Yes, but what about the risk of it attacking when Serena is without support?
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)
- Thread starter inverted_helix
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Yes, but what about the risk of it attacking when Serena is without support?
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I think the risk is minimal, considering it doesn't really move around that much, excepting when Serena is clearing it's territory. And frankly I'd bet on Serena and retinue over the Eyeball in a fight. Remember, Serena's walking all over the Class 3s so it's likely that is is a reduction of a full class, and if the eyeball is nerfed to a class 3 then 5 Elite+s is overkill.
One thing we should have Serena be doing is hunting Tokyo, not just he class threes. Depending on how big her collection modifier is that might help push up demon strength.
@inverted_helix Would Serena be able to hunt Tokyo enough to noticeably increase DS? By which I mean have it feel less oppressive to live in tokyo?
Um, from the post itself:
Emphasis mine. They're weakened enough that her retinue of 5 Elite+s has no problem taking on multiple Class 3s, but a Class 4 is likely a different animal entirely.
Definitely impossible. The Greater Tokyo Area has a population of around 38 million; that's a sustainable hunting area of 1520-1900, depending on if it's 20K humans per territory or 25K. To actually bring up DS, Serena would have to hunt hundreds of GCUs worth of demons by herself, in addition to whatever the existing Tokyo girls hunt, and she would inevitably run into the eyeball if we went that route anyway.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Okay, in that case it's probably wise to alpha strike the Eyeball to put the fear of Serena into it before she starts picking off the non-teleporters. If we bring all of our support team and all of Nagoya's combat teams we might even be able to get lucky and kill the damn thing.
Not quite.
Well yeah, but it should have been obvious anyways. I mean I gave mixed messages because you had no way of knowing for sure in character. But it still seemed pretty obvious.
Been contemplating ability to rush research this way. But there will definitely be some steep diminishing return. Research in general isn't something that throwing twice the budget at makes go twice as fast.
Thinking along the lines of each additional roll requires 1.5x the resources of the previous roll. So first roll is base X resources, second roll requires an additional 1.5X resources (so 2 rolls for total 2.5x resources), third roll requires another 2.25X resources (So 3 rolls for total 4.75X resources). Still fiddling with numbers to find something balanced.
Nagoya does not, if they had one they'd have used her. They do have some leads though. The Heaven's Chosen makes use of anti-teleportation effects, but Yashiro Hiko has no interest in Tokyo being saved, and has completely rejected their efforts at buying whatever is being used.
Precisely. Tokyo is too big for her to have much impact on.
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Given that the beholder has both barrier magic and teleportation magic, it's entirely possible that its interdiction effect is in fact an implementation of tandem fusion on those two magic types. Once we research up the effects, we may have a much better idea of what the beholder's aura is actually doing.
As such, I'm against any attempts to rush at the beholder before we have some method of dealing with the teleportation. It's a premature action.
On the other hand, even without the new information, most of every day that the teams are out there will have the vet team sitting idle, so it's not unreasonable to have them use that idle time to brainstorm ideas or try experiments.
Maybe, maybe not. It may jump out if it's losing, but it could very well stay during the first part of each fight in the hopes of successfully sniping one or two magical girls before it has to run. Basically, it could try the attrition method on us, with the guarantee that it can always escape, and always heal up afterwards.
As such, I'm against any attempts to rush at the beholder before we have some method of dealing with the teleportation. It's a premature action.
That's the main reason my proposal didn't include just pulling most of the CC team out for research. There's too much uncertainty about what can happen to Serena without any support (whether it's the beholder attacking, or a swarm of teleporters, or stealth demons).
On the other hand, even without the new information, most of every day that the teams are out there will have the vet team sitting idle, so it's not unreasonable to have them use that idle time to brainstorm ideas or try experiments.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I agree with Haman, your writing is great and nothing to get down on yourself about.
What about Kyubey? Can he put us into contact with such a girl?
What about Kyubey? Can he put us into contact with such a girl?
Eh, sort of. That assumption depends on also assuming that the demons are constantly living in paranoid fear of the magical girls. Given the current situation, that is very much not the case. The ability to be absolutely certain they can beat the presented team, and thus attack, or be absolutely certain that they'd lose, and thus immediately run, sounds like more video-game-ish behavior than we were told to expect.
Even when prey animals can beat off predators (eg: antelopes prepared for and defending against a lion), the predator doesn't just run off immediately; it stays and probes and tests for any weaknesses. Of course Serena's aura does throw a bit of a wrench in that analogy, but there's still the expectation that a predator doesn't quit being a predator at the flip of a switch.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
@inverted_helix what are the stats and powers of our new recruit? If she has teleportation interdiction that would be ace.
Really? I think your expectation of anyone having that power is being wildly overoptimistic. Particularly of someone who was trying to escape Tokyo. After all, if they had interdiction powers, they won't need to worry about getting jumped by teleporters while they tried to escape.
Serena's not so much a prey animal as a 2 kilometer wide circle of fire. There's a level where they know there's no point in trying.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Doesn't hurt to ask.
Anti-magic type wishes are incredibly rare as a consequence of most girls at the time of their wish not having ever known real magic. Wishing for parents not to move is more likely to prompt either something along the lines of Mami's ribbons, or something related to why they're moving in the first place.
The behavior you expected is what Nagoya's used to seeing when they deploy large teams. Though you're presenting it as some sort of binary switch point. When really it's a spectrum: individuals/small groups it knows it can defeat -> moderate groups it's not sure of -> large groups it knows it can't beat but might come back later with friends.
The problem for you is Serena's aura. It basically is marking her as the apex predator, not as a prey animal that happens to be able to defend itself. To a demon Serena basically isn't even the same species as magical girls. Lions may attack humans occasionally, they don't attack humans in tanks.
Exactly.
Veteran, no particular powers. Literally rolled a 1 on the wish magic roll.
Quoting myself, edited this in a minute after posting and seems to have been missed.
This is one of a couple options. But so far the only one you even got close enough for me to reference.
True.
I'd consider a revised strategy where we don't use Serena's full transformed aura (at least, at first), but that kind of defeats the entire point of having Serena. Even if she activated after they arrived and we'd engaged, as soon as she activates, we can expect them to teleport out.
Ah.. I don't remember that little bit at all.... That certainly would have made getting in contact with them far more compelling. (Edit: Oh, this is a recent post, not something earlier on from when we were talking to Nagoya.)
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You didn't actually tell Nagoya you needed help with teleporters before. There wasn't any reason to mention it (and they aren't going to talk about people they don't get along with for no reason after all). As far as they knew you had a plan.
OK.
Teleporters will run from Serena with her aura up.
We cannot expect to fight the teleporters without Serena's full aura, as that's basically what Nagoya did, and they had no success either.
We cannot clear Tokyo without neutralizing the teleporters, because they jump right back into an area once Serena has left.
We cannot track teleporters when they teleport.
We cannot maintain a constant scan of Tokyo to see where they pop up (ie: clairvoyance limitations).
I can think of a few ideas for dealing with the teleportation:
1) Teleport barriers. Negate the ability of the demons to teleport out of an area. Requires Fusion research to be completed.
2) Mental attacks (telepathy and/or illusion). Disorientation and confusion, preventing them from being able to select a coherent destination to teleport to. Might require Fusion research to be completed (ie: Telepathy+Illusion). Alt: Lethargy (ie: Kaoru's emotional effects).
3) Teleportation Interdiction. Space manipulation. Warp the teleportation corridors so that any attempts to teleport out always return the user back to a designated spot. Almost certainly requires high-level manipulation of teleportation magic. Seto? Probably tandem as well. Can we figure this out? We have clues from the clairvoyance limitations about how magical projection works.
4) Teleport other. What happens if a teleporter is teleported right when they're trying to teleport themselves? Can a teleporter 'ride' the demon, and keep teleporting it within the current area, preventing it from escaping?
Basically, either they physically can't leave (barriers), mentally can't leave (disorientation), magically can't leave (magical projection doesn't lead anywhere), or are constantly interrupted.
5) Remote sniping. Penetrate the miasma via clairvoyance, and take them out with a high powered attack from range. Possibly doable with a tandem setup between Taya and Yoko (boosted with aura?). Needs very tight coordination with Serena getting close enough to hit the demon with the aura, but before they can run. Is this even doable? If they can't shoot directly through the clairvoyance tunnel, can they shoot into the miasma from outside, if they're able to see into the miasma? Possibly needs Fusion magic (Teleportation+Clairvoyance).
6) Homura. But, without timestop, is there any degree of raw speed that could work? Akeno? (Kinda scared of what Akeno in Serena's full aura could do.)
@inverted_helix - Are there any parts of these that we know (or can trivially check) either can or can't be done?
Teleporters will run from Serena with her aura up.
We cannot expect to fight the teleporters without Serena's full aura, as that's basically what Nagoya did, and they had no success either.
We cannot clear Tokyo without neutralizing the teleporters, because they jump right back into an area once Serena has left.
We cannot track teleporters when they teleport.
We cannot maintain a constant scan of Tokyo to see where they pop up (ie: clairvoyance limitations).
I can think of a few ideas for dealing with the teleportation:
1) Teleport barriers. Negate the ability of the demons to teleport out of an area. Requires Fusion research to be completed.
2) Mental attacks (telepathy and/or illusion). Disorientation and confusion, preventing them from being able to select a coherent destination to teleport to. Might require Fusion research to be completed (ie: Telepathy+Illusion). Alt: Lethargy (ie: Kaoru's emotional effects).
3) Teleportation Interdiction. Space manipulation. Warp the teleportation corridors so that any attempts to teleport out always return the user back to a designated spot. Almost certainly requires high-level manipulation of teleportation magic. Seto? Probably tandem as well. Can we figure this out? We have clues from the clairvoyance limitations about how magical projection works.
4) Teleport other. What happens if a teleporter is teleported right when they're trying to teleport themselves? Can a teleporter 'ride' the demon, and keep teleporting it within the current area, preventing it from escaping?
Basically, either they physically can't leave (barriers), mentally can't leave (disorientation), magically can't leave (magical projection doesn't lead anywhere), or are constantly interrupted.
5) Remote sniping. Penetrate the miasma via clairvoyance, and take them out with a high powered attack from range. Possibly doable with a tandem setup between Taya and Yoko (boosted with aura?). Needs very tight coordination with Serena getting close enough to hit the demon with the aura, but before they can run. Is this even doable? If they can't shoot directly through the clairvoyance tunnel, can they shoot into the miasma from outside, if they're able to see into the miasma? Possibly needs Fusion magic (Teleportation+Clairvoyance).
6) Homura. But, without timestop, is there any degree of raw speed that could work? Akeno? (Kinda scared of what Akeno in Serena's full aura could do.)
@inverted_helix - Are there any parts of these that we know (or can trivially check) either can or can't be done?
Wouldn't the Incubators have mentioned such a girl the last time we asked? The Incubators aren't stupid; they know, probably better than we did at the time, that teleporting demons are a problem, probably the primary problem with cleaning up Tokyo. It stands to reason that such a meguca doesn't exist, or we'd have gotten a profile on her back when we asked for such profiles, which implies that the new Heaven's Chosen interdiction method is a technique/technology rather than a girl. This, to my mind, was one of the reasons Serena was suggested in the first place: in the absence of actual combat data, it was reasonably likely that Serena could disorient the teleporting Class 3s so that they could be safely eliminated. Too bad it didn't work.
It's important to remember that the Incubators are amoral, not malicious. They in fact want us to succeed, however much they are capable of "wanting" things, since a failure in Tokyo means a lifetime loss of tens to hundreds of thousands of cubes worth of anti-entropy grief, so deliberately holding back cheap information is contraindicated. It's actually a rather huge advantage for us, since the Serene are one of the few groups around who aren't either too afraid of or too hateful of/bitter at the Incubators to properly deal with them.
I think the part that was "obvious" was that Serena and her group could easily handle regular Class 3s, not that the Class 3s would immediately run from her aura. The former is what we received contradictory information on, but could reasonably assume was the case; the later was a complete unknown at the time.
Be glad you haven't had some of the GM's I have.
We did... our plan was based on the behavior of the teleporters as described by Nagoya.
At your current level doesn't seem effective. At least trying such against your own teleporters. Not something you've put a lot of effort or training into though.
This would be a huge research project. Like a post Tokyo manpower long term research. I kind of suspect you don't even realize how broad what you're asking for with this would be.
You mean rodeo riding something trying to murder them? No one is anxious to try it but you could try it.
As the Incubators with their orbital bombardment methods can tell you, the issue is that the miasma is actually a very very effective barrier. Almost all energy doesn't transition through the miasma.
Ah yes, Newton's Laws of Motion. We have dismissed this claim.
Well, not entirely, but they're more poorly worded suggestions. Something along the lines of being able to reduce or increase the inertial mass of the target by 10x. With "target" becoming a much larger term than normal as well. Akeno may now have plans to go to space. Pay no attention to the orbital mechanics textbook hidden under her bed.
But that's not actually very useful to your current situation.
Hah kind of true.
The thing was that the teleporters were reacting to a large herd of prey animals with Nagoya, with Serena they're reacting to a tank or a wildfire.
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Potential Strategy for attacking the Eyeball
Prepare barrier bomb charms.
Get the eyeball location from Kyubey. Move into teleportation range protected by Serena's aura - clear out any non-teleporting demons.
Teleporters and Clairvoyants determine the exact safe range to teleport in around the Eyeball. (Should be able to do this quickly).
Teleport just outside the interdiction zone (and at least far enough out that Serena's aura doe not reach the Eyeball). Teleporters teleport back to safe territory.
Serena is transformed. Triple Tandem Barrier the whole party. Vet Tandem Stealth over the whole party. Elite Tandem Stealth over the support team (ie everyone but Serena and Team). Approach the eyeball.
Scenario 1: It immediately flees Serena's Aura:
Have Serena begin clearing all the non-teleporters, while everyone else goes and does research.
Scenario 2: It stays and fights:
Have Serena & Co. fight defensively while the stealthed support team gets ready. Once the demon takes significant damage, or if Serena starts to have problems, all out surprise attack on the Eyeball from stealth, Including barrier bomb charms.
If we fail to kill it and it flees, have Kyubey tell us the new location (including how many other demons are around it) and call the teleporters back to teleport us as close as possible.
If surrounded by demons, approach using the same method as previously (Serena transformed). If no demons are around it, approach with Serena untransformed, and the Elite Stealth field placed over Serena. Upon reaching the eyeball, have Serena transform just as we launch our major attack.
I figure after two attempts if we fail to kill it we back off and let Serena begin clearing non-teleporters. Pretty sure it won't try to get Serena after that.
This way we get a full 3/4 of our people back for research instead of just 1/2.
Prepare barrier bomb charms.
Get the eyeball location from Kyubey. Move into teleportation range protected by Serena's aura - clear out any non-teleporting demons.
Teleporters and Clairvoyants determine the exact safe range to teleport in around the Eyeball. (Should be able to do this quickly).
Teleport just outside the interdiction zone (and at least far enough out that Serena's aura doe not reach the Eyeball). Teleporters teleport back to safe territory.
Serena is transformed. Triple Tandem Barrier the whole party. Vet Tandem Stealth over the whole party. Elite Tandem Stealth over the support team (ie everyone but Serena and Team). Approach the eyeball.
Scenario 1: It immediately flees Serena's Aura:
Have Serena begin clearing all the non-teleporters, while everyone else goes and does research.
Scenario 2: It stays and fights:
Have Serena & Co. fight defensively while the stealthed support team gets ready. Once the demon takes significant damage, or if Serena starts to have problems, all out surprise attack on the Eyeball from stealth, Including barrier bomb charms.
If we fail to kill it and it flees, have Kyubey tell us the new location (including how many other demons are around it) and call the teleporters back to teleport us as close as possible.
If surrounded by demons, approach using the same method as previously (Serena transformed). If no demons are around it, approach with Serena untransformed, and the Elite Stealth field placed over Serena. Upon reaching the eyeball, have Serena transform just as we launch our major attack.
I figure after two attempts if we fail to kill it we back off and let Serena begin clearing non-teleporters. Pretty sure it won't try to get Serena after that.
This way we get a full 3/4 of our people back for research instead of just 1/2.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Can our teleporters port out from under a barrier? If they can't then Thunderdome might be viable.
Of course it is!
Reduce the inertial mass. Kick the eyeball into outer space.
Just like this:
It's a foolproof plan.
Joseph Joestar approved.
Already asked and answered. They can.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I believe you but can I get a link?