Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I am interested, even with the long and complicated.
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)
- Thread starter inverted_helix
- Start date
I am interested, even with the long and complicated.
Except, as I pointed out before, there is a very very big problem with your plan.
The demons will likely stay paired up for a long time. For all we know they could stay paired up for the rest of the month.
Then what?
You seem to think that we can just back off a bit and they will return to solo hunting, but I don't see why you can assume that.
Maybe we can add a bit to the plan to wait a few days to see if they shift back to solo hunting, but we have to have a plan on doing something if they don't. We certainly can't sit on our thumbs the rest of the month.
Additionally, you seem to have missed the part where helix explicitly says that Serena is still able to handle a pair of demons with just her and her friends.
We already know that the demons communicate. It's virtually certain that all the demons patrolling have moved into pairs. Please stop trying to impose your beliefs about how you think the demons should act and just accept what the GM has told us. Certainly don't make any plans based on beliefs that the GM has repeatedly rejected as false.
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@inverted_helix We already know in character both that the demons communicate and that the adaptations have spread as far as we can see, right?
Then good, as it gives us time to train, and to research or negotiate a solution to the teleporting demons. Forcing the demons to pair up reduces their meguca hunting effectiveness by 20-50%, correspondingly lengthening the time until Tokyo dies. We want that to continue as long as possible.
Yes, but it's dangerous for them, and I'd really rather not lose Serena to a bad die roll. She's our only effective weapon against the Class 3s; without her we're back to begging someone else to solve the problem for us, as our entire organization can barely handle one lone Class 3.
My point there was that we can't yet see either the northern edge nor the eastern edge of the city (in fact IIRC we haven't actually ever seen the beholder at all), so it's premature to assume that the demons are spreading their adaptations past the 50km distance of our tandem clairvoyants. We absolutely need to confirm that IC, even if @inverted_helix has hinted at it OOC, because it's a very important data point that can impact our future plans.
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I am not suggesting we "conceal" this information from her. At no point did I ever imply that. I said we should be discussing this with the Nagoya squads that we are directly working with, with the full expectation that they will be passing on relevant information to Hino.
That is, we are discussing the details with the people for whom these decisions actually matter, and not go over their heads in the chain of command, unless and until it is understood between us that there are considerations and implications that need Hino's direct supervision, and that that matter is something to be discussed between Mami and Hino, rather than Hino and her squads.
And do you do so without informing the product managers that you're doing so?
It should only become a major decision that needs to go to the CEO after you've already discussed things with the relevant managers and determined that something more significant needs to be done. If you're ignoring them, deciding something needs to be done all on your own, and then going to the CEO to propose the changes without even consulting the other people this is going to affect, well...
Adjust "her" to "them", and it would be fine for these purposes, I think.
The offense is not in what is said, but the manner of your interactions. It is "comme il faut", etiquette, respect — for everyone involved, not just the big amorphous "Nagoya Magocracy" with a picture of Hino pasted on it.
Sort of. I think this actually goes back to my original proposal of having a liaison with the Nagoya teams. It was dismissed as not being of sufficient time value for what was being done, but it really gets into a lot of this upkeep issue, of making sure the Nagoya teams are fully informed about what is going on, and now that things are changing, that they be informed about strategy changes, and possible changes in what we need out of them in this cooperative effort. And, if matters escalate to the level of needing to discuss issues with Hino, to arrange for those meetings as needed.
Edit: And for that matter, the gossipmonger is similar, and I really should have put that back in my plan...
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Agreed with all of this.
While I also agree with @TheEyes that we should be aiming at goals more than time slots, the goal of "waiting til the demons stop pairing up" has no known completion point. If it takes them a year to drop that tactic, do we just sit on our thumbs the entire time?
Likewise, I disagree with this assessment. We already have a very easy explanation of how this could come about; I just hope that it isn't the case because it would be less troublesome.
How? The demons do a complete cycle between the borders and the center of the city every few days. There is no requirement that any given demon returns to exactly the same border origin point that it started on. That means the ones cycling as pairs will be getting distributed throughout the Tokyo region in potentially random manner, and that they'll be in relatively close contact with plenty of other demons over that entire time.
The only question is whether they can communicate, "You must make this change", or whether those who were not in the immediate vicinity of Serena during the attack will be less likely to adopt that adaptation, leaving a scattered mix of singles and pairs.
If it is a scattered mix (which should be the case), I vote for only targeting pairs. That means that the singles are actually 'safer', which may lead to a de-adaptation.
In fact, even if they don't have a scattered mix, choosing to only kill one of a pair of demons, and letting the other escape, and then not targeting it afterwards, may also work as a de-adaptation mechanic.
Well, at least until the end of the month. I mean, Serena's group nearly lost to a single Class 3; sure, that was a result of a bad die roll, but it exposes to me that we probably need more training and assessment before we rush at a pair of Class 3s. I'm not entirely sure that I want to fight a pair of Class 3s at all this month.
Exactly. This, IMO, is critically important to discover, and worth backing off of combat operations for a few days to confirm. The reason I think this is so important is that I'm thinking the next stage in Class 3 adaptation, after pairing up, is for the Class 3s to forego meiosis and merge to become Class 4s, which we really don't want to have happen.
Again, it might, or it might cause them to all merge into Class 4s. That, IMO, is not worth the risk; IMO we should wait for them to calm down instead.
This is a bit overblown imo. Helix is running a Hard Mode quest by his own words, yes, but all the class 3s merging into Class 4 demons is not Hard Mode but rather "You Lose Mode".
Also, that's not how demon evolution works.
That's what I thought about the idea of them all coordinating with each other and suddenly doing pair hunts. At this point I'm not going to label any horrible possibility as impossible.
Are we really going to categorically say that pair hunts are as bad as it can get with the Class 3s?
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
The most likely next step is pack hunting.
No, but that's not what's being argued. You're somehow arguing that something which has never been implied, and goes directly counter to what the GM has actually stated, is somehow a threat that we need to be worried about.
Which no one else had a problem with, because it seemed a perfectly reasonable (not impossible) development.
The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
How is it not? We know that, as Class 3s eat meguca, they gain power in the twisted form of that meguca's magic. At some point, they undergo meiosis and split into more than one Class 3, or they don't, and they become Class 4s.
I'm suggesting that at some point, if we keep harassing the pair patrols, the next step in evolution is that all those Class 3s will stop undergoing meiosis, leading to them all becoming Class 4s. If they feel threatened enough, they might even consume another Class 3, absorbing its powers and becoming a Class 4 directly. How is that impossible or directly counter to what @inverted_helix has said?
Also, apropos of nothing (a random thought spurred by TheEyes' recent comments about demon evolution, so even if I disagree with them, they're useful for spurring other lines of thinking), but a curious thought:
Class 2 demons prey on humans, and are hunted by magical girls. The more they are hunted by magical girls, the more they adapt to fighting magical girls, and the more they de-adapt from hunting humans.
Class 3 demons prey on magical girls, and are hunted by Serena (for the purposes of this analogy, as helix has stated that they recognize Serena as the top predator here). The more that Serena hunts them, the more they will adapt to fighting Serena... and the more they should de-adapt from hunting normal magical girls.
If we spike the class 3s' adaptations high enough, does that make normal magical girls more-or-less safe from their predations? It's a bizarre conclusion, but it does actually make sense. And it definitely falls in line with our line of expertise. We should be able to evaluate this line of thought and get solid answers.
If that were the case, we could also expect that pushing them too high leads to them heading for class 4 emergence. So what we need is a Class 3 DS meter, that we keep below 10.0.
This... this could actually be a key understanding....
OK, this was just a random idea, but it feels important, so I'm going to include it in how I approach our continued plan.
[X] Keep in touch with the Nagoya teams over the changes observed, and how that's affecting strategy decisions and outcome expectations. Note ideas on changes to how we'd like to utilize them during this campaign. Escalate discussions to Hino if deemed necessary. (This would have been the liaison's job, but can be managed during nominal idle time by the Tokyo team/Mami.)
[X] Slow down the attacks for a few days, while spending more time scouting out the border region of Tokyo, to as reasonably a safe extent as possible. Consider using KyoClone as a probe unit if we can't get close enough to use clairvoyance for target info.
[X] Evaluate how the recent pairing adaptation has spread. Have those not in the immediate proximity of the original fight started pairing up? Do we have a mix of pairs and singles now, particularly on the far side of Tokyo?
[X] Evaluate the adaptation in relation to adaptations made by class 2 demons, from -10.0 (what Kyouko kept her territory at) to +10.0 (the max we allow in ours). At what point do class 2's start teaming up against magical girls attacks? Are there any other notable behavior change points along that scale?
-[X] Use the above info to create an analog of our DS scale for the class 3 demons. Continue to hunt, but aim to ensure that the C3DS does not go above its commensurate 10.0 level, and possibly keep a decent buffer, such as ~8.0.
-[X] Cross-reference behavior as reported by Tokyo locals to see if the same de-adaptation of hunting its normal prey (in this case, magical girls) happens as the C3DS increases.
[X] Continue to have Serena as the primary hunter, using a few of the proposed tactics that don't stretch the boundaries very much. Keep focus on evaluating the adaptation mechanisms.
-[X] Prioritize demon pairs, if the adaptation has been incomplete (ie: there's a mix of pairs and singles).
This avoids tactical decisions, as that has already been largely discussed and laid in with previous plans. This is primarily about strategic changes, and particularly, taking advantage of one of our areas of expertise to better understand what we're dealing with.
Haman's plan mentions to Nagoya that we have more experience with class 2's than class 3's. We shouldn't just be using that as an excuse; we should be trying to adapt our knowledge to this new situation.
If this actually plays out, we would actually have a reasonable justification for suggestions on Nagoya possibly withdrawing troops. If the key here is both to keep using the same tactic in order to slow their adaptation rate, but also to raise their DS high enough that they are poorly adapted to hunting magical girls, then that gives us a pretty straightforward path to cleaning out the rest of Tokyo (barring the issue with the teleporters). We'd be making it safer for the Tokyo locals even beyond the simple reduction in demon numbers.
The main caveat is the indication that the demons don't have many options in terms of physiological adaptation to Serena's power, which may negate the potential benefits of this route.
Regardless, though, this is a goal-based approach that makes use of our actual special skills, and I think is a useful addition to the next few days of scouting and analysis.
Class 2 demons prey on humans, and are hunted by magical girls. The more they are hunted by magical girls, the more they adapt to fighting magical girls, and the more they de-adapt from hunting humans.
Class 3 demons prey on magical girls, and are hunted by Serena (for the purposes of this analogy, as helix has stated that they recognize Serena as the top predator here). The more that Serena hunts them, the more they will adapt to fighting Serena... and the more they should de-adapt from hunting normal magical girls.
If we spike the class 3s' adaptations high enough, does that make normal magical girls more-or-less safe from their predations? It's a bizarre conclusion, but it does actually make sense. And it definitely falls in line with our line of expertise. We should be able to evaluate this line of thought and get solid answers.
If that were the case, we could also expect that pushing them too high leads to them heading for class 4 emergence. So what we need is a Class 3 DS meter, that we keep below 10.0.
This... this could actually be a key understanding....
OK, this was just a random idea, but it feels important, so I'm going to include it in how I approach our continued plan.
[X] Keep in touch with the Nagoya teams over the changes observed, and how that's affecting strategy decisions and outcome expectations. Note ideas on changes to how we'd like to utilize them during this campaign. Escalate discussions to Hino if deemed necessary. (This would have been the liaison's job, but can be managed during nominal idle time by the Tokyo team/Mami.)
[X] Slow down the attacks for a few days, while spending more time scouting out the border region of Tokyo, to as reasonably a safe extent as possible. Consider using KyoClone as a probe unit if we can't get close enough to use clairvoyance for target info.
[X] Evaluate how the recent pairing adaptation has spread. Have those not in the immediate proximity of the original fight started pairing up? Do we have a mix of pairs and singles now, particularly on the far side of Tokyo?
[X] Evaluate the adaptation in relation to adaptations made by class 2 demons, from -10.0 (what Kyouko kept her territory at) to +10.0 (the max we allow in ours). At what point do class 2's start teaming up against magical girls attacks? Are there any other notable behavior change points along that scale?
-[X] Use the above info to create an analog of our DS scale for the class 3 demons. Continue to hunt, but aim to ensure that the C3DS does not go above its commensurate 10.0 level, and possibly keep a decent buffer, such as ~8.0.
-[X] Cross-reference behavior as reported by Tokyo locals to see if the same de-adaptation of hunting its normal prey (in this case, magical girls) happens as the C3DS increases.
[X] Continue to have Serena as the primary hunter, using a few of the proposed tactics that don't stretch the boundaries very much. Keep focus on evaluating the adaptation mechanisms.
-[X] Prioritize demon pairs, if the adaptation has been incomplete (ie: there's a mix of pairs and singles).
This avoids tactical decisions, as that has already been largely discussed and laid in with previous plans. This is primarily about strategic changes, and particularly, taking advantage of one of our areas of expertise to better understand what we're dealing with.
Haman's plan mentions to Nagoya that we have more experience with class 2's than class 3's. We shouldn't just be using that as an excuse; we should be trying to adapt our knowledge to this new situation.
If this actually plays out, we would actually have a reasonable justification for suggestions on Nagoya possibly withdrawing troops. If the key here is both to keep using the same tactic in order to slow their adaptation rate, but also to raise their DS high enough that they are poorly adapted to hunting magical girls, then that gives us a pretty straightforward path to cleaning out the rest of Tokyo (barring the issue with the teleporters). We'd be making it safer for the Tokyo locals even beyond the simple reduction in demon numbers.
The main caveat is the indication that the demons don't have many options in terms of physiological adaptation to Serena's power, which may negate the potential benefits of this route.
Regardless, though, this is a goal-based approach that makes use of our actual special skills, and I think is a useful addition to the next few days of scouting and analysis.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Because it's far more likely the groups just hey bigger than demons start merging?
Everything through here is a reasonable line of speculation.
This does not match anything we know about demons. I will grant that this version of your thought is not as completely unlikely to occur, but it's still not a stated way for class 4's to develop. We might be able to ask for clarification.
However it's also not what you actually said. You said "merge into class 4's", which is something entirely different, and far more off-the-rails crazy.
This would be a disaster.
We'd only kill 4 demons total this month, and we'd waste massive amounts of manpower doing nothing.
I can think of nothing worse in the effect on reputation.
We got in character information from the incubators on how class 4 demons form. They have to kill and eat enough meguca to get there, so they don't actually merge.
Is it the worse case? Of course not, they might move up to using pack hunting. But that would basically free Tokyo girls from terror, and slow down their ability to split and/or become class 4.
Also, we will get in at least a few more kills before that happens. Then next month we take off to finish up research on Fusion Casting and/or negotiations with Heaven's Chosen. The third month we hit them again with new tech and new tactics.
That's worse case scenario.
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Also, as another aside, I was giving some thought to how we follow the Incubator's classification on demons, but our own classification on magical girls. It was actually part of a thought on some interactions in an omake I had tumbling around in my head, but haven't written yet.
Basically, I dislike using "class 3" and the like for demon designation, just as I'd dislike using "class 3" to talk about our elites, or "class 1" for our greens, etc. It feels too sterile and clinical. We're not Incubators.
In thinking about alternatives, I was reminded of how they classify disasters in One Punch Man, and was considering appropriating that for our use. Would people consider that OK?
In OPM, the categories are:
1) Wolf
2) Tiger
3) Demon
4) Dragon
5) God
I would adapt that as:
Wolf -> Class 2 demons (standard)
Tiger -> Class 3 demons
Oni -> Class 4 demons (changed from 'demon' because they're already demons) [other alternatives?]
Dragon -> Class 5 demons
God -> Sealed off by Madoka
Thoughts?
I'd still want to omake it to give it an IC justification.
Basically, I dislike using "class 3" and the like for demon designation, just as I'd dislike using "class 3" to talk about our elites, or "class 1" for our greens, etc. It feels too sterile and clinical. We're not Incubators.
In thinking about alternatives, I was reminded of how they classify disasters in One Punch Man, and was considering appropriating that for our use. Would people consider that OK?
In OPM, the categories are:
1) Wolf
2) Tiger
3) Demon
4) Dragon
5) God
I would adapt that as:
Wolf -> Class 2 demons (standard)
Tiger -> Class 3 demons
Oni -> Class 4 demons (changed from 'demon' because they're already demons) [other alternatives?]
Dragon -> Class 5 demons
God -> Sealed off by Madoka
Thoughts?
I'd still want to omake it to give it an IC justification.
Honestly, I see no need for this.
[X] Kinematics
Maybe the pack hunting idea would happen first, but I'd rather not risk the unknown that way.
How did you think I meant "merge into class 4's"? It's not terribly likely they're going to do some sort of DBZ-like fusion dance or something. Class 3s gain power by eating magic, and now that they're paired up the closest source of a lot of extra magic is the Class 3 right next to them. It stands to reason that, should a pair of Class 3s feel threatened enough that it needs to get stronger, that it's going to turn on its "buddy" and consume it to become a Class 4.
Maybe the pack hunting idea would happen first, but I'd rather not risk the unknown that way.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I have come up with a morale idea. It will be pricy so it's for after Tokyo.
We should have a birthday budget. Not just a bonus to a girl on her birthday, but also to make it a social thing. Every birthday a Puella lives to see is precious and should be celebrated.
Not as involved as a morale day, obviously, but still, something that should be recognized.
We should have a birthday budget. Not just a bonus to a girl on her birthday, but also to make it a social thing. Every birthday a Puella lives to see is precious and should be celebrated.
Not as involved as a morale day, obviously, but still, something that should be recognized.
Just a note on comparing mine and Haman's current votes:
For all practical purposes, everything before the Hino/Nagoya portion of his vote matches with what I'm proposing in my plan; I just kept the details a lot simpler.
The details of the Hino/Nagoya info updates are likewise summarized in my "keep the Nagoya teams updated on everything that's going on" line.
I'm not doing the bit on proposing the joint venture (at least not directly), because of the change in my outlook in what we need to be analyzing first. I'm holding off on getting the Nagoya teams directly involved until we have a better idea on whether my idea has merit.
I'm not listing specific attack tactics, as that seems outside the scope of this update plan. Anything that doesn't diverge too much is fine for the analysis portion.
So, in sum, there's almost no real difference, other than my additional analysis idea, and having that bump off getting the Nagoya teams directly involved while we're doing that analysis (to avoid polluting the data). I didn't reference his vote when writing mine out, but it ended up being mostly the same thing, in the end.
For all practical purposes, everything before the Hino/Nagoya portion of his vote matches with what I'm proposing in my plan; I just kept the details a lot simpler.
The details of the Hino/Nagoya info updates are likewise summarized in my "keep the Nagoya teams updated on everything that's going on" line.
I'm not doing the bit on proposing the joint venture (at least not directly), because of the change in my outlook in what we need to be analyzing first. I'm holding off on getting the Nagoya teams directly involved until we have a better idea on whether my idea has merit.
I'm not listing specific attack tactics, as that seems outside the scope of this update plan. Anything that doesn't diverge too much is fine for the analysis portion.
So, in sum, there's almost no real difference, other than my additional analysis idea, and having that bump off getting the Nagoya teams directly involved while we're doing that analysis (to avoid polluting the data). I didn't reference his vote when writing mine out, but it ended up being mostly the same thing, in the end.