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Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

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TenfoldShields said:
simple shelters/stone tools/kin groups -> modern megalopoli/high technology/complex hierarchy

Stasis!

modern megalopoli/high technology/complex hierarchy -> drag mankind back to prehistory and genocide them on the regular to forestall population growth and social development for literally ever

Dynamism!

i mean i guess it makes sense if you ignore how words work

It really is mostly just Werewolves bitching about how the humans aren't playing fair. 'Cause they've never really gotten over how Garou teeth 'n claws were pretty cutting edge back when portable clay pots were the hot new thing but now the humans went and got shit like "hospitals" and "security forces" or in the Union's case "Peltripper 9000's aka high end HITmarks". And that's making it really hard to do the whole "bring human society crashing down" thing.

Like ten to one if a werewolf goes "weaver bullshit" it's because they just took a tungsten rod through the lung or something.
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To be honest I've always liked the take that the Wolfs basically just fucked everything up. They killed the other changling breeds, genocided humanity a lot and probably somehow made the Wyrm crazy too. It's basically all their fault.

Edit: Bonus question, how would you say Weaver tech/cybernetics differs from that used by the main stream technocracy?
 
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FBH said:
To be honest I've always liked the take that the Wolfs basically just fucked everything up. They killed the other changling breeds, genocided humanity a lot and probably somehow made the Wyrm crazy too. It's basically all their fault.

Edit: Bonus question, how would you say Weaver tech/cybernetics differs from that used by the main stream technocracy?
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I'm very tempted to say "it's worse", but that's probably a boring answer. :V

(okay weavertech should probably not be straight up worse, but it should be more hmmm, ethereal(?) in nature as I see it)
 
ManusDomine said:
I'm very tempted to say "it's worse", but that's probably a boring answer. :V

(okay weavertech should probably not be straight up worse, but it should be more hmmm, ethereal(?) in nature as I see it)
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See, I'd probably do it the other way.

Weaver tech is generally less advanced than technocratic tech because it's effectively static magic, it's granted by a spirit, rather than a mage's arete. However it's easier to make and it doesn't suffer from paradox because it's blessed by an incarna that's closely involved with earth.

So Weavertech cyborgs are worse than current gen hitmarks, but they don't suffer from permanent dox (medical complications etc.)

The NWO would be the group that works most closely with the Weaver, though some groups in the syndicate would too. In general, the NWO would believe that this is a consciousness that the growing complexity of modern informational systems gave birth too, a naturally occuring AI created by the complexity of interconnectivity. They don't trust it anything like as much as ItX does the Computer though, because they're pretty sure it's also working with at least factions in the Virtual Adepts if it serves its goals (they're totally right on this.)
 
Meanwhile, I see Weaver-aligned spirits as being one of the things that the Void Engineers wind up fighting the most. They're the spirits most likely to be found lurking around Technocratic installations and trying to influence the people within, after all. From the perspective of a werewolf, the Technocracy would likely seem to be genocidal opponents of everything that isn't ordinary humanity.
 
Godwinson said:
Meanwhile, I see Weaver-aligned spirits as being one of the things that the Void Engineers wind up fighting the most. They're the spirits most likely to be found lurking around Technocratic installations and trying to influence the people within, after all. From the perspective of a werewolf, the Technocracy would likely seem to be genocidal opponents of everything that isn't ordinary humanity.
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That's liable to have bad side effects. As above, so below - Weaver Spirits are a manifestation of order, definition, the pinning down of data and fact. But it goes both ways. Order, definition, and the pinning down of data and fact are manifestations of Weaver Spirits.

Kill them and your ordered world comes apart in various ways.
 
FBH said:
Edit: Bonus question, how would you say Weaver tech/cybernetics differs from that used by the main stream technocracy?
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The obvious bit is that it doesn't need anyone to create, maintain, or even use it.
The tech itself can manage all of that on it's own just fine, and attempts to use it can lead to the tech using you instead.
 
Most mainstream Technocrats don't make their technology by putting spiders in people, that seems like a noticeable difference.

Aside from a couple very very disturbing Progenitors.
 
 
ChineseDrone said:
Out of curiosity, does anyone have other interesting ideas about what they'd like to see as oMage Shard Worlds like that of The Grand Inquisitor? I'm thinking about putting together like a GURPS Infinite Worlds thing at some point
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Worlds where several Traditions have won. Caveat being that Linear Sorcery existing, they cannot be horrible in the "everyone needs an Awakened to do something" sense.

vicky_molokh said:
It's been a long, long while since I read up on that, but wasn't one of the important points that Weaver is advancement towards stagnation and strings and rigidity? Like how yes, IT is a quickly-advancing field, but it also advances towards a world where once a tweet is said and heard, it can never be removed and where the government gains more and more control and oversight over citizens, or how while universal education makes people smarter on average yet also makes people more similar to each other and gradually stamps out dialects?
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Not on Mage but I squared that circle by saying the Triat is unknowable and making the Wyld and the Weaver have Celestines like the Eater of Soul/Beast of War/Defiler.

That enables the Weaver to have both the God Machine which needs technology to make sure everything will be stable forever and thus considers advancement as a necessery evil and the Mother of Pattern Spiders who is more focused on the natural world instictive cycles.

Which means that in my interpretation of Werewolf, the Red Talons are worshipping the Weaver, just through an avatar who is losing traction with the rest of the hierarchy.
 
I mean, if we're talking early Technocracy or even back to the Order of Reason, they often worked alongsides Christian mages, like the Cabal of Pure Thought, it's just that the Chæur Celeste who would become the Celestial Chorus weren't batshit insane like the Cabal were.

(daily reminder that members of the Order of Reason could have adorable spider pets in the form of Pattern Spiders who followed them around)
 
So um.. is there any consensus ( heh, a pun) in this thread about the Technocracy?

I mean FBH, in his opinion, has made it very clear that they are evil and need to fall or die and are collapsing or always a failure that never accomplished anything other then colonialism which makes no sense as per Mj12 and the Mage20th shows its not. I mean he never stops going about colonialism and technocracy which is what his beef is.

Also, why is there always a focus on the Technocracy falling. Why not the traditions? Infact, traditions and technocracy having issues, tons of issues from within. Thats compelling imo.
 
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Because the Technocratic Union is at the top of the world, and it falling apart is a compelling storyhook for Technocrat player characters as well as the Traditions, because it means that:
  • The Union is no longer out murdering Nephandi left and right; have fun.
  • The Union is no longer out oppressing your Cabal; have fun.
  • The Union is full of internal conflicts that can be played on; have fun.
  • Your Technocrat PCs can actively work on avoiding this fate; have fun.
The Traditions have had their moment of "a house divided must unite" and it was called the Sorcerer's Crusade in which they were busy bickering and arguing, which led to the rise of the Order of Reason and the Technocratic Union; but the Traditions aren't like that anymore, like of course they disagree and sometimes it leads to violence, but ultimately, the modern Traditions are a fellowship, forged by HITMark persecution, plasma fire and centuries of oppression.

The Union being in danger is a conflict, and it harms both Union players and Traditions players to take it away; and I say all this as a vocal Technocrat player.
 
ManusDomine said:
Because the Technocratic Union is at the top of the world, and it falling apart is a compelling storyhook for Technocrat player characters as well as the Traditions, because it means that:
  • The Union is no longer out murdering Nephandi left and right; have fun.
  • The Union is no longer out oppressing your Cabal; have fun.
  • The Union is full of internal conflicts that can be played on; have fun.
  • Your Technocrat PCs can actively work on avoiding this fate; have fun.
The Traditions have had their moment of "a house divided must unite" and it was called the Sorcerer's Crusade in which they were busy bickering and arguing, which led to the rise of the Order of Reason and the Technocratic Union; but the Traditions aren't like that anymore, like of course they disagree and sometimes it leads to violence, but ultimately, the modern Traditions are a fellowship, forged by HITMark persecution, plasma fire and centuries of oppression.

The Union being in danger is a conflict, and it harms both Union players and Traditions players to take it away; and I say all this as a vocal Technocrat player.
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I can agree but and this has been raised up before that the Traditions are joined together cause of the Technocracy. So what if there is no technocracy or no technocracy focus on them. Will internal issues crop up? Will fights for power cause lets face it, in such a setting any group will definitely try and crush all dissenting opinion if it could cause then its would have uber alles to have their perfect world.

I say what I say cause from FBH its pretty clear that he doesn't really listen to people and already has a pov of technocracy utterly evil and needing to die or whatever.
 
Space Penguin said:
Also, why is there always a focus on the Technocracy falling. Why not the traditions? Infact, traditions and technocracy having issues, tons of issues from within. Thats compelling imo.
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Consider their narrative niches. Compare them to the Galactic Empire and the Rebel Alliance.
(Incidentally, I'm also seeing a parallel between how Technocracy, Galactic Empire and Sabbat have been made playable.)
 
Space Penguin said:
I can agree but and this has been raised up before that the Traditions are joined together cause of the Technocracy. So what if there is no technocracy or no technocracy focus on them. Will internal issues crop up? Will fights for power cause lets face it, in such a setting any group will definitely try and crush all dissenting opinion if it could cause then its would have uber alles to have their perfect world.

I say what I say cause from FBH its pretty clear that he doesn't really listen to people and already has a pov of technocracy utterly evil and needing to die or whatever.
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Without the Technocracy the Traditions will fight but I think that all things being equal none of them can become this global superpower the Technocracy is. Also while conflicts exist, the main one being between the Akashics and the Euthanatoi, I don't recall a Tradition with the secret agenda of "let's kill everybody who doesn't think like us" like the Technocracy has been trying to do.

Even for crotchety Hermetics the other Traditions are practicing low inefficient magic, not comitting crimes against reality.
 
Space Penguin said:
I can agree but and this has been raised up before that the Traditions are joined together cause of the Technocracy. So what if there is no technocracy or no technocracy focus on them. Will internal issues crop up? Will fights for power cause lets face it, in such a setting any group will definitely try and crush all dissenting opinion if it could cause then its would have uber alles to have their perfect world.

I say what I say cause from FBH its pretty clear that he doesn't really listen to people and already has a pov of technocracy utterly evil and needing to die or whatever.
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If the Traditions fall, nothing changes. Oh, they have had lots of successes, social, political, even in Paradigm (they've slowed the paradox backlash of Environmental damage by introducing Green Technology, they made computers, for years they managed to maintain The Placebo Effect, etc), but they aren't the hegemon. As @vicky_molokh said, they're the Rebel Alliance, and the rebel Alliance only matters in terms of how it interferes with the Empire. The Empire on the other hand matters all the time.
 
TheLastOne said:
they've slowed the paradox backlash of Environmental damage by introducing Green Technology
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Progenitors: "S-stupid Traditions, i-it's not like we're grateful or anything! W-we were totally working on that already! Reality Deviants!" :oops:

Iteration X: "PROGENITORS EXHIBITING REALITY DEVIANT SYMPATHIES!" :o:mad:

Void Engineers: "Yeah don't do that, that's uhm, that's bad. Yeah..." :whistle:

Syndicate: "I bet a movie about this would earn sick cash."

New World Order: "Please all get back to work, this is very uncomfortable."
 
vicky_molokh said:
Consider their narrative niches. Compare them to the Galactic Empire and the Rebel Alliance.
(Incidentally, I'm also seeing a parallel between how Technocracy, Galactic Empire and Sabbat have been made playable.)
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I'm personally tired of that niche.

ganonso said:
Without the Technocracy the Traditions will fight but I think that all things being equal none of them can become this global superpower the Technocracy is. Also while conflicts exist, the main one being between the Akashics and the Euthanatoi, I don't recall a Tradition with the secret agenda of "let's kill everybody who doesn't think like us" like the Technocracy has been trying to do.
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I think thats cause of the Technocracy being around. Them not being around is the great question about what happens next. Though it could be as you said, not much happens. Who knows.

TheLastOne said:
If the Traditions fall, nothing changes. Oh, they have had lots of successes, social, political, even in Paradigm (they've slowed the paradox backlash of Environmental damage by introducing Green Technology, they made computers, for years they managed to maintain The Placebo Effect, etc), but they aren't the hegemon. As @vicky_molokh said, they're the Rebel Alliance, and the rebel Alliance only matters in terms of how it interferes with the Empire. The Empire on the other hand matters all the time.
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I don't see why nothing changing is a bad thing. Of course, its bad for campaigns but we are talking about the setting here not a rpg game for players
 
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vicky_molokh said:
Then perhaps you should look into a setting built around a different framework? Just like if you're tired of the Rebellion being the David and the Empire the Goliath, then maybe you should look into eras other than the Rebellion Era in SW.
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No, my issue seems to be that a lot of the time plenty of people just rag on and on about these debates and while fun they can also be tepid cause what you say is not absolute despite you trying to make it so. The writers themselves allow people to play Technocracy and do interesting things with it just as with the traditions but then we get these debates which just seek to kill nuance and have the traditions be always in the right and Technocracy bad.

I don't know about you but a setting where belief and will is reality turning it into DnD of THIS GUY GOOD, THIS GUY BAD is just to me wrong.

Hell, Mj12 even made a great point that even the Nephandhi, some anyway, should have a point in what they say.
 
Space Penguin said:
No, my issue seems to be that a lot of the time plenty of people just rag on and on about these debates and while fun they can also be tepid cause what you say is not absolute despite you trying to make it so. The writers themselves allow people to play Technocracy and do interesting things with it just as with the traditions but then we get these debates which just seek to kill nuance and have the traditions be always in the right and Technocracy bad.
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Umm, did you miss the part where I pointed out that Technocracy, the Sabbat and the Galactic Empire were all made playable later, which changed their portrayal? So yes, they do now, but it's done despite the archetypes/niches/etc. in the framework of which the organizations were built.
(For SW, that's the appearance of various EU works, such as but not limited to the ever-popular admiral. For MtA, it's the shift to the 2e/3eRev portrayal. For Sabbat it's GttS.)
 
It should be noted that @MJ12 Commando has a series of very specific views on Mage: The Ascension, views that I happen to agree with, but views that I know there are several other people in this very thread who do not agree with (we just had a long argument about it, in fact :V).
 
vicky_molokh said:
Umm, did you miss the part where I pointed out that Technocracy, the Sabbat and the Galactic Empire were all made playable later, which changed their portrayal? So yes, they do now, but it's done despite the archetypes/niches/etc. in the framework of which the organizations were built.
(For SW, that's the appearance of various EU works, such as but not limited to the ever-popular admiral. For MtA, it's the shift to the 2e/3eRev portrayal. For Sabbat it's GttS.)
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I did not ignore your point. It just does not matter. And again so what? To me those are tired niches and even detrimental to OMage.

You guys would have OMage be nothing but Trads being smug right about everything with everyone else being evil

Just look at this:
MJ12 from Panopticon quest said:
They're inherently right though. They're the good guys of Mage. The only people who realize that the world is so broken, where the human spirit is inherently corrupt and nihilistic, that the world must end. Humanity wants the world to end. The Sleepers are the ones who invented old age, so they could die and rot and decay. The Sleepers are the ones who invented disease, and when the Technocracy offered them cures, decided that they preferred nothing and so created antibiotic-resistant bacteria and AIDS and other things out of whole cloth. So they could sicken and die. The Sleepers are the ones who want to die in agony, so when the Technocracy offered universal healthcare so nobody would become sick, they created bureaucratic inefficiency and corruption in it so people could die in waiting rooms with flies festering on their open sores. The Sleepers are the ones who, when the Technocracy offered them empathetic, community policing from Robert Peel, subverted it so they could have their Rodney Kings and their Fergusons and their massacres.

The Technocracy are fools who fight a losing war to deny the existence of entropy. The Traditions are fools who are blinded by their own hubris and don't take a look at what the Sleepers really want. If the Sleepers wanted it, they could make all this evil impossible. But they don't. In fact, they talk it up. This is what mankind is. Mankind wants rape. They want murder. They want homophobia, and genocide, and bigotry. Mankind revels in it. We understand what humanity means. We are more human than you. But we also understand goodness-and we understand that the only goodness in a world where its creators want nothing but more evil is annihilation.

Ascension? Ha. Cast them all into the pit. They're not worthy. You already know this. This is why you judge them, staying separate from them in your ivory towers, only finding the ones you deem "worthy." Look into your soul and embrace it.

If you want to be a hero-remember all the fantasy novels you read? About the evil race which exists only for evil and must be entirely cast into the pit?

That is mankind.
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So Mankind as a Chaotic evil race of gods needing to be put down and this has a twisted sense of "correctness" to it. For OMage.
 
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