Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

Mages can therefore cut the effect off in the field, but for a hedge mage a teleportation ban must be done through ritual.

That's fair. Hedge Mages should be doing rituals, and preparing things, and otherwise dealing with such disadvantages. They aren't mages, and don't have dynamic enlightenment. Likewise, sorcery for an Exalted is a slow and ponderous thing, powerful, but as a support tool. Exalted rarely directly fight with sorcery.
 
MJ12 Homebrew: Linear Sorcerers (Spellcasters)
For the people making games in @hls's ExWoD stuff who just hard-bounced off of having to remember yet another unique set of rules for Linear Sorcery (or ended up using my hack anyways), let me repost a somewhat modified version of my Linear-Sorcery-As-Rotes homebrew. I've made some changes here for simplicity and clarity, so use the quoted version below (I have it as a quote linking to the old version as reference).

It makes linear sorcerers (and by extension Exalts with that merit) somewhat more powerful, but less flexible. For Exalts you may need to watch out for the people who buy combat-related (or anything-related) difficulty reducers for 2 XP a dot as a note. I specifically didn't cut these out of the stable of effects a sorcerer can access so you can have your NWO white-suited men wearing shades using dual pistols and gun kata or your Akashic consors fighting like Donnie Yen ("There's ten Germans with rifles, one with a machine gun, and all I have are three knives and one guy who barely knows how to shoot a rifle. Sounds like the Germans are in trouble.") I'd just suggest that Exalts get to either benefit from their own Excellencies or the linear sorcery difficulty reduction on any given roll, choose one.

Some ExWoD-specific commentary is in brackets.

Linear Sorcerers
Linear Sorcerers bridge the gap between the Awakened and Sleepers, capable of learning some level of magical ability. Unlike a true mage, a linear sorcerer cannot improvise magic-they are limited to a generally relatively small set of 'spells.' In fact, many linear sorcerers know only a bare handful of spells-a doctor trained by the Progenitors might know the Life 3 Heal Others rote, but nothing else, while a consor trained by the Akashic Brotherhood may learn how to target their blows with Entropy 1, and sense incoming attacks via Forces 1. Linear Sorcerers, unlike Awakened mages, buy spells rather than spheres-singular rotes which they learn to master.

Prerequisites
Linear Sorcery is difficult at the best of times and only exceptional Sleepers can reliably learn linear sorcery. To learn Linear Sorcery, a character must have either at least 4 dots in two relevant Abilities governing their sorcerous tools, or a supernatural trait (e.g. Enhancement) which justifies their use of linear sorcery. The relevant Abilities do not have to be 'classically' associated with the occult-an Akashic consor can learn linear sorcerery due to their mastery of Do and Athletics, a NWO Watcher might base their sorcery on Academics and Investigation, while a Shock Corps door-kicker will probably base their sorcery on their Firearms and Alertness.

[Since an Exalt already has a relevant supernatural trait by virtue of being Exalted, they should get to waive any other requirements. On the other hand, a ST might want to enforce these restrictions because the prerequisites define what a sorcerer's 'paradigm' is for lack of a better word, and not everyone's paradigm is or should be "I have a glowy bit of sun-god stuck on my soul, reality must obey me."]

Tools
The tools used by a linear sorcerer define them in the same way mages are defined by their paradigm. Linear sorcerers, unlike mages, never transcend their paradigm. All linear sorcerers choose a focus to use to cast a spell with which they must use whenever they seek to cast that spell. A tool can be used for multiple spells (such as Hermetic linear sorcerers and their wands), but each spell must use a tool. Some linear sorcerers may use tools that are internal to themselves such as 'psychic powers,' 'implanted cybernetics,' 'genetic engineering,' or 'martial arts styles' to channel their spells-these tools are harder to master, but make it much more difficult to prevent a sorcerer from accessing their magic.

New merit:
Our Tools Shape Us (1 or 3 pt Merit): The linear sorcerer uses spellcasting tools which are difficult to remove, such as psychic powers, knowledge of martial arts, implanted cybernetics, genetic augmentations, or their own voice. At the 1-point level, the linear sorcerer uses something like singing or martial arts katas to cast spells. They cannot have their spellcasting tools removed without surgery, but the tools can be temporarily denied to them (e.g. by gagging someone who casts via singing or binding someone who must cast via martial arts kata). At the three-point level, the linear sorcerer always has access to their spellcasting tools, and the only way to deny the linear sorcerer their spellcasting tools is by invasive surgery (e.g. lobotomizing a psychic or ripping the augmentations out of a cyborg).​

Spells and Casting
Linear sorcerers learn spells, rather than paths or spheres. Spells are glorified rotes and are constructed identically to rotes.

A spell is cast using the Mage: the Ascension rules for casting magic effects, with the exception that the number of dots in the Spell replaces the character's Arete for all casting purposes. If using a rules variant where characters cast via (Arete + Sphere), replace this with either (Spell + Spell), (Spell + Attribute), or (Spell + Ability) as you wish [in Exalted vs WoD you'll probably want to use Spell + Spell, to minimize the amount of shenanigans that can be done via Exalted excellencies]. Spells can be enhanced with Mana use, at the rate of -1 difficulty/point of Mana spent. If the character botches a spell, bad things generally happen. Either inflict an appropriate dramatic penalty that is related to the intent of the spell being cast or look up the Paradox generated by the botched spell and subject the sorcerer to a backlash of intensity sufficient to completely burn off the paradox generated by the botched effect.

Unlike a true willworker, linear sorcerers may not freely make extended magic rolls in combat time. If a linear sorcerer wishes to cast instantly, they may only make a single roll on the spell and let the dice fall where they may. If a linear sorcerer wishes to make an extended roll, they must engage in a ritual, taking a minimum of ten minutes per roll (and often significantly longer). This ritual takes an appropriate form to whatever tools the sorcerer works with. The maximum number of successes that a linear sorcerer can accumulate on any single spell is equivalent to (Willpower). There is no additional cost for a sorcerer to enact a ritual-learning a spell allows the sorcerer to cast it as either a ritual or an instant effect.

Vulgar effects are more difficult for linear sorcerers. If casting a vulgar spell, a sorcerer must pay 1 Willpower to cast at all, plus 1 additional Willpower or Mana (in any combination) per point of paradox the casting would normally incur.

Higher-ranked effects cost Mana to even attempt. Any effect using 4-dot spheres costs 1 additional Mana to cast per 4-dot sphere. If the spell requires more than 1 sphere rated at 3 dots or more, add an additional 1 Mana to the cost. Linear sorcerers may learn spells which require 5 dots in a Sphere, but may not cast them independently. Instead, they may only use these spells to assist a willworker casting the same effect, using the normal rules for multiple mages collaborating on a single effect. For these reasons, linear sorcerers generally prefer to learn lower-level spells that have day to day usability. Linear sorcerers who learn Adept-level or Master-level effects generally only use them in concert with true willworkers-such as the drive technicians working on Voidship engines or the alchemists who provide the Euthanatos' Omega Protocol with draughts and infusions to achieve superhuman combat prowess.

Countermagic & Unweaving
Linear sorcerers do not have access to either countermagic or unweaving by default-but can learn it. Linear sorcerers must buy countermagic on a per-Sphere basis-if a linear sorcerer wishes to counter Correspondence effects, they must buy Countermagic (Correspondence). The sorcerer must only possess the ability to Countermagic one of the spheres which went into an effect. For a linear sorcerer, 'narrow' countermagic-countermagic that only works against someone with a similar paradigm (e.g. a psychic who can counter other psychics, but can't shut down a plasma cannon or a flaming magic sword) is costed as if it was a 1-dot effect. Broad countermagic, which works on all effects using that sphere no matter the paradigm, is costed as a 2-dot effect.

Linear sorcerers cannot unweave effects without the following merit:
Magefray (3 pt Merit): The linear sorcerer may Unweave effects like an awakened mage. The linear sorcerer may unweave any effect as long as she possesses a Countermagic spell for every sphere which the effect incorporates, using the highest dice pool out of all applicable Countermagic spells instead of Arete to unweave the effect.​

Spell Cost
The first dot of a spell costs XP equal to the sum total of all the dots in every sphere used in the spell, plus 1 (e.g. a Forces 3, Prime 2 effect would cost 6 XP base). A Linear Mage pays (current rating x [highest required sphere]) to purchase a new dot in a spell.

Linear mages may not purchase more than 5 dots in any spell and may not purchase spells which require 6-dot spheres or above.

Buying spells at character generation costs 1 freebie point per 3 XP or fraction thereof for the first dot and 3 freebie points per additional dot.
 
Last edited:
You know, there was a really good set of Hedge Magician rules I ran into... well, I don't think it was on B.J. Zanzibar's site, but I think I found a link to it off of it's webring and...

Wow, I never going to find it.


Anyways, made me think of some of the old stuff. If anyone want's to see what kind of (largely awful) stuff got written up back in the day, this here is one of the old WoD fanhubs. Or rather the backup of the backup of such a hub, kept up as an archive.

B.J. Zanzibar's World of Darkness
 
Last edited:
So, Mage 20th has released its next supplement, Gods and Monsters onto DriveThruRPG for public purchase.
M20 Gods & Monsters - Onyx Path Publishing | Mage 20th Anniversary | DriveThruRPG.com

It looks like it covers a quite a range of things from Sleepers, spirts, other night-folk, to Constructs and Familiars.

Familiars can be really cool sometimes, and how you can bundle backgrounds together means you can build some interesting things. I once bundled Familiar, Mentor, and Manifest Avatar together - The characters avatar actively guided and taught the character. But not in some kind of nice or friendly way. It manifested as a mirror imagine of the character, the character at the point in their life of their greatest regret, when they made their biggest mistake.

Basically a walking reminder of what they could never forgive themselves for. Needless to say, they didn't like or respect that image, and the Avatar was suppose to motivate and guide them in a needling and cruel way. Like, to the extent that it's in character for that PC to take potshots when the familiar shows up.

Though the game died young, so... yeah, didn't get to do everything I had intended with it.

You can do a lot with background in Mage, and they can take unconventional forms.
 
Has anyone ported mage to FATE? The more narrative mechanics seem like they'd be a good fit.

As an aside, given the current trend towards more narrativistic mechanics in RPGs, I would love to see what Mage would look like if it was made today
 
As an aside, given the current trend towards more narrativistic mechanics in RPGs, I would love to see what Mage would look like if it was made today

Sorcerously Advanced might be a place to start there.

In its current form(Colin is pondering a fount rework), Magic styles are taxonomized by fount(Elementalism, Necromancy, Earthpower, Alchemy, Glory, Oneiromancy, and Arete), and the path you use to manifest potential fount effects. It's Diceless, has a narrative consequence/advantage system, and you get metacurrency bonuses for playing magically weaker characters.
 
Last edited:
MJ12 Homebrew: Mage Damage & Soak
Direct damage from magical attacks is extremely weird. Most of the time it's not all that optimal, but the game treats it as some sort of mega-powerful thing that you get huge benefits out of. Higher sphere level attacks are basically never worthwhile, so you never see anyone use, say, Prime 5's ability to directly eat someone's pattern for Quintessence. And although they're normally completely useless in combat, they're ridiculously overpowered out of it, so getting rituals to bzort people from half the globe away is ludicrously powerful.

This is me sketching out something that might help reduce the issue a little bit.

Magical Damage Rework:
Normally, damaging magical effects do 2 health levels of damage per success, with Forces magic dealing 1 additional health level of damage per success. Here, magical damage deals a certain fixed amount of damage depending on the number of successes on the effect and the sphere used to inflict damage. For most effects, this reduces the amount of damage that can be dealt with extended casting, but significantly increases the amount of damage dealt with 1 or 2-success effects.

The table below lists the amount of damage a magical direct attack inflicts, based upon the successes rolled on the effect itself. This damage can be further boosted by spending more successes on the effect's damage. No more than 5 additional successes can be used to increase damage.

Countermagic adds directly to a character's soak against all magical attacks on a 1-1 basis. Because this increases the damage of higher sphere levels and creates a bit of 'eggshells-with-sledgehammers' problem in mage fights, especially when using Adept-level or Master-level effects, a ST using these rules may allow mages to reflexively use countermagic to soak attacks directly targeting them, adding their Arete to soak against magical direct damage effects if they have an appropriate Sphere. A Mage with Prime 3 or above can add their Arete to their soak against any direct magical attack, no matter what Sphere it uses.

"d" means that the damage is in dice, "hl" means the damage is in health levels.

Sphere Rating Damage (1-2 successes) Damage (3-4 Successes) Damage (5+ Successes) Additional Damage per Success Spent
1 +1d +2d +3d or +(Arete)d +1d/2 successes
2 (2 + Arete)d (4 + Arete)d (6 + Arete)d +1d
3 (6 + Arete)d (8 + Arete)d (10 + [Arete * 2])d +1d
4 (4 + Arete)hl (6 + Arete)hl (8 + Arete)hl +1hl
5 (6 + Arete)hl (8 + Arete)hl (10 + Arete)hl +2hl
Special Effects:
Spheres have special effects when used as a damage source, as listed below:
  • Correspondence: Correspondence does not deal damage until Correspondence 4, and requires a relevant conjunctional sphere at 2 dots (generally Life 2 or Matter 2). Correspondence damage is always calculated as if the sphere level was 2 lower than normal, but is always Aggravated and can only be soaked by the target's countermagic.
  • Entropy: Entropy is the only Sphere which uses the 1-dot level row of damage. Entropy 1 "Target Weakpoint" effects can add the damage of the appropriate column to a non-magical attack. This damage is of the same type as the non-magical attack.
  • Forces: Forces attack spells never use the "1-2 successes" column for damage. If a Forces spell rolls 1 or 2 successes, use the 3-4 successes column to calculate its damage. Forces spells can be Aggravated at 4+ without any conjunctional spheres. Forces 3, 4, and 5 add 1/2/3 free successes respectively to the area of an attack spell.
  • Life: Life attacks ignore mundane armor (but may always be soaked by Stamina), deal an additional 2hl of damage against cyborgs, and can be made aggravated. Life attacks deal no damage to inanimate objects.
  • Matter: Matter attacks halve non-magical soak if more than 3 successes are rolled on the effect.
  • Mind: Mind attacks deal damage as if the sphere was 1 level lower (unless attacking with Mind 2), but may only be soaked using Willpower. If a mage uses Mind 2 to attack, the Mage does not reduce the effective level of the sphere, but instead the damage is illusory-treat the damage as Bashing, except it cannot go past the target's lowest non-Incapacitated health level and instantly vanishes at the end of the scene. Mind cannot deal damage to inanimate objects or creatures which lack minds.
  • Prime: Prime attacks generate 1 Quintessence per 3 health levels of post-soak damage inflicted, and are always Aggravated. Prime attacks can never hit multiple targets.
  • Spirit: Spirit does not deal direct damage against non-spirit targets-it may however summon spirits to attack the target, using appropriate traits. Dimensional Science deals damage to non-spirit targets as if the sphere was 1 level lower, but may ignore non-magical defenses and deal Aggravated damage.
  • Time: Time cannot deal direct damage.
Yes, this means that a Forces 5 direct damage spell, cast normally, will do a minimum of 13hl damage, and that damage is probably Aggravated. A Forces 5 mage is a walking nuclear weapon, what did you expect? And if you're throwing around vulgar, high-sphere offensive magic you probably deserve the benefits of the Paradox cost.

Defensive Rework:
When used to add to soak or provide additional defenses, spheres provide protection as follows:

Sphere Rating Soak (1-2 successes) Soak (3-4 Successes) Soak (5+ Successes) Additional Soak per Success Spent
1 None None None None
2 1d (Arete/2)d (Arete)d +1d
3 (Arete)d (2 + Arete)d (4 + Arete)d +1d
4 (Arete)hl (1 + Arete)hl (2 + Arete)hl +2d
5 (1 + Arete)hl (2 + Arete)hl (3 + Arete)hl +1hl
Round fractions up. Spheres adding to Dodge or granting health levels add +1d to all Dodge rolls or +2hl to the character per success. Soak granted from magic is generally much weaker than offense, because you only generally cast a single soak spell and expect it to last for an entire fight (and also supplement it with other sources), whereas you kind of don't do that with offensive spells.

Special Effects:
Spheres have special effects when used to provide protection, as listed below:
  • Correspondence: Correspondence does not provide soak. Instead, Correspondence bans are all-or-nothing defenses against incoming attacks. A Correspondence ban prevents 1 non-magical attack per turn (plus 1 additional attack for every 2 successes spent on spell effect) from affecting the character, as long as the ban covers the attack and the attacker rolls fewer successes than the spell's effect.
  • Entropy: Entropy 'soak' may not reduce an attack to less than 1 health level of damage and cannot stack with any other source of soak, but cannot be bypassed by non-magical means and protects against all non-magical sources of damage (and protects from all attacks, including magical ones, at Entropy 5). When a character has soak from an Entropy spell and soak from another source, roll both sources of soak and choose the result you prefer.
  • Forces: Forces has no special effects when granting soak.
  • Life: Life 2+ is required to grant soak to plants and simple living creatures, while Life 3+ is required to provide soak to complex living creatures. Life protects against physical and direct pattern (Prime, Entropy, Life) attack.
  • Matter: Soak provided by Matter effects does not require active maintenance as long as the spell's duration lasts. However, Matter spells create actual physical armor that can be affected by armor-piercing attacks, effects which ignore or reduce armor, and effects that destroy armor. Large soak bonuses from Matter either require Matter 5 or are extremely obvious, even if Coincidental (massive suits of powered armor, heavy metal plates added onto a vehicle).
  • Mind: Mind only grants soak against psychic attacks against the mind.
  • Prime: Prime only grants soak against supernatural attacks, including magic.
  • Spirit: Spirit only grants soak against spirits.
  • Time: Time does not grant soak. However, a Time 4+ Stop Time effect can act as the equivalent of a Correspondence 'ban,' save that it works on all attacks (including magical attacks) that a mage can dodge.
 
Last edited:
Direct damage from magical attacks is extremely weird. Most of the time it's not all that optimal, but the game treats it as some sort of mega-powerful thing that you get huge benefits out of. Higher sphere level attacks are basically never worthwhile, so you never see anyone use, say, Prime 5's ability to directly eat someone's pattern for Quintessence. And although they're normally completely useless in combat, they're ridiculously overpowered out of it, so getting rituals to bzort people from half the globe away is ludicrously powerful.

This is me sketching out something that might help reduce the issue a little bit.

Magical Damage Rework:
Normally, damaging magical effects do 2 health levels of damage per success, with Forces magic dealing 1 additional health level of damage per success. Here, magical damage deals a certain fixed amount of damage depending on the number of successes on the effect and the sphere used to inflict damage. For most effects, this reduces the amount of damage that can be dealt with extended casting, but significantly increases the amount of damage dealt with 1 or 2-success effects.

The table below lists the amount of damage a magical direct attack inflicts, based upon the successes rolled on the effect itself. This damage can be further boosted by spending more successes on the effect's damage. No more than 5 additional successes can be used to increase damage.

Countermagic adds directly to a character's soak against all magical attacks on a 1-1 basis. Because this increases the damage of higher sphere levels and creates a bit of 'eggshells-with-sledgehammers' problem in mage fights, especially when using Adept-level or Master-level effects, a ST using these rules may allow mages to reflexively use countermagic to soak attacks directly targeting them, adding their Arete to soak against magical direct damage effects if they have an appropriate Sphere. A Mage with Prime 3 or above can add their Arete to their soak against any direct magical attack, no matter what Sphere it uses.

"d" means that the damage is in dice, "hl" means the damage is in health levels.

Sphere Rating Damage (1-2 successes) Damage (3-4 Successes) Damage (5+ Successes) Additional Damage per Success Spent
1 +1d +2d +3d or +(Arete)d +1d/2 successes
2 (2 + Arete)d (4 + Arete)d (6 + Arete)d +1d
3 (6 + Arete)d (8 + Arete)d (10 + [Arete * 2])d +1d
4 (4 + Arete)hl (6 + Arete)hl (8 + Arete)hl +1hl
5 (6 + Arete)hl (8 + Arete)hl (10 + Arete)hl +2hl
Special Effects:
Spheres have special effects when used as a damage source, as listed below:
  • Correspondence: Correspondence does not deal damage until Correspondence 4, and requires a relevant conjunctional sphere at 2 dots (generally Life 2 or Matter 2). Correspondence damage is always calculated as if the sphere level was 2 lower than normal, but is always Aggravated and can only be soaked by the target's countermagic.
  • Entropy: Entropy is the only Sphere which uses the 1-dot level row of damage. Entropy 1 "Target Weakpoint" effects can add the damage of the appropriate column to a non-magical attack. This damage is of the same type as the non-magical attack.
  • Forces: Forces attack spells never use the "1-2 successes" column for damage. If a Forces spell rolls 1 or 2 successes, use the 3-4 successes column to calculate its damage. Forces spells can be Aggravated at 4+ without any conjunctional spheres. Forces 3, 4, and 5 add 1/2/3 free successes respectively to the area of an attack spell.
  • Life: Life attacks ignore mundane armor (but may always be soaked by Stamina), deal an additional 2hl of damage against cyborgs, and can be made aggravated. Life attacks deal no damage to inanimate objects.
  • Matter: Matter attacks halve non-magical soak if more than 3 successes are rolled on the effect.
  • Mind: Mind attacks deal damage as if the sphere was 1 level lower (unless attacking with Mind 2), but may only be soaked using Willpower. If a mage uses Mind 2 to attack, the Mage does not reduce the effective level of the sphere, but instead the damage is illusory-treat the damage as Bashing, except it cannot go past the target's lowest non-Incapacitated health level and instantly vanishes at the end of the scene. Mind cannot deal damage to inanimate objects or creatures which lack minds.
  • Prime: Prime attacks generate 1 Quintessence per 3 health levels of post-soak damage inflicted, and are always Aggravated. Prime attacks can never hit multiple targets.
  • Spirit: Spirit does not deal direct damage against non-spirit targets-it may however summon spirits to attack the target, using appropriate traits. Dimensional Science deals damage to non-spirit targets as if the sphere was 1 level lower, but may ignore non-magical defenses and deal Aggravated damage.
  • Time: Time cannot deal direct damage.
Yes, this means that a Forces 5 direct damage spell, cast normally, will do a minimum of 13hl damage, and that damage is probably Aggravated. A Forces 5 mage is a walking nuclear weapon, what did you expect? And if you're throwing around vulgar, high-sphere offensive magic you probably deserve the benefits of the Paradox cost.

Defensive Rework:
When used to add to soak or provide additional defenses, spheres provide protection as follows:

Sphere Rating Soak (1-2 successes) Soak (3-4 Successes) Soak (5+ Successes) Additional Soak per Success Spent
1 None None None None
2 1d (Arete/2)d (Arete)d +1d
3 (Arete)d (2 + Arete)d (4 + Arete)d +1d
4 (Arete)hl (1 + Arete)hl (2 + Arete)hl +2d
5 (1 + Arete)hl (2 + Arete)hl (3 + Arete)hl +1hl
Round fractions up. Spheres adding to Dodge or granting health levels add +1d to all Dodge rolls or +2hl to the character per success. Soak granted from magic is generally much weaker than offense, because you only generally cast a single soak spell and expect it to last for an entire fight (and also supplement it with other sources), whereas you kind of don't do that with offensive spells.

Special Effects:
Spheres have special effects when used to provide protection, as listed below:
  • Correspondence: Correspondence does not provide soak. Instead, Correspondence bans are all-or-nothing defenses against incoming attacks. A Correspondence ban prevents 1 non-magical attack per turn (plus 1 additional attack for every 2 successes spent on spell effect) from affecting the character, as long as the ban covers the attack and the attacker rolls fewer successes than the spell's effect.
  • Entropy: Entropy 'soak' may not reduce an attack to less than 1 health level of damage and cannot stack with any other source of soak, but cannot be bypassed by non-magical means and protects against all non-magical sources of damage (and protects from all attacks, including magical ones, at Entropy 5). When a character has soak from an Entropy spell and soak from another source, roll both sources of soak and choose the result you prefer.
  • Forces: Forces has no special effects when granting soak.
  • Life: Life 2+ is required to grant soak to plants and simple living creatures, while Life 3+ is required to provide soak to complex living creatures. Life protects against physical and direct pattern (Prime, Entropy, Life) attack.
  • Matter: Soak provided by Matter effects does not require active maintenance as long as the spell's duration lasts. However, Matter spells create actual physical armor that can be affected by armor-piercing attacks, effects which ignore or reduce armor, and effects that destroy armor. Large soak bonuses from Matter either require Matter 5 or are extremely obvious, even if Coincidental (massive suits of powered armor, heavy metal plates added onto a vehicle).
  • Mind: Mind only grants soak against psychic attacks against the mind.
  • Prime: Prime only grants soak against supernatural attacks, including magic.
  • Spirit: Spirit only grants soak against spirits.
  • Time: Time does not grant soak. However, a Time 4+ Stop Time effect can act as the equivalent of a Correspondence 'ban,' save that it works on all attacks (including magical attacks) that a mage can dodge.

Hmm, I generally like this. Honestly, even the old Mage books knew their damage was broken, and many rotes had their own damage progression, making how much damage something did sort of random.

On the more specific side - I'm not sure why Correspondence requires another sphere to attack. Cutting someone in half with a portal is a classic, or 'cutting space', or the like. Also, I liked the old 'teleport part of the sun on top of someone, open a gate to the sun' effect.

I sort of think Mind should be 2 lower rather then 1. It lends itself to invisible attacks, and tends to require either itself, prime, or pure counter-magic to defend against. Also most people have low Willpower. Like, Players don't, but generally Willpower 5 is suppose to be rare.

The prime effect is both really powerful, and the limitation is really serious. Like, a Celestial Chorus member should be able to set a Nephandi Congregation on holy fire as a single attack, and getting Quintessence out of it is just... big. This and time are the only one I flat out disagree with. I'm not sure what to put in it's place, I would have to think on it, but I'm not fond of this.

Time should have it's only damage effects. Borrowing injures from the future or the past, ripping part of someones body out of the flow of time, cutting someone with a blade of temporally frozen air, and the like. Maybe something like Time can only be used to attack starting at 3, can only be defended against with counter-magic, and counts as one rank lower.
 
Last edited:
Hmm, I generally like this. Honestly, even the old Mage books knew their damage was broken, and many rotes had their own damage progression, making how much damage something did sort of random.

On the more specific side - I'm not sure why Correspondence requires another sphere to attack. Cutting someone in half with a portal is a classic, or 'cutting space', or the like. Also, I liked the old 'teleport part of the sun on top of someone, open a gate to the sun' effect.

I sort of think Mind should be 2 lower rather then 1. It lends itself to invisible attacks, and tends to require either itself, prime, or pure counter-magic to defend against. Also most people have low Willpower. Like, Players don't, but generally Willpower 5 is suppose to be rare.

The prime effect is both really powerful, and the limitation is really serious. Like, a Celestial Chorus member should be able to set a black congregation on holy fire as a single attack, and getting Quintessence out of it is just... big. This and time are the only one I flat out disagree with. I'm not sure what to put in it's place, I would have to think on it, but I'm not fond of this.

Time should have it's only damage effects. Borrowing injures from the future or the past, ripping part of someones body out of the flow of time, cutting someone with a blade of temporally frozen air, and the like. Maybe something like Time can only be used to attack starting at 3, can only be defended against with counter-magic, and counts as one rank lower.

Set a what on what?
 
Hmm, I generally like this. Honestly, even the old Mage books knew their damage was broken, and many rotes had their own damage progression, making how much damage something did sort of random.

On the more specific side - I'm not sure why Correspondence requires another sphere to attack. Cutting someone in half with a portal is a classic, or 'cutting space', or the like. Also, I liked the old 'teleport part of the sun on top of someone, open a gate to the sun' effect.

I sort of think Mind should be 2 lower rather then 1. It lends itself to invisible attacks, and tends to require either itself, prime, or pure counter-magic to defend against. Also most people have low Willpower. Like, Players don't, but generally Willpower 5 is suppose to be rare.

The prime effect is both really powerful, and the limitation is really serious. Like, a Celestial Chorus member should be able to set a Nephandi Congregation on holy fire as a single attack, and getting Quintessence out of it is just... big. This and time are the only one I flat out disagree with. I'm not sure what to put in it's place, I would have to think on it, but I'm not fond of this.

Time should have it's only damage effects. Borrowing injures from the future or the past, ripping part of someones body out of the flow of time, cutting someone with a blade of temporally frozen air, and the like. Maybe something like Time can only be used to attack starting at 3, can only be defended against with counter-magic, and counts as one rank lower.

Correspondence requires another sphere to attack because Correspondence 4 just lets you move people around. Throwing someone into the sun is damaging, but it's also the result of the sun, not your magic, so it's limited by the environmental effect. Mind is always soakable via Willpower even if you're doing Lethal, and anyone who you're actually concerned about is probably running a Willpower higher than 3. Any mage, even a kind of crappy one, is probably WP 5+. If your Chorister wants to set an entire cult on fire simultaneously, take Forces. That's exactly what it's for. Tearing someone apart on a fundamental level to fuel your own magic is generally not a thing a heroic character is going to be doing very often, and the things you want to do it against are probably things that you don't want to divide your attention on.
 
Correspondence requires another sphere to attack because Correspondence 4 just lets you move people around. Throwing someone into the sun is damaging, but it's also the result of the sun, not your magic, so it's limited by the environmental effect. Mind is always soakable via Willpower even if you're doing Lethal, and anyone who you're actually concerned about is probably running a Willpower higher than 3. Any mage, even a kind of crappy one, is probably WP 5+. If your Chorister wants to set an entire cult on fire simultaneously, take Forces. That's exactly what it's for. Tearing someone apart on a fundamental level to fuel your own magic is generally not a thing a heroic character is going to be doing very often, and the things you want to do it against are probably things that you don't want to divide your attention on.

And I sort of disagree with those point? Correspondence totally lets you do things like this -



That's a straight correspondence effect. For that matter, so is something like Devil May Cry's Virgil cutting space with his sword.

Not going to get into an argument on Mind. It feels a little strong to me, but that's subjective.

The standard raise your cross and drive back a hoard a Vampires is totally a pure Prime attack. And it's the same rote you would use against demons, ghosts, and all kinds of other 'impure' beings, it's not a forces attack. Like, you could do it with true faith, but it's also an example of a pure prime attack. Tearing 'evil' things apart with the pure power of creation is a classic kind of 'holy' attack. Not something you should be getting Quintessence back on. Like, stealing quintessence is an effect, burning away someones reality is an effect, you totally could combine those effects, but you should be spending successes on both at that point since they're different effects.
 
Actually, I think that the computer game could probably work with....um...choosing "beliefs" as a way to create a paradigm. Like perks in Fallout or something.

For example, perk "believes in ancient pagan ways" gives you a way to interact with, like, sacred groves or other focuses, and access to magic of creating and altering (l/L)ife via prayer and blood ritual, and penalty to your magic in tech-heavy or atheistic constructs/places.
You need at least N (idk, 3?4?5?) beliefs, and they cannot contradict each other.

Chargen would then be a combination of picking beliefs and spheres; game would have to account for every possible combination of belief + sphere, which is something of combinatorial explosion, but probably can be managed.
Worst-case, you can make game extremely moddable and let people go wild with home-brewed rotes.

It is very ambitious, but should be doable? I think?
Not nearly as fluid and flexible as RPG with human GM, but that's inevitable.
 
Actually, I think that the computer game could probably work with....um...choosing "beliefs" as a way to create a paradigm. Like perks in Fallout or something.

For example, perk "believes in ancient pagan ways" gives you a way to interact with, like, sacred groves or other focuses, and access to magic of creating and altering (l/L)ife via prayer and blood ritual, and penalty to your magic in tech-heavy or atheistic constructs/places.
You need at least N (idk, 3?4?5?) beliefs, and they cannot contradict each other.

Chargen would then be a combination of picking beliefs and spheres; game would have to account for every possible combination of belief + sphere, which is something of combinatorial explosion, but probably can be managed.
Worst-case, you can make game extremely moddable and let people go wild with home-brewed rotes.

It is very ambitious, but should be doable? I think?
Not nearly as fluid and flexible as RPG with human GM, but that's inevitable.

I think, in order to help people, there'd also be offers of basically "Classes"? Like, combinations of beliefs that are 'most typical' of one group or another, and that also synergize at least decently well at all levels, so that someone unsure can just go straight for the pre-built.
 
I can't help but wonder if a possible problem with a hypothetical Mage the Ascension game is that if you aren't Verbena or Hermetics it isn't very mage-y, like, when people imagine mages they think Harry Potter or Dresden Files. Magic that has to be hidden and for some factions doesn't even to be actually magic might somewhat off-putting and might defy audience expectations in a bad way.

I would still love such a thing, and would happily choose a Technocracy playthrough but those expectations could be a stumbling block.
 
I think, in order to help people, there'd also be offers of basically "Classes"? Like, combinations of beliefs that are 'most typical' of one group or another, and that also synergize at least decently well at all levels, so that someone unsure can just go straight for the pre-built.


Yeah, like classes in Oblivion were, or like classes in Shadowrun cRPGs. Those are classless games, but they offer classes for new players who cannot yet manually allocate points.

As another example, Fallout chargen in, say, New Vegas, offers their questionnaire which chooses allocation of points for you too.

Mmm...any object in the world could have tags like "life", "matter" and such which would denote whether it belongs to such and such sphere.

I can't help but wonder if a possible problem with a hypothetical Mage the Ascension game is that if you aren't Verbena or Hermetics it isn't very mage-y, like, when people imagine mages they think Harry Potter or Dresden Files. Magic that has to be hidden and for some factions doesn't even to be actually magic might somewhat off-putting and might defy audience expectations in a bad way.

I would still love such a thing, and would happily choose a Technocracy playthrough but those expectations could be a stumbling block.

Idk, Akashiks are very much magical too in their own way.
Chorists are kinda weird in that, like....they are only a subset of possible belief systems centered around worship? But they probably would come off as magical enough too.

Technocracy would be weirder sell, of course, but tbh that's the core premise of setting anyway, so ehhh. Is Actually A Terminator is magical enough in a way. Its not like people were turned off technological path in like Arcanum.
 
I mean, honestly I'd just do a class based rpg. Like you can choose Verbena or Akadhic or whatever and each one effectively functions as a dnd class. Like its tied into the faction mechanics and maybe there are some prestige classes to represent different takes on an ethos ( I'm a Hermetic technomancer! I get these class skill!).

Trying to make the magic freeform like in the rpg would just be too hard on a computer system
 
Trying to make the magic freeform like in the rpg would just be too hard on a computer system
Setting aside whether it was a good idea, Morrowind and Oblivion both had custom spell creation in them. You can get pretty modular if you absolutely wanted to, though as was originally stated it still wouldn't be as freeform as the TRPG.
 
I think, in order to help people, there'd also be offers of basically "Classes"? Like, combinations of beliefs that are 'most typical' of one group or another, and that also synergize at least decently well at all levels, so that someone unsure can just go straight for the pre-built.
This is already a thing;
Order of Hermes:
House Bonisagus
House Flambeau
House Fortunae
House Quaesitori
House Shaea
House Solificati
House Tytalus
House Verditius
House Ex Miscellanea

Verbena:
Gardeners of the Tree
Lifeweavers
Moon-Seekers
Twisters of Fate

Sons of Ether:
Adventurers
Cybernauts
Ethernauts
Mad Scientists
Progressivists
Utopians
 
Expanding on my earlier post now that I have a computer.

Fundamentally, I believe that Paradigms should be more than a matter of AESTHETICS, that your paradigm should dictate what you do just as much as it dictates how you do it. A hermetic who wants to go to space will build a spelljammer, whereas a technocrat will build a rocket ship and these are different things. It isn't just a matter of taste, their is a fundamental difference between the two. Asking a Hermetic to make a technocratic spaceship is like asking an Aerospace engineer to make their rocket look like a 14th-century galleon. It might be possible but it will never be as good as one that follows sound aerodynamic principles.

Why does that mean I don't want an elderscrolls/fallout style classless system? Because, in my experience, those systems wouldn't accurately reflect the fact that different traditions have different abilities. An akashic character should play differently from a verbena one, and if you go with a classless system this won't hold true
 
And that's precisely why in the Bloodlines thread when this came up, it's pretty obvious that the main character needs to be locked to being an Orphan. If you join a Tradition, you need to do it over the course of the game by choosing to do so. Otherwise you can't do the kind of character specific plotlines that you need to for that proper CRPG experience. Else you just end up with a bland shell because you can't write around the character that exists without combinatorial explosion.
 
And that's precisely why in the Bloodlines thread when this came up, it's pretty obvious that the main character needs to be locked to being an Orphan. If you join a Tradition, you need to do it over the course of the game by choosing to do so. Otherwise you can't do the kind of character specific plotlines that you need to for that proper CRPG experience. Else you just end up with a bland shell because you can't write around the character that exists without combinatorial explosion.

Yeah, combinatorial explosion of rotes is one thing, huge but kinda tractable, but that of plots does not seem manageable.
 
Back
Top