealth field.
In essence, stealth/antilaser field is a simple, if focused / localized, FTL field. That's all there is to it.
Couldn't they be shells? Otherwise things like the cyclonic barrier would warp a ship's frame. Also I supposes kinetic barriers, those emergency internal barriers seen in ME2 and artificial gravity would be examples of multiple ME fields being used in close proximity.
So I was doing some calcs and stuff last night for a Frigate design however I noticed something off.
If the Normandy SR-2 was a cuboid 200m long, 15m wide and 15m high it would have a volume and surface area of:
V= 200 * 15 * 15 = 45,000m^3
A = 2 * 200 * 15 + 2 * 15 * 15 + 2 * 200 * 15 = 6000 + 450 + 6000 = 12,450m^2
If we assume that half the SR-2's SA are those radiator strips, which considering that they look like tiger stripes is kinda justifiable, that gives it a total radiator surface of 6,225m^2 and if we assume the strips are Carbon with it's sublimation point of 3,915 K and that they are running at 3,800k then the SR-2 can radiate a maximum of:
P = 5.670373*10^-8 * 6,225 * 3,800^4
P = 5.670373*10^-8 * 6,225 * 208,513,600,000,000
P = 5.670373*10^-8 * 1,297,997,160,000,000,000
P = 73,601,280,501W = 73,601,280KW = 73,601MW = 73GW
So even at full black body radiative capacity, which they would almost certainly be below, the SR-2 can only support 73GW of waste heat before it starts to build up excess heat.
If we assume the fusion torch operates at maximum efficiency, 80%, then it could make a maximum power of no more then 365GW
From this and it's exhaust velocity, Atomic Rockets list the exhaust velocity for 3He + 3He fusion as 20,385,887m/s, we can calculate the thrust:
T = 2P/V
T = 2 * 368,006,402,505 / 20,385,887
T = 736,012,805,010 / 20,385,887
T = 36,104 newtons
Even if I use the lower velocity I found on the Atomic Rockets engine list (although that's for 3He + D):
T = 2P/V
T = 2 * 368,006,402,505 / 7,840,000
T = 736,012,805,010 / 7,840,000
T = 93,879 newtons
It's still a quarter of the Falcon 1's thrust.
Even if we assume the SR-2 has the same density as air we get:
m = 45,000 * 1.225 = 55,125kg
Which means that even in the impossibly best case scenario the SR-2 can only manage an acceleration of:
F = ma
93,879 = 55,125 * a
a = 93,879/55,125
a = 1.7m/s
so 17% of a single gee.
Best answers I've came up with:
A) I screwed up the math somewhere (unlikely since I've checked as much as I can)
B) The SR-2 and pretty much all ME ships always have their Eezo cores active dropping the mass to the point where the acceleration is practical.
C) Bioware writers lack a deep enough understanding of how space travel works to actually account for these details. And they wouldn't try even if they did know.
If the Normandy SR-2 was a cuboid 200m long, 15m wide and 15m high it would have a volume and surface area of:
V= 200 * 15 * 15 = 45,000m^3
A = 2 * 200 * 15 + 2 * 15 * 15 + 2 * 200 * 15 = 6000 + 450 + 6000 = 12,450m^2
If we assume that half the SR-2's SA are those radiator strips, which considering that they look like tiger stripes is kinda justifiable, that gives it a total radiator surface of 6,225m^2 and if we assume the strips are Carbon with it's sublimation point of 3,915 K and that they are running at 3,800k then the SR-2 can radiate a maximum of:
P = 5.670373*10^-8 * 6,225 * 3,800^4
P = 5.670373*10^-8 * 6,225 * 208,513,600,000,000
P = 5.670373*10^-8 * 1,297,997,160,000,000,000
P = 73,601,280,501W = 73,601,280KW = 73,601MW = 73GW
So even at full black body radiative capacity, which they would almost certainly be below, the SR-2 can only support 73GW of waste heat before it starts to build up excess heat.
If we assume the fusion torch operates at maximum efficiency, 80%, then it could make a maximum power of no more then 365GW
From this and it's exhaust velocity, Atomic Rockets list the exhaust velocity for 3He + 3He fusion as 20,385,887m/s, we can calculate the thrust:
T = 2P/V
T = 2 * 368,006,402,505 / 20,385,887
T = 736,012,805,010 / 20,385,887
T = 36,104 newtons
Even if I use the lower velocity I found on the Atomic Rockets engine list (although that's for 3He + D):
T = 2P/V
T = 2 * 368,006,402,505 / 7,840,000
T = 736,012,805,010 / 7,840,000
T = 93,879 newtons
It's still a quarter of the Falcon 1's thrust.
Even if we assume the SR-2 has the same density as air we get:
m = 45,000 * 1.225 = 55,125kg
Which means that even in the impossibly best case scenario the SR-2 can only manage an acceleration of:
F = ma
93,879 = 55,125 * a
a = 93,879/55,125
a = 1.7m/s
so 17% of a single gee.
Best answers I've came up with:
A) I screwed up the math somewhere (unlikely since I've checked as much as I can)
B) The SR-2 and pretty much all ME ships always have their Eezo cores active dropping the mass to the point where the acceleration is practical.
C) Bioware writers lack a deep enough understanding of how space travel works to actually account for these details. And they wouldn't try even if they did know.
Mass effect screws with total radiated power. The power radiated is inversely proportional to the speed of light. By lowering the speed of light ten times (increasing the mass of radiators ten times), you'll increase the radiated power a hundred fold. That's at the first glance, of course.
But, yeah, C is the most likely option, given how many holes can be poked in mass effect physics.
Not only that, but I'm pretty sure that He3+He3 is actually one of lowest for thrust.
Not to mention that they use hydrogen + helium3 + anti-protons in their combat grade fusion torches.
I used Deuterium + Helium-3 for my second set. Also remember the only turn the anti-protons on during combat.
This is the out of combat mode since they have to stay below the radiant heat threshold.
That said if I use the anti-matter gas core, closest thing I could find on Atomic Rockets, and it's exhaust velocity of 24,500m/s:
T = 2P/V
T = 2 * 368,006,402,505 / 24,500
T = 736,012,805,010 / 24,500
T = 30,041,339 newtons = 30MN = Saturn V
Which admittedly could get our light as air SR-2 going an impressive 55gs but we all know the Normandy isn't that light.
If we assume an average density around that of the Zumwalt class Destroyer (about the same size):
45,000 * 398 = 17,902,762kg
And we'll round that down to say 10,000,000kg to account for advanced materials, design and such.
10 million kilograms with a force of 30 million newtons gives an acceleration of 3m/s.
So even using vaguely realistic, remember this is if all the ships power was dedicated solely to the engine, numbers it just doesn't work.
I was under the impression that the drive core 'naturally' lowers the overall mass of the ship, but not the reactioning material in the engines, thus granting all that thrust to something that 'weighs' a whole lot less than it's supposed to.
Which would explain how the hell they can have inter-system craft that are just as small as a school athletic pitch.
So yeah, it's likely that ships can pull off around 4Gs or more of acceleration, considering that are presumably comments about 'interia dampeners kicking in'.
I think it's more along the lines of 'Bioware didn't realise the distances involved' when talking about reaching the outer rim of solar systems in order to get to Mass Relays.
It's 6.5 Light hours between us and Pulto, were the Charon Relay supposedly sits and yet Bioware still treats travelling from Earth to Pluto as an every day occurance that hardly takes any time...
That would be option B, they run around in ships massing a fraction of what they actually do. Kind of like how the Andromeda Ascendant flies around massing less then a kilogram.
Although as Yog just mentioned thermal radiation is inversely proportional to the speed of light so that results in a low amount of radiated power so the engines have to be less powerful.
It's a question of where the sweet point is.
Huh, i always figured ME ships travel at ftl regularily due to physics ezzo bulshit, relays just do it an order of magnitude or three faster and better. I also figured newtonian phisics are only suggestions to a skilled pilot of a Magic Eezo craft.
All other options would require damaging my cranium via tactical facepalm and this would not do.
All other options would require damaging my cranium via tactical facepalm and this would not do.
The Normandy (and presumably other stealth ships) jump in, stealth and use their oversized drivecore to create a gravwell that the ship then 'falls into'.
ME ships have FTL speeds of more than 10 LYs a day. At those speeds the Earth/Pluto round trip is a very short affair, but even a very generous Relay boosted 60 LYs a day isn't enough to make casual galactic travel viable (a galaxy is thousends of lightyears across). Relays are instead so powerful that they are effectively instantaneous.
You know what, if the 'idea' that every ship in ME travels in-system using nothing but their FTL drive at 'low power', then all I can say is that space travel is a lot more dangerous in ME than in RL.
...Your ships FTL drive starts breaking down due to poor maintaince so you stop in order to avoid breaking into pieces....only to get radiated by someone who is travelling near you on a similar course at FTL or something.
Considering that some of these systems are presumably industial/trading hubs as well...
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I did say orders of magnitude. And even at 1c a six hour trip to pluto is fine.
radiation from relativity shenanegans? Space is big and we hqve shields and armor.
radiation from relativity shenanegans? Space is big and we hqve shields and armor.
Bah, you'd need to deal with the radiation anyway even if it's just you that's traveling at hilarious speed.
Dark energy fields (what actually produces the mass effect) are not all that geometrically stable, all most all observed instances show the shape to wobble a bit. Making a interacting with light in a precision manor a tricky question. The only stable field that I can recall was the geth shield in ME1 on Feros that blocked the door and that might just have been a hologram outline the barrier (or a graphics limitation).
Nope nope nope. Wiki:
"Element Zero, also known as "eezo", is a rare material that, when subjected to an electrical current, releases dark energy which can be manipulated into a mass effect field, raising or lowering the mass of all objects within that field."
Eezo releases dark energy; dark energy can be manipulated outside of the eezo that it came form. It's an important factor in both biotics and the Tantalus drive core in the Normandy. If you want a metaphor then compare the eezo to neon, run current though it and you get light (or for eezo "dark energy"), then you can use mirrors to bounce the light to were you want it. The eezo itself actually has no direct connection to the ME field, much like the neon has no direct connection to a object that gets hotter due to being illuminated. (and that's about the point the metaphor breaks down)
Theory from observations: A simple dark energy projector would be a bit of eezo in a bottle, while dark energy does permeate though solid matter (See starship mass effect systems, like art grav and FTL, as well as biotics) it is also willing to cling and interact will matter (see biotics), thus the eezo will produce dark energy that will cling to the bottle, as dark energy interacts will dark energy this makes the bottle only semi-permeable to dark energy thus via pressure forcing the majority of additional dark energy out of the bottle's opening. By varying the rate of dark energy production and the size of the bottle one could make all sorts off effects. (It should be noted that what ME calls dark energy is not really comparable to the theoretical real world dark energy, ME dark energy acts like a semi-cohesive gaseous fluid, see: what biotics looks like)
Additional theory crafting: (AKA no canon support) While we do know that Eezo makes dark energy and dark energy universally increase or reduces the mass of any material it is possible the some materials either elements, compounds, alloys or meta materials may produce odd effects when exposed to dark energy, some may have lower/higher permeability to dark energy, others may cause it to cling better/more, others may produce an voltage (phaevoltaic?) when exposed to an me field (thus allowing one to make a very short ranged dark energy detector). Or all sorts of other effects.
Umm, was that a QM statement? 'Cause the ME wiki say that the proton-anti-proton drives are pure Hydrogen + anti-protons, they aren't a booster on the fusion system, they're the main drive.
Yes I know that's a bit insane, but nothing in canon says it's a fusion drive booster.
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I believe it's part of the codex entry on space ships. Generally speaking ships run on fusion products but military ships have a small store of anti matter that they use in combat for better (main) engine performance (maneuvering systems presumably don't use antimatter, if only because of the increased difficulty in engine plumbing).
Nope the ships power plant is fusion but the drive is antiprotons and protons (aka hydrogen ions and anti-hydrongen ions) The text is:
"In combat, military vessels require accelerations beyond the capability of fusion torches. Warship thrusters inject antiprotons into a reaction chamber filled with hydrogen. The matter-antimatter annihilation provides unmatched motive power. The drawback is fuel production; antiprotons must be manufactured one particle at a time. Most antimatter production is done at massive solar arrays orbiting energetic stars, making them high-value targets in wartime."
From source. This does not on any way say that the ship uses fusion out of combat just that fusion in combat isn't good enough, thus warships use antiproton drives.
Other text from the same source:
"Intended for next-generation fighter craft, the Heed Industries Helios Thruster Module propulsion system far outpaces the typical liquid hydrogen/liquid oxygen reactions that power a frigate's maneuvering thrusters. By using metastable metallic hydrogen, the Helios boasts a fuel that burns at far greater efficiency than liquid H2/O2. Navigators can execute the numerous small course corrections inherent to any long-distance travel without fear of exhausting the ship's fuel supplies. This net gain extends to forward impulse as well: a ship powered by antiprotons can coast temporarily using the Helios to reach an inferior but highly sustainable speed. Such efficiency lowers antiproton consumption, a constant concern for any warship."
The first bit talk about maneuvering thrusters (which are a simple chemical hydrogen-oxygen burn), but the last bit clearly indicates that warships use antiproton drive for cruising as well as combat.
Thus why I'm wondering as to UberJJK's source, as nothing (that I can find) talks about warships using fusion or a "small store of antimatter".
Edit: For clarity, I was having issue with the amount of antimatter, not that they carry it of course they carry it and it made in giant orbital facilities. And I mean using fusion for propulsion, as yes fusion is a common powerplant (though in ME1 the STG ship on Virmire has a fission core).
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