Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

What should I do regarding a change in system?

  • Notgreat's proposed simplification of hunting, leave rest intact.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Chapter system vastly simplifying everything.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .
Responses to page 388:


@inverted_helix Can our Teleporter Girls feel anything from the Device, beside if they try to teleport?
Independent of whether it's on or off they can get a feel for it being magical. And the battery is much more so.

I thought the Eyeball shot the Girl with the Device, not that he ate her.:confused:
Because this is a PG-13 board you won't see much viscera in this quest. You can just assume dying inside miasma zone counts as close enough for demons to eat your power.

The damage to the artifact does not match the situation where the charge is simply worn down.
This is correct. Normally it running out of power it just shuts down, it's still magical at that point, and can still be easily recharged. This was different.

unless we know Ayase would be safe. Are humans even safe around the Eyeball?
Safe is a relative term, she won't die immediately, humans aren't pulled into miasma in the same way that magical girls are. She'd still be in normal space, and at major depression/apathy levels, but still far less dangerous to her than the populace with constant exposure.

Our rolls were horrible last turn
Honestly the end of turn hunting kind of leveled out your rolls. The very high rolls for most days of Youma not interfering at all. Then at the end Kyoclone's absurd string of rolls for someone that should have died way faster in that situation. With more average rolls it should have been more along the lines of one person out of the party living, rather than 3.

Ah Ha! I have found an answer to the question of demons detecting the device.
The first bit of it being able to be physically destroyed was a bit of a twist based on what people asked, rather than perhaps what they meant. As you could see in this case where demons actually got it, they didn't physically destroy it, but players asked if they could.

Perhaps you have been missing the point that that is exactly what Nagoya has been doing to refugees.
I should point out at this point that Nagoya originally did it as a voluntary offer to the meguca in Tokyo. That's separate from the rumors (at least I think they were just rumors) that they've done it by force on some of the refugees. I don't think you were confusing this, but it's worth making it clear.

If @inverted_helix will permit splitting the month. Then we could hunt up to ~ DS 8 in the South using trained greens in packs the first two weeks. The second half of the month hunting up to DS16 with trained vets in packs w/ max charms. (I think, I might need to recheck my numbers, but it's late and time for me to go to bed.)
Hmm to a degree we use fungible meguca time units, but compressing their monthly hours like that would be kind of hitting the realism level of the quest pretty hard. Not sure.

What do players think about that from a realism perspective?

Also, i agree with Haman on the stasis issue. Too much of an emotional hot-button. I sure as hell wouldn't accept.
As a moderate level transhumanist myself, I find that part of my enjoyment in this quest is seeing how people react to certain issues. It's very different from how I would for instance.

I suppose that the Nagoya thing isn't quite a shoo-in, but I am assigning Mami to the task of convincing them that it's a good idea, and they are predisposed towards hunting Youma in Tokyo as long as the plan of attack is sound.
You can expect at least 5 elites from Nagoya as long as the plan of attack is sound. If you negotiate a bit more you might be able to knock lose a couple more. Though this does depend on the plan of attack. If it's stupid and suicidal, or perceived that way, then it's less assured you'd even get the five.
 
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Awesome... this is the kind of discussion I think we need to have.

However, I do think you are interpreting the "ambush" plan to narrowly. It shouldn't even require stealth, though stealth would be very very beneficial to it.

Basically it's a lead element that moves in close enough to put the Eyeball inside the radius of the interdiction device, so that when the main strike team of 50 girls show up, that the Eyeball cannot run away.

Maybe that's better described as a feint?

Anyway, the point is that the lead group doesn't have to actually engage the Eyeball (in fact preferably not) instead it would just need to keep the Eyeball inside the radius of the interdiction device.

That's why I said the ideal group would be:

Kyouko
Kyoclone (for tandem Elite Stealth to try and buy us more time)
Risa (running the interdiction device)
Taya (so that they can make sure the Eyeball stays inside the interdiction radius, and yet also try to stay out of range)
Mami (Barrier/Protection)
Ah, that makes a bit more sense from that perspective. It seems like there's a pretty good chance of that turning into the lure plan though, since basically the only difference in the initial setup is that the lure group will be moving towards the beholder; so there should be prep for both possibilites.

Also, considering that in dangerous game, the beholder was close enough to fire on the girls without entering the interdiction range, thinking that combat can be avoided seems unrealistic.
As a moderate level transhumanist myself, I find that part of my enjoyment in this quest is seeing how people react to certain issues. It's very different from how I would for instance.
Actually, my objection is more of a trust thing. I think the stasis thing is pretty cool, but I can count the number of people i'd trust with taking care of me in that state on my hands.


Finally, as a side thing, any ideas on how we might improve Serena's arrival time? My thoughts basically boiled down to a few half-baked plans involving Akeno. Also, in the realm of total trivia, what exactly is Serena's weapon? Not sure if it was ever mentioned.
 
The Device always contains Magic, so the Beholder can always feel it. If we set it up so that the interdiction device activates if the Beholder teleports on top of it, with some electronic parts that activate the Device if they fail/get into Miasma, we coud use it to keep the Yoma there. If it doesn't run away by foot.
We talk about Nanoha Devices in this thread so much that on seeing capitalized Device my mind goes elsewhere. Pretty unrelated comment, but was worth commenting.

Hmm interesting idea though. I was originally going to say again that electronics don't work in the miasma, but you accounted for that a bit. I guess with a little rigging you could make a device that presses a button when it stops working, rather than the device being made to directly press a button on some command.

We wanted to research lures, but never managed to get them working.
Admittedly the quest is a bit long and convoluted at this point but I don't remember you guys ever actually beginning a research project on Lures. It was something that was suggested, but I said it would be a significant research project and then it kind of got buried under other priorities.

Methods of defense:

1) Tanking - Not usable. Tanking a hit is essentially an instant kill.
2) Evasion - Limited. Attack beams are nearly instant, and line-of-sight.
3) Shielding - One-time use per shield, but only currently effective means known. Need lots of constantly generated shields.
4) Diversion - Unknown, unlikely. Clairvoyance is likely to trump distraction elements. Possible use for adds. Minor options with smoke bombs/flash grenades/etc.
5) Nullification (remove attacks' effect) - No known method.
6) Negation (remove ability to attack) - Possible. Value depends on rate of attrition vs rate of healing. Focus on one area for greatest effect.
This looks like some standard method of defense list, it's actually kind of interesting in covering just about every method I can think of. It looks standard because you include stuff you have no known method for.

I should point out evasion was a large part of what Kyoclone was doing though. It was viable to a degree. I was perhaps bad at showing this, but at the ranges Kyoclone kept things at she was dodging quite a few beam attacks. Imperfect, but most defenses are. It's not lightspeed beams, very fast, but not lightspeed.

Well, instant to the same degree as a gunshot, with a bit of Hollywood dodging for the faster meguca,
This is more accurate than true instant.

Emotions are primarily designed to keep us alive and well. We fear things that are dangerous (and are motivated to avoid them). We enjoy things that are beneficial (and are motivated to seek them out). We get angry at things that are wrong (and are motivated to fix them). We are ashamed of behaviors that are harmful (and are motivated to stop doing them). We are disgusted by things that are unhealthy (and are motivated to avoid them). We are saddened by harms that occur to ourselves and others (and are motivated to prevent such harms). Unfortunately, the entire spectrum of human emotion can be confusing because different emotions come into conflict with one another and emotions are often felt at a level that is disproportionate to the action that should be the result. But the purpose of the whole system is to encourage behaviors that are beneficial and to discourage behaviors that are harmful. When it works the other way around, then there is a problem.
I really wish emotions were that regular and logical. Sadly they aren't. Emotions rarely work according to such standard lines. Everyone has problems from this perspective really.

An arbitrary number of eyes implies an arbitrary number of viewpoints, which might as well be that good when combined with basic meguca sensing.
I think you're pushing the number of eyes super high there when considering the ridiculous area that would be covered in a >50 kilometer radius. Line of sight obstruction in a city means that you would need probably around 10,000 eyes to cover that whole area continuously. Beholders aren't that gifted in number of eyes. Meguca sensing is a problem though in that it allows for a larger range of effect, but that doesn't give nearly as much information, nor quality there of. You've never established exactly how precise it is, but it's more like early sonar than a modern high power radar system.

I am not misremembering. I said the number one tactic after it teleports is to teleport, which is exactly what you said.
You missed a salient detail though. When it engages them it's done by teleporting out to them. Then when they run away, it would teleport a second time to catch up, then they'd teleport out.

2: What are the estimated number of girls in the Kofu and Nazomu areas?
My notes on Kofu is 34 territory, 26 girls including 1 elite, in defiance of your original guess that an elite would preclude development of a democracy, but I figured at least some girls when given more power would be rather chill about exerting it, not everyone wants to conquer their realm with an iron fist. A little higher pop than people thought, was in my notes from ages ago though, not sure what I did wrong to give lower pop impression. (It's before Serena in my notes.)
Numazu I have listed as 20 territory, 15 pop, originally just very tightly knit vets, might roll some dice see about elites since they see more combat than anybody. Hmm gave them double the odds of elites just from their sheer grit in those hills, but still didn't roll any.

I could have given you looser estimates, but I'm trying to be a little nicer as opposed to my bout of total raging craziness with making the DS-Youma curve.

1: What are the current estimates of DS in the Kofu and Nazomu areas?
You do not have precision estimates on this. You can only make broad guesses. Numazu would be around 0-10, being highly practiced at protecting their territory and unusually brutal in their tactics.
Kofu you're estimating somewhere in the 10-15 range, probably.

3: Would you permit us organizing shifts dividing the month of hunting into two periods and assigning different DS danger modifiers across those two periods? (ie have the trained greens hunt up to DS 8 in the first two weeks - which I calculated, they can - and then switch to trained vets for the next two weeks to hunt the DS even higher). It's not something I'd like to do, since it's a pain to keep track of, but right now it's the only way I can see to get enough hunting done by girls outside our core group.
I'm actually curious what players think about that from the realism standpoint since compressing a month of labor hours into two weeks is going to run into some serious problems.

80 hour weeks essentially, probably going to have to cut school for those weeks. Maybe tax you some meguca months in proportion the month after as time to help them catch back up in school and such.


Actually, my objection is more of a trust thing. I think the stasis thing is pretty cool, but I can count the number of people i'd trust with taking care of me in that state on my hands.
That's actually a very good point that shows I haven't properly put myself in their heads. I don't know if I personally would trust anyone with keeping me in stasis to eventually revive.

Also, in the realm of total trivia, what exactly is Serena's weapon? Not sure if it was ever mentioned.
Not mentioned, I'm usually above that level in terms of abstraction.

I could go randomly generate one, I have tons of random generators bookmarked for this quest. (Japanese names, magical organization names, powers, weapons, etc.)
If we wanted to continue the bit of light-hearted Expying then it would probably be a discus.
 
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That's actually a very good point that shows I haven't properly put myself in their heads. I don't know if I personally would trust anyone with keeping me in stasis to eventually revive.
And now consider how a magical girl, immersed in the cynicism of PMMM would see it. A good number of the just-recruited ones could easily jump to it being a plot to disarm and kill them to lessen the refugee pressure.
Not mentioned, I'm usually above that level in terms of abstraction.

I could go randomly generate one, I have tons of random generators bookmarked for this quest. (Japanese names, magical organization names, powers, weapons, etc.)
If we wanted to continue the bit of light-hearted Expying then it would probably be a discus.
Eh, i'm sure an omake writer will have an idea eventually.
 
This looks like some standard method of defense list, it's actually kind of interesting in covering just about every method I can think of. It looks standard because you include stuff you have no known method for.
It's not some sort of standard table; just everything that I could think of, and an evaluation of it. When building stuff like that, I try not to leave anything out, even if we have no means of using it.

I should point out evasion was a large part of what Kyoclone was doing though. It was viable to a degree. I was perhaps bad at showing this, but at the ranges Kyoclone kept things at she was dodging quite a few beam attacks. Imperfect, but most defenses are. It's not lightspeed beams, very fast, but not lightspeed.
OK. From the narrative, I didn't have that impression, but it's good to know.

A little higher pop than people thought, was in my notes from ages ago though, not sure what I did wrong to give lower pop impression.
I think we calculated it just from adding up the population centers in the region, and not finding enough to support a very large group. Also, for Kofu I think you once gave a vague number estimate (20-30, maybe?), but it was based on territory rather than their actual population, and we cut that down a bit to account for buffer space needed, plus other vague comments about us overestimating their size.
 
OK. From the narrative, I didn't have that impression, but it's good to know.
Kyoclone also used the Youma as cover.

I think we calculated it just from adding up the population centers in the region, and not finding enough to support a very large group. Also, for Kofu I think you once gave a vague number estimate (20-30, maybe?), but it was based on territory rather than their actual population, and we cut that down a bit to account for buffer space needed, plus other vague comments about us overestimating their size.
I'm not honestly sure, this was in my notes for a long time. Maybe at some point I forgot about it.
 
Hmm to a degree we use fungible meguca time units, but compressing their monthly hours like that would be kind of hitting the realism level of the quest pretty hard. Not sure.

What do players think about that from a realism perspective?

Well... at the very least could we use half time? Etc? (ie half the time of meguca greens for a distinct period in the area, with calculated risk for them during that period, and then switching to another group half time with a different DS calculated risk.)

It will be horribly horribly inefficient, and in fact I'd probably have to divide the month into 4 weeks and use 1/4th time to make it work, but it sounds like you are okay with that if we want figure it out.

Geez... what a massive headache this is going to be... but it's probably the only way we can effectively use the greens...

My notes on Kofu is 34 territory, 26 girls including 1 elite, in defiance of your original guess that an elite would preclude development of a democracy, but I figured at least some girls when given more power would be rather chill about exerting it, not everyone wants to conquer their realm with an iron fist. A little higher pop than people thought, was in my notes from ages ago though, not sure what I did wrong to give lower pop impression. (It's before Serena in my notes.)
Numazu I have listed as 20 territory, 15 pop, originally just very tightly knit vets, might roll some dice see about elites since they see more combat than anybody. Hmm gave them double the odds of elites just from their sheer grit in those hills, but still didn't roll any.

I could have given you looser estimates, but I'm trying to be a little nicer as opposed to my bout of total raging craziness with making the DS-Youma curve.

You do not have precision estimates on this. You can only make broad guesses. Numazu would be around 0-10, being highly practiced at protecting their territory and unusually brutal in their tactics.
Kofu you're estimating somewhere in the 10-15 range, probably.

Hmm... okay... then Kofu is really in some trouble here. But... if we buy them armor, maybe they can squeeze out another 26 cubes before being cornered.

Heh... they may be basically in the same boat as us. Let's see if we can get them to throw in with us for the all out attack on the Eyeball with hunting territory in Tokyo next month as an incentive.

I'm actually curious what players think about that from the realism standpoint since compressing a month of labor hours into two weeks is going to run into some serious problems.

80 hour weeks essentially, probably going to have to cut school for those weeks. Maybe tax you some meguca months in proportion the month after as time to help them catch back up in school and such.

Well... if you are willing to do something like that that would make things easier...

Hmm... actually... I think we might be able to do it with 3/4 time using trained greens, and then 1/4 time using trained vets, and not have the greens working overtime at all...

Well, other than back loading all their training to the end of the month.

Let me work some numbers and come up with a specific proposal and than see if there are problems with it.

Since I know have a better idea of your concerns I think I can get something close at least that can be a base to work from.

Not mentioned, I'm usually above that level in terms of abstraction.

I could go randomly generate one, I have tons of random generators bookmarked for this quest. (Japanese names, magical organization names, powers, weapons, etc.)
If we wanted to continue the bit of light-hearted Expying then it would probably be a discus.

Well... weapons do seem to have some connection to wishes/personalities.

Sayaka is a crusader for justice type, she gets a sword.

Mami is feminine and tied tot he world, she gets ribbons.

Kyouko is Christian, she gets a spear.

Not sure why Madoka got bow...

Based on Serena's wish I'd guess something like a wand or maybe a mace is most likely...

Maybe something incorporating the eight pointed star?

The Hope Symbol – The 8 Pointed Star Symbol

Or maybe an anchor? That's a common symbol of hope in christian symbolism.

Heh... I just imagined Serena running around with a boat anchor as her weapon....
 
Hmm... okay... then Kofu is really in some trouble here. But... if we buy them armor, maybe they can squeeze out another 26 cubes before being cornered.

Heh... they may be basically in the same boat as us. Let's see if we can get them to throw in with us for the all out attack on the Eyeball with hunting territory in Tokyo next month as an incentive.
I imagine that they'd want more than a month for that, seeing how on-the-brink they are. If they lose much in the fight, then even with seeds they won't be able to hold themselves together afterwards.
Mami is feminine and tied tot he world, she gets ribbons.
If it took her wish literally for her weapon like it did for Mami, it might be some kind of lantern.
 
Honestly the end of turn hunting kind of leveled out your rolls. The very high rolls for most days of Youma not interfering at all. Then at the end Kyoclone's absurd string of rolls for someone that should have died way faster in that situation. With more average rolls it should have been more along the lines of one person out of the party living, rather than 3.
Yeah, I have no complaints with the rolls overall. I was just commenting on the fact that the research rolls for powering the artifact were low (mostly because you commented on that fact yourself in the update).

Also, considering that in dangerous game, the beholder was close enough to fire on the girls without entering the interdiction range.
Ranges are unclear. It was able to detect the girls (and teleport just outside the interdiction field), but it didn't actually start shooting until after the interdiction field was turned off. And while rereading the passage, I noticed something:
Sprinting in the opposite direction she glanced back to see the Beholder reduce much of her blade barrier to dust with a few shots from one of its tentacles
It's the tentacles that shoot the beams, not the eyes. Unless these are tentacles with eyes on the end of them (which is perfectly possible).

Actually, my objection is more of a trust thing. I think the stasis thing is pretty cool, but I can count the number of people i'd trust with taking care of me in that state on my hands.
We let strangers take care of our lives regularly. When flying in an airplane, for instance. Or even simply when buying food from the supermarket: we trust that the people who made and transported and sold the food took care to ensure that it isn't contaminated (or at least that the regulations both legal and de facto are constraining the process so that the food is safe). In theory, this is the same sort of thing (although the fact that it involves "soul gems" makes the fear a bit more visceral). We already know (from Nagoya) that the process is safe. But an important part of selling the stasis plan to our own girls will be demonstrating its efficacy (and lack of ill effects) on a few brave volunteers. Perhaps these initial volunteers will need to be some of our Veterans who already have an established relationship of trust.

You missed a salient detail though. When it engages them it's done by teleporting out to them. Then when they run away, it would teleport a second time to catch up, then they'd teleport out.
Interesting. Did we get any information on the minimum time between those two teleports?
 
We let strangers take care of our lives regularly. When flying in an airplane, for instance. Or even simply when buying food from the supermarket: we trust that the people who made and transported and sold the food took care to ensure that it isn't contaminated (or at least that the regulations both legal and de facto are constraining the process so that the food is safe). In theory, this is the same sort of thing (although the fact that it involves "soul gems" makes the fear a bit more visceral). We already know (from Nagoya) that the process is safe. But an important part of selling the stasis plan to our own girls will be demonstrating its efficacy (and lack of ill effects) on a few brave volunteers. Perhaps these initial volunteers will need to be some of our Veterans who already have an established relationship of trust.
That is not the same thing at all.

Those involved in airlines and groceries:

1: Have no incentive to harm you
2: Have a reputational incentive to make sure you are happy (since they make money from repeat customers)
3: Have government agencies inspecting them and requiring them to met certain standards

Now we have a (much weaker) reputational incentive, and I don't think that #3 is really all that important (though I suspect most people would disagree with me).

However, there is a major, major incentive for us to just leave them in stasis until we decide that we want them again.

It would be much more efficient cube wise to promise the girls that they are going to get time out of stasis during the month, but instead just leave them in stasis for the next 4 to 5 months while we deal with Tokyo. Not saying we would do that, but these girls have no way to know that the players controlling the Serenes are irrational and emotionally attached to them, and so unwilling to betray them.

Bluntly, these girls have no reason to extend the same level of trust to the Serenes that we extend to our grocery stores.
 
Okay, so ran some first initial rough numbers, without an concentration of .

Can probably hunt the South up to 16 DS using trained greens the first 3/4 of the month, followed by hunting with vet packs the final 1/4 of the month. That would however require something like 53 trained vets in the final 1/4 of a month, (so ~13.5 meguca months). I'll have to look over our other commitments, but we can probably do that... that would save us up to 13 vet months aggregated over the whole month.

Might need some tweaking (like maybe 2/3 of the month with greens and 1/3 with vets).

However, it means that vets would not be available to hunt the North in the final 1/4 of the month. I'd have to figure out something up there as well. Probably can do something like a 1/4 with untrained vets, 1/2 a month with trained vets, and then 1/4 of the month with Elites?

Anyway, this whole process is going to be very inefficient uses of meguca months, but that's what we have a surfeit of right now, so worth pursuing.

The math is going to take a lot of calculations not in the spreadsheet, so I'll have to do it by hand, and the recheck and triple check it, so I won't be able to post any firm plan until late tonight at the earliest.
 
That is not the same thing at all.
I would argue that it exactly the same thing.

1: Have no incentive to harm you
2: Have a reputational incentive to make sure you are happy (since they make money from repeat customers)
As you say, the reputational incentive to make sure that our girls are happy is less of an incentive than it would be for a chain of grocery stores. But to counterbalance the weaker effect of reputation, we have an entire MORALE mechanic which gives us an extremely strong incentive to make sure that our girls are literally happy. Any unhappiness that might result from of sloppiness (accidental or malicious) would invoke a cube cost due to an increased number of spirals.

3: Have government agencies inspecting them and requiring them to met certain standards

Now we have a (much weaker) reputational incentive, and I don't think that #3 is really all that important (though I suspect most people would disagree with me).
I don't place much stock in government agencies, either. IMHO, the most effective standards are those that are self-imposed in order to please customers.

However, there is a major, major incentive for us to just leave them in stasis until we decide that we want them again.

It would be much more efficient cube wise to promise the girls that they are going to get time out of stasis during the month, but instead just leave them in stasis for the next 4 to 5 months while we deal with Tokyo. Not saying we would do that, but these girls have no way to know that the players controlling the Serenes are irrational and emotionally attached to them, and so unwilling to betray them.

Bluntly, these girls have no reason to extend the same level of trust to the Serenes that we extend to our grocery stores.
Technically, we could "save cubes" by leaving the girls in stasis (just like a grocery store might save money by cutting corners and selling expired food), but that would be reprehensible and the negative effects would be so horrible that it would clearly not be worth it. The girls who have been with us for any length of time (i.e. all of them except the 12 Greens we just recruited) know that we're not going to do that. We might have to take some steps to show that we're above board to the new recruits, but note that our welcome package (including the cubes that were given to them during the recruiting process and at the start of the month) should allow them to start with a certain measure of trust to begin with. Additionally, the method I am proposing for stasis uses shifts (probably four shifts), so that only half of the girls will be in stasis at any given time. Anyone who is apprehensive about being screwed over should be in one of the latter groups so that they can see that the girls from the earlier groups have been removed from stasis just as planned.

To continue our previous discussion about the cons of stasis compared to the cons of the other options, I would like to breakdown the fears that are involved so that we don't get confused by mixing them together in our analysis:

Here are the fears that will occur regarding stasis:
1. Fear that stasis cause damage to the body or soul. This is an understandable fear, but Nagoya's experiences show that it ought to be safe. In order to mitigate this fear as much as possible, we need use a process that is as consistent and foolproof as possible and then demonstrate that it works as intended. This should calm the fears to a reasonable level, but I acknowledge that there might still be some girls who have a fear that is disproportionately large compared to the actual danger.
2. Fear of missing out due to lost time. This is the primary cost of stasis. I don't think that there's anything we can really do about it, except to explain that the alternatives are worse.
3. Fear of separation between body and soul. PMMM makes a big deal about the soul gem being literally a soul gem. Note that this is one area where I don't actually accuse Kyuubey of dissembling in canon because the description is right there in the name, but that's beside the point here since we're assuming that the lichbomb itself has already been explained to all of the girls in the MMEQ setting. However, even after knowing about the lichbomb, some girls might take issue with the idea of the connection between body and soul being severed, even temporarily. Above and beyond the fear of damage or missing out. I'm not sure what (if anything) we can do about this fear, except to offer alternatives (such as hunting in Tokyo) and hope that the fear is reduced over time.
4. Fear that the stasis plan isn't what it claims to be. (discussed above)
5. Feelings of inadequacy. The stasis plan makes it clear that we're only taking the Greens in out of charity rather than because we expect them to meaningfully contribute in the near future. But they are more of a drain on our resources than they are a benefit, so the stasis plan merely highlights a problem which is unavoidable. We can only hope that this inspires the Greens to work harder and gain Veteran status sooner. On the flip side, it also shows that we do value everyone who isn't a Green (i.e. the Veterans that we just recruited), so that part should be good for morale.

Here are the fears associated with the alternatives to stasis from the perspective of an individual Green who is considering whether or not to do it (assuming that the pros and cons of each alternative have been explained in full):
1. Joining Nagoya: this has exactly the same fears as our own stasis plan, but even stronger because there would be more time spent in stasis and fewer ways to ensure trust.
2. Leaving and joining another group which is willing to take in new girls and doesn't have a cube shortage. There's a fear of not being able to find such a group (since SIMP knows of no such organizations) as well as a fear that the other group would have living conditions that are worse than the ones in SIMP. Some girls might be unrealistically optimistic about their chances, but we should definitely counsel against this course of action.
3. Poaching. There would be a fear of not being able to find enough cubes or a place to stay or enough to eat. There would be a fear of being alone. And a fear of being killed by demons or hostile magical girls. And the shame of stealing (and possibly causing spirals due to lack of cubes). This is clearly the worst possible option. Anybody whose mind and feelings do not incline them away from this option is either misinformed or delusional. It might have seemed like a valid option for the girls who lived in Tokyo, but the girls we recruited have options that are clearly better than this one.
4. Living in Mitakihara, hunting in Tokyo. There would be no danger of not being able to find enough cubes. The girls would still have a guaranteed place to stay and eat and they would have plenty of companionship (while in Mitakihara). And there would be little to no risk of being killed by other magical girls or the demons that are being hunted. There would still be a huge fear of Youma in general and the Beholder in particular. This fear would be well justified, since every minute spent in Tokyo is a risk. However, living in Mitakihara reduces the risk to roughly a twelfth of what it would be for someone who actually lives in Tokyo (i.e. if active time is 8 hours a day, then gathering 0.5 GCU would take 2 hours a day for a solo green). So this might be a valid alternative for some of the girls who are really dubious of the stasis plan. We should still counsel them to take advantage of stasis, but this option is not nearly as bad as the others. And any girl taking it would still have the option to switch back to stasis if hunting in Tokyo turns out to be too nerve wracking.
 
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Another comment about stasis: even though it would have a morale penalty, it should also reduce the number of girls who can potentially spiral (because a girl who is in stasis cannot spiral).

According to my calculations, if we remain at a morale level of 2, then having 65 girls in stasis half-time would reduce the expected number of spirals from 9.17 to 7.36. (and from 18.3 GCU to 14.7 GCU).

Edit: Also compare this to a morale level of 3 with nobody in stasis: the expected number of spirals would be 6.89 (and 13.8 GCU). So if stasis would cause a difference of 1 point of morale, then this effect would offset 90% of the morale penalty. And if the morale penalty of stasis is worth less than 1 point, then stasis is actively better.

Edit2: Note that the reduction in spirals is primarily an effect of the time dilation. From the perspective of any given girl, the spiral rate over a month of experienced time would be the same, it would simply spread over the span of two calendar months. Still, it is an improvement because killing the Beholder should give a pretty big increase to morale.
 
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I would argue that it exactly the same thing.


As you say, the reputational incentive to make sure that our girls are happy is less of an incentive than it would be for a chain of grocery stores. But to counterbalance the weaker effect of reputation, we have an entire MORALE mechanic which gives us an extremely strong incentive to make sure that our girls are literally happy. Any unhappiness that might result from of sloppiness (accidental or malicious) would invoke a cube cost due to an increased number of spirals.
Except our girls don't know that this mechanic exists, it's a purely meta element that you're trying to claim will affect the girls' fluff opinions, whereas everybody knows groceries have customer satisfaction surveys and departments.
I don't place much stock in government agencies, either. IMHO, the most effective standards are those that are self-imposed in order to please customers.
Shockingly, Haman, you, and I are not the only people on the planet, and in fact only make up a small portion of them. Filling a cup with water from the ocean and seeing no fish does not mean there are no fish in the ocean, your sample is merely skewed (because you are deliberately refusing to believe there are other viewpoints than your own).
Technically, we could "save cubes" by leaving the girls in stasis (just like a grocery store might save money by cutting corners and selling expired food), but that would be reprehensible and the negative effects would be so horrible that it would clearly not be worth it. The girls who have been with us for any length of time (i.e. all of them except the 12 Greens we just recruited) know that we're not going to do that. We might have to take some steps to show that we're above board to the new recruits, but note that our welcome package (including the cubes that were given to them during the recruiting process and at the start of the month) should allow them to start with a certain measure of trust to begin with. Additionally, the method I am proposing for stasis uses shifts (probably four shifts), so that only half of the girls will be in stasis at any given time. Anyone who is apprehensive about being screwed over should be in one of the latter groups so that they can see that the girls from the earlier groups have been removed from stasis just as planned.
Children don't stop being afraid of the dark because mommy and daddy said 'don't be afraid of the dark'. It's visceral, and like all things unknown, cannot simply be defeated by the logical elements of a teenager's mind; it's simply not developed enough to control those fears yet.
To continue our previous discussion about the cons of stasis compared to the cons of the other options, I would like to breakdown the fears that are involved so that we don't get confused by mixing them together in our analysis:

Here are the fears that will occur regarding stasis:
1. Fear that stasis cause damage to the body or soul. This is an understandable fear, but Nagoya's experiences show that it ought to be safe. In order to mitigate this fear as much as possible, we need use a process that is as consistent and foolproof as possible and then demonstrate that it works as intended. This should calm the fears to a reasonable level, but I acknowledge that there might still be some girls who have a fear that is disproportionately large compared to the actual danger.
2. Fear of missing out due to lost time. This is the primary cost of stasis. I don't think that there's anything we can really do about it, except to explain that the alternatives are worse.
3. Fear of separation between body and soul. PMMM makes a big deal about the soul gem being literally a soul gem. Note that this is one area where I don't actually accuse Kyuubey of dissembling in canon because the description is right there in the name, but that's beside the point here since we're assuming that the lichbomb itself has already been explained to all of the girls in the MMEQ setting. However, even after knowing about the lichbomb, some girls might take issue with the idea of the connection between body and soul being severed, even temporarily. Above and beyond the fear of damage or missing out. I'm not sure what (if anything) we can do about this fear, except to offer alternatives (such as hunting in Tokyo) and hope that the fear is reduced over time.
4. Fear that the stasis plan isn't what it claims to be. (discussed above)
5. Feelings of inadequacy. The stasis plan makes it clear that we're only taking the Greens in out of charity rather than because we expect them to meaningfully contribute in the near future. But they are more of a drain on our resources than they are a benefit, so the stasis plan merely highlights a problem which is unavoidable. We can only hope that this inspires the Greens to work harder and gain Veteran status sooner. On the flip side, it also shows that we do value everyone who isn't a Green (i.e. the Veterans that we just recruited), so that part should be good for morale.
1. I've never seen this indicated in fluff, and everyone knows that it can't damage the body because of regular healing.
2. Fear of not being cannot be logically argued away to a teenaged or pre-teen girl. They will have no control of their faculties, or the events of the future; in the event of a catastrophic attack or double-cross (something Tokyo girls are intimately familiar with and liable to imagine constantly) they might as well die never knowing they'll die. "Will this be the last time I see anything?" is a very real and present fear regardless of our assurances.
3. Again, this is an unmanageable fear as you pointed out. This is a morale hit every time a girl goes into or out of stasis. Gaslighting: My Soul edition is probably scarier than the classic.
4. This ties into the final sentence of number two quite nicely. The fear that they'll just kill us is a real and present fear for girls who have likely either witnessed or actually participated in actions that sacrificed the lives of others near them 'because it was necessary'.
5. This is less serious, because Tokyo girls likely all feel inadequate already considering they ran to get here. I wouldn't calculate this as part of a morale penalty.
Here are the fears associated with the alternatives to stasis from the perspective of an individual Green who is considering whether or not to do it (assuming that the pros and cons of each alternative have been explained in full):
1. Joining Nagoya: this has exactly the same fears as our own stasis plan, but even stronger because there would be more time spent in stasis and fewer ways to ensure trust.
2. Leaving and joining another group which is willing to take in new girls and doesn't have a cube shortage. There's a fear of not being able to find such a group (since SIMP knows of no such organizations) as well as a fear that the other group would have living conditions that are worse than the ones in SIMP. Some girls might be unrealistically optimistic about their chances, but we should definitely counsel against this course of action.
3. Poaching. There would be a fear of not being able to find enough cubes or a place to stay or enough to eat. There would be a fear of being alone. And a fear of being killed by demons or hostile magical girls. And the shame of stealing (and possibly causing spirals due to lack of cubes). This is clearly the worst possible option. Anybody whose mind and feelings do not incline them away from this option is either misinformed or delusional. It might have seemed like a valid option for the girls who lived in Tokyo, but the girls we recruited have options that are clearly better than this one.
4. Living in Mitakihara, hunting in Tokyo. There would be no danger of not being able to find enough cubes. The girls would still have a guaranteed place to stay and eat and they would have plenty of companionship (while in Mitakihara). And there would be little to no risk of being killed by other magical girls or the demons that are being hunted. There would still be a huge fear of Youma in general and the Beholder in particular. This fear would be well justified, since every minute spent in Tokyo is a risk. However, living in Mitakihara reduces the risk to roughly a twelfth of what it would be for someone who actually lives in Tokyo (i.e. if active time is 8 hours a day, then gathering 0.5 GCU would take 2 hours a day for a solo green). So this might be a valid alternative for some of the girls who are really dubious of the stasis plan. We should still counsel them to take advantage of stasis, but this option is not nearly as bad as the others. And any girl taking it would still have the option to switch back to stasis if hunting in Tokyo turns out to be too nerve wracking.
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. These are Tokyo girls, who effectively lived like bottom-rung predators in a predator-only environment. They will be able to scavenge food or find shelter easily enough. These are Tokyo girls, who were either already alone or will still have strong enough ties to their other Tokyo friends that they'll leave together. These are Tokyo girls, literally every other area in Japan is less likely to kill them than Tokyo, but at least they have control of their faculties to ensure they don't have to trust a third party to survive (see 2 from dangers of stasis). Finally, these are Tokyo girls, if they still feel shame from thievery when they've at least indirectly been the cause of another meguca's death (and likely poached themselves, considering it was poaching, desperate or otherwise, that created the Tokyo event in the first place) they wouldn't leave us if the world was ending; for everyone else, there's poaching. As soon as we say 'die for two weeks a month', suddenly poaching will look like a way better option than joining a group that will likely also demand stasis or dangerous hunting.
4. No, there would be no trouble finding cubes. They'd have somewhere to stay, we'd force them to hunt somewhere Youma and the Beholder had been known to frequent on our word that 'they totally don't anymore!' and implicitly take no responsibility for killing them if they died doing it because they were being stubborn little emotional children. To tell them to do this is to be a mob racketeer saying 'you can always not pay protection money' while having a hand on a wobbly display stand; you clearly expect them to give you what you want, because the other option has a much higher chance of immediately killing them. This, more than all other options, is a direct threat to their lives. This will severely impact morale, and I wouldn't be surprised if this alone was enough to bring it down to 0. Either the girls are okay with stasis, or we let them go, this option will breed resentment for a long time and that you think it's viable only proves you are only looking at this situation from one person's viewpoint, your own.
 
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We wanted to research lures, but never managed to get them working.

Maybe I shoudn't have called it a Lure. Under a Lure Charm I understand something that attracts any Yoma over a large Area by itself.
What I meant was more of a big magical Beacon. Something that only works because the Beholder has a huge detection range for magic and isn't scared of most magical Girls.
It's based on being unusual and interesting, and less directly attracting it.

If we don't attack the Beholder this month, we could test it with other Yoma in Tokyo or even in Mitakihara. We just have to drop a Pile of Charms somewhere and see if any Demons are attracted by the magic.
If it does work, we could use piles of magical Charms to attract Yoma or even the Beholder.

Hmm interesting idea though. I was originally going to say again that electronics don't work in the miasma, but you accounted for that a bit. I guess with a little rigging you could make a device that presses a button when it stops working, rather than the device being made to directly press a button on some command.

I think it coud work on the Beholder. From our own fight and from how Nagoya was attacked
When it engages them it's done by teleporting out to them. Then when they run away, it would teleport a second time to catch up, then they'd teleport out.
we can guess that it teleports on top of whatever it wants to kill or finds interesting.

If we can build something that activates the Teleport Block if the Beholder teleports, and with that covers the Area in Miasma, we could stop it from running away.
If @Powerofmind is right about the teleport delay it can't run away, if it can teleport our Block should stop it.

Wait a Minute...
Then when they run away, it would teleport a second time to catch up, then they'd teleport out.
o_O Why did Nagoya wait till the Beholder teleports again? We did just run untill we could teleport. Did our Teleport Block still work or was it just scared of Serena?

Also
Kyoclone also used the Youma as cover.
That and how our "Symbol" are individualized Shields gave me the Idea that our Shields are disarmed Demons.:confused:
 
Except our girls don't know that this mechanic exists, it's a purely meta element that you're trying to claim will affect the girls' fluff opinions, whereas everybody knows groceries have customer satisfaction surveys and departments.
It's not a meta element. Everyone knows that happiness affects the likelihood of grief spirals, and our policies for how we spend grief cubes to mitigate spirals are clearly spelled out (most notably: we are willing to spend the same number of cubes for new recruits as we are for long time members). IIRC, the 0-10 scale for morale is a direct measure that the SIMP Maintenance teams use. They don't have the exact formula for grief spirals, of course, but they do have a reasonable approximation.

Children don't stop being afraid of the dark because mommy and daddy said 'don't be afraid of the dark'. It's visceral, and like all things unknown, cannot simply be defeated by the logical elements of a teenager's mind; it's simply not developed enough to control those fears yet.
The part of the brain that is responsible for thinking logically and abstractly finishes its maturation at around age 11. Generally speaking, the main thing that teenagers lack is the life experience to put things into perspective. Visceral fears are generally decreased by experiences that show those fears to be groundless. In this case, the experience that will (hopefully) calm those fears is the observation of other girls who undergo stasis without experiencing ill effects afterwards.

2. Fear of not being cannot be logically argued away to a teenaged or pre-teen girl. They will have no control of their faculties, or the events of the future; in the event of a catastrophic attack or double-cross (something Tokyo girls are intimately familiar with and liable to imagine constantly) they might as well die never knowing they'll die. "Will this be the last time I see anything?" is a very real and present fear regardless of our assurances.
Fear number 2 is the fear of missing out. What I meant was the fear of missing out on positive experiences. Fear of negative events occurring while in stasis should probably be lumped in with Fear number 4. It's a real fear, but it won't be as bad as you make it out to be since the Tokyo girls who experienced attacks by other magical girls or double-crosses are the ones who were there a year and a half ago when overhunting led to Youma spawning in the first place. None of the Greens have experienced any of that.

3. Again, this is an unmanageable fear as you pointed out. This is a morale hit every time a girl goes into or out of stasis. Gaslighting: My Soul edition is probably scarier than the classic.
Going into/out of stasis is experienced as a single event. There wouldn't be a separate morale hit for both of them. And the morale hit would (hopefully) decrease over time as girls become more familiar with the process.

4. This ties into the final sentence of number two quite nicely. The fear that they'll just kill us is a real and present fear for girls who have likely either witnessed or actually participated in actions that sacrificed the lives of others near them 'because it was necessary'.
Again, you're thinking of the wrong group of Tokyo girls. The primary fear that the Greens will have is Youma, not other meguca.

3. These are Tokyo girls, who effectively lived like bottom-rung predators in a predator-only environment. They will be able to scavenge food or find shelter easily enough.
They have experience scavenging for food and shelter, sure. But saying that it's "easy" is wrong. These girls already know from personal experience that finding food and shelter is not easy.

These are Tokyo girls, who were either already alone or will still have strong enough ties to their other Tokyo friends that they'll leave together.
True. But staying in Mitakihara is going to look more attractive from a social perspective, regardless.

These are Tokyo girls, literally every other area in Japan is less likely to kill them than Tokyo, but at least they have control of their faculties to ensure they don't have to trust a third party to survive (see 2 from dangers of stasis).
They came running to us, so they're already at the very least hoping that a third party will help them survive.

Finally, these are Tokyo girls, if they still feel shame from thievery when they've at least indirectly been the cause of another meguca's death (and likely poached themselves, considering it was poaching, desperate or otherwise, that created the Tokyo event in the first place) they wouldn't leave us if the world was ending; for everyone else, there's poaching.
Again. The greens have not experienced poaching. In the past year or so, there have been plenty of cubes available in Tokyo for everyone to get what they need. The only poaching that they may have done was while running away, and many of them may not have considered it poaching at all (since in Tokyo you can pretty much hunt wherever you want).

As soon as we say 'die for two weeks a month', suddenly poaching will look like a way better option than joining a group that will likely also demand stasis or dangerous hunting.
Stasis is not death, it's much closer to sleep (or hibernation). Poaching only looks like a good idea to a girl if she is truly desperate or if she has no idea of what it actually entails. To be sure, these Greens are green, so they may not realize what all the dangers are, but part of the plan is to educate them all on the reasons why poaching is a terrible idea for everyone involved.

4. No, there would be no trouble finding cubes. They'd have somewhere to stay, we'd force them to hunt somewhere Youma and the Beholder had been known to frequent on our word that 'they totally don't anymore!' and implicitly take no responsibility for killing them if they died doing it because they were being stubborn little emotional children. To tell them to do this is to be a mob racketeer saying 'you can always not pay protection money' while having a hand on a wobbly display stand; you clearly expect them to give you what you want, because the other option has a much higher chance of immediately killing them. This, more than all other options, is a direct threat to their lives. This will severely impact morale, and I wouldn't be surprised if this alone was enough to bring it down to 0. Either the girls are okay with stasis, or we let them go, this option will breed resentment for a long time and that you think it's viable only proves you are only looking at this situation from one person's viewpoint, your own.
You appear to be missing my point completely. If living in Mitakihara and hunting in Tokyo is a bad option, then the girls in Tokyo have it 12 times worse, just from the risk of Youma attacks, not to mention everything else. So at the very worst, taking in these refugees has increased their chances of survival by an order of magnitude. Please don't ignore or underestimate that. "Letting the girls go" would be roughly equivalent to letting them go poach on somebody else's territory. Which is simply not acceptable. I want to tell the girls what all of their options are so that they can clearly see that stasis is the least bad of all the bad options. I would expect few (if any) of the girls to accept the offer to hunt in Tokyo, the only reason I'm including it is the possibility that some of them might perceive stasis as worse than it actually is and want to have an alternative. IMHO, that alternative is worse, but at least they would have a choice. The fact that it's not a very good choice is because the situation is horrible, not because the SIMP are a group of "mob racketeers".
 
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Arguing with you is an exercise in pointlessness. You believe solely what you want to believe on the matter, regardless of it being framed differently from the way you choose to frame it, which is the definition of another point of view. 50 girls will not share your point of view. They will have their own points of view that are not as emotionlessly logical as yours. They are traumatized pre-teen girls and you're telling them to either trust you implicitly with their lives in a way that we have never forced our girls to trust us before, or go kill themselves somewhere you don't have to see them do it. If you refuse to see that any of these highly emotional children could see this that way, you are deluded at best or deliberately obtuse at worst.

Regardless, I will combat this nonsensically foolish idea until you at least give it up.
You appear to be missing my point completely. If living in Mitakihara and hunting in Tokyo is a bad option, then the girls in Tokyo have it 12 times worse. So at the very worst, taking in these refugees has increased their chances of survival by an order of magnitude. Don't ignore or underestimate that. "Letting the girls go" would be roughly equivalent to letting them go poach on somebody else's territory. Which is simply not acceptable. I want to tell the girls what all of their options are so that they can clearly see that stasis is the least bad of all the bad options. I would expect few (if any) of the girls to accept the offer to hunt in Tokyo, the only reason I'm including it is the possibility that some of them might perceive stasis as worse than it actually is and want to have an alternative. IMHO, that alternative is worse, but at least they would have a choice. The fact that it's not a very good choice is because the situation is horrible, not because the SIMP are a group of "mob racketeers".
"You can't leave and poach freely, we will stop you."
"You can go hunt without any help at all from us in a place that literally just killed half a dozen girls who tried to do the same, and they were vets and elites only."
"Or, if you don't want to do the ONLY other thing we'll allow you to do without physically restraining you, you can be put in a coma for 2 weeks out of the month by a third party that will consider you at the bottom of the ladder in a cube shortage and hope nothing bad happens because of it, because you are strategically useless to us."

You are not giving them a choice. You are forcing them to pick the third option. In a choice between violent imprisonment with execution by starvation, ritual suicide, and the Trail of Tears, what the fuck do you think people are going to take, barring outright rebellion? And how fondly do you think they'll look back on this experience? How fondly do you think the other girls, who only dodged this bullet because they were useful to you, will look at this?
 
Maybe I shoudn't have called it a Lure. Under a Lure Charm I understand something that attracts any Yoma over a large Area by itself.
What I meant was more of a big magical Beacon. Something that only works because the Beholder has a huge detection range for magic and isn't scared of most magical Girls.
It's based on being unusual and interesting, and less directly attracting it.
If the Interdiction device proves more of a burden than benefit with the Beholder, we could charge it up as far as we can, then dump it somewhere to use as a beacon?
 
Mami is feminine and tied tot he world, she gets ribbons.
Honestly every time weapons come up I wonder how ribbons become muskets.
It's the tentacles that shoot the beams, not the eyes. Unless these are tentacles with eyes on the end of them (which is perfectly possible).
I should have used eyestalks. Mea Culpa. I don't often have use for the terminology.
3: Have government agencies inspecting them and requiring them to met certain standards

Now we have a (much weaker) reputational incentive, and I don't think that #3 is really all that important (though I suspect most people would disagree with me).
3 is actually really important for me. I lobby for inspection agencies in a lot of empire games.

that's beside the point here since we're assuming that the lichbomb itself has already been explained to all of the girls in the MMEQ setting
I might need to look this up. It came up before, and I'm not sure whether you guys ever decided if you were publicizing this. I'm pretty sure you decided to keep quiet about it, not denying, but not publicizing either.

It's much less severe than canon though because there isn't a witchbomb.

And the shame of stealing
Poaching is rarely considered to be stealing or shameful at all by poachers in the real world.

That and how our "Symbol" are individualized Shields gave me the Idea that our Shields are disarmed Demons.:confused:
What? No, demons dissolve on death. You just buy some steel shields off the internet, they're surprisingly available. I guess for re-enactors or cosplayers or something.

They don't have the exact formula for grief spirals, of course, but they do have a reasonable approximation.
The morale is something that Mami and staff gauge in universe, though that 0-10 number is itself an approximate average morale, you don't actually track on a per girl basis really (even I don't, I've got some blocks that it's divided into, but the only individual tracking is in a sense Mami's auto-success unless major disaster). The formula for calculating grief spirals on the other hand is explicitly a meta element. In universe grief spirals being loosely correlated with morale is obviously known, but tracking the morale of each person and calculating their individual odds of spiral would have far too many variables. You can expect that from an in universe perspective spirals are significantly smoother than the OOC formula implies. As we scale up in terms of size of the group I'll be reporting more a number of cubes spent on spirals and the number spent per person will be less of a factor and there will therefore be less jaggedness visible from the meta perspective.

The part of the brain that is responsible for thinking logically and abstractly finishes its maturation at around age 11.
On the other hand the part of the brain responsible for understanding long term consequences only finishes maturation around 25.
 
Poaching is rarely considered to be stealing or shameful at all by poachers in the real world.
Maybe not, but most poachers don't have to worry about the people who own the land dying due to a lack of food. And I suppose that most of the meguca who poach in MMEQ find ways to rationalize it. But they at least ought to feel guilty about it.

On the other hand the part of the brain responsible for understanding long term consequences only finishes maturation around 25.
I actually haven't ever heard about that. Any articles you can point me to? And is that a maturation of the brain thing or an experience thing?

50 girls will not share your point of view.
Obviously. Most of the people on this site (at least the ones who are speaking up) don't share my point of view. But I still think that my point of view is correct and I am attempting (though apparently failing) to explain why I believe it to be so.

They will have their own points of view that are not as emotionlessly logical as yours.
My point of view is (hopefully) logical, but it is not at all emotionless. You are focusing on the horrors of stasis, while I am focusing on a different fear: primarily, I am afraid of the dangers of poaching. Poaching under the current circumstances means that each girl who tries to do so will be traveling around (probably alone) without a guaranteed source of shelter or food, and while she wouldn't be attacked by a Youma (unless she's really unlucky), she would still be hunting demons that are much more dangerous than the ones she's used to. And she would be hunting these demons while competing with (and often fighting directly against) other meguca who are not nearly as lenient as the SIMP are. Many of them would be willing to kill her. All of Japan (except Tokyo) is already claimed; there simply aren't enough cubes to go around so poaching will (almost inevitably) end up with someone dying. Since I do care about the girls we recruited from Tokyo, I'm trying to make sure that they won't have to face that horrible situation.

They are traumatized pre-teen girls and you're telling them to either trust you implicitly with their lives in a way that we have never forced our girls to trust us before
Yes. This is what I'm asking. And I know that it's hard. Although, to be fair, we have asked our own girls to fight Youma, which is demonstrably more fatal than stasis is.

or go kill themselves somewhere you don't have to see them do it.
But, this is not what I'm asking. Even with the horrible conditions in Tokyo, the death rate is probably something like 10% or so for a Green in a month. Maybe 20% at the outside. And the conditions I am suggesting are at least 10 times better than that. And please note that I want to strongly encourage the girls to choose stasis instead of this (and I expect most of them to do so). The main reason I bring up the option of hunting in Tokyo is that, even with the risk of death, it is still incomparably preferable to poaching.

If you refuse to see that any of these highly emotional children could see this that way, you are deluded at best or deliberately obtuse at worst.
They are emotional. That's fine. I merely want them to point that emotion at something that really deserves the horror, namely: poaching. And Youma, I suppose (but that doesn't require any changes).

"You can't leave and poach freely, we will stop you."
Exactly. Poaching is horrible, and we cannot allow it.

"You can go hunt without any help at all from us in a place that literally just killed half a dozen girls who tried to do the same, and they were vets and elites only."
It was only 3 girls who died. And they were specifically spending their whole active time seeking out Youma to fight, so that's not a fair comparison. For a fair comparison, you need to compare against Greens who live and hunt in Tokyo. And (if anyone does choose to hunt in Tokyo), I would also like to issue them some Teleportation charms so they can bug out if a Youma does appear (that's what Kyoclone tried to do and it would have worked had the interdiction effect not been up).

"Or, if you don't want to do the ONLY other thing we'll allow you to do without physically restraining you, you can be put in a coma for 2 weeks out of the month by a third party that will consider you at the bottom of the ladder in a cube shortage and hope nothing bad happens because of it, because you are strategically useless to us."
That's an extraordinarily blunt way to put it, but basically, yes. It's still better than all of the other options.

You are not giving them a choice. You are forcing them to pick the third option. In a choice between violent imprisonment with execution by starvation, ritual suicide, and the Trail of Tears, what the fuck do you think people are going to take, barring outright rebellion?
Yes, this is a bad choice. And yes, I do expect them to pick the stasis option. When I originally wrote up the plan, I didn't even put any of the other options in it because I thought it was self evident that all of the alternatives were horrible. Some people tried to say that stasis was a bad idea, and that the alternatives must be better, and that it would be better to give the girls the option of simply "walking away". So I went in and described the alternatives in detail. And poaching is horrible. To the point that hunting in Tokyo would be actually not be quite as bad.

And how fondly do you think they'll look back on this experience? How fondly do you think the other girls, who only dodged this bullet because they were useful to you, will look at this?
Of course it's going to be bad. I have never denied that. What I'm trying to say (and what seems to not be getting through) is that the alternatives are worse. If you disagree, you're going to have to explain to me how poaching could be at all feasible.

Also, to keep things in perspective, remember that this whole discussion started when Elder Haman said that if we did try to implement stasis, then most of the girls would not go for it. My argument is that we should be able to convince them that stasis is the best option available to them under these conditions.
 
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