Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
- Original Historic
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
Well, not the plan creator, but I favor Weather Eye because I feel like it'll be easier to build ties with our father's allies and bribe people into voting for us if we've first laid the groundwork to have both money and information we can use for those things.
And because I'd rather have Cicero see us as a friend or at worst a worthy rival than as an enemy. Especially when (albeit with good reason) we're about to scuttle any chance of a partnership with Pompey.
And because I'd rather have Cicero see us as a friend or at worst a worthy rival than as an enemy. Especially when (albeit with good reason) we're about to scuttle any chance of a partnership with Pompey.
<cracks knuckles> Let's do this.
For 'The Conspirators', there is no difference between the two leading plans.
For 'A Name For Yourself', there is a choice between 'Debate Fields' (Weather Eye) and 'Advocacy' (Coming Man).
Argument for Debate Fields: this is where young Romans earn their stripes. This is where we will meet Cicero. 'Debate Fields' is a low-risk way to earn our reputation as a serious aspiring statesman, as an idealist, as a student of Scaevola, as someone with ambition and with the Intelligence and Charisma to see that ambition realized.
Argument against Advocacy: I think it's important to recognize two facts -- first, 'advocacy' in the Roman republic was less about the law and more about the quality of one's oratory (not to mention the reputation and power of the two parties involved), and second, that losing cases could be a serious blow to our reputation. Recall that Cicero didn't officially start trying cases until 83 BC at the earliest -- which won't be for another three years (not to mention the fact that he's already three years older than us). If Advocacy is the path we want to follow, we know the person whose steps we ought to follow for best effect, and they don't involve working as a lawyer right away after half a year of legal instruction. Also, the prompt says that the current cases available to us are less respectable due to our lack of reputation, so the upside is less (and the downside is much more) than you might think.
Argument against Advocacy: I think it's important to recognize two facts -- first, 'advocacy' in the Roman republic was less about the law and more about the quality of one's oratory (not to mention the reputation and power of the two parties involved), and second, that losing cases could be a serious blow to our reputation. Recall that Cicero didn't officially start trying cases until 83 BC at the earliest -- which won't be for another three years (not to mention the fact that he's already three years older than us). If Advocacy is the path we want to follow, we know the person whose steps we ought to follow for best effect, and they don't involve working as a lawyer right away after half a year of legal instruction. Also, the prompt says that the current cases available to us are less respectable due to our lack of reputation, so the upside is less (and the downside is much more) than you might think.
For 'Too Little Time', Plan Weather Eye prioritizes long-term development of our household (Web-Building and Selling Wine), while Plan Coming Man prioritizes our political presence and reputation within Rome (Old Friends and Never Too Early To Run).
Argument for Web-Building: this is literally why we brought Proserpina to Rome. She's not the best steward or bodyguard or servant; she's a loyal spymaster, and this is our chance to start building our spynet. If we had a network of informants, we wouldn't have been blindsided by Pompey's conspiracy, and would have a better idea of how to respond to it. Rome is a playground for assassins and conspirators and backstabbers of every sort, and this is the one thing we can do to make our stay in Rome safer for the long-run.
Argument for Selling Wine: Stewardship is our dump stat, and the rest of our servants are too busy managing our estate to help us while we're moving around the empire. Managing our father's vineyard may be a minor income-generator, but it puts us in contact with a new steward/administrator who will be competent at managing our money in the long run. Caesar got away with terrible Stewardship because he had legendary stats and skills in every other category, and even then he was a pawn of Crassus for much of his career. Let's make sure we don't go bankrupt. (Also note: due to our abysmal stewardship stat, anyone we hire to manage our estate would find it easy to steal from us, since we wouldn't know enough to spot imbalance or fraud in our accounts. Pairing 'Selling Wine' with an action to set up our spynet should help, since Proserpina would keep her eye on the integrity of our household.
Argument against Never Too Early To Run: yes, we want to ascend the cursus honorum and become a tribune next year. But who elects the tribunes? There are two types of tribunes, with two different electorates. 'Thin-striped' are the standard tribunes, who get elected by the equites (non-patricians) and serve as lower-ranked officers in a legion. 'Broad-striped' tribunes (tribunus laticlavius) are elite tribunes, who get elected by the Senate (aka the patricians) and serve as the second-in-command of the legion they're assigned to! If we want to climb the cursus honorum, we want to get that broad-stripe, and we have the background and patronage (patrician student of Scaevola) to get one. 'Never Too Early' explicitly states that this option would see us "building up influence and connections among the plebeians and the masses" -- that's precisely the wrong strategy if we want to attain higher office. It may be useful for the (very) long-term, to have a 'political machine' waiting for us back at home, but we're going to be away from Rome for years, so that machine would necessarily reach a state of disrepair before we can return. Better to wait until we're living in Rome long-term, to set up a political machine that requires our maintenance.
Argument against Old Friends: I've actually been wrestling for a while if I should include it in my plan. Our father's friends are of patrician rank; this action would bolster our allies in that faction, and help us win election as a 'broad striped tribune'. My only concern is that, in the highly partisan environment of Rome as it currently exists -- divided between Marius and Sulla -- I'm not sure if it's wise to double-down on our ties to the patricians, especially with violence likely to break out in the near future. It might be better to stick to Scaevola, a living legend and law-giver who may be associated with the patricians and Optimates but who is largely neutral in the contest between Marius and Sulla. We can always make contact with our father's friends later, once the partisan pressure-cooker has cooled off. I'd prefer to use this interim year to shore up our weaknesses (intrigue and stewardship) and prepare ourselves to be the best tribune we can be.
Argument for Selling Wine: Stewardship is our dump stat, and the rest of our servants are too busy managing our estate to help us while we're moving around the empire. Managing our father's vineyard may be a minor income-generator, but it puts us in contact with a new steward/administrator who will be competent at managing our money in the long run. Caesar got away with terrible Stewardship because he had legendary stats and skills in every other category, and even then he was a pawn of Crassus for much of his career. Let's make sure we don't go bankrupt. (Also note: due to our abysmal stewardship stat, anyone we hire to manage our estate would find it easy to steal from us, since we wouldn't know enough to spot imbalance or fraud in our accounts. Pairing 'Selling Wine' with an action to set up our spynet should help, since Proserpina would keep her eye on the integrity of our household.
Argument against Never Too Early To Run: yes, we want to ascend the cursus honorum and become a tribune next year. But who elects the tribunes? There are two types of tribunes, with two different electorates. 'Thin-striped' are the standard tribunes, who get elected by the equites (non-patricians) and serve as lower-ranked officers in a legion. 'Broad-striped' tribunes (tribunus laticlavius) are elite tribunes, who get elected by the Senate (aka the patricians) and serve as the second-in-command of the legion they're assigned to! If we want to climb the cursus honorum, we want to get that broad-stripe, and we have the background and patronage (patrician student of Scaevola) to get one. 'Never Too Early' explicitly states that this option would see us "building up influence and connections among the plebeians and the masses" -- that's precisely the wrong strategy if we want to attain higher office. It may be useful for the (very) long-term, to have a 'political machine' waiting for us back at home, but we're going to be away from Rome for years, so that machine would necessarily reach a state of disrepair before we can return. Better to wait until we're living in Rome long-term, to set up a political machine that requires our maintenance.
Argument against Old Friends: I've actually been wrestling for a while if I should include it in my plan. Our father's friends are of patrician rank; this action would bolster our allies in that faction, and help us win election as a 'broad striped tribune'. My only concern is that, in the highly partisan environment of Rome as it currently exists -- divided between Marius and Sulla -- I'm not sure if it's wise to double-down on our ties to the patricians, especially with violence likely to break out in the near future. It might be better to stick to Scaevola, a living legend and law-giver who may be associated with the patricians and Optimates but who is largely neutral in the contest between Marius and Sulla. We can always make contact with our father's friends later, once the partisan pressure-cooker has cooled off. I'd prefer to use this interim year to shore up our weaknesses (intrigue and stewardship) and prepare ourselves to be the best tribune we can be.
All that to say: vote for Plan Weather Eye.
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Like I said earlier, Web Building is the action I would switch in if I was going to change things up. It's a very close third in my priorities. However, I don't think the vineyard should be an immediate priority. As has been discussed, you can get by with loans if absolutely necessary, and there's no guarantee that the vineyard is going to remain profitable beyond the next two/three years. There's the possibility of making money with Advocacy too, though I'm not counting on it for the immediate future. (The sooner we start trying cases, though, the sooner people start offering us expensive artworks and valuable property to act in their defence.)
As for befriending Cicero, I don't see anything in any of the plans that puts us at risk of animosity? OTL, Cicero wouldn't start taking cases until after the Civil War, and even if he does start early here, it's perfectly possible for two Roman gentlemen to oppose one another in court without any personal enmity. (Unless one of those gentlemen is Clodius.)
Edit: Gah, now the possibility exists that I'm going to double post. That offends my sense of aesthetics.
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I'm halping!
Any reason why you think it's a short-term investment? Land is land, and it might not generate a huge amount of income, but it's not like Romans will be buying less wine in the future? My main interest is finding a steward/administrator for everything else we need to manage (ideally a named servant like Proserpina), but I don't discount the usefulness of having a steady income stream.
The expensive gifts would only happen if a) we had 'respectable' (rich) clients, which will not be the case for picking Advocacy right away, and b) if we were really really good at it. Specifically, we'd need to be better than Cicero, because he didn't start trying cases until he was six years older than we are right now, and even then he didn't start getting the gifts until a lot later.
@Pensive-Nerves, @Die Forelle, @Cybandeath, @Uhtread, @baboushreturns:
All five of you voted for 'Plan Foundations', which is highly unlikely to win. Given that the only difference between your votes and Plan Weather Eye is growing our reputation via the Debate Fields (rather than the Slave Rebellion), would you be interested in changing your vote?
All five of you voted for 'Plan Foundations', which is highly unlikely to win. Given that the only difference between your votes and Plan Weather Eye is growing our reputation via the Debate Fields (rather than the Slave Rebellion), would you be interested in changing your vote?
Right. I'm a bit caught for time, so apologies if this is a little perfunctory.
- Our stats for Advocacy are exactly as good as our stats for Debate. Better in fact, as the former is unlikely to involve philosophy. Also, I'm interpreting the Advocacy cases as being less 'reputable' in the sense that winning them will bring less renown than prosecuting a former Praetor for extortion and the like. Mainly, however, I'm opting for Advocacy as it synergises massively with Never Too Early.
- I don't know why Cicero didn't start taking cases until ~83. I do know, however, that our stats suggest we should do well with the sort of cases we can expect to get.
- Yes, it's going to take a while to crank advocacy up to the point where it's financially profitable as well as everything else. That's why I want to start now.
- I think there's the possibility of the vineyard being short term because there's going to be rather a large amount of armies rampaging through Italy in the near future, and vineyards, so far as I know, are delicate things.
-We already have a steward - Mancina. I'm pretty sure that we can just send him instructions to vet overseers for the vineyard. That's what he's for.
- I've said before that I really want Web Building
- It wouldn't have helped us with Pompey, though. You can tell because his head isn't mounted on the Rostra.
- Never Too Early: I've asked Telamon and it isn't courting the mob in the way you're thinking. Also, this isn't about being elected tribune. This is about every election we ever run in. It is the most important thing a Roman nobleman can own, aside from his dignitas and auctoritas.
- Yes, we're going to be away from Rome for long periods. That's a big part of why you want a robust client network. Past a certain point it's basically self-sustaining, and it ensures that people hear about the great deeds we have performed in their name. How do you think Caesar ensured everybody got to hear his commentary on the Gallic Wars?
- If we ask Scaevola to endorse us as a broad-striped tribune, he almost certainly will. He's very likely to ask us something in return, but this is how patron/client relationships work. Being seen to shirk that would be poison to Scaevola's reputation and legacy.
- Old Friends: Scaevola explicitly called our father a populist, actually. His connections are likely to be that way too. Besides, there's something of an expectation that we'd keep up our father's commitments and relationships. Amicitia lasts between generations in Rome.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think what clinched my decision to vote "Coming Man" is that it seems totally in character for an ambitious young Roman to focus on those things rather than on putting his own household in order. Especially one with low Stewardship and, as I recall, unremarkable Intrigue.
Vote 'Plan Weather Eye'!
Second, I'm pretty sure Mancina is in charge of our family estate, and will be remaining there for the duration of the quest (that's the point of our first vote, to decide which of our household staff would follow us to Rome and be personally useful and accessible during our career). Even if we can rely on Mancina, business is still our dump stat, and it's better to have two competent stewards than one (and much better to have one such servant than none!)
Perhaps this is why Cicero stayed out of politics until he was older: because active involvement in the Marius-Sulla war would be a really terrible idea, so he waited for things to cool down ssomewhat....
Call it meta-gaming if you want to; I prefer to think of it as using the resources at our disposal to make the best possible decision available to us.
I think you're discounting the importance of Cicero's delay. The fact that the best lawyer in Roman history decided to wait until he was 23 years old (6 years older than us) before beginning his career -- and until he was 27 before taking his first major case -- should at least hint that it's better to do things right than to do them early. It's also worthwhile to note that Cicero earned his reputation by directly challenging Hortensius, the pre-eminent lawyer at the time. Cicero developed his skill -- at oratory, philosophy, and everything else -- for years before seeking that one big case to establish his reputation forever after. If we charge ahead with Advocacy when we're still young and untried, I worry that will be what defines our reputation -- as someone too impatient to do the job properly.
First, there will always be armies rampaging, but it's rare to see estates burnt to a crisp. There are plenty of leading men of Rome who own large estates and who earn their income through land, and I'm having trouble thinking of any who lose their holdings in that manner.
Second, I'm pretty sure Mancina is in charge of our family estate, and will be remaining there for the duration of the quest (that's the point of our first vote, to decide which of our household staff would follow us to Rome and be personally useful and accessible during our career). Even if we can rely on Mancina, business is still our dump stat, and it's better to have two competent stewards than one (and much better to have one such servant than none!)
I'd prefer to wait on active campaigning until we have something to campaign on. We're (very) young, almost entirely untried, with a minimal reputation that we're just starting to build. Right now, I feel that campaigning for public support would have more success if we waited until we deserve it. I agree that building a client network is important -- but the opportunity cost of pursuing that (at the exclusion of developing our network of informants) is far too high.
Good point -- that expectation is why 'Old Friends' was a close third place -- but all the more reason to hold off on this for a turn. Amicitia isn't going to disappear because we didn't reach out. Assuming our father's friends survive the upcoming purges and wars between Marius and Sulla, they'll still be friendly on our return. But it's unclear to me why they should be a priority now, especially since it is unclear that all of them will survive the Marius-Sulla conflict. Rome is really unsafe at the moment -- not even Scaevola is safe! We don't yet have the intrigue to stay out of trouble, and you have two actions to immerse ourselves even more in Rome's political landscape?
Perhaps this is why Cicero stayed out of politics until he was older: because active involvement in the Marius-Sulla war would be a really terrible idea, so he waited for things to cool down ssomewhat....
I entirely agree with you -- but that's all the more reason to vote 'Weather Eye'! We are not an average young Roman; we have the benefit of hindsight, and OOC knowledge. We know that our Intrigue stat is terrible -- if this were real-life, part of that 'terrible' would be a tendency to think of Intrigue as less important. But this isn't real life, this is a quest, and we know that Intrigue is exceedingly important.
Call it meta-gaming if you want to; I prefer to think of it as using the resources at our disposal to make the best possible decision available to us.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm. In fairness...
You can call it metagaming. I think I'll call it the gift of Minerva, patron of heroes and font of wisdom.
Color me convinced.
[X] Plan Weather Eye
Plus, I don't know Roman history like many of you, but I'd love to see us run into Young Cicero the way we just ran into Young Pompey.
EDIT:
Uh-oh, that puts us 14-14, 16-16 if you count a couple of votes lower down for the plans that are structured differently but call for the same thing...
You can call it metagaming. I think I'll call it the gift of Minerva, patron of heroes and font of wisdom.
Color me convinced.
[X] Plan Weather Eye
Plus, I don't know Roman history like many of you, but I'd love to see us run into Young Cicero the way we just ran into Young Pompey.
EDIT:
Uh-oh, that puts us 14-14, 16-16 if you count a couple of votes lower down for the plans that are structured differently but call for the same thing...
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Just on the Cicero thing, at our age Cicero was (trying to avoid) fighting in the Social War under Pompey Strabo, and thus unable to take cases. The Social War was very much all hands on deck.
After that, we had the whole mess with Sulpicius, Sulla's first march on Rome, and then Marius and Cinna besieging the city, where Cicero may have witnessed the murder of one of his mentors, Antonius Orator. He almost certainly witnessed the brutal killing of Gratidianus when Sulla retook the city as well. Given his relative lack of nerve, I don't think it was a strictly rational decision on his part to avoid the Forum, more a visceral reaction.
Like, the violence (proscriptions aside) was mainly confined to two, almost manic, periods of bloodletting when the Marians/Cinnans had either taken Rome or felt themselves in danger of losing it/ lost it. The latter hasn't happened yet, and we didn't have any personally traumatising experiences during the former. We have a still living and less obviously insane Marius here too, which should help keep a lid on things until Sulla lands.
If this was RL, then I'd agree we should wait before beginning our legal career. But it's a quest, and looking at our stats I see no reason to doubt our ability to win the cases we're likely to get.
After that, we had the whole mess with Sulpicius, Sulla's first march on Rome, and then Marius and Cinna besieging the city, where Cicero may have witnessed the murder of one of his mentors, Antonius Orator. He almost certainly witnessed the brutal killing of Gratidianus when Sulla retook the city as well. Given his relative lack of nerve, I don't think it was a strictly rational decision on his part to avoid the Forum, more a visceral reaction.
Like, the violence (proscriptions aside) was mainly confined to two, almost manic, periods of bloodletting when the Marians/Cinnans had either taken Rome or felt themselves in danger of losing it/ lost it. The latter hasn't happened yet, and we didn't have any personally traumatising experiences during the former. We have a still living and less obviously insane Marius here too, which should help keep a lid on things until Sulla lands.
If this was RL, then I'd agree we should wait before beginning our legal career. But it's a quest, and looking at our stats I see no reason to doubt our ability to win the cases we're likely to get.
Walpurgis Knight
Guardian of Folkvang
- Location
- Union of Cascadian Socialist Republics (UCSR)
[X] Plan Weather Eye
Zeroth Jupi
Sporadic Writer and Haver of Ideas
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
[x] Plan Weather Eye
Cybandeath
Lord Darkness, and Representative of Mad Science
- Location
- The United States of America
The debate fields is exactly the reason im not voting weather eye.
[X] Plan: Gaining Experience
[X] Report the meeting to Scaevola. A powerful individual, he will take care of it in his own manner, without being as...final as the Marians might.
[X]Slave Rebellion
[X] Old Friends
[X] Selling Wine
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
At this point, "Gaining Experience" and other such plans are highly unlikely to win.
Furthermore, it is debateable whether going to help put down the slave rebellion is a likely way to win useful renown and reputation. Marius the Elder is alive for the near future, and Marius the Younger is the leader of the expedition. It is likely that what little glory there is for the Roman officers who put down a slave uprising will go to the younger Marius.
Furthermore, any reputation we develop as a helpful subordinate to Marius the Younger is likely to be useful only among the Marians, and don't we expect the Marians to be in trouble when Sulla gets back? Though to be fair, the survival of Marius the Elder may impact that outcome.
Furthermore, it is debateable whether going to help put down the slave rebellion is a likely way to win useful renown and reputation. Marius the Elder is alive for the near future, and Marius the Younger is the leader of the expedition. It is likely that what little glory there is for the Roman officers who put down a slave uprising will go to the younger Marius.
Furthermore, any reputation we develop as a helpful subordinate to Marius the Younger is likely to be useful only among the Marians, and don't we expect the Marians to be in trouble when Sulla gets back? Though to be fair, the survival of Marius the Elder may impact that outcome.
- Location
- United States of America
So, is there a reason why both of the leading plans have us selling wine when our stewardship stat says we couldn't manage one?
Is it to gain experience?
Edit: I guess it's just "Plan Weather Eye"
Is it to gain experience?
Edit: I guess it's just "Plan Weather Eye"
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- Location
- Classified
We're not selling wine, we're appointing a guy to run the vineyards we already own. A boost to stewardship is unlikely, but would be appreciated.
- Location
- United States of America
Ahh, well that explains it. I must have misunderstood or misread the option.
- Location
- USA
Any idea when voting is going to close?
Telamon
A corvid.
- Location
- Texas
Now.
But yes, Voting is Closed.
The winner is...Plan Weather Eye.
Update will hit tomorrow.
V: Sub Rosa
Telamon
A corvid.
- Location
- Texas
[X] Plan Weather Eye
[X] Report the meeting to Scaevola.
[X] The Debate Fields
[X] Selling Wine
[X] Web-building
[X] Report the meeting to Scaevola.
[X] The Debate Fields
[X] Selling Wine
[X] Web-building
July 15th, 86 BC
668 Years After The Founding Of Rome
The Year of Cinna and Marius.
The Pompeian Conspiracy ends as it began, with a few hushed whispers in the dead of night and a handful of muttered words over a cup of wine. Almost immediately after Pompey makes his proposal to you in the Forum, you send a slave to Scaevola with news of the planned meeting, and the implied threat of a plot. An attempt on the life of Marius or one of his supporters could tighten the noose around the neck of all optimates in Rome, and you dare not imagine the chaos that might erupt if such a plan were to succeed. Scaevola, you know, understands this better than anyone else, for he was one of the optimates most targeted in the riots during Marius' illness earlier in the year.
A handful of days go by, and the story of what occurs must be pieced together by yourself through hearsay and rumor. Pompey and a handful of his friends and supporters had planned, through bribery, to incite the legions stationed in the city to violence, Pompey's and Marius' alike. Under the cover of such chaos, they would kill Marius, Sertorius, and a handful of other powerful Marians. The act would be scandalous, but without proof and with the excuse of the riots, no blame could be placed. With the Marians crippled and in disarray, Pompey would have rallied his legions and seized the city, 'quelling' the riots he himself had started. Sulla would return home to Marius dead and Rome under optimate control.
It was a brazen and daring plan -- one which would have spilled untold amounts of Roman blood in Rome's own streets. Scaevola gathered several other powerful aristocrats of the city -- among them such powerful names as Mamercus Livianus, Sulla's own son-in-law and the de facto leader of the optimates in Rome -- and informed them of the scheme. Though unable to attack Pompey and his legions directly, they harnessed their power and influence to press down on Pompey's allies and supporters. Young politicians with their entire careers ahead of them, they abandoned Pompey to a man, and his audacious plot melted away like dew in the morning.
It is a handful of days later when the slave you sent to Scaevola to tell him about the plot appears face-down and naked in the Tiber, his body riddled with knife wounds. A thorough investigation of his corpse reveals no clues, but the message is clear -- Pompey knows, and he wants you to know he knows.
Such a blatant threat chills you to the bone, and you know that Pompey has friends and allies throughout the city. You are a mere nobilis of no great status -- even rock-faced Scaevola would shed no tears should you die in your sleep, and he has given you all the aid he can. No, you will have to protect yourself from this new threat, you decide.
In Rome, the rose is a symbol of secrecy and intrigue, the sign of deeds best done in darkness and under cover of night. To speak of Roma sub rosa, "Rome under the rose", is to speak of the secrets and the shadows which lie rotting in the underbelly of this great city. It is to speak of the vast webs of conspiracy and influence spun by most every man of note in Rome. Your father was no stranger to these webs, and spun a few of his own in his day, aided principally by the demure and unassuming kitchen maid, Proserpina. Hailing from Pompeii, she has long had experience and knowledge with acts and deeds done in secret, and served as your father's principal agent in these matters.
You approach Proserpina about building a network to protect yourself from the enemies you seem to be quickly developing in Rome, and she takes to the task with a quiet eagerness that sets you back. Firstly, she takes you with her to the slave markets to purchase a new batch of slaves. However, she asks you to eschew traditional slave-buying practices. Instead of the tallest, the strongest, or the most handsome, she asks you to look for the quickest, the leanest, the smallest and quietest -- those who can move without being seen, or who simply do not draw the eye. Your untrained eyes cannot pick out much of what she suggests, but Proserpina and her years of experience are able to quickly select a good ten or eleven trustworthy slaves which you readily purchase.
These slaves, she says, will be the foundation of her network. They will move quietly through the city streets, unknown and unheard, and will report all that they hear and see back to her. In return, they are paid a small stipend with which they may eventually hope to buy their freedom, and which ties their loyalties to you.
Next, she begins to make inroads with those who, while not slaves, might be more than willing to offer up anything that crosses their ears -- for the right price, of course. She deals with innkeepers, prostitutes and street sweepers -- the sort of people everyone must deal with or pass by, no matter their status. All it takes is a few coins in the right hands to earn the promise of information, and Proserpina carefully sets it up so that your own name is never mentioned in the proceedings.
But of course, Proserpina's most valuable resource is Proserpina herself. Quiet, small, and demure, she is able to slip into any compound, villa, or temple, appearing to be only the meekest of slaves. She can slide into any kitchen in Rome and assume the place of a scullery maid or kitchen wench, someone unremarkable and hardly worthy of even a passing thought. It is in this way that she gathers her most important information, through gossip and banter and overheard conversations. Men of power have freer tongues around those they think will never betray them, and Proserpina is exceptionally skilled at making herself appear as such.
Within weeks she has erected a complicated network of blackmail, bribery, and loyalty which has men and women across Rome feeding her information on nearly everything that happens. While her 'web' is far from all-seeing or insurmountable, chances are you will hear of an attempt on your life long before it occurs. It is not foolproof, but you can sleep a little easier without the thought of Pompey's daggers glinting in the dark.
668 Years After The Founding Of Rome
The Year of Cinna and Marius.
The Pompeian Conspiracy ends as it began, with a few hushed whispers in the dead of night and a handful of muttered words over a cup of wine. Almost immediately after Pompey makes his proposal to you in the Forum, you send a slave to Scaevola with news of the planned meeting, and the implied threat of a plot. An attempt on the life of Marius or one of his supporters could tighten the noose around the neck of all optimates in Rome, and you dare not imagine the chaos that might erupt if such a plan were to succeed. Scaevola, you know, understands this better than anyone else, for he was one of the optimates most targeted in the riots during Marius' illness earlier in the year.
A handful of days go by, and the story of what occurs must be pieced together by yourself through hearsay and rumor. Pompey and a handful of his friends and supporters had planned, through bribery, to incite the legions stationed in the city to violence, Pompey's and Marius' alike. Under the cover of such chaos, they would kill Marius, Sertorius, and a handful of other powerful Marians. The act would be scandalous, but without proof and with the excuse of the riots, no blame could be placed. With the Marians crippled and in disarray, Pompey would have rallied his legions and seized the city, 'quelling' the riots he himself had started. Sulla would return home to Marius dead and Rome under optimate control.
It was a brazen and daring plan -- one which would have spilled untold amounts of Roman blood in Rome's own streets. Scaevola gathered several other powerful aristocrats of the city -- among them such powerful names as Mamercus Livianus, Sulla's own son-in-law and the de facto leader of the optimates in Rome -- and informed them of the scheme. Though unable to attack Pompey and his legions directly, they harnessed their power and influence to press down on Pompey's allies and supporters. Young politicians with their entire careers ahead of them, they abandoned Pompey to a man, and his audacious plot melted away like dew in the morning.
It is a handful of days later when the slave you sent to Scaevola to tell him about the plot appears face-down and naked in the Tiber, his body riddled with knife wounds. A thorough investigation of his corpse reveals no clues, but the message is clear -- Pompey knows, and he wants you to know he knows.
Such a blatant threat chills you to the bone, and you know that Pompey has friends and allies throughout the city. You are a mere nobilis of no great status -- even rock-faced Scaevola would shed no tears should you die in your sleep, and he has given you all the aid he can. No, you will have to protect yourself from this new threat, you decide.
Fingers of the Hand: 1d20 + 0 (Average Subterfuge) + 4 (Renowned Subterfuge -- Proserpina) + 2 (Proficient Espionage -- Proserpina) +1 (Intelligence Bonus) = 12
Needed: 10
Close Success
Bribery: 1d20 + 0 (Average Subterfuge) - 2 (Very Poor Stewardship) + 4 (Renowned Subterfuge -- Proserpina) = 13
Needed: 11
Problematic Success
Out Of Sight, Out Of Mind: 1d20 + 4 (Renowned Subterfuge -- Proserpina) +2 (Proficient Espionage -- Proserpina) = 19
Needed: 9
Epic Success
Needed: 10
Close Success
Bribery: 1d20 + 0 (Average Subterfuge) - 2 (Very Poor Stewardship) + 4 (Renowned Subterfuge -- Proserpina) = 13
Needed: 11
Problematic Success
Out Of Sight, Out Of Mind: 1d20 + 4 (Renowned Subterfuge -- Proserpina) +2 (Proficient Espionage -- Proserpina) = 19
Needed: 9
Epic Success
In Rome, the rose is a symbol of secrecy and intrigue, the sign of deeds best done in darkness and under cover of night. To speak of Roma sub rosa, "Rome under the rose", is to speak of the secrets and the shadows which lie rotting in the underbelly of this great city. It is to speak of the vast webs of conspiracy and influence spun by most every man of note in Rome. Your father was no stranger to these webs, and spun a few of his own in his day, aided principally by the demure and unassuming kitchen maid, Proserpina. Hailing from Pompeii, she has long had experience and knowledge with acts and deeds done in secret, and served as your father's principal agent in these matters.
You approach Proserpina about building a network to protect yourself from the enemies you seem to be quickly developing in Rome, and she takes to the task with a quiet eagerness that sets you back. Firstly, she takes you with her to the slave markets to purchase a new batch of slaves. However, she asks you to eschew traditional slave-buying practices. Instead of the tallest, the strongest, or the most handsome, she asks you to look for the quickest, the leanest, the smallest and quietest -- those who can move without being seen, or who simply do not draw the eye. Your untrained eyes cannot pick out much of what she suggests, but Proserpina and her years of experience are able to quickly select a good ten or eleven trustworthy slaves which you readily purchase.
These slaves, she says, will be the foundation of her network. They will move quietly through the city streets, unknown and unheard, and will report all that they hear and see back to her. In return, they are paid a small stipend with which they may eventually hope to buy their freedom, and which ties their loyalties to you.
Next, she begins to make inroads with those who, while not slaves, might be more than willing to offer up anything that crosses their ears -- for the right price, of course. She deals with innkeepers, prostitutes and street sweepers -- the sort of people everyone must deal with or pass by, no matter their status. All it takes is a few coins in the right hands to earn the promise of information, and Proserpina carefully sets it up so that your own name is never mentioned in the proceedings.
But of course, Proserpina's most valuable resource is Proserpina herself. Quiet, small, and demure, she is able to slip into any compound, villa, or temple, appearing to be only the meekest of slaves. She can slide into any kitchen in Rome and assume the place of a scullery maid or kitchen wench, someone unremarkable and hardly worthy of even a passing thought. It is in this way that she gathers her most important information, through gossip and banter and overheard conversations. Men of power have freer tongues around those they think will never betray them, and Proserpina is exceptionally skilled at making herself appear as such.
Within weeks she has erected a complicated network of blackmail, bribery, and loyalty which has men and women across Rome feeding her information on nearly everything that happens. While her 'web' is far from all-seeing or insurmountable, chances are you will hear of an attempt on your life long before it occurs. It is not foolproof, but you can sleep a little easier without the thought of Pompey's daggers glinting in the dark.
Your new ventures are not without cost, however. With your coffers running remarkably low after funding Proserpina's ventures, you decide to seek a way to bolster your faltering funds. Your father, a noted connoisseur of wines, owned a vineyard in the Roman countryside, some miles from your home. Trading and selling it made your family a pretty penny in the last days of your father's life, but you certainly do not have his skill with coin. You contact your steward, Mancina, in the hopes that he might be able to take over day-to-day management and sales, but he already has his hands full keeping your estate well-fed and properly run. He does, however, recommend a former associate of his, a Syrian by the name of Azamyin.
On his recommendation, you meet with this Azamyin, a tall man with pocked brown skin and a lilting, rhythmic manner of voice, at his estate in Rome and negotiate prices. After securing a fee which he finds acceptable, he agrees to take over the management of the vineyard, as well as the sale of it's products. He promises to increase your wealth tenfold, and while you are not sure you believe such exaggerations, you are more than happy to see your coin begin to increase once more.
In-between negotiating these matters, you continue to see to your few pastimes. Your skill with the blade continues to grow as you duel with Volero and his fellows in the Forum day after day. Whatever your feud with Pompey, they have obviously not heard of it, as your relationship with them only grows tighter with every day you cross blades with them. Volero in particular emerges as a friend of yours, taking every loss with the same crooked grin and joking excuse for his loss. There are a few times when he nearly lands you on your own ass, and you can tell his skill is slowly improving from association with you -- and yours from association with him.
As well, you attend more of the orations of Philo of Larissa. Alongside your newfound friend Atticus, you study and learn of many of the ideas and philosophies of the great Greek masters. The ideas you hear falling from the Greek's lips intrigue and interest you, and the more you think on them, the more sense they seem to make with the way you see the world.
On his recommendation, you meet with this Azamyin, a tall man with pocked brown skin and a lilting, rhythmic manner of voice, at his estate in Rome and negotiate prices. After securing a fee which he finds acceptable, he agrees to take over the management of the vineyard, as well as the sale of it's products. He promises to increase your wealth tenfold, and while you are not sure you believe such exaggerations, you are more than happy to see your coin begin to increase once more.
In-between negotiating these matters, you continue to see to your few pastimes. Your skill with the blade continues to grow as you duel with Volero and his fellows in the Forum day after day. Whatever your feud with Pompey, they have obviously not heard of it, as your relationship with them only grows tighter with every day you cross blades with them. Volero in particular emerges as a friend of yours, taking every loss with the same crooked grin and joking excuse for his loss. There are a few times when he nearly lands you on your own ass, and you can tell his skill is slowly improving from association with you -- and yours from association with him.
Combat XP (11 months) = 1d45000 + 1000 (Sparring with Volero) + 500 (Gift of Minerva) = 16991
Rank 9: 8,000 XP
(8991/9000) XP left to Rank 10
Rank 9: 8,000 XP
(8991/9000) XP left to Rank 10
As well, you attend more of the orations of Philo of Larissa. Alongside your newfound friend Atticus, you study and learn of many of the ideas and philosophies of the great Greek masters. The ideas you hear falling from the Greek's lips intrigue and interest you, and the more you think on them, the more sense they seem to make with the way you see the world.
November 9th, 86 BC668 Years After The Founding Of Rome
The Year of Cinna and Marius.
You stride along the raised podium, your voice raised in that booming manner in which Scaevola instructed you. It rings across the Forum, carrying your words and convictions over the stones of Rome. Your hands rise and fall quickly, enhancing your every point with a firm movement of your hands. The words falling from your lips are almost not your own -- you do not need to think of them, they simply fall from your lips, flowing from point to counterpoint like a river flows to the sea. Some higher spirit seems to fill your body, and your rhetoric strips your opponent's argument's bare, twists them around, and returns them to him barbed and pointed.
You have been debating men of knowledge and class for the last few months. With the skills Scaevola and Philo taught you, you quickly outstripped your peers, shaming and outright humbling men your age. Soon, almost none would debate you save the most skilled enthusiasts, and even then, cautiously. So great was your prowess that it attracted the attention of one of Rome's own great orators, a distinguished optimate and ex-Tribune by the name of Gaius Papirus Carbo. A skilled speaker and debater in his own right, you suppose he saw a chance to humble a student of the great Scaevola, and in so doing, increase his own renown.
If that was his dream, however, it has been sadly dashed. Today, you have risen above and beyond your own limits. When you speak, it is as if the very gods themselves speak through you. Your arguments are so firmly constructed and well-argued that he can muster no defense against them, and you speak so eloquently that the crowd has all but gathered simply to hear you speak. Your opponent is a skilled politician and orator in his own right, but lines of argument that might have won him victory in the Senate are unraveled and picked apart by you in a moment of seconds. At last, his face drawn and sunk with shame, Carbo concedes, hastily withdrawing himself from the podium as the watching crowd jeers and boos him.
The Debate: 1d20+2 (Accomplished Charisma) +2 (Accomplished Oratory) +1 (Gift of Minerva) = 24
Needed: 18
Rolz Room
Charisma XP Gained: 700
(700/10,000) XP to Rank 12
Oratory XP Gained: 700
(1,113/10,000) XP to Rank 11
Needed: 18
Rolz Room
Charisma XP Gained: 700
(700/10,000) XP to Rank 12
Oratory XP Gained: 700
(1,113/10,000) XP to Rank 11
As you watch the adoring crowd congratulate and cheer you, you realize with a start that you have just bested a senator, and an orator of some renown besides. As a man of no status or name to speak of, you have more than fulfilled Scaevola's directive to 'make a name for yourself'. Indeed, your name will be on many lips in the weeks to come, as one of the most skilled and proficient of this year's crop of aspiring Romans. Carbo was no Cato the Elder, but his name was well-respected around Rome, and besting him so utterly is sure to earn you laudation from all corners of the city.
(Reputation Increased: Rank 6: Noteworthy)
As you descend into the crowd, arms reach out to touch you and congratulate you, congratulations you meet with a smile and a nod. Men years your elder nod at you with respect and people you do not know grasp your hands in theirs.
At last, however, the crowd seems to part and dissipate, and you turn to make your way back to Scaevola's villa. As you do, however, a young man with an angular face and a mop of curly brown hair walks up to you. He is older than you, perhaps 20 or so, and from the way he carries himself, it seems apparent that he is no patrician. However, it is his eyes, like Scaevola's, which draw you the most. They are inquisitive and sharp, peering into your own as if trying to discern what secrets may lay behind them.
"It seems Atticus was not in error about your skills. I must then confess, I have done you wrong -- I did not believe one so young could be so skilled. Indeed, when I heard you were Scaevola's newest protege, I balked, fearing the position was not as prestigious as it once was." He circles around you, peering at you from all sides like an inventor examining a strange machine. Finally, he straightens and looks you in the face.
"But you are the genuine article, it seems, and it is thus my honor to make the acquaintance of what seems to be my only equal in this hellish city." The man reaches out and grasps your hand in greeting, a clasp you firmly return.
Finally, your tongue, so recently gifted, returns to you. "High praise from a man whose name I don't even know," you point out. "You are...?"
"You may call me Cicero, if you must call me anything at all. And unless I am much mistaken, you are Atellus of the Cingulii, a name I have heard all too frequently in Rome these days."
"Indeed, I am. And you, Cicero -- Scaevola speaks highly of you." You have indeed heard of this Cicero -- a student of Scaevola some years ago, he is perhaps the only student of which Scaevola speaks more highly than yourself. A former tribune and aspiring lawyer, he has taken a handful of cases which he has won handily, but in recent years has been forced to keep his neck down or risk losing it from association with Scaevola. "Would you return with me to Scaevola's villa? We can speak more there."
"But of course. The honor is mine. And Atticus tells me you have the most interesting views on Plato's Four Goods?"
The two of you launch into a quiet discussion about philosophy as you make your way up the winding hill to Scaevola's domus, your shadows falling long and far over the city behind you in the light of the setting sun.
VOTING
Philosophy
Your fascination with the philosophy and works of the Greeks has grown so great that you have become enamored with their ideas and philosophical concepts. In Rome, it is popular for the well-educated to adopt and live by one of the great Greek philosophies, and it is one of these philosophies which has so captured you. From this day on, you shall live life and see the world the way it dictates.
Cursus HonorumPhilosophy
Your fascination with the philosophy and works of the Greeks has grown so great that you have become enamored with their ideas and philosophical concepts. In Rome, it is popular for the well-educated to adopt and live by one of the great Greek philosophies, and it is one of these philosophies which has so captured you. From this day on, you shall live life and see the world the way it dictates.
[] Stoic: The Stoic Philosophy is more than just a philosophy -- it is a way of life. Most humans are creatures of flesh, controlled by instinct and emotion, easily swayed by greed and fear. To be logical, calculating, to be one with nature, to live a spartan life with few comforts and few pleasures, this is the way of the Stoic. The Stoic is not controlled by the world around him -- rather, he is the unmoving rock in the river of mankind, exerting change yet never being changed himself. Long the Greek philosophy most adored by the famously martial Romans, it was said to be the most favored philosophy of Alexander the Great himself.
[] Epicurianism: Life, at it's heart, is about pleasure, or so the Epicurians say. Called hedonists by the frail-minded, Epicurians seek the absence of fear and pain, pleasure's greatest enemies -- and, by extension, life's greatest enemies. Free from the blind superstition and mysticism of the other philosophies, Epicurians simply seek to make the most of life, to live modestly, to seek inner peace, and to gain true knowledge of the world around them. Epicurians are not gluttons or drunkards -- rather they are men who see the world as it is and seek to make the most of it.
[] Eclecticism: There are a thousand philosophies, each with their own merits and demerits. The Eclectic draws from them freely as he will, taking bits and pieces of each philosophy to adapt to his life as needed. He lives like the Stoic and sees the world like Aristotle, feasts like the Epicurian and studies like Plato. The jack-of-all-trades, he is not confined to dogma or rigid belief, but can instead adapt and modify his philosophy with the best parts of others. The modern brand of Ecleticism is relatively new, being in itself a combination of Stoicism and the views of Aristotle. It is popular among the intellectual classes in Greece, and has only recently begun to spread in Rome.
[] Write-In: Another philosophy of the ancients calls to you.
[] Epicurianism: Life, at it's heart, is about pleasure, or so the Epicurians say. Called hedonists by the frail-minded, Epicurians seek the absence of fear and pain, pleasure's greatest enemies -- and, by extension, life's greatest enemies. Free from the blind superstition and mysticism of the other philosophies, Epicurians simply seek to make the most of life, to live modestly, to seek inner peace, and to gain true knowledge of the world around them. Epicurians are not gluttons or drunkards -- rather they are men who see the world as it is and seek to make the most of it.
[] Eclecticism: There are a thousand philosophies, each with their own merits and demerits. The Eclectic draws from them freely as he will, taking bits and pieces of each philosophy to adapt to his life as needed. He lives like the Stoic and sees the world like Aristotle, feasts like the Epicurian and studies like Plato. The jack-of-all-trades, he is not confined to dogma or rigid belief, but can instead adapt and modify his philosophy with the best parts of others. The modern brand of Ecleticism is relatively new, being in itself a combination of Stoicism and the views of Aristotle. It is popular among the intellectual classes in Greece, and has only recently begun to spread in Rome.
[] Write-In: Another philosophy of the ancients calls to you.
Your first year in Rome draws to an end, and you have gained enough fame and respect in the city that, should you run for a position, you have a great chance of winning it. Of course, you could choose to take another to improve your skills and grow yourself -- another in which, of course, you may make yet more enemies.
[] Military Tribune: The post of military tribune, or commander, has long been the first stepping-stone on the path to recognition for any Roman man. The people of Rome are allowed to elect sixteen tribunes to the post each year, and the candidates are all young men of good standing around the age of 20 -- in a word, yourself. It will require all your skill and charisma to get elected over men with more beloved names, but it is a feat you are confident you can manage.
[] Broad-Striped Tribune: Five out of the six tribunes assigned to a legion are elected by the people, but the sixth, or broad-striped tribune, is assigned by the Senate. A young man of Senatorial or Patrician rank, he is afforded more respect and dignity than a normal tribune. You would have to appeal to Scaevola to argue on your behalf, but he is well-connected and powerful, increasing your chances of winning.
[] Staff Tribune: You could seek out a position in the staff of a legate or powerful commander. If you could win over such a commander (perhaps through the aid of your sponsor) you would become the aide to this commander, personally selected by him to aid him on and off the battlefield. Such firsthand experience of command could shape you into a true leader.
[] No Position: You will take another year. As you are still young, you can afford to try and build up a name for yourself before engaging in military service.
[] Broad-Striped Tribune: Five out of the six tribunes assigned to a legion are elected by the people, but the sixth, or broad-striped tribune, is assigned by the Senate. A young man of Senatorial or Patrician rank, he is afforded more respect and dignity than a normal tribune. You would have to appeal to Scaevola to argue on your behalf, but he is well-connected and powerful, increasing your chances of winning.
[] Staff Tribune: You could seek out a position in the staff of a legate or powerful commander. If you could win over such a commander (perhaps through the aid of your sponsor) you would become the aide to this commander, personally selected by him to aid him on and off the battlefield. Such firsthand experience of command could shape you into a true leader.
[] No Position: You will take another year. As you are still young, you can afford to try and build up a name for yourself before engaging in military service.
Sub Rosa
Proserpina has begun to set up your network, but to have spies, you must have someone to spy on. She can begin constructing a network of informants within several groups in Rome, each one potentially beneficial to you and your cause. Of course, the more esteemed the group, the more potential damage could be caused if your attempts were uncovered.
[] The Legions: Rome's most powerful men all have their powerbase in the legions, the iron-clad fists of the Republic that have built Roman power and influence for over a century. To have men within the legions is to have a finger on the pulse of Marius, Pompey, Sertorius, Cinna, and their sort, the great generals who hold the fate of Rome in their hands. You order Proserpina to begin looking for legionnaires and officers willing to take coin to pass along information.
[] The Aristocracy: The great parties and bacchanals thrown by Rome's patrician class all have one thing in common -- they are staffed and manned by slaves and servants, common people with common wants who might easily sell their eyes and ears for coin. Buying people inside the debauched festivals of Rome's mightiest offers a chance to earn valuable information which might be used for blackmail or manipulation.
[] The Priesthood: The height of political power, the priests are at once untouchable and mired in the corruption and filth of Roman politics. The most powerful, like Scaevola, are old and crafty politicians who have capped decades of scheming and politicking with a service in the priesthood, rendering them untouchable for their past deeds, whatever those may be. The College of Priests is vast, however, and the lowest-ranking and poorest priests may even be willing to listen in on their superiors for a nice bit of coin. Of course, should they be caught, the consequences might be disastrous.
[] Write-In: A person or people in Rome who you would like to leverage your coin towards spying on. Beware, however, the more powerful and influential they are, the greater the consequences of failure.
[] The Aristocracy: The great parties and bacchanals thrown by Rome's patrician class all have one thing in common -- they are staffed and manned by slaves and servants, common people with common wants who might easily sell their eyes and ears for coin. Buying people inside the debauched festivals of Rome's mightiest offers a chance to earn valuable information which might be used for blackmail or manipulation.
[] The Priesthood: The height of political power, the priests are at once untouchable and mired in the corruption and filth of Roman politics. The most powerful, like Scaevola, are old and crafty politicians who have capped decades of scheming and politicking with a service in the priesthood, rendering them untouchable for their past deeds, whatever those may be. The College of Priests is vast, however, and the lowest-ranking and poorest priests may even be willing to listen in on their superiors for a nice bit of coin. Of course, should they be caught, the consequences might be disastrous.
[] Write-In: A person or people in Rome who you would like to leverage your coin towards spying on. Beware, however, the more powerful and influential they are, the greater the consequences of failure.
There is now a TWELVE-HOUR MORATORIUM on all votes.
Use this time to discuss the choices available and create different Plans. As previously discussed, any votes not in plan form, or submitted before the moratorium is up, will not be counted.
As always, discussion is rewarded. (As are Omakes and Reaction posts.)
Use this time to discuss the choices available and create different Plans. As previously discussed, any votes not in plan form, or submitted before the moratorium is up, will not be counted.
As always, discussion is rewarded. (As are Omakes and Reaction posts.)
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- Location
- Classified
Well, we have to contend with Pompey, and the lack of rolls in the wine selling section is concerning with how low our stewardship is, but this was a good turn, all in all.
@Telamon , could you tell us what the mechanics for the other gifts would have been? I'm just curious.
I don't know enough to decide about the philosophies. Stoicism seems like the politically and financially safe option, while eclecticism seems like a way to duck the question entirely.
I feel like we might be good enough to take a swing at broad-stripe tribune, though I wouldn't be opposed to another year of training sequences.
As for spying, there's only one real option in my mind. We need to know what Pompey's up to, and find a way to deal with him. That will require the legions.
@Telamon , could you tell us what the mechanics for the other gifts would have been? I'm just curious.
I don't know enough to decide about the philosophies. Stoicism seems like the politically and financially safe option, while eclecticism seems like a way to duck the question entirely.
I feel like we might be good enough to take a swing at broad-stripe tribune, though I wouldn't be opposed to another year of training sequences.
As for spying, there's only one real option in my mind. We need to know what Pompey's up to, and find a way to deal with him. That will require the legions.
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Really tempted by staff Tribune, but broad-striped is the safer option. Definitely agree with spying on the Legions, as that is Pompey's powerbase. Not sure about the philosophy, though.