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Persona: HEAVEN (Persona/Sword Art Online/Isekai Multicross)

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Wolfyhuskydog said:
I have a question, we're there any farms near where Hiyori lived?
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No, she lived in a coastal town called Sumaru City.

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Sumaru City

Sumaru City (kanji: 珠閒瑠市) is the main setting to the Persona 2 duology. It's a fictional Japanese seaside city, with over 1.28 million people. In Innocent Sin, the player can access 5 total wards as the story progresses, with 1 added later in Eternal Punishment. You may be referring to: Sumaru...
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Underdog Emiya said:
Honestly? Not a bad plan if I say myself, though I have to point out LLENN is not listed in default actions, which makes me believe we can't order her until next turn.

However, what makes me doubt your plan is the talk write-in. It would probably work against other foes, but Kyouji right now is in what I would call a negative spiral. He may understand that he's the issue, but it's very likely he will hear one thing and twist it into a negative thing - which would, in fact, only worsen our situation. Remember, while Sinon did some bad things to Kyouji while under Death Gun's influence, there's a high-likelihood he already had thought of her as someone who saw her as less even before she got drunk on the Real Deal juice and, in canon, she still stood for him even after he tried to commit double suicide with her.

Now, he Awoke to his Persona. He understand that, in the end, much of his own issues come from himself...so why does his whole Social Link schtick is around people who think lesser of him? Even people who he never had contact with.

In the end, he's a brat. He is a brat who still doesn't understand what responsibility is, and tries to cling to his excuse that the others are the issue rather than face himself and would rather bring others to his level.

So let's be brutal. Let's be honest and tell exactly what we think of him. Because if there's something that really says that we are not connected, it's apathy.

Edit: Also, I think we only have our Personas snatched on attack. I'm not 100% sure of the wording, but it says 'Personas used against Kyouji.' Mithras, I feel, is pretty valuable with his buffs and his super, while Villefort is not as bad to lose.
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A fundamental mistake whenever dealing with someone like Kyouji is sinking to their level. We need to avoid doing that at all costs.

Also, by the same token of how you're interpreting the conditions for a Persona to be hijacked, we might NOT lose Mithras Liturgy this turn. As you've said, it only applies to Personas being used AGAINST Eulenspiegel, but:

A) Apathanatismos DISCONNECTS US FROM THE MAIN VISUALISER, which I imagine will render us immune to Persona-jacking for as long as we're disconnected.

B) In the context of using Apathanatismos, it doesn't actually DO anything to Eulenspeigel. It just renders US untouchable for a turn while giving US information.

Also, Villefort is good to use at a good opportunity but also among the WORST Personas to lose in this situation. FILTH degrades our ability to resist debuffs, and Villefort is centered around inflicting enemies with Poison. Even if hijacked Personas can't use Enhance Armament or Release Recollection, they still have access to ALL OF THEIR ABILITIES, INCLUDING PASSIVES. The last thing we need is for a Mapsio to poison the entire party. By contrast, even if we lose Mithras, Kyouji will gain access to its buffs, sure, but he can't really use them. He's not exactly a physical attacker, so Tarukaja is useless, and Masakukaja is redundant to him since he's already got a max AGI build. And its offensive abilities aren't anything we can't work around.
 
theguynamedwafer said:
A fundamental mistake whenever dealing with someone like Kyouji is sinking to their level. We need to avoid doing that at all costs.
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I agree with that. But, I don't know if we can go with your angle. We are good liars, sure, but lying doesn't work if there's no reason for him to believe us in the first place. Even if there's a shade of truth in that our past interactions and what he did is a genuinely impressive thing, I'm of the mind that Kyouji will twist anything we say to him in the worst possible manner. Again, a negative spiral...which would, in fact, enhance our "Link" with him. Pete is not an unfair QM by any means, but sometimes things simply go over our head because of things we can't predict.

...I have an idea. A terrible idea. Maybe, just maybe, we should counter to how we act usually and go full shonen on Kyouji's ass?
 
Yeah, I think mockery of Speigel is the exact last thing we want to do considering that his Persona ability, turning our Persona into Owlglass with its near-useless abilities, seems to metaphorically be about bringing us down to his level. Don't do the exact thing your enemy wants you to do!

[X] Talk: (write-in) Reductio Ad Absurdum
"You're right, Spiegel. We're all pieces of shit, every one of us, from time to time--you, me, your father, Sinon. But you don't really believe that, do you? The jeering faces you've made, all around you, they're...judging you, like they're on a higher position. If you really believed they were just as shit as you were, you wouldn't care how they thought about you so much! You know it just as well as I do, that even total shit has dreams, and can pull itself out of its hole, no matter what it's done!"

We're the protege of Nylarhotep. It makes sense that we should point out when our enemy's contradicting himself.
 
Unfortunately we don't have a source of purely ice like Urashima Taro or I'd suggest we could freeze the now swamp and possibly lock Kyouji and his Memories in place, at least temporarily. As is, I don't think there's any kind of elemental combo we can use with the swamp that would be helpful with this Persona lineup - we could poison it with Villefort because if Kyouji falls down like he has been while flailing around he's probably swallowing some of it... but given the water level it might be a danger to LLENN too. And electricity is a no-go because a good 3/4 of our party is likely to be in it at any given time - Sinon could grab one person, sure, but... well, I guess Gwen resists Elec and we can swap to Urvashi to null it while firing Zionga and have LLENN air-lifted out but... that seems a bit drastic for an opening move.

So I don't really have a great plan for what Hiyori should do with this Persona lineup. I guess I'd lean towards AoE spam like Alice with Megidola or Play With Me but that could be costly in SP. LLENN by contrast feels like her best bet for now is to use P-Chan Fire!/her basic attack. It ignores AGI and that seems to be Kyouji's main defensive stat? Hopefully? Or if we still want to win by defeating the Shadows it's still probably her best move since we have to build up HYPERSPEED. Gwen... probably attacks a Memory? The thing with Smoke Grenades is that it likely messes with Sinon attacking. Either a disadvantage on her rolls on visibility or definitely short-circuiting her Hawkeye bonus.

Sinon... the real big question I have is does Kyouji get to create another copy of her or did her destroying her Shadow/reversing the link mean she's "safe" for the rest of the battle? That has big implications for the rest of the fight - it suggests that a Persona can only get Eulenspiegel'd once and becomes effectively immune for the rest of the fight if freed. If she's safe I think area bind or bombardment are good plays. If she can get re-infected... probably not.

As for talking to Kyouji - agreed that insulting/mocking him will backfire and play into his worldview. We'd be validating his "we're all the same/shitty people in a shit world" stuff if we willingly "join the crowd" of his memories who are already jeering him. On the other hand, I think going all shonen "Kyouji-kun! You're right, this world sucks, but we can find the places that don't and the people who see us for us to make it a little better!" and hero-like won't work either - I think it comes off as too ingenuine and would just encourage him further to drag us down... like it's a step up from insulting him, I think, since if we won we'd contradict his position but bleh.

I was originally going to say, "just don't even engage with his philosophy, focus on the fight" but I think DrWalpurguisnacht is onto something there - pointing out the contradictions in his stated beliefs with what we're seeing might get us somewhere in unbalancing him.

afreaknamedpete said:
You are LLENN.
You have arrived.
And you want to go home right now.
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this is your life now karen
 
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[X] Plan Become More
-[X] "'We are all pieces of shit', you say...honestly, I can buy it."
--[X] "Like, my school is so bad with rumors that it's almost insane how no one attempted to commit suicide from bad words or something. Sinon? A bit of a bitch for a while, but that is mostly because of the whole Death Gun thing. BLANK and XeXeeD? Total jackasses! Seriously, it's all the population of Gun Gale Online composed of tryhards that happen to have their heads up their asses?!"
--[X] "But. But. If you really think that everyone is as shitty as you think you are...why bother? You know they're full of shit, that they look down at you as if they were any better. If you know that, why bother?"
--[X] "Maybe it's because you need something to not go crazy, not lose yourself. Or maybe...you wish you could be more. You dream of being more than just another face in the crowd, another Eusenspiegel in the crowd. Because...it appeared for you too, didn't it?"
-[X] Switch into Alice and cast Marakukaja to increase Vitality, then attempt to fire against the Memory of the Father.
-[X] Sinon will attempt to use Stun Needle at the maximum of enemies possible to Bind and Poison the most Memories possible. Avoid Kyouji, however. Meanwhile, Gwen will reposition silently to destroy Undine with some gun shots.

Alright, this is a bit different of my first plan. Attempting to use Walpurgis idea to attempt to get through his philosophy and try to expand it. From what we know in character, Kyouji had the potential of the Wild Card, so I think it makes sense to suppose that the Velvet Room may have been offered to him as well. And I also switched Kuro's actions to attempt to nail down the mechanics of the fight, and Alice, while having a good add-clear super, is also probably the Persona we can take on more easily if it's taken over as it has a Pierce weakness - so we can do the same thing we're doing to Undine.

And it also plays on one thing. We are being totally honest about what we're saying. No lies, just statements he agrees with. If his Social Links are formed with hatred, we'll attempt to go the opposite way and form a kinship. A true kinship...even if a brief one.
 
Alcor said:
Unfortunately we don't have a source of purely ice like Urashima Taro or I'd suggest we could freeze the now swamp and possibly lock Kyouji and his Memories in place, at least temporarily. As is, I don't think there's any kind of elemental combo we can use with the swamp that would be helpful with this Persona lineup - we could poison it with Villefort because if Kyouji falls down like he has been while flailing around he's probably swallowing some of it... but given the water level it might be a danger to LLENN too. And electricity is a no-go because a good 3/4 of our party is likely to be in it at any given time - Sinon could grab one person, sure, but... well, I guess Gwen resists Elec and we can swap to Urvashi to null it while firing Zionga and have LLENN air-lifted out but... that seems a bit drastic for an opening move.

So I don't really have a great plan for what Hiyori should do with this Persona lineup. I guess I'd lean towards AoE spam like Alice with Megidola or Play With Me but that could be costly in SP. LLENN by contrast feels like her best bet for now is to use P-Chan Fire!/her basic attack. It ignores AGI and that seems to be Kyouji's main defensive stat? Hopefully? Or if we still want to win by defeating the Shadows it's still probably her best move since we have to build up HYPERSPEED. Gwen... probably attacks a Memory? The thing with Smoke Grenades is that it likely messes with Sinon attacking. Either a disadvantage on her rolls on visibility or definitely short-circuiting her Hawkeye bonus.

Sinon... the real big question I have is does Kyouji get to create another copy of her or did her destroying her Shadow/reversing the link mean she's "safe" for the rest of the battle? That has big implications for the rest of the fight - it suggests that a Persona can only get Eulenspiegel'd once and becomes effectively immune for the rest of the fight if freed. If she's safe I think area bind or bombardment are good plays. If she can get re-infected... probably not.

As for talking to Kyouji - agreed that insulting/mocking him will backfire and play into his worldview. We'd be validating his "we're all the same/shitty people in a shit world" stuff if we willingly "join the crowd" of his memories who are already jeering him. On the other hand, I think going all shonen "Kyouji-kun! You're right, this world sucks, but we can find the places that don't and the people who see us for us to make it a little better!" and hero-like won't work either - I think it comes off as too ingenuine and would just encourage him further to drag us down... like it's a step up from insulting him, I think, since if we won we'd contradict his position but bleh.

I was originally going to say, "just don't even engage with his philosophy, focus on the fight" but I think DrWalpurguisnacht is onto something there - pointing out the contradictions in his stated beliefs with what we're seeing might get us somewhere in unbalancing him.


this is your life now karen
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I think Sinon gave us a pretty big hint of what to do.

afreaknamedpete said:
"You know what? I'm gotten really sick of hearing it! Day after day, you think I'm someone I'm not. I'm no lousy 'goddess' of yours. I'm no one special Shinkawa, none of us are. We're all doing our best, we're all struggling... and we're more than the caricatures you think we are!"
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All of Kyoji's Links are reversed and he gains power from those Reverse Links. More importantly he gains power from them being one-note that caricatures that exist to degrade him. What if we humanize them? Make Kyoji have to see them as something more multi-faceted than that. We definitely can't humanize people like his awful dad and the football team but it could work with others. Like, he sees XeXeeD as a jerk and that's true but he's also a person with enough basic decency to want to avenge a dead friend destroying his one-dimensional image of him which could either break or flip the link.

[X] Plan: A lesson in trickery
-[X] Write-in: Goad and suppress
-[X] Kuro action
--[X] Try to provoke Spiegel into dumping more FILTH onto you before dodging it using Apathanatismos.
-[X] Party actions
--[X] Have Gwen free Undine using her gun, not Daji, while trying not to reveal that Gwen has a Persona
--[X] Have Sinon attack Memory of the Champion with Kouga, manifesting the Luminous element however she pleases
--[X] Have LLEN attack Memory of the Father using her gun

[X] Talk: (write-in) Flip the Script
"You say that we're not so different, Spiegal? Your right. We both realized it when we studied and I pigged out on sweets and you thanked me for helping Sinon, when we were having a blast bitching about BLANK. That was all real to the two of us. But I'm also passing school, I have friends, I stopped Endou's bullying without killing her. Going by your own logic doesn't that mean you could have done it too? After all, we're the same!"

[X] Talk: (write-in) Reductio Ad Absurdum
"You're right, Spiegel. We're all pieces of shit, every one of us, from time to time--you, me, your father, Sinon. But you don't really believe that, do you? The jeering faces you've made, all around you, they're...judging you, like they're on a higher position. If you really believed they were just as shit as you were, you wouldn't care how they thought about you so much! You know it just as well as I do, that even total shit has dreams, and can pull itself out of its hole, no matter what it's done!"

I'll also back Walpurgis' write-in since it covers the same points I'm trying to cover.


It's also not a wall of text that can feasibly be said in a fight. Remember the OBERON fight. We can't waste all our ammo on the first turn to let him brace himself for the same material later. We have to wear him down over time.
 
[X] Talk: (write-in) Flip the Script
"You say that we're not so different, Spiegal? Your right. We both realized it when we studied and I pigged out on sweets and you thanked me for helping Sinon, when we were having a blast bitching about BLANK. That was all real to the two of us. But I'm also passing school, I have friends, I stopped Endou's bullying without killing her. Going by your own logic doesn't that mean you could have done it too? After all, we're the same!"
 
[X] Plan: A lesson in trickery
-[X] Write-in: Goad and suppress
-[X] Kuro action
--[X] Try to provoke Spiegel into dumping more FILTH onto you before dodging it using Apathanatismos.
-[X] Party actions
--[X] Have Gwen free Undine using her gun, not Daji, while trying not to reveal that Gwen has a Persona
--[X] Have Sinon attack Memory of the Champion with Kouga, manifesting the Luminous element however she pleases
--[X] Have LLEN attack Memory of the Father using her gun

[X] Talk: (write-in) Reductio Ad Absurdum

Undecided on battle strategy at the moment. I don't have any particular issues with Lesson in Trickery I'm just being weird about using the Mithras Liturgy hint button as a near-opener (which is is also hypocritical of me because if this were like an actual video game it's what I would open every single fight with it lol)

I think using it as an evasion tactic is solid but that just makes me wonder if we couldn't find ways to synergize that with other Persona skills - like Alice's Play With Me directs aggro to us for 2 scenes. If we open with that and then evade out of it with Apathanatismos on one scene and idk switch to Paladin for the second to take advantage of the free attack passive on closing enemies along with whatever actual skill we use. That kind of thing.
 
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@afreaknamedpete you talked about what would be robo Kirito's skills in a past update. I have to wonder, did you have any special mechanics planned for Kyouji? Can you at least comment if this fight is based on such mechanics? No need for deeper details if you do not wish to give them.
 
afreaknamedpete said:
The ground is soaked in sewage, and everything smells like a clogged toilet. Kuro's standing there screaming about something. She seems to like screaming.
Sinon is glowing like an overloaded lava lamp in midair. Not even using a jetpack like the one time Pito showed you hers!
There's weird brown goo people standing around— wait are they laughing!? What kind of mob was this!?

And what's that weirdo doing!? He's just running around spewing stuff everywhere? Is that blood? It's not the right color and it's way too thick. Wait, no, is that—

​
You are LLENN.
You have arrived.
And you want to go home right now.
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LLENN has arrived to a truly shitty situation.
 
theguynamedwafer said:
Also, is range not a mechanic this fight because of how the Velvet Room is allowing Personas to manifest directly? I notice that no range has been given for any combatant.
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Just an oversight. The phantoms don't move, so they're all where they were last update. Undine mud version would be close.

Underdog Emiya said:
@afreaknamedpete you talked about what would be robo Kirito's skills in a past update. I have to wonder, did you have any special mechanics planned for Kyouji? Can you at least comment if this fight is based on such mechanics? No need for deeper details if you do not wish to give them.
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I'd love to say I had something special but I really didn't, largely the mechanics would've stayed similar and you would get normal SLs, though your SAO character SLs would've been with obscure ones (Recon would've been your first). I had things planned out only up through the Persona reveal. Kyouji as Eulenspiegel was absolutely set in stone, since it fits him really well and tied into his character arc which was basically about trying to un blackpill himself, and accepting that choices matter. His Persona reveal would've been him accepting to a very small extent that he's a pos to unlock his Persona. It wouldn't have been as disgusting but Eulenspiegel as a scatological trickster was the core idea behind his Persona. I also went out of my way to ensure LAPLACE's insults where hyperfocused on shit and poop references.

The stuff in this fight was mostly just invented wholesale, I wanted a surprise Wildcard fight that actually used SL mechanics against you.
 
Another thing, @afreaknamedpete. Judging by how you handled the KING of SWORDS link, it seems there are alternate candidates for some of our arcanas. Is there any problem in asking if any of our past Arcanas also had alternate candidates to it (again, no need to answer it, though I'm curious if my guess that Eiji would be the alternate SWORD holder hit true)
 
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