Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

What should I do regarding a change in system?

  • Notgreat's proposed simplification of hunting, leave rest intact.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Chapter system vastly simplifying everything.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .
So looking at the last two turns, we make about 6000 dollars per month after expenses. We had about 74 girls including Ayase and Serena's group but discounting Kyoclone.

74/12 is roughly 6.2 birthdays a month. So if we spend like $200 per birthday that would cost us 1233.3 repeating dollars a turn.

I think we can afford it, although it'll slow down getting the church.
 
For our purposes, standard RT is most likely Aranfan's described version (which matches your current imagined version). It's much easier to implement, and has lower risks because of its simplicity.

Because of that, I considered that my own described version might be IRT — a more complicated and troublesome method, that has aspects that can slow down adaptation just a little bit more (and I can describe how those changes come into play based on the underlying premise, but it gets long and complicated), but because of the extra complexity, is more difficult and dangerous to implement.
Hmm this seems a reasonable explanation.

This is correct. Based on the assumed premise, the absolute best way to control demon adaptation is to give them as little to adapt to as possible, which means using the weakest possible tactics as much as possible. However that necessarily implies the greatest possible risk to the magical girl hunters.

It's sort of, "We could bring DS to a standstill, but it's so ridiculously dangerous that it's silly to treat that as a reasonable approach to the problem. It's technically doable, but it's not useful."
This matches with what I was thinking as well from your description.

@inverted_helix We already know in character both that the demons communicate and that the adaptations have spread as far as we can see, right?
Well technically you have evidence that the demons communicate, and that is the conclusion Nagoya works off of. However as you haven't detected their communications method you can't prove it. Non-pedantically you're sure.

The adaptation is spread throughout your detection zone.

If that were the case, we could also expect that pushing them too high leads to them heading for class 4 emergence. So what we need is a Class 3 DS meter, that we keep below 10.0.

This... this could actually be a key understanding....

OK, this was just a random idea, but it feels important, so I'm going to include it in how I approach our continued plan.
While theoretically possible, you don't have nearly the depth of data that you did on normal demons when you put together your original DS meter, let alone when you refined it so precisely.

Basically, I dislike using "class 3" and the like for demon designation, just as I'd dislike using "class 3" to talk about our elites, or "class 1" for our greens, etc. It feels too sterile and clinical. We're not Incubators.
Honestly this has bothered me a bit as well.



I'm hoping to update late tonight/tomorrow morning, just to keep things moving. If there isn't too much dissent.
 
Vote tally:
##### 3.19
[X] Reduce combat actions to once a hunting day. Expand the time between hunting days to two days. (Alternating a hunting day with two off-hunting days). Use the extra time off for additional practice and training for future combat.
[X] Have Kyoclone spend the off-hunting day scouting out the abilities of the various demon pairs. Identify if they have clairvoyance, barriers, healing, etc. If Kyoclone gets into bad trouble, just have Kyouko dismiss her and re-summon her instead of risking her being killed.
-[X] Choose targets for the various tactics below with these abilities in mind
[X] Make our way around the edges of the city, avoiding the center where the eyeball is, and clearing the rest of the city as much as possible.
[X] Numbers of combat actions with each tactic are guidelines, the point is to lesson the ability of the demons adapt, but to balance that with risk and safety concerns. The exact number of times a tactic is used can be adjusted as experience and new information dictates.
[X] For the next two combat actions (and/or till they adapt again), continue to use the Serena Co. as the hunters, with the Mobile CC plan (specified in detail the [a href="[URL="https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/meguca-micro-empire-quest-pmmm.8632/page-282#post-5624090"]Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM) | Page 282[/URL]" class="internalLink"]first plan[/a]).
-[X] Try to attack at least one pair that has one demon with teleportation to see how they react. (Do they flee? Do they teleport the other demon away as well? - If so we need another mini turn to figure out how to respond, as the decision tree is far too complicated.)
[X] Contact Hino/Nagoya to give her an update on the current status of the hunt.
-[X] The teleporting demons fled Serena immediately instead of swarming to fight her as we had hoped based on our initial information about demon behavior. This means we assess the threat of demons fleeing Tokyo as much reduced.
-[X] While we have much experience with class 2 demon adaptation, this is our first experience with significant numbers of class 3 demons. They are adapting much faster than the class 2 demons did and in new ways, as they have begun patrolling in pairs. The class 3 demon behavior is matching up with our worst case estimates rather than the middle case or best case. Because of this we now assess that a 1 month clearing of Tokyo is impossible, and 3 months highly likely.
-[X] We know that Nagoya has other needs, and would understand if they wish to move some forces back to Nagoya for other purposes. Alternatively, suggest that Nagoya could help in a more direct way: a coordinated attack on two different patrols at the same time, which may be useful as an additional tactic that the demons will have not yet adapted too. See if Hino/Nagoya would be willing to attempt this?
[X] If Hino/Nagoya agree to the joint action (and there has still not been a shift in combat tactics) : Attack using the Serena Co. w/ mobile CC tactic. Nagoya meanwhile targets a different pair of demons.
-[X] Make sure to use scouting by Kyoclone to identify pairs of demons with abilities that Nagoya feels comfortable dealing with.
[X] For the next two combat actions (and/or till they adapt again) use the Support Team with Serena untransformed plan:
-[X] Use scouting reports to pick demon pairs for this that are suitable for the tactic (no clairvoyants or barrier breakers, etc.)
[X] For the next three combat actions, use the Solo Girl Lures into Ambush Plan:
-[X] Use scouting reports to pick demon pairs for this that are suitable for the tactic
No. of votes: 2
Elder Haman, Powerofmind
[X] TheEyes
No. of votes: 1
Skelm
[X] Keep in touch with the Nagoya teams over the changes observed, and how that's affecting strategy decisions and outcome expectations. Note ideas on changes to how we'd like to utilize them during this campaign. Escalate discussions to Hino if deemed necessary. (This would have been the liaison's job, but can be managed during nominal idle time by the Tokyo team/Mami.)
[X] Slow down the attacks for a few days, while spending more time scouting out the border region of Tokyo, to as reasonably a safe extent as possible. Consider using KyoClone as a probe unit if we can't get close enough to use clairvoyance for target info.
[X] Evaluate how the recent pairing adaptation has spread. Have those not in the immediate proximity of the original fight started pairing up? Do we have a mix of pairs and singles now, particularly on the far side of Tokyo?
[X] Evaluate the adaptation in relation to adaptations made by class 2 demons, from -10.0 (what Kyouko kept her territory at) to +10.0 (the max we allow in ours). At what point do class 2's start teaming up against magical girls attacks? Are there any other notable behavior change points along that scale?
-[X] Use the above info to create an analog of our DS scale for the class 3 demons. Continue to hunt, but aim to ensure that the C3DS does not go above its commensurate 10.0 level, and possibly keep a decent buffer, such as ~8.0.
-[X] Cross-reference behavior as reported by Tokyo locals to see if the same de-adaptation of hunting its normal prey (in this case, magical girls) happens as the C3DS increases.
[X] Continue to have Serena as the primary hunter, using a few of the proposed tactics that don't stretch the boundaries very much. Keep focus on evaluating the adaptation mechanisms.
-[X] Prioritize demon pairs, if the adaptation has been incomplete (ie: there's a mix of pairs and singles).
No. of votes: 3
Kinematics, Aranfan, TheEyes

Plan kine is winning with Skelm having jumped ship from Haman.
 
So it would be something like: +30 Casualty %, .2 DS multiplier

??
Something vaguely like that, yeah.

While theoretically possible, you don't have nearly the depth of data that you did on normal demons when you put together your original DS meter, let alone when you refined it so precisely.
Well, as you noted in Nagoya's view of us, we're supposed to be the experts. We have more data, more records, and more analysis of demons in general than anyone else in the country. We regularly spend time with demons at all ranges of DS from 0 to 10, and have some experience at negative DS values as well.

That's part of what made it all connect together as I had the idea. We've kind of flailed around, forgetting things we should have anticipated, but this really is our area of expertise.

We should have common behavior patterns, grouping triggers, adaptation rates, adaptation effect ranges, and so on and so forth, from hundreds of reports over the months. We have people analyzing this data all the time. We have sufficient understanding to measure DS to units of 0.1.

For territory expansion, we're the diplomatic group, and rely heavily on that. For governmental structure, we have a flat, family/cult environment, where everyone is basically equal. We have only a modest bit of magical research, primarily in materials science. We have only the most minimal PvP skills, from a single month of training that would probably be on a YouTube channel mocking us if it weren't for the masquerade. Our business endeavors are decent, but by no means exceptional.

But the one thing that we have done religiously for the last couple years, to the point of obsession, is analyzing and understanding demon behavior. Basic rotating tactics and improved rotating tactics; dispatch and improved dispatch; system measurement, recordkeeping, etc. We try to present our strengths as being diplomatic, and being the "happy" meguca organization, but both of those on a bit of shaky ground. But one thing that cannot be disputed is the effort we put into tracking and analyzing demons. It doesn't even come up in a list of our strengths when we try to promote ourselves because it's so fundamental we don't even think about it.


So when we apply that focus to the class 3s, it doesn't matter that we're lacking in explicit data; we have tons of tables to compare and correlate to, adaptation reactions to scale against, and so much data that if anyone can develop a model of understanding on class 3's (other than the Incubators), it's us.

Now, I would not be surprised if this requires actual meguca hours to develop, and it may need to go into next month to really solidify on, but I absolutely do expect this to be something we can do, and should be able to master based on how our group has developed over time.
 
as you noted in Nagoya's view of us, we're supposed to be the experts.
Something to keep in mind was that was their view of you. Pretty much no one has really solid information on others.

we have a flat, family/cult environment, where everyone is basically equal
This is not inherently a bad thing. Though it certainly doesn't scale well.

We try to present our strengths as being diplomatic
I've been trying to give you way more opportunity to show off your diplomacy of late, and make the diplomacy itself more interesting than mere dice rolls in cases where you have more information. Like asking Nagoya for help with Tokyo the die roll was nearly irrelevant because you were doing something they wanted. The roll was basically how much rather than if they would or not.

So when we apply that focus to the class 3s, it doesn't matter that we're lacking in explicit data; we have tons of tables to compare and correlate to, adaptation reactions to scale against, and so much data that if anyone can develop a model of understanding on class 3's (other than the Incubators), it's us.
Thing is you've got really good model of normal demons, but this is similar to taking a weather forecast simulation designed for California and trying to apply it to Catalonia. There's a huge number of variables that you need data on to recalibrate. Granted the skill in weather modeling and much of the model can be reappropriated, but you still need data on the new location to work with.

It also would definitely take significant hours to try to make it work.
 
Class 3 demons prey on magical girls, and are hunted by Serena (for the purposes of this analogy, as helix has stated that they recognize Serena as the top predator here). The more that Serena hunts them, the more they will adapt to fighting Serena... and the more they should de-adapt from hunting normal magical girls.

If we spike the class 3s' adaptations high enough, does that make normal magical girls more-or-less safe from their predations? It's a bizarre conclusion, but it does actually make sense. And it definitely falls in line with our line of expertise. We should be able to evaluate this line of thought and get solid answers.

I very much like the idea of de-adapting Class 3s from fighting normal magical girls. And the idea of a DS meter for Class 3s. But you said it yourself:

We'd be making it safer for the Tokyo locals even beyond the simple reduction in demon numbers.

The main caveat is the indication that the demons don't have many options in terms of physiological adaptation to Serena's power, which may negate the potential benefits of this route.

I'm not so sure fighting Serena is all that different from fighting a normal magical girl, at least not in the sense that would benefit normal magical girls, if that makes sense. As in if we view Serena as top dog, then demons that are adapted to fighting the top dog don't suddenly get worse at fighting all the little tiny dogs. Wouldn't the Class 3s just end up being more effective against normal girls? Since any tactic that gets even close to working on Serena would almost definitely cause casualties for any other group?

I think we should definitely engage in a plan that revolves around understanding what we're throwing ourselves into. The forces we're bringing can't exactly absorb losses due to both a lack of meaningful (vet vs elite) numbers and overall group morale. I wouldn't even want to if it were possible. And your plan does seem like the one that's more oriented to getting a firm understanding of what's going on. But atm unless I'm interpreting it wrong I don't see how it'd actually go about de-adapting Class 3s from fighting regular meguca.
 
I'm not sure there's much difference between the two plans right now, but since we need to assign meguca-months to gauging Class 3 demon strength then there's not much point in trying right now.

[X] Elder Haman

I'm not so sure fighting Serena is all that different from fighting a normal magical girl, at least not in the sense that would benefit normal magical girls, if that makes sense. As in if we view Serena as top dog, then demons that are adapted to fighting the top dog don't suddenly get worse at fighting all the little tiny dogs. Wouldn't the Class 3s just end up being more effective against normal girls? Since any tactic that gets even close to working on Serena would almost definitely cause casualties for any other group?
Well their only adaption so far is teaming up, which should reduce the number of people they can attack without making attacks much worse (because they usually win even on their own), so it's working so far.
 
Thing is you've got really good model of normal demons, but this is similar to taking a weather forecast simulation designed for California and trying to apply it to Catalonia. There's a huge number of variables that you need data on to recalibrate. Granted the skill in weather modeling and much of the model can be reappropriated, but you still need data on the new location to work with.

It also would definitely take significant hours to try to make it work.

This is kind of my thought on the matter. Can we assume that we are at least recording all the information about the demon behavior we see? In keeping with our data driven obsession.

And that perhaps we can spend some meguca months at some point analyzing it to try and figure out how class 3 demons adapt and behave?

Since there is a likelihood of sending Serena out on demon clearing expeditions in the future, we ought to try and become good at this.
 
First post on SV

first, @inverted_helix , I really like this quest and it's the main reason I finaly made an Acount.:)

Now to the actuall quest, if I understand the Situatuon right, the main Problem is how the Teleporter run away becaus of Serena's Aura.

So, its probably a bad Idear but coud we use barrierbombs to defeat them?

In Turn 32 the boosted Barriers were descript as battering rams. We coud teach betty how to tandemchast and then use teleporters and claivoriants to drop a dossen bombs on the paird demons.

It prevents them from teleporting, due to Serenas aura and shoud get more effectiv, the more the demons group up.
won't work on the Eyeball thougt.:mad:
 
I thougt the demons teleport becaus of Serenas aura, the bombs coud work independent of Serena and so "hit" the demons befor they teleport away.

For the tandemchasting, I thougt she coud work white any other shield specialist, dependent on how long they ar in Sereanas Aura and how long the chasting takes.
 
@inverted_helix

For the birthday budget idea, what would be a reasonable meguca month cost for it? I don't envision it as making every girl's birthday a morale day, that would be far too expensive, but I do imagine at least some of our girls attending and celebrating.
 
I thougt the demons teleport becaus of Serenas aura, the bombs coud work independent of Serena and so "hit" the demons befor they teleport away.

Demons teleport because they have teleport powers. So they will teleport anytime it is advantageous to do so. They teleport right away when Serena's aura shows up, but would also likely do so if significantly hurt by something like a barrier bomb. Also, barrier bombs are likely hard to control and hard to do enough damage with.

For the tandemchasting, I thougt she coud work white any other shield specialist, dependent on how long they ar in Sereanas Aura and how long the chasting takes.

Then why use Betty Rae at all? Why not just have two normal barrier girls do the tandem casting?
 
Well their only adaption so far is teaming up, which should reduce the number of people they can attack without making attacks much worse (because they usually win even on their own), so it's working so far.
This is the adaption you're looking at more. It's a loss in efficiency of harvesting normal meguca. But it's not actually making them more vulnerable to normal meguca.

first, @inverted_helix , I really like this quest and it's the main reason I finaly made an Acount.:)
Always glad to have new participants.

I've been a bit delayed in having opportunity to write, it's still upcoming as soon as I can though.
 
Demons teleport because they have teleport powers. So they will teleport anytime it is advantageous to do so. They teleport right away when Serena's aura shows up, but would also likely do so if significantly hurt by something like a barrier bomb. Also, barrier bombs are likely hard to control and hard to do enough damage with.

I want to use the bombs to defeat one demon, in one attack, befor it can Teleport.
Thats also the reason why I mentiont serenas aura and Betty Rea.
tandem charms are always stronger than what a single caster can do.
So 2 vets make a Elite Charm, and 2 Elite+ girls shoud make a Legendery charm. probably. mabye.

I see it as a way to get more power into the charms and kep the time, the girls, spend inside Serenas aura as short as possible, because on of the two casters is in there anyway.

But the point about the controle is probably right.

I just wanted to mention the Possibility.
 
I want to use the bombs to defeat one demon, in one attack, befor it can Teleport.
Thats also the reason why I mentiont serenas aura and Betty Rea.
tandem charms are always stronger than what a single caster can do.
So 2 vets make a Elite Charm, and 2 Elite+ girls shoud make a Legendery charm. probably. mabye.

I see it as a way to get more power into the charms and kep the time, the girls, spend inside Serenas aura as short as possible, because on of the two casters is in there anyway.

But the point about the controle is probably right.

I just wanted to mention the Possibility.
Well, I include barrier bombs in my plan, so I agree they are a good idea.

But I don't think they are going to be able to kill a demon alone. I think they fit more as a supplementary tactic.
 
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