Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)

[inverted_helix]

(Edit): Umm... now the netbook upkeep is the same as the bike+shield+armor upkeep. That seems a little much, given that the later see active combat, don't you think?

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Honestly there's a lot more to break on a computer than a sheet of steel. Or even a bicycle. I actually have the shields at like 1/30th cost maintenance per month.

Oh, I think I remember the upkeep included actual decent internet, too. Right now we have a pretty minimal connection, because only one or two computers were connecting to it.

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Hmm that's a good point as well. $10 a month is actually pretty cheap on getting decent internet.

We had all kinds of detectors, even before computers.

The hard part will be figuring out how to make the barrier trigger when a condition is met.

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Most detectors before computers though relied on someone actually reading the detector output though. One of the key limitations here is that there's no if/then inherent in the anchors, no processing capability at all.

See this, right here? This is, in a very crude form, magical lambda

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I have no idea the connection you're trying to draw here. I thought that research was essentially to allow you to stockpile spells for a much longer timespan to be used as needed. It's basically just taking the battery out of your flashlight so it doesn't run down when you're not using it. I don't understand how that connects into programming.

Iterate these three for about two hundred, three hundred years? Hello Raising Heart.

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So long as you keep in mind the extreme time scale of that goal it's fine. But you aren't going to be going from iron age to railguns in a couple years in this quest

Would you mind stating what kind of time we can get off of our enchantments with max insulation?

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I haven't said before, but currently something on the order of hours.

 

[racnor]

Yes, you're absolutely right that magical sensors, or some other way of getting input from the outside world is essential. But, once you do, no matter how crudely? The possibilities explode.

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I'm not sure what you are saying here. The issue isn't that the clairvoyant enchantment cannot collect data, it's that the only thing capable of processing that data is a clairvoyant holding the object, which defeats the point.

I haven't said before, but currently something on the order of hours.

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So long enough to keep traded enchantments active with minimal maintainence if we go down that route, but not long enough to leave an item with a mundane overnight or anything.

Sadly, the only method I can think of to extend this further would be to lay the enchantment on a piece of Aerogel (though that would have the benefit of looking appropriately magical).

 

[Elder Haman]

Most detectors before computers though relied on someone actually reading the detector output though. One of the key limitations here is that there's no if/then inherent in the anchors, no processing capability at all.

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Actually, that's not true. Often they were mechanical devices that triggered some signal when certain conditions were met. Such as sounding a whistle when a container is full.

In fact, gas pumps are an example on a commonly used detector that is still mechanical. They detect when the gas reaches the pump and that condition automatically shuts down the pump.

For magic demon detectors the key would be to design the anchoring spell containing the magic signal to breakdown in the presence of miasma. Once enough miasma has accumulated nearby, the container would break, releasing the main spell which signals the clairvoyant and provides maybe a snapshot of the area around the charm?

Demon detectors are probably the easiest to do.

Magical girl detectors would be harder, but ought to be possible.

 

[racnor]

Actually, that's not true. Often they were mechanical devices that triggered some signal when certain conditions were met. Such as sounding a whistle when a container is full.

In fact, gas pumps are an example on a commonly used detector that is still mechanical. They detect when the gas reaches the pump and that condition automatically shuts down the pump.

For magic demon detectors the key would be to design the anchoring spell containing the magic signal to breakdown in the presence of miasma. Once enough miasma has accumulated nearby, the container would break, releasing the main spell which signals the clairvoyant and provides maybe a snapshot of the area around the charm?

Demon detectors are probably the easiest to do.

Magical girl detectors would be harder, but ought to be possible.

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Ah, I think I have found the disconnect in our chains of reasoning. You are assuming that the clairvoyance spell would send information to the girl who cast it when the enchantment wears off. I am assuming that you have to be touching the enchanted item to receieve the info from the spell.
@inverted_helix, could you clairfy here?

 

[TheEyes]

Honestly there's a lot more to break on a computer than a sheet of steel. Or even a bicycle. I actually have the shields at like 1/30th cost maintenance per month.

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Okay, I can see that.

I have no idea the connection you're trying to draw here. I thought that research was essentially to allow you to stockpile spells for a much longer timespan to be used as needed. It's basically just taking the battery out of your flashlight so it doesn't run down when you're not using it. I don't understand how that connects into programming.

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Yes, that's exactly what spell-binding does, and in the beginning that's all we'll be using it for.

The thing is, the way it does this is called function abstraction: you take an input (magical energy) and create an output (also magical energy, just shaped a little differently). In computer science terminology, this is called lambda, and can be used to create a Turing-complete functional programming language. So long as you can also store the power to keep all these nested lambdas going--which is what my Spell Trigger research idea is for--then there's your magical signal processor, in the form of a very low-level magic functional programming language.

Cue several of our girls going to get computer science and applied math degrees. One girl writes a magical assembler; another a magical compiler; another a magical IDE, and boom, Raising Heart, version 0.001 pre-alpha.

Like I said, I'm probably missing a few steps here; @Kinematics what do you think?

 

[Kinematics]

Current vote differences:

TheEyes: Buys netbooks. Culture Festival. Takes 1 vet from tandem training to do the meet-and-greet.
Elder Haram: Party. No separate meet-and-greet, so keeps vet in tandem training.
Kinematics: Culture Festival (with gossipmonger). Undecided between tandem training and meet-and-greet.

I'll probably add the netbook buy. It's a fair bit of cash, but easily manageable, and we'll be expanding the businesses next turn (hopefully). Can't keep complaining that we don't have anything to buy...

The main question is the value of the meet-and-greet as a separate diplomatic action. I'm not sure how I feel about it when taken away from the general party, as it seems to be a duplicate of the recruit action itself (in a different setting).

 

[Kinematics]

Yes, that's exactly what spell-binding does, and in the beginning that's all we'll be using it for.

The thing is, the way it does this is called function abstraction: you take an input (magical energy) and create an output (also magical energy, just shaped a little differently). In computer science terminology, this is called lambda, and can be used to create a Turing-complete functional programming language. So long as you can also store the power to keep all these nested lambdas going--which is what my Spell Trigger research idea is for--then there's your magical signal processor, in the form of a very low-level magic functional programming language.

Cue several of our girls going to get computer science and applied math degrees. One girl writes a magical assembler; another a magical compiler; another a magical IDE, and boom, Raising Heart, version 0.001 pre-alpha.

Like I said, I'm probably missing a few steps here; @Kinematics what do you think?

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Well, it's one (very small) step on the way there. But it is a step.

It needs to be able to power an action/computation indefinitely. At present it consumes the input power, which means it must halt in a finite time.

It needs to be able to accept any arbitrary input. At present, it's a fixed function.

If you take the imperative path, it needs to be able to respond conditionally and manipulate state.

If you take the functional path, it needs to be able to generate arbitrary spells on the fly.

So yeah, quite a long ways away.

 

[TheEyes]

Well, it's one (very small) step on the way there. But it is a step.

It needs to be able to power an action/computation indefinitely. At present it consumes the input power, which means it must halt in a finite time.

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It consumes the input power by casting a spell, which is, you guessed it, also magic. It is, in other words, a function that accepts magic input, and outputs magic.

It needs to be able to accept any arbitrary input. At present, it's a fixed function.

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Already does this: a spell binding takes magic as input, modifies it, then outputs new magic.

If you take the imperative path, it needs to be able to respond conditionally and manipulate state.

If you take the functional path, it needs to be able to generate arbitrary spells on the fly.

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This is the key, yes. We need to generalize spell bindings to take a spell, that is, shaped magic, as input, and operate on that input in a defined manner. In other words, metamagic spell-bindings.

So yeah, quite a long ways away.

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Oh yeah, quite a long ways away. We're years, and several long-term projects, away from magicLISP, but the existence of Spell Binding tells us that it is probably out there, eventually.

 

[inverted_helix]

This basically shows I have no knowledge at all about the fundamentals of computing. Because much of that may as well be Greek.

 

[Skelm]

[X] Kinematics's Plan

It sounds like it would be much easier to figure out how to make spells that respond to electronic signals from an embedded processor.

 

[FixerUpper]

This basically shows I have no knowledge at all about the fundamentals of computing. Because much of that may as well be Greek.

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I have to admit I am in the same boat as well.

 

[TheEyes]

This basically shows I have no knowledge at all about the fundamentals of computing. Because much of that may as well be Greek.

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I have to admit I am in the same boat as well.

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Eh, I wouldn't worry about it. I'm mostly working off my remembered CS minor from college here, and that was... Jesus, almost 15 years ago? All this stuff about lambda expressions, first-class functions and functional programming is kind of obscure, generally not the sort of thing you deal with unless forced to.

And I just realized that I was being kind of stupid, and forgot that a spell binding that can take a cast spell as input and returns a cast spell isn't the same as a spell binding that can accept another spell binding as input and return another spell binding, which is what you'd need to have to do lambda calculus with spells, and what @Kinematics was really talking about above... ugh, now I'm getting myself confused.

 

[Elder Haman]

Ah, I think I have found the disconnect in our chains of reasoning. You are assuming that the clairvoyance spell would send information to the girl who cast it when the enchantment wears off. I am assuming that you have to be touching the enchanted item to receieve the info from the spell.
@inverted_helix, could you clairfy here?

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Don't see why we wouldn't be able do that. Clairvoyant spells work across distance already. We'd obviously have to do research to figure it out, but can't see why it would be out of bounds.

Alternatively we could have the core spell be a teleport spell, number the charms, and have the charm teleport back into our dispatch center, where a clairvoyant would look at the number and then scry the associated area.

That would be less efficient, but still a plausible method of creating detector systems.

The thing is, the way it does this is called function abstraction: you take an input (magical energy) and create an output (also magical energy, just shaped a little differently). In computer science terminology, this is called lambda, and can be used to create a Turing-complete functional programming language. So long as you can also store the power to keep all these nested lambdas going--which is what my Spell Trigger research idea is for--then there's your magical signal processor, in the form of a very low-level magic functional programming language.

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This basically shows I have no knowledge at all about the fundamentals of computing. Because much of that may as well be Greek.

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So... I'm not a CS major, I got into programming through a series of happy accidents, and I am only familiar with Object Oriented languages.

But I believe what you are referring to is the ability to store a series of 0 and 1 which allow binary expressions?

TheEyes: Buys netbooks. Culture Festival. Takes 1 vet from tandem training to do the meet-and-greet.
Elder Haram: Party. No separate meet-and-greet, so keeps vet in tandem training.
Kinematics: Culture Festival (with gossipmonger). Undecided between tandem training and meet-and-greet.

I'll probably add the netbook buy. It's a fair bit of cash, but easily manageable, and we'll be expanding the businesses next turn (hopefully). Can't keep complaining that we don't have anything to buy...

The main question is the value of the meet-and-greet as a separate diplomatic action. I'm not sure how I feel about it when taken away from the general party, as it seems to be a duplicate of the recruit action itself (in a different setting).

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I'd be willing to switch to Culture festival, difference between that and party isn't that big to me.

I don't want a separate meet and greet because I thought the whole point was to divorce the friendly interaction from the recruit action. I guess I just don't see the point of spending another 1 vet on the situation to add unneeded complexity. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).

I'm leaning against the netbook buy right now. I'd rather see how our recruitment plays out, and then see how expansion of the business goes first.

Yes we have a lot of cash, but right now we are pretty close to zero in our net income. So I'd rather make sure we have an expanded source of income before committing to new upkeep costs.

 

[Skelm]

So... I'm not a CS major, I got into programming through a series of happy accidents, and I am only familiar with Object Oriented languages.

But I believe what you are referring to is the ability to store a series of 0 and 1 which allow binary expressions?

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No, he's talking about Lambda Calculus, which is a Turing Complete system based entirely on creating and applying functions without any persistent state. If we could make stored spells that could be given other stored spells as input, automatically feed stored spells into other stored spells and create new stored spells as output, we could create a magic computer. That said, it would still be much easier to hook up a bunch of stored spells to a processor. Electricity magic isn't common, but we'd only need a very small amount.

 

[Powerofmind]

*looks at all the complicated computing posts*

This is all well and good, but in order to cast the spell, it literally has to be in the hands of a meguca, as a core element of spell-binding is the re-infusion of intent in the spell to make it go off.

 

[racnor]

No, he's talking about Lambda Calculus, which is a Turing Complete system based entirely on creating and applying functions without any persistent state. If we could make stored spells that could be given other stored spells as input, automatically feed stored spells into other stored spells and create new stored spells as output, we could create a magic computer. That said, it would still be much easier to hook up a bunch of stored spells to a processor. Electricity magic isn't common, but we'd only need a very small amount.

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I certainly agree that using electricity for the logic would be much better than using magic, but the method used to cross the magic-electricity gap is going to have to be something that all meguca can use, because you can only recharge enchantments with magic you yourself could cast.

 

[Elder Haman]

I certainly agree that using electricity for the logic would be much better than using magic, but the method used to cross the magic-electricity gap is going to have to be something that all meguca can use, because you can only recharge enchantments with magic you yourself could cast.

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Uhh... wasn't the whole point of the of the starting research being able to split the magic input from the spell typing?

Basically allowing a specialist girl to set the matrix of the spell, and then for it to be charged by any girl?

 

[Powerofmind]

Uhh... wasn't the whole point of the of the starting research being able to split the magic input from the spell typing?

Basically allowing a specialist girl to set the matrix of the spell, and then for it to be charged by any girl?

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The big focus of it seemed to be that it took the intent out of the spell, which made it easier for the enchantment shell to hold it(thus giving it shelf life).

 

[Skelm]

I certainly agree that using electricity for the logic would be much better than using magic, but the method used to cross the magic-electricity gap is going to have to be something that all meguca can use, because you can only recharge enchantments with magic you yourself could cast.

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On consideration, I'm not sure this would take much less magic research, the main advantage would be to let us skip having to hand-construct a magic CPU.

Uhh... wasn't the whole point of the of the starting research being able to split the magic input from the spell typing?

Basically allowing a specialist girl to set the matrix of the spell, and then for it to be charged by any girl?

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I think it only works for one-shot spells, something that automatically powers a bound spell in response to certain conditions would itself have to be an enchantment that the user would have to recharge on the fly to power the device.

 

[Kinematics]

I don't want a separate meet and greet because I thought the whole point was to divorce the friendly interaction from the recruit action. I guess I just don't see the point of spending another 1 vet on the situation to add unneeded complexity. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).

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A reasonable point. Keep the culture festival open for them to visit (and let them know via the gossipmonger), but I'll refrain from adopting the explicit meet-and-greet.

Bumped the signing bonus up to $750, so that the total of that plus the equipment buys was an even $1000 per girl.

Yes we have a lot of cash, but right now we are pretty close to zero in our net income. So I'd rather make sure we have an expanded source of income before committing to new upkeep costs.

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Yeah, am now leaning towards making next month be the one where we deal with all the different money stuff. Delivery service; expanded couriers; purchases and upkeep; etc.


Since I haven't added the netbook buys, if Haman changes the party to the culture festival, his and mine will basically be the same, barring some minor wording differences.

 

[TheEyes]

I don't want a separate meet and greet because I thought the whole point was to divorce the friendly interaction from the recruit action. I guess I just don't see the point of spending another 1 vet on the situation to add unneeded complexity. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).

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A reasonable point. Keep the culture festival open for them to visit (and let them know via the gossipmonger), but I'll refrain from adopting the explicit meet-and-greet.

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The thing is, I'm not sure you really can completely divorce friendly interaction from the recruit action. Teenage girls are not idiots: if we invite ten of them to a big street festival just before/in the middle of a big recruiting drive, do you really think they're just going to accept that the invitation was all in fun, and had nothing to do with recruitment? Of course not; they'll know what's going on, and trying to be coy about it will only make them suspicious of us.

Also, let's not forget that these outsider girls are likely under a large amount of strain, compared to our girls. Being a meguca, especially a solo hunter without proper training, equipment, a dispatch service or backup isn't an easy life. Inviting them to a cultural festival to hang out when these girls are likely struggling to find enough food and grief cubes to get them through the month isn't going to make them friendlier to us; it's going to make them resentful. A "dinner party" is at least explicit about the fact that we're basically giving them free food, without being so discourteous as to say we're doing it so they can have what for some of them will be the first meal they didn't have to steal in days.

Not to mention there's still the aspect that inviting these outsiders to the festival is going to taint the festival for those who need the stress relief and normalcy the most, with... p͎̞̹̣̯̦ͅol̫͎̠i̜͍̜͎͈̦ṭ̩͚̹͉̦i͈͚̻̘̬͖c̝̪̣̪̟̰̟sͅ. No; in my opinion the morale day should be kept pure, free from p͎̞̹̣̯̦ͅol̫͎̠i̜͍̜͎͈̦ṭ̩͚̹͉̦i͈͚̻̘̬͖c̝̪̣̪̟̰̟sͅ and other unsavory things; the dinner party should definitely be a separate action, something that admittedly is meant more to be a bonus to the diplomacy roll but could also have morale effects too, as it fosters the Serena thinking of the smaller groups around them is a more maternal way, rather than competitors for scarce resources.

I'm leaning against the netbook buy right now. I'd rather see how our recruitment plays out, and then see how expansion of the business goes first.

Yes we have a lot of cash, but right now we are pretty close to zero in our net income. So I'd rather make sure we have an expanded source of income before committing to new upkeep costs.

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As @Kinematics and I mentioned, we have a lot of ways to grow out income, most of which we're going to be pushing next month. Between the courier expansion to Seto's territory, the courier franchising to Coalition territory, food delivery, maybe getting off our duffs about getting Nagisa animal trainer certs and having her become a pet whisperer/psychologist, we have a lot of ways to get money, and even if a catastrophe prevents us from working on those we'll "only" be left with a +$3,360 per month net income, so I'm pretty sure we'll be fine.

The girls have been asking about the netbooks ever since we bought one for Hainako's translation job, and right now we're flush with cash (as well as a little ambivalent about where the cash came from); it's time we delivered, and subtly mocked Nagoya for giving us so much cash for something that we gathered with zero risk to ourselves.

Uhh... wasn't the whole point of the of the starting research being able to split the magic input from the spell typing?

Basically allowing a specialist girl to set the matrix of the spell, and then for it to be charged by any girl?

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Yup, this exactly.

Frankly I'm getting way ahead of myself, proposing anything like a magical PROM; I just sort of wanted to get people dreaming about the possibilities, where I see these little magical devices going ten, twenty, fifty research projects down the road.

On consideration, I'm not sure this would take much less magic research, the main advantage would be to let us skip having to hand-construct a magic CPU.

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It would, although it would require us finding and relying on a lightning elementalist with extraordinarily fine-grained control, and we don't have any elementalists yet. Frankly, I think it would take a hell of an omake for @inverted_helix to give us one, too, given the benefits you describe; one is far more likely to show up in the future as the leader of an opposition group, just like we may or may not be dealing with Oriko and her BS percog powers leading the coalition to the south.

 

[Skelm]

Not to mention there's still the aspect that inviting these outsiders to the festival is going to taint the festival for those who need the stress relief and normalcy the most, with... p͎̞̹̣̯̦ͅol̫͎̠i̜͍̜͎͈̦ṭ̩͚̹͉̦i͈͚̻̘̬͖c̝̪̣̪̟̰̟sͅ. No; in my opinion the morale day should be kept pure, free from p͎̞̹̣̯̦ͅol̫͎̠i̜͍̜͎͈̦ṭ̩͚̹͉̦i͈͚̻̘̬͖c̝̪̣̪̟̰̟sͅ and other unsavory things; the dinner party should definitely be a separate action, something that admittedly is meant more to be a bonus to the diplomacy roll but could also have morale effects too, as it fosters the Serena thinking of the smaller groups around them is a more maternal way, rather than competitors for scarce resources.

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I think you're overestimating the effect of inviting new people to the morale day. The Tokyo girls were just as much outsiders last month despite technically being a part of our organisation, I really don't think a few new people they don't have to interact with is going to taint the party.

 

[Kinematics]

The thing is, I'm not sure you really can completely divorce friendly interaction from the recruit action. Teenage girls are not idiots: if we invite ten of them to a big street festival just before/in the middle of a big recruiting drive, do you really think they're just going to accept that the invitation was all in fun, and had nothing to do with recruitment? Of course not; they'll know what's going on, and trying to be coy about it will only make them suspicious of us.

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You could say that about the party, but it's a very weak stance when used on the festival. The festival does not require any contact at all, and any contact that does occur will be between small groups.

In addition, we only just made contact with area 17 last month, so there's no history against that. We've known area 10 longer, but even then, it's only a few months. Areas 3 and 4 have been about half a year, but I'm mainly including them because it would be kind of nice to get out of the rural mountains every once in a while, and a big city festival would be a nice trip.

Also, let's not forget that these outsider girls are likely under a large amount of strain, compared to our girls.

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Debatable. Area 10 was mostly doing OK (high DS, but dropping) when we last talked. No particular stress noted with the girls in 17. The girl in 4 was friendly, but doing fine on her own.

Inviting them to a cultural festival to hang out when these girls are likely struggling to find enough food and grief cubes to get them through the month isn't going to make them friendlier to us; it's going to make them resentful.

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That's a rather cynical perspective. Hanging out at the festival for just one day out of the month is more about what vacations are literally supposed to be for — relax, unwind, and forget about the stress of your day job. It might be a little tense at first, but as long as nobody makes a fuss, I think your predictions are a bit overblown.

Remember that in the festival setting, they are not required to spend their entire time with our group. They can freely wander and enjoy it solo or with their own friends.

Not to mention there's still the aspect that inviting these outsiders to the festival is going to taint the festival for those who need the stress relief and normalcy the most, with... politics.

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No, it won't. A festival is a place where you don't have to deal with other people if you don't want to. It's neutral ground, so to speak. The meet-and-greet is far more politically charged than the festival.

as it fosters the Serena thinking of the smaller groups around them is a more maternal way, rather than competitors for scarce resources.

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This really doesn't make any sense. How is having the other groups attend the festival somehow translated into competing for scarce resources? How is a meet-and-greet somehow supposed to translate into fostering a maternal view of them?

The girls have been asking about the netbooks ever since we bought one for Hainako's translation job, and right now we're flush with cash (as well as a little ambivalent about where the cash came from); it's time we delivered, and subtly mocked Nagoya for giving us so much cash for something that we gathered with zero risk to ourselves.

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Don't forget that, while we've reworked how it gets applied, the increased stipend only got added 3 months ago, so it's not like it's been ages since any money was spent on everyone based on income improvements.

I do agree that we probably want to get the netbooks purchased, but there are actually a couple caveats that come to mind on that.

1) If we do manage to recruit areas 10 and 17 this turn, we'll have to buy systems for them as well, which won't be covered by the standard equipment purchase, which means we'll have to apply a correction next month anyway.

2) Do we actually want netbooks? Because tablets might actually be a more convenient option for most. My roommate got a netbook a few years back, and then later an iPad. Since he got the iPad, the netbook hasn't been touched. I'm not even sure I could find it anymore, if asked. I, personally, only ever deal with a desktop computer. And a couple other friends only ever deal with laptops.

Basically, rather than just throw money at netbooks because "everyone gets a netbook", we might want to instead consider something like: a few desktops for people who do serious computer stuff (Hainako, dispatch, researchers); a bunch of tablets for the majority who are only going to be using them for fairly trivial stuff, and a few netbooks for those who might want something in between.

 

[notanautomaton]

So, it's been 2.5 years, we've had four casualties, and our meguca don't age normally. Have the parents of the girls that have them noticed that their children haven't grown or changed in the last year and a half, or what? Especially the one that's nine, as nine to 11 is really noticeable.

 

[Powerofmind]

So, it's been 2.5 years, we've had four casualties, and our meguca don't age normally. Have the parents of the girls that have them noticed that their children haven't grown or changed in the last year and a half, or what? Especially the one that's nine, as nine to 11 is really noticeable.

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Vets are capable of casting low-cost, long-term illusions to let them mimic aging.