- Location
- The Beach
We are. Slowly but surely!
What's this again? I am completely blanking on it.
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)
- Thread starter inverted_helix
- Start date
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
@Kinematics How comes your plan?
@inverted_helix if Elder Haman's plan wins, will the beholder fight be an automatic interturn event, or will we need to vote to do it come next turm?
@inverted_helix if Elder Haman's plan wins, will the beholder fight be an automatic interturn event, or will we need to vote to do it come next turm?
Umm, I guess I could do that.
Yeah honestly it's kind of disappointing to take this long between posts. Though I'm a total hypocrite to say that.
It's definitely encouraging me on the route towards simplifying actions down to a slot system instead of a manpower system, though I'm not sure how I'd go about doing that. It would make it so much easier for people to compose plans though.
I'd let him include it as automatically happening, but it might be better to have a second vote for it then.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
- Location
- The Beach
Here seems to be @Elder Haman's draft plan, though mentioned here he may still have stuff to do.
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM) | Page 391
Here's @boonerunner's plan
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM) | Page 387
And here's @Kinematics's, though it looks like it hasn't been updated from the discussion since
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM) | Page 381
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM) | Page 391
Here's @boonerunner's plan
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM) | Page 387
And here's @Kinematics's, though it looks like it hasn't been updated from the discussion since
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM) | Page 381
Sorry, been crazy with both finishing the house I'm building, job hunt, and holidays. And I got to do a bunch of cleaning and packing now.
I might be able to do something this week though.
I might be able to do something this week though.
Okay, so one of the major remaining items we need to come up with is a draft plan for attacking the Eyeball.
I would very much appreciate feedback and suggested changes, as we need this to be a very good plan. Also, any assumptions or questions that we ought to add to the scouting plan would also be useful (and will probably depend on our draft attack plan).
I can only come up with three possible approaches:
Approach #1: Elite force to trap it, followed by all out attack
Basically the plan would unfold like this:
1: Identify location/time/situation that is to our best advantage (ie fewer or weaker companions, etc).
2: Initial Capture Force consisting of elites only carries the interdiction device into range of the Eyeball.
-- This group would consist of:
Kyouko and Kyoclone (to provide tandem stealth to buy us as much time as possible)
Taya (to provide tracking of the Eyeball)
Risa (in charge of powering and controlling the interdiction device)
Mami (active defense)
Potentially additional elites if available from other groups, particularly desirable an additional clairvoyant, and additional barrier girls.
-- The tactic would be to approach the Eyeball until within the outer range of the interdiction device. Activate the device, and then prevent the Eyeball from either moving outside the device range, or from moving close enough to the Initial Capture Force to engage it. Basically a game of running away, or running after it depending on what the Eyeball decides to do. Potentially if an engagement is forced adopting a delaying tactic if reinforcements are close enough.
3: Main Strike Force teleports just outside the Eyeball/device interdiction range, and rush into attack the Eyeball.
-- First wave would consist of Serena & Co.
-- Close behind would be something like seven teams of six Serene veterans each (probably a mixture of 2 barrier girls, a healer, and then 3 additional girls) for a total of 42 girls. Add one of the Tokyo girls to each group to help serve as a guide (in case it's needed, even though it probably wont).
-- Team(s) of elites from Nagoya
-- Any supporting teams from other magical girl groups joining us in the attack
Serena & Co would attack the Eyeball
Two Veteran groups each would be assigned to each companion of the Eyeball (if any).
One of the Veteran teams would move to relive the Initial Capture Force, allowing Kyouko, Kyoclone, Taya, and Mami to break off and join the attack on the Eyeball/companions. Acting as a reserve force providing support to any group that needs it.
Any remaining veteran teams will join in the attack on the Eyeball
Teams from other adjoining magical girl groups would join in the initial attack on the Eyeball
4: Once Eyeball is killed, kill any surviving companions, collect the winnings, and then retreat
Benefits of this approach are that we will have the initiative, and get to choose the time, place, and circumstances. Additionally, it does not require the exposed force to actually engage the enemy prior to Serena's arrival (though it will be difficult to avoid engagement).
Negatives include that it means exposing virtually all our elites and command structure to decapitation.
Approach #2: Attack with Serena leading the force
Basically this would be similar to Approach #1, but instead of an Initial Capture Team, we would embed Risa in with Serena & Co. Serena's team would then move to engage the Eyeball, as soon as it is in range, Risa would activate the device, and then we would teleport everyone else in , and the rest of the plan plays out like Approach #1.
Basically this assumes that the Eyeball will not immediately flee when he sees Serena coming for him. Benefit is that we don't have our elites entirely exposed to the aura without Serena's protection.
Approach #3: We bait the Eyeball into attacking an exposed group of girls
1: We have a group of girls hunting, similar to last turn. They have the interdiction device. The entire strike force is on standby to support them.
2: When the Eyeball teleports on top of them they activate the device and try to flee. Meanwhile the Main Strike Force teleports in and attack similar to approach #1.
Benefits: Can't really see any
Negatives include that the bait will almost certainly be killed. We also will not be able to pick the circumstances, place, or time, giving the initiative to the Eyeball.
What are peoples thoughts?
Right now I lean towards some variation of Approach #1.
I would very much appreciate feedback and suggested changes, as we need this to be a very good plan. Also, any assumptions or questions that we ought to add to the scouting plan would also be useful (and will probably depend on our draft attack plan).
I can only come up with three possible approaches:
Approach #1: Elite force to trap it, followed by all out attack
Basically the plan would unfold like this:
1: Identify location/time/situation that is to our best advantage (ie fewer or weaker companions, etc).
2: Initial Capture Force consisting of elites only carries the interdiction device into range of the Eyeball.
-- This group would consist of:
Kyouko and Kyoclone (to provide tandem stealth to buy us as much time as possible)
Taya (to provide tracking of the Eyeball)
Risa (in charge of powering and controlling the interdiction device)
Mami (active defense)
Potentially additional elites if available from other groups, particularly desirable an additional clairvoyant, and additional barrier girls.
-- The tactic would be to approach the Eyeball until within the outer range of the interdiction device. Activate the device, and then prevent the Eyeball from either moving outside the device range, or from moving close enough to the Initial Capture Force to engage it. Basically a game of running away, or running after it depending on what the Eyeball decides to do. Potentially if an engagement is forced adopting a delaying tactic if reinforcements are close enough.
3: Main Strike Force teleports just outside the Eyeball/device interdiction range, and rush into attack the Eyeball.
-- First wave would consist of Serena & Co.
-- Close behind would be something like seven teams of six Serene veterans each (probably a mixture of 2 barrier girls, a healer, and then 3 additional girls) for a total of 42 girls. Add one of the Tokyo girls to each group to help serve as a guide (in case it's needed, even though it probably wont).
-- Team(s) of elites from Nagoya
-- Any supporting teams from other magical girl groups joining us in the attack
Serena & Co would attack the Eyeball
Two Veteran groups each would be assigned to each companion of the Eyeball (if any).
One of the Veteran teams would move to relive the Initial Capture Force, allowing Kyouko, Kyoclone, Taya, and Mami to break off and join the attack on the Eyeball/companions. Acting as a reserve force providing support to any group that needs it.
Any remaining veteran teams will join in the attack on the Eyeball
Teams from other adjoining magical girl groups would join in the initial attack on the Eyeball
4: Once Eyeball is killed, kill any surviving companions, collect the winnings, and then retreat
Benefits of this approach are that we will have the initiative, and get to choose the time, place, and circumstances. Additionally, it does not require the exposed force to actually engage the enemy prior to Serena's arrival (though it will be difficult to avoid engagement).
Negatives include that it means exposing virtually all our elites and command structure to decapitation.
Approach #2: Attack with Serena leading the force
Basically this would be similar to Approach #1, but instead of an Initial Capture Team, we would embed Risa in with Serena & Co. Serena's team would then move to engage the Eyeball, as soon as it is in range, Risa would activate the device, and then we would teleport everyone else in , and the rest of the plan plays out like Approach #1.
Basically this assumes that the Eyeball will not immediately flee when he sees Serena coming for him. Benefit is that we don't have our elites entirely exposed to the aura without Serena's protection.
Approach #3: We bait the Eyeball into attacking an exposed group of girls
1: We have a group of girls hunting, similar to last turn. They have the interdiction device. The entire strike force is on standby to support them.
2: When the Eyeball teleports on top of them they activate the device and try to flee. Meanwhile the Main Strike Force teleports in and attack similar to approach #1.
Benefits: Can't really see any
Negatives include that the bait will almost certainly be killed. We also will not be able to pick the circumstances, place, or time, giving the initiative to the Eyeball.
What are peoples thoughts?
Right now I lean towards some variation of Approach #1.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
The best way to counter this, that comes to mind for me at least, is to use tandem stealth charms instead of Kyoko and leave kyoko at home to take over the organization if Mami dies.
I also favor Approach 1, considering how short the work the Beholder was making of our hunting group last time. #2 also has the problem of it not actually definitely causing a confrontation.
That said, I'm not sure your approaches are exhaustive. There would also be an approach where we lead in with Mami, Risa, and Serena, with the elites in the second wave and vets in the third wave, instead of "elites, Serena, Vets". This would have the benefit of not having our elites exposed to the unaltered effects of the miasma, but has the potential downside of leaving a window for the Eyeball to flee.
I must admit I'd mentally classified this as dead from lack of interest when it went over a month with no plan.
Was considering either starting a simpler quest or retooling this one with an action slot system (Either the open slot systems you see in some, or the common CK2 version), because it seemed obvious this got too hard.
Was considering either starting a simpler quest or retooling this one with an action slot system (Either the open slot systems you see in some, or the common CK2 version), because it seemed obvious this got too hard.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
It was just too much effort to put together a decent plan, yeah. A retool would be awesome, but I imagine it would make people feel like all the effort they put in was 'wasted' when things just abstracted out.
- Location
- The Beach
Favoring Approach 1 on that, as I think the Beholder will scram if Serena jumps in first. Approach 3 might work, if the Beholder was closer to animal intelligence, but it's not.
Steps could be taken to mitigate damage to our leadership structure, but it's going to be a risk no matter what given the most powerful Meguca tend to be in leadership positions.
A problem I can see with Approach 1 is that the Beholder will be able to detect us on approach, and may send any demons to slow or kill us if it wants to escape, or tire us before it attacks. We may only be able to force an engagement once it depletes its underlings. Not exactly a terrible outcome as we would be culling demons we would need to kill anyway, but getting tired before the main engagement would not be good.
Hmm, perhaps a solution if that happens would be to teleport in the main attack group on the far side of the Beholder from the Elite force, catching it in a pincer maneuver where it would either need to move closer to it's underlings for protection or teleport out/try to escape, or risk an engagement.
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Tandem stealth charms are useless in this scenario as they do not produce a constant output. Charms are currently only instants.
Additionally, it would make more sense to leave Mami behind than Kyouko, as Mami is less essential than any of the other Elites we are sending (though I still would not want to leave her behind, too high risk without her).
Finally, I'd guess that Seto Tomoe (who we are leaving behind), rather than Kyouko, has the best chance of holding the group together.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Ah. In that case I can't think of any real ways to mitigate the danger. We need mami for CnC in Serena's aura, and we need both kyoko's for tandem stealth.
I am willing to vote for Approach 1.
- Location
- A friendly desert community
I may not that active but i would hate to this die. It's one of my favorite quests. I'd also be willing to vote for Approach 1.
Okay... so it seems that most people are for Approach #1.
Is it worth doing something during the scouting to see if Approach #2 (Serena going first) is plausible?
It seems kind of difficult to test because of the need to teleport Serena's team all at the same time, plus dealing with the Eyeball's interdiction field.
Is it worth doing something during the scouting to see if Approach #2 (Serena going first) is plausible?
It seems kind of difficult to test because of the need to teleport Serena's team all at the same time, plus dealing with the Eyeball's interdiction field.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I am in favor of that. I may be biased, but I think that if 2 can be pulled off it has slightly better chances of fewer casualties than 1.
These are some good preliminary ideas, but I would want to hold off on making any concrete plans until after the scouting efforts are completed. That way we will have more concrete information with which to make the plan.
Currently this thread is hibernating due to becoming too complex for players to realistically develop plans for. As the lack of a completed plan in the past 2 months indicates most soundly. If there was a fully completed plan I could have likely written it up by now.
I'm planning to develop a new action slot based system for it, but it may be a while before that happens, and I'm finding it difficult to know what mechanics I can cut and what I can keep while switching over as my system allowed for far more fine control over everything than any action slot system really ever could.
The bigger factor is part of my goal with this quest was to push the modeling of reality far tighter than the average empire quest. I like to think I was very successful, unfortunately that bit both ways and eventually destroyed it.
The second factor is that I simply have no clue how I can convert this to the traditional slot system without utterly wrecking everything. I've been quietly soliciting help in that, and now not so quietly.
I'm planning to develop a new action slot based system for it, but it may be a while before that happens, and I'm finding it difficult to know what mechanics I can cut and what I can keep while switching over as my system allowed for far more fine control over everything than any action slot system really ever could.
It's not wasted, I like to think that this system lasted far more turns than most empire quests. I mean most empire quests seem to die by turn 10 or so. This system I managed to hold together for 35. So their plans are no more wasted than in the many many dead quests. That's not really a factor in why I put it off so long.
The bigger factor is part of my goal with this quest was to push the modeling of reality far tighter than the average empire quest. I like to think I was very successful, unfortunately that bit both ways and eventually destroyed it.
The second factor is that I simply have no clue how I can convert this to the traditional slot system without utterly wrecking everything. I've been quietly soliciting help in that, and now not so quietly.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
There's a few ways you could go. The first is simply shaving off the individual granularity; acquiring girl-hours in certain flat or linearly rising thresholds grants additional slots. This falls under the issue of a certain amount of wastage cube gain, though.
The next idea would be to use split departments as unique votes, where your total girl-hours can be split by percentages between them. (An example would be that 'cube hunting' is allocated X% of total hours available, netting a certain 'minimum return' value based on the number put in, and the monthly hunting plan adds some modifiers, one for safety, one for a return % increase, one for DS increases). Veteran/Elite bonuses could be applied in the same way general girl-hours are applied.
I could go for more, but 'department funding' abstraction seems like it would reduce the most amount of work, but keep the highest amount of granularity. Merely not having access to each individual girl-hour would turn a lot of the plan trouble down.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I'd object, but yeah, the evidence is pretty insurmountable at this point. As soon as Haman and Kine stopped keeping on top of things no one else could really make plans.
I honestly didn't really want to, but it's become obvious it's either that or let the quest die entirely. And I did consider that option because I do have other quest ideas I could start that would be far simpler to manage. (Though probably in 35 turns I'd end up in same position knowing myself, but that would be future me's problem :lol).
I'm not sure that an action slot system would fundamentally work with the ideas and structure of this quest. However, I definitely agree that it has grown far too complex for its own good, and some things need to be abstracted out.
Remember back when I could have plans that would be like 10 lines long and the rest was basically fluff? I think there were two things that really made it crazy.
1) Narrative complexity. Making us actually figure out exact tactics and plans and everything meant that there was a lot of discussion and guessing about unknown unknowns, we couldn't just throw megucamonths at the project until it broke. We're fighting a war and deciding tactics and strategies and doing a ton more diplomacy- and the diplomacy isn't "here's our offer. Join us?" instead it's like actually doing complex deals and trades.
2) Mechanical complexity. The massive refugee influx meant that suddenly we couldn't just think in terms of 'green->vet->elite', instead we had a complex system of who had what training, who is a member and who's on loan to us, etc. etc. This added massive complexity, a relatively simple 3-tier system becoming a massive table of who gets which bonuses and restrictions.
I think the fundamental system was sound, but you kept on adding to it. Each addition needed to abstract something else away or else the complexity just balloons- and now we have a mess that no one can fully understand. It used to be optimizing our hunting plans followed by assigning what's left to the very limited list of possibilities. Now, it's a monster.
So, my personal suggestion? Abstract away as much as you can. Make the table back into a list, perhaps with a fourth 'untrained' tier. Reduce the need for the questers to make complex battle plans and give us example options to choose from. Perhaps even abstract away the entire DS system and just give us 3-4 different options to choose from which have corresponding meguca costs and cube gains. (and then things like armor and training are abstracted away into direct bonuses to those options) Perhaps simplify the diplomacy system, if you can figure out how.
A CK2 style system IMHO doesn't make sense with what you have here, but there definitely needs to be some simplification.
Remember back when I could have plans that would be like 10 lines long and the rest was basically fluff? I think there were two things that really made it crazy.
1) Narrative complexity. Making us actually figure out exact tactics and plans and everything meant that there was a lot of discussion and guessing about unknown unknowns, we couldn't just throw megucamonths at the project until it broke. We're fighting a war and deciding tactics and strategies and doing a ton more diplomacy- and the diplomacy isn't "here's our offer. Join us?" instead it's like actually doing complex deals and trades.
2) Mechanical complexity. The massive refugee influx meant that suddenly we couldn't just think in terms of 'green->vet->elite', instead we had a complex system of who had what training, who is a member and who's on loan to us, etc. etc. This added massive complexity, a relatively simple 3-tier system becoming a massive table of who gets which bonuses and restrictions.
I think the fundamental system was sound, but you kept on adding to it. Each addition needed to abstract something else away or else the complexity just balloons- and now we have a mess that no one can fully understand. It used to be optimizing our hunting plans followed by assigning what's left to the very limited list of possibilities. Now, it's a monster.
So, my personal suggestion? Abstract away as much as you can. Make the table back into a list, perhaps with a fourth 'untrained' tier. Reduce the need for the questers to make complex battle plans and give us example options to choose from. Perhaps even abstract away the entire DS system and just give us 3-4 different options to choose from which have corresponding meguca costs and cube gains. (and then things like armor and training are abstracted away into direct bonuses to those options) Perhaps simplify the diplomacy system, if you can figure out how.
A CK2 style system IMHO doesn't make sense with what you have here, but there definitely needs to be some simplification.
Well...
For the regular turns I think we do have complete plans.
The problem is that we have this long arc of mini-turns and combat.
Combat plans are what take up the most time to decide on actually. Partially because we are trying to get as close to zero mortality as possible (making it a very high stakes decision), but also because the regular turns and the combat turns are so heavily integrated that you have to change and modify both as a synchronous decision.
The actual regular turns aren't that difficult to do, as I think we actually have three different complete plans written up for this turn. They are more time consuming than action slots, but not difficult. We just don't have the combat plans written, or the plans for scouting (for the combat).
So basically I think you are trying to fix something that is not the actual cause of the slow down.
For the regular turns I think we do have complete plans.
The problem is that we have this long arc of mini-turns and combat.
Combat plans are what take up the most time to decide on actually. Partially because we are trying to get as close to zero mortality as possible (making it a very high stakes decision), but also because the regular turns and the combat turns are so heavily integrated that you have to change and modify both as a synchronous decision.
The actual regular turns aren't that difficult to do, as I think we actually have three different complete plans written up for this turn. They are more time consuming than action slots, but not difficult. We just don't have the combat plans written, or the plans for scouting (for the combat).
So basically I think you are trying to fix something that is not the actual cause of the slow down.