- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
[][DOC] Harassment
would have my pick because its very anti pirate and a lot better to plan for
would have my pick because its very anti pirate and a lot better to plan for
Semper Ad Meliora (Code Geass/Britannian Royalty Quest)
- Thread starter Slayer Anderson
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
- Location
- South of North
Carriers aren't marked as an absolute necessity for naval fleets as of yet. They're nice to have, but there's been only a very limited number of large fleet engagements since the Great War in this timeline. There's been no abundance of hard evidence that a fleet needs them or that a fleet with more of them will win engagements against a fleet with fewer. In the most recent large-scale conflicts, the Philippines didn't have a fleet worth mentioning that could stand up to the Britannian naval forces 20 years ago. The MEF is honestly the best fight Britannia has gotten on the sea in decades and even then it's more manuever warfare than aerial dominance that is winning battles.
Plus, you guys don't have infinite funding. Priorities speak louder here.
Main Battle Fleet will have ships containing the largest-bore naval guns available to the Britannian military. 3-4 Battleships, plus a single Dreadnought to act as flagship, and a regular compliment of other screening vessels to protect your heaviest hitters.
Oi!
Last edited:
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
Oh. Oh no. We're still running with an all Big Gun fleet. Even with missiles still being a thing, the dreadnoughts are still the sea-kings. There hasn't been a Pacific War to conclusively demonstrate their need. Well, it's not like a Main Battle Fleet would be all bad, as properly designed battleships can bring to bear more AA defense, including missiles, than smaller ships. The problem therein is that it's a very expensive tool. Not a sledgehammer, as Jeanne points out. Such a large fleet, especially with a proper carrier accompaniment, can pull off escort, anti-piracy, and ASW warfare very well. But the size of the fleet and the ships involved means alot of money spend on manpower, training, and of course becoming even more expensive if we decide to create what is effectively a second airforce.
*sees dedicated bombardment vehicle*
*thinks to discussion in War Room couple months ago*
It is so very tempting to 'Show Them All' by strapping sixteen inch guns to a glorified Monitor. And given Knightmares are the kings of land battle in all but the most idiotic of hands, this is the best way to leverage that advantage.
Eh. If the Russians can strap gigantic-ass carrier-buster missiles to their destroyers, we probably can too.
In other words, sticking with carriers as a raiding force. That's... a problem. A problem that probably can't be fixed under that particular doctrine without completely reinventing the IRL 1940s USN doctrinal debates and battlefield lessons.
Eh. If the Kriegsmarine can get away with calling themselves "the lions of the sea" while doing commerce raiding, we probably can too. After all... the only important thing is if we win.
We'd probably have to augment this particular fleet doctrine considerably, as this is not even really suitable for defending a small, isolated base. It's for striking out of an unassailable position.
Which we don't have.
... yeah no, air power alone does not win wars, kindly tell those members of the Royal Britannian Air Force to go jump in a lake.
Well she seems both polite, a nice person, and really interested in helping us.
- Location
- Orbital Observation Outpost
I have to say, I did not think naval fleet would be an important factor to consider in this quest.
- In terms of available resources, we are small fish and unable to field a fleet of national size/power. I mean in RL actual countries cant afford naval fleets with cap ships.
Whatever we can buy wont threaten anything other than these equally small scale pirates.
At least if we arent using some supertech prototype units, which we arent.
- This whole pirate thing seemed to be a short term, maybe a couple battles at most. Frankly we can not afford to spend a decade on this with a bunch of naval battles, we have many other projects requiring major focus that we havent started yet.
- Additional concerns are in terms of tech. In Code canon, these naval fleets would be outdated very very soon. Aerial battleships and knightmares will replace them for actual battles.
So why are we doing this? I mean, thinking in terms of more than one-turn choice, is the eventual purpose to bet a major part of our financial strategy on being a mercenary fleet for Indonesians to patrol and protect their shipping?
Otherwise I dont know why we'd want to dump money into a fleet.
Finding someone to fight for minor prestige alone or henching for Cornelia (and we dont even know what she wants to do) will lose us money and isnt worth it.
There are also quality concerns. I think that Britannia wouldnt sell Lelouch something that isnt a stripped down diesel sub / export-model destroyer with most basic missiles/radar at best, and certainly not large ships like aircraft carriers (could we even afford to maintain one?).
Whatever cap ship we get certainly wont be a new ship, those take years of planning and are only build for a specific purpose. Anything made for Navy was planned years ago, they wont give it up. And private companies dont just start to build (civilian/export version) ships without buyers and pre-payment.
We could maybe get a second hand old model, but those cost shit loads to retrofit. And we also have to put something on it. Planes, crew. And pay for all this.
I assume fleet doctrine matters for more than flavor, but I'm not sure if pirates alone warrant any detailed mechanics (overcomplicating things this early is gonna be hard on GM).
So is this some kind of precursor to our very distant aerial / space fleet?
In that case it would make more sense to evaluate it as a combined force of mechas-ships-planes, than ships alone. As they would all be deployed in a single op.
Because on their own, besides patrols, what are navy ships alone gonna do?
Anyway, as for actual choice. Long term, taking into account changing tech, main fleet is a waste of money. We cant afford actual battleships, and whatever we can buy is gonna be old and obsolete.
We need to think about patrol destroyers (if we are planning to patrol for money), with secondary land attack role with cruise missiles, then aircraft carrier (if only because it's just a landing strip and will adapt to new tech better than battleships) along with plane selection, and of course landing ships for knightmares are mandatory.
But then again, while a carrier group will give us some mission flexibility in the future, who are we planning to invade other than pirates? By the time we can make raids against big players (countries, throne war), we will have flying ships and knightmares.
Maybe i'm misinterpreting the pacing of the quest, but I'm confused about a lot of this.
- In terms of available resources, we are small fish and unable to field a fleet of national size/power. I mean in RL actual countries cant afford naval fleets with cap ships.
Whatever we can buy wont threaten anything other than these equally small scale pirates.
At least if we arent using some supertech prototype units, which we arent.
- This whole pirate thing seemed to be a short term, maybe a couple battles at most. Frankly we can not afford to spend a decade on this with a bunch of naval battles, we have many other projects requiring major focus that we havent started yet.
- Additional concerns are in terms of tech. In Code canon, these naval fleets would be outdated very very soon. Aerial battleships and knightmares will replace them for actual battles.
So why are we doing this? I mean, thinking in terms of more than one-turn choice, is the eventual purpose to bet a major part of our financial strategy on being a mercenary fleet for Indonesians to patrol and protect their shipping?
Otherwise I dont know why we'd want to dump money into a fleet.
Finding someone to fight for minor prestige alone or henching for Cornelia (and we dont even know what she wants to do) will lose us money and isnt worth it.
There are also quality concerns. I think that Britannia wouldnt sell Lelouch something that isnt a stripped down diesel sub / export-model destroyer with most basic missiles/radar at best, and certainly not large ships like aircraft carriers (could we even afford to maintain one?).
Whatever cap ship we get certainly wont be a new ship, those take years of planning and are only build for a specific purpose. Anything made for Navy was planned years ago, they wont give it up. And private companies dont just start to build (civilian/export version) ships without buyers and pre-payment.
We could maybe get a second hand old model, but those cost shit loads to retrofit. And we also have to put something on it. Planes, crew. And pay for all this.
I assume fleet doctrine matters for more than flavor, but I'm not sure if pirates alone warrant any detailed mechanics (overcomplicating things this early is gonna be hard on GM).
So is this some kind of precursor to our very distant aerial / space fleet?
In that case it would make more sense to evaluate it as a combined force of mechas-ships-planes, than ships alone. As they would all be deployed in a single op.
Because on their own, besides patrols, what are navy ships alone gonna do?
Anyway, as for actual choice. Long term, taking into account changing tech, main fleet is a waste of money. We cant afford actual battleships, and whatever we can buy is gonna be old and obsolete.
We need to think about patrol destroyers (if we are planning to patrol for money), with secondary land attack role with cruise missiles, then aircraft carrier (if only because it's just a landing strip and will adapt to new tech better than battleships) along with plane selection, and of course landing ships for knightmares are mandatory.
But then again, while a carrier group will give us some mission flexibility in the future, who are we planning to invade other than pirates? By the time we can make raids against big players (countries, throne war), we will have flying ships and knightmares.
Maybe i'm misinterpreting the pacing of the quest, but I'm confused about a lot of this.
Last edited:
- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
already edit it
- Location
- South of North
If people are really serious about taking Australia (as the consensus more or less seems to be), then naval battles just aren't avoidable by any real measure.
Picking a doctrine at this stage allows me to pare down what ships you guys will be selecting as a priority. The alternative is giving free votes and letting the crazies come out of the woodwork to debate a precise and exacting list of ships that they'll argue twenty pages for winning any conceivable engagement because of tech that they're guess-timating Britannia should have.
The choices are designed to cut back on the work I have to do negotiating any micro-managing as regards to fleet composition while giving the voters as least some control over how they want to go about making war on the waves.
- Location
- USA
Are you sure you want third cousin? That would make their closest common relative a great-great-grandparent, and not necessarily through the royal line (although the context clues do imply that it is through the royal line).
Granted, I'm sure I'm weird for hardly knowing my cousins since I know some people that are reasonably close to some of their second cousins.
- Location
- South of North
Close enough to be a significant move by the Ethiopian Royal family, but distant enough not to start a war over should she wind up dead for any number of reasons.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
It's 50% funsies, 50% Mecha-Anime-Tech-Levels Are Nonsense. The note that Fleet Carriers are still a secondary arm of the navy really narrows down their design philosophies and potential capabilities, as there's a big difference between The Big Blue Blanket of 1944 and the forward quasi-independent scout-ships of the 1920s and 1930s. Some quest playerbases just don't so well with summaries because what they mean can get widely interpreted, as opposed to hard and fast details. When people can't get all the info they know, they try to sub in what they do know as the next best guess. And that can be wildly wrong when we're talking a world that's got Knightmares but not nuclear ICBMs.
Warmach1ne32
Machine of War and Quests
- Location
- Indonesia
@SpaceCat, remember that Lelouch have a lot of family members in major positions that like him. Dad liked him from dismantling that conspiracy, Mom cause mom, Cornelia and her mom for being curious about our naval monster of an admiral and for giving a place for Euphie, DadStadfelt for us not telling Britannian Intelligence about the conspiracy in his family which would result in them nuking his family assets to oblivion, the secret society we are in league with, and don't forget Schniezel for being his chess buddy. All of them have the capability to probably pull some strings and get us at least current gen ships for our use in exchange for a favor or several.
Besides, by the time flying ships becomes a thing, we could still use our water navy to patrol seas and be leased as a source of income.
Besides, by the time flying ships becomes a thing, we could still use our water navy to patrol seas and be leased as a source of income.
Last edited:
- Location
- Spain
@Slayer Anderson Just one thing, after picking one of the options now, can we use another Fleet Expansion action to add another specialization to our fleet?
Augustus007
*Pew pew pew* I'm a Spaceship!
- Location
- Chilling in Phobos' gravity well
Is it also possible to modify said fleet specialization? Like for example, adding long range support aircraft to our fleet? Or modifying ships to have them provide more oomph, speed etc?
- Location
- South of North
To elaborate further, this is also part of the fleet doctrine design. It pares back which strategic options you have so I don't have to deal with larger write-in plans that ultimately miss-use military assets hilariously and end in tragedy because of that.
In this method, everything stays strictly mathematical, but gives thematic flavor according to how voters want to develop their fleet depending on how exactly they want to make war.
Not exactly. What you can do, is borrow fleet assets from either the Britannian Navy, a mercenary company, or... possibly a foreign nation, though that last one is incredibly tricky.
They'll work under different doctrines, potentially, and you can employ them for task-specific jobs instead of your own forces. If you recall some of the mercenary forces which were an option in Lord Stadtfeld's deal, those would be a prime example.
You will not be able to add another, permanent, specialization to your naval doctrine.
Modification to fleet doctrine is feasible. Adding or subtracting specific elements can work as long as no one attempts to completely redefine aims and goals all at once.
Long Range Aircraft would be available most quickly with the Harassment doctrine, for example. They'd become available with Invasion doctrine as well, but later. You'd eventually get there with Main Battle Fleets, but they have the least priority on air support, so expect it to be a slow development.
PlazmaStryke
Proving why Orbital Bombardment is the way to go
- Location
- High Orbit, maybe?
So we've got:
Fleet in Being
(Naval Invasion supremacy/support
Or
Trade Interdiction/Base Strike (this is a weird departure
)
Personally, with my completely nonexistent naval experience, going with land invasion sounds amazingly tactically flexible. Enough firepower to get into major sea battles, hopefully enough AA (if we go by WoW or og 1940ish bb AA), speed in the forms of destroyers and cruisers, and yeah.
But on the other hand: Carriers. Now, the real problem with this strategy is obvious: if anything makes it past the destroyer/sub picket line, they'll be nigh-toothless sitting ducks. Which, you know, is bad.
Also, I do so believe we don't have a confirmation of tech creep in this AU. Which I'm all down for, if true, as it was frankly ridiculous the way things went in R2, especially.
Fleet in Being
(Naval Invasion supremacy/support
Or
Trade Interdiction/Base Strike (this is a weird departure
)Personally, with my completely nonexistent naval experience, going with land invasion sounds amazingly tactically flexible. Enough firepower to get into major sea battles, hopefully enough AA (if we go by WoW or og 1940ish bb AA), speed in the forms of destroyers and cruisers, and yeah.
But on the other hand: Carriers. Now, the real problem with this strategy is obvious: if anything makes it past the destroyer/sub picket line, they'll be nigh-toothless sitting ducks. Which, you know, is bad.
Also, I do so believe we don't have a confirmation of tech creep in this AU. Which I'm all down for, if true, as it was frankly ridiculous the way things went in R2, especially.
Warmach1ne32
Machine of War and Quests
- Location
- Indonesia
[ ][DOC] Main Battle Fleet
Best option in my opinion. Most versatile option and can deal with a lot of different scenarios.
[ ][DOC] Land Invasion
Bad idea, we Will get Intercepted and then blasted. We do not have that many land based units. And once our army landed the fleet is basically useless.
[ ][DOC] Harassment
Too glass cannon. Would be great at stealing pirate ships sent to raid on shipping by having aircraft carrier scout and then the subs will strike. But for direct combat you'd use the pirate's own ships against them, which is fine but depending on what ships got stolen and those ships being made mostly to raid instead of a head on engagement means that combat will be very luck reliant which I am not going to rely on.
Best option in my opinion. Most versatile option and can deal with a lot of different scenarios.
[ ][DOC] Land Invasion
Bad idea, we Will get Intercepted and then blasted. We do not have that many land based units. And once our army landed the fleet is basically useless.
[ ][DOC] Harassment
Too glass cannon. Would be great at stealing pirate ships sent to raid on shipping by having aircraft carrier scout and then the subs will strike. But for direct combat you'd use the pirate's own ships against them, which is fine but depending on what ships got stolen and those ships being made mostly to raid instead of a head on engagement means that combat will be very luck reliant which I am not going to rely on.
Didn't dreadnoughts or battleships get their own biplane to scout and act as spotters?
- Location
- South of North
Scouting planes are a possibility with Main Battle Fleet, dedicated fighters or bombers less-so.
They'd still be relatively low priority, but I suppose voters could shift that around a bit.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
Something to consider with this navy is that, if, when we do take Australia, this fleet will likely be our first line of defense against any other takers during the first few months, so having something that can do that would be nice.
Euphy is the best wingwoman. She already set up a new harem member to help create ties towards peace and Lelouch uses his natural charm.
I think teenager is somewhat of a stretch here. We were 12 in turn 1 if I remember correctly. It is turn 7 right now so we are 19 if my math is right. If she is older than us then it should be young lady/woman and not teenager.
Another set of interesting background rolls? Who rolled the Nat1 this year? And how on fire is the world this turn?
And now to my thoughts on the options.
[ ][DOC] Main Battle Fleet
In my opinion the worst choice for us. First technological development will make this fleet obsolete. Secondly while the pirates do outnumber us their forces are outdated so unless we screw up by the numbers I doubt we will face a pitched naval battle. And there is the fact that most pirate fleets won't go for pitched battles with us. There will be a lot of smaller skirmishes and the only pitched battle would be when we go after a port and they decide to make a last stand. This option will also require hiring (or getting from allies) some land assault units.
[ ][DOC] Land Invasion
Best option short term. Will require us to hire extra naval forces to escort our fleet when we press a land attack. Will lead to us expanding our land forces to hold conquered ports. Should also be the most useful for Cornelia if we decide to help her.
[ ][DOC] Harassment
An average option right now but has the most potential. If we go for this option we should grab Hashima's Theory this year to find out if she has anything like the Float system. In that case aircraft carriers would become Knightmare carriers making them work better with our current forces. Ports are very defensive from the sea because they are often built on the best landing sites. With a float system (or some effective cargo transport) we can drop our Knightmares away from the port defenses and attack ports from the land. This option will also work the best with using Euphie to negotiate the surrender of certain ports after our better scouting capability and range allowed us to make piracy unsustainable.
Any option we take will mean we will need to use diplomacy to gain some extra forces to shore up our weakness. For Main Battle Fleet we will need to hire extra mercenaries to take ports. For Land Invasion we will need to hire extra fleet units to punch through the enemy fleet. With Harassment we will either need to hire more units for a direct attack or use diplomacy to get the enemy to surrender after we harass them enough.
As most pirates are in it for the money and taking into account our potential technology (air and space craft development) I am for grabbing Harassment.
As we most likely will be visiting the Area governors next turn. From what Lelouch knows is Countess Emilia Carbez more interested in destruction/revenge or would she accept a negotiated surrender of the Blood? Because if we took her offer a Harassment fleet would be better for a negotiated settlement while the Land Invasion option would be better for a hard option. I am interested in getting the Blood and Children of Ching Shih on more peaceful terms also.
Not really. Unless we get inflicted by a sudden bout of insanity and break away from the Empire there will be the 7th Fleet in Manila (Area 9) to help with any serious attacks. Any moves from inside the Empire will be political. The most we will have to worry after our conquest are small pirate bands. For that the aircraft range and responsiveness of the Harassment fleet would be best.
- Location
- South of North
I'll leave you guys to discuss. A thunderstorm has just rolled in (quite literally and loudly) and flickered power twice. I've shut down non-essential and am running off my phone's internet for the moment.
I'm going to leave the moratorium on until I get back from work tomorrow to give plenty of discussion time for this vote. It's kind of an important one with a lot of angles to consider.
So... MORATORIUM IS STILL IN EFFECT! DO NOT VOTE UNTIL THE QM OPENS THE VOTE!
I'm going to leave the moratorium on until I get back from work tomorrow to give plenty of discussion time for this vote. It's kind of an important one with a lot of angles to consider.
So... MORATORIUM IS STILL IN EFFECT! DO NOT VOTE UNTIL THE QM OPENS THE VOTE!
jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
- Location
- Canada
Another aspect of the fleet to consider is the proverbial bang for our buck. We don't have unlimited funding meaning that until we aquire more income sources we'll probably have to keep lending them out for pirate hunting/escort duties.
Ergo Harassment or Main Battle Fleet seem like the only options with the former being better suited for the role.
Ergo Harassment or Main Battle Fleet seem like the only options with the former being better suited for the role.
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
Unrelated to the doctrine discussion, but speaking of the Area 9 Viceroy (the Countess)... the main problem when it came to attacking the Blood of L'Olonnais was the fact that they have good relations with the Indonesian Confederation, which was protected by the Chinese, which meant that attacking the Blood could draw China into that conflict, something that was to be avoided. However, considering that as of the Turn 6 Rumor Mill China's action regarding pirate funding were discovered, Indonesia might be on the verge of breaking off their relations with China, which means that the Blood become a lot more safer to attack, as there is no risk of China intervening in the events of an attack against the Blood.
Kinda but not necessarily here as well
Irl the US is focusing heavily on it and is because of it heavily investing in improvements of the doctrine and nobody else has big fleets so they are doninating kinda by default
Meanwhile the HBE is heavily focused on the KMF and would accordingly focus development in their other forces in support of improving that advantage
- Location
- UK
Is the quest changing how effective aircraft are IRL? Because aircraft carriers and naval aircraft very quickly proved themselves vital in the Pacific theatre during WW2, and were also critical in the handful of encounters between British and German ships in the Atlantic.
Saying that the "Harassment fleet" would be bad at engaging enemy fleets ignores that a carrier fleet could wipe out a fleet of regular battleships, destroyers, and frigates that was several times its size from a hundred miles away, without ever being directly exposed to any danger.
Likewise, arguing that it wouldn't be suited for coastal assaults is a bit ridiculous. Just look at the Gulf War of 1991, or the Iraq war of 2003 if you want to see how devastating sea-borne airpower can be when it comes to obliterating enemy defences and supporting a land invasion. Even earlier than that, US carriers demonstrated their worth not just for sea battles, but for supporting amphibious assaults, as the US "island hopped" across the Pacific towards Japan.
Now, the doctrine may not fully exist yet, but frankly that's not really a big issue. Prior to the 1940s, the doctrine didn't exist because of the technical limitations of existing aircraft, and the infancy of aviation technology in general. With long range radar and advanced aircraft already developed, there are no major technical barriers to overcome, and the advantages and possibilities of carrier-warfare will be immediately apparent as soon as we attempt to target enemy ships at all.
Saying that the "Harassment fleet" would be bad at engaging enemy fleets ignores that a carrier fleet could wipe out a fleet of regular battleships, destroyers, and frigates that was several times its size from a hundred miles away, without ever being directly exposed to any danger.
Likewise, arguing that it wouldn't be suited for coastal assaults is a bit ridiculous. Just look at the Gulf War of 1991, or the Iraq war of 2003 if you want to see how devastating sea-borne airpower can be when it comes to obliterating enemy defences and supporting a land invasion. Even earlier than that, US carriers demonstrated their worth not just for sea battles, but for supporting amphibious assaults, as the US "island hopped" across the Pacific towards Japan.
Now, the doctrine may not fully exist yet, but frankly that's not really a big issue. Prior to the 1940s, the doctrine didn't exist because of the technical limitations of existing aircraft, and the infancy of aviation technology in general. With long range radar and advanced aircraft already developed, there are no major technical barriers to overcome, and the advantages and possibilities of carrier-warfare will be immediately apparent as soon as we attempt to target enemy ships at all.
Last edited:
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
After some consideration and catching up on the fleet doctrine discussion, I'm leaning towards Harassment. Because not only it is, like already mentioned before multiple times, probably better suited for the likely coming changes in the traditional warfare doctrines, but also fits Lelouch's personal style for tactics and strategies (both the canon and this quest's version being sneaky evil-ish fiends). And besides Hashima's Theory, there is also Lelouch's psychic abilities and technologies. His current abilities allow this, without any amplification tech:
So I'm going to be voting for it because of both the game-mechanics viewpoint, and how it would be more thematically fitting as well as likely fun to read (and hopefully write for Slayer). Unless someone makes a really good argument against it, my mind is mostly set.
On other matters, a question @Slayer Anderson.
Especially with submarines, hiding one even better or making a fake one appear on the radar could be quite useful in many situation. And that is not even touching on how we might be able to leverage the knowledge we are going to gain from the Orb to make our small harassment focused fleet even more technologically advanced, hopefully allowing things like radar/visual cloaking without a super-psychic like Lelouch on board of the ship or the submarine. And I, at least, also want to see direct (psionic) energy weapons and shields on our ships before we move to space conquest.
So I'm going to be voting for it because of both the game-mechanics viewpoint, and how it would be more thematically fitting as well as likely fun to read (and hopefully write for Slayer). Unless someone makes a really good argument against it, my mind is mostly set.
On other matters, a question @Slayer Anderson.
No ranking up their veterancy -modifier yet? Roughly how many and what kind of fights they would have to be to become better in the game mechanics -sense?
Last edited: