Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

On the subject of beliefs, this make me once again think that the Celestial Chorus are fucking stupid, because their magical not-actually-any-religion-monotheism makes them nigh-impossible to buy into as a story; their Sorcerer's Crusade equivalent, the Chæur Celeste were much more to my preference.

It's quite notable the memorable "Choristers" in PQ were very much not "Generic monotheists" - they were vampire-fighting hardass Russian Orthodox priests, or they were Father Orsino, a Liberation Theology Catholic priest who was a guerilla when he was younger.
 
I don't think that's very accurate @FBH. I for one don't believe that censorship is something governments should do, neither do I believe in black-ops assassinations or men in black making people the Government does not like disappear in the night.

The Technocracy is however the closest faction to the views of most people on this board, both politically and aesthetically. They represent, in general, liberal materialism transhumanism etc. That's a very comforting aesthetic for people on a science fiction web board, which tends to skew politically liberal. You have to wave at the fact that the technocracy is you know, a fucking vanguard party, but people that's not exactly too difficult to wave at.

Also, no offense, but a lot of this board's perception of Mage is based on @MJ12 Commando's Panopticon Quest, and he just loooovvveeess the aesthetic of secret spy organizations.

I never said they were pure good guys or good guys did I?. I don't know about you but Mages running guerilla campaigns against the Technocracy or anyone else they don't like or killing people cause they are bad people in this life and thus through death becomes better people in next life completely ignoring sanctity of life or law would also be described as evil to plenty of people.

I don't know how it is in your mage game, but in mine, when I've played a traditionalist the Technocracy is trying to kill me. What do you expect the traditions to do in the face of a group who is willing to send cyborgs to assassinate them? Civil disobedience?

On the subject of beliefs, this make me once again think that the Celestial Chorus are fucking stupid, because their magical not-actually-any-religion-monotheism makes them nigh-impossible to buy into as a story; their Sorcerer's Crusade equivalent, the Chæur Celeste were much more to my preference.

Eh. I don't think it's particularly unlikely, even if it's a bit weird. The belief that all beliefs in god are actually the product of one thing is long standing, and it's not particularly difficult to see all the religious mages working together, despite their differences, against the greater threat of HITMARKS IN THE ROOM RIGHT NOW!
 
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I don't know how it is in your mage game, but in mine, when I've played a traditionalist the Technocracy is trying to kill me. What do you expect the traditions to do in the face of a group who is willing to send cyborgs to assassinate them? Civil disobedience?
I'm positing situations here. I mean the Traditions could be causing explosions to kill a factory or office or laboratory belonging to the Technocracy which kills people who were just sleeper employees and did not know about what was going on or the Technocracy doing the same thing against the Traditions but with innocent caught in the crossfire.

And you did not talk about the killing people cause they are bad thing.

Eh. I don't think it's particularly unlikely, even if it's a bit weird. The belief that all beliefs in god are actually the product of one thing is long standing, and it's not particularly difficult to see all the religious mages working together, despite their differences, against the greater threat of HITMARKS IN THE ROOM RIGHT NOW!
Issue with this is that it makes the Celestial Chorus not flavorful at all. Like you want actual challenge. How about actual hardcore Christian Celestial Chorus with all that that entails? From what I have read of Earth Scorpion read of Mage the Ascension 20th edition which is not much, no time, they are bland as fuck.
 
I'm positing situations here. I mean the Traditions could be causing explosions to kill a factory or office or laboratory belonging to the Technocracy which kills people who were just sleeper employees and did not know about what was going on or the Technocracy doing the same thing against the Traditions but with innocent caught in the crossfire.

And you did not talk about the killing people cause they are bad thing.

So are you asking "What if the traditions resorted to terrorism?" Or what? I'm not sure what you're talking about

Issue with this is that it makes the Celestial Chorus not flavorful at all. Like you want actual challenge. How about actual hardcore Christian Celestial Chorus with all that that entails? From what I have read of Earth Scorpion read of Mage the Ascension 20th edition which is not much, no time, they are bland as fuck.

I don't really like some of the things that White Wolf did with the CQ, like I think that the whole religious right should certainly be an aspect of them, but I don't have much problem with the idea of Muslims and gnostics and Christians working together against atheists. That's like, utterly normal when atheists are the ones in power.
 
So are you asking "What if the traditions resorted to terrorism?" Or what? I'm not sure what you're talking about
I'm positing positions that could very well be construed as evil about both sides.

I mean from wikipedia:
Terrorism is a term used in its broadest sense to describe the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror or fear, in order to achieve a political, religious or ideological aim.
Of course, broadest use of the term but its still a way to describe it. And Traditions don't just fight the Technocracy when the Technocracy attacks. They also attack to bring them down cause thats what they aim for.

I don't really like some of the things that White Wolf did with the CQ, like I think that the whole religious right should certainly be an aspect of them, but I don't have much problem with the idea of Muslims and gnostics and Christians working together against atheists. That's like, utterly normal when atheists are the ones in power.
Thats not how they are presented as.

Even so, Choristers still preach that message. More to the point, they live it. Among the Traditions, the Chorus is perhaps the most compassionate… and it certainly speaks loudest, as a whole, for the welfare of the Masses. Although certain members can be fanatical, not even the primitivist Singers are religious fundamentalists in the way Sleepers understand that term. To hear more than the simplest notes of the Song – and then survive within the Council – a Chorister must transcend dogma and embrace faith. With regards to stickier theological nuances (the gender of Divinity, the limits of tolerance, the roles of Christ and the Prophet in the Divine plan, that sort of thing), modern Choristers deliberately avoid taking an official stance. There's plenty of tension in the ranks as a result, but at least no one's getting burned alive over it anymore!
It has no passion. No real belief. Its like lay catholic.
 
I'm positing positions that could very well be construed as evil about both sides.

I mean from wikipedia:
Of course, broadest use of the term but its still a way to describe it. And Traditions don't just fight the Technocracy when the Technocracy attacks. They also attack to bring them down cause thats what they aim for.


Thats not how they are presented as.

It has no passion. No real belief. Its like lay catholic.

No real belief? Really?

Extra, extra! The only Christians who actually believe in Christianity are fundamentalists!
 
I'm positing positions that could very well be construed as evil about both sides.

I mean from wikipedia:
Of course, broadest use of the term but its still a way to describe it. And Traditions don't just fight the Technocracy when the Technocracy attacks. They also attack to bring them down cause thats what they aim for.

Okay, sure. And? I never said the traditions were all good, just I tend to think they're better than the technocracy.

This is White Wolf, everyone is evil and it's up to the PCs to be good if they want to be.

Thats not how they are presented as.

It has no passion. No real belief. Its like lay catholic.

It was written in the 1990s by an RPG company, no shit it's going to be kind of down about passionate organized religious types.
 
Okay, sure. And? I never said the traditions were all good, just I tend to think they're better than the technocracy.
Which is a perfectly ok position to have.

This is White Wolf, everyone is evil and it's up to the PCs to be good if they want to be.
So you pretty much agree with me cause for the most part thats what I have been saying.

It was written in the 1990s by an RPG company, no shit it's going to be kind of down about passionate organized religious types.
This is from M20th
 
Cool, but "both sides are bad" does not mean "one side is not worse than the other."
Which is also fine. My issue is that there seems to be some need to denigrate one side aka Technocracy so it has no nuance, no chance to become better or worse or reasons for its actions or any benefit from its actions. Just technocracy lol failure, lol evil.

Mage 20 is full of questionable fluff decisions.
Celestial Chorus come off as a joke to me.
 
Cause as others have shown the CC guys come off as generic bland we don't want to offend you types. They should be offensive in my thinking. They are a religious force who believe in Gods and magic coming from said gods and religion.

They should stick to the principles of their religion and its beliefs.

Hell, it be fucking hilarious to have different flavors of Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc. all part of the same group and arguing with each other.
 
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Which is also fine. My issue is that there seems to be some need to denigrate one side aka Technocracy so it has no nuance, no chance to become better or worse or reasons for its actions or any benefit from its actions. Just technocracy lol failure, lol evil.



Celestial Chorus come off as a joke to me.

They're no worse than any of the other traditions in terms of being a mishmash of stuff that shouldn't really be mashed together. However there's nothing wrong with that, resistance organizations make strange bedfellows.

If I was writing them from scratch, then I'd make them a profoundly uneasy alliance between 1: The old school miracle workers from the Eastern Orthodox, Catholic and Muslim faiths who dominated and policed mage society before the rise of the order of reason. 2: The order of reason guys who wanted either literalist interpretation of holy books and or thought pure reason would bring them to god (but did the Etherite thing when rest of the technocracy decided that there wasn't god at the end of the tunnel) and 3: The passionate religious people who believe in one god but have a fairly private faith, or follow mystical monethiest traditions.

There are certainly areas of America and the Middle East where elements of the CQ dominate, and they're utterly unpleasant places to go too, but that just provides some griss for morale dilemmas, doesn't it?
 
Everything is just an opinion. But you are the primary instigator of this on this forum, being frank which cause large flame wars.

They're no worse than any of the other traditions in terms of being a mishmash of stuff that shouldn't really be mashed together. However there's nothing wrong with that, resistance organizations make strange bedfellows.
It makes them boring.

If I was writing them from scratch, then I'd make them a profoundly uneasy alliance between 1: The old school miracle workers from the Eastern Orthodox, Catholic and Muslim faiths who dominated and policed mage society before the rise of the order of reason. 2: The order of reason guys who wanted either literalist interpretation of holy books and or thought pure reason would bring them to god (but did the Etherite thing when rest of the technocracy decided that there wasn't god at the end of the tunnel) and 3: The passionate religious people who believe in one god but have a fairly private faith, or follow mystical monethiest traditions.

There are certainly areas of America and the Middle East where elements of the CQ dominate, and they're utterly unpleasant places to go too, but that just provides some griss for morale dilemmas, doesn't it?
This does sound interesting. Some of what I'm talking about. There should also be some conflict between the various religious groups making up the CC guys.

hell if there is one thing we can say is positive for the Technocracy is hopefully the afterlife is closed off and nobody goes there cause it sucks. Wraith the oblivion guys.

Better all are immortal or live in the internet or cyborgs.
 
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The Technocracy is however the closest faction to the views of most people on this board, both politically and aesthetically. They represent, in general, liberal materialism transhumanism etc. That's a very comforting aesthetic for people on a science fiction web board, which tends to skew politically liberal. You have to wave at the fact that the technocracy is you know, a fucking vanguard party, but people that's not exactly too difficult to wave at.
I don't care about any of these things, I am deeply religious, humanistic and... Well I am liberal (actually centrist, but my country's centrist parties suck so I end up voting far-left :V), I think the Technocracy makes for interesting character conflicts and does in fact challenge my beliefs; now obviously most people here do not meet those parameters.

Regardless, I don't think it's important to call attention to the fact that it's a vanguard party, disregarding how I think this sort of labeling is trite; that the Union does shady things is something we can all agree on, I think; that the Union is not the designated good guys, I think we can all agree too.

I don't know how it is in your mage game, but in mine, when I've played a traditionalist the Technocracy is trying to kill me. What do you expect the traditions to do in the face of a group who is willing to send cyborgs to assassinate them? Civil disobedience?
I think this again demonstrates my point about the different stories we buy into, I mostly play Revised where the war is over and the sides are just doing their best to survive and get by, where the Technocratic Construct on the other avenue over there is pretty likely to just leave you alone unless you start doing stupid shit, indeed your Virtual Adept probably plays poker with their Enforcer every other tuesday and they jokingly talk about "converting each other", and the Construct is actually much more interested in getting funding so sometimes you do a few runs for them and in return, they pretend you don't actually run around throwing fireballs and certainly it would be a shame if such reports suffered a computer failure that might prevent them from reaching the Director.

(I mostly run Traditions, it should be mentioned. :V)

Whereas your world is not at all like that, and that's understandable; you don't like Revised, so you prefer one where the war is very much going on and showing your face on the wrong cameras can be a death sentence, and that's cool too, I did that a few times and I loved it; games where you have to watch out or blac-clad cyborgs will come to get you are cool too.

(In fact, I'm going to be running one soon; wish me luck.)
Eh. I don't think it's particularly unlikely, even if it's a bit weird. The belief that all beliefs in god are actually the product of one thing is long standing, and it's not particularly difficult to see all the religious mages working together, despite their differences, against the greater threat of HITMARKS IN THE ROOM RIGHT NOW!
Yes but that's not my issue with them. My issue is that they don't belong to any denomiations, they're just universalist monotheists rather than say, the successors of the Chæur Celeste who work along with Sufi muslims and Krishanists, who sometimes argue with the Gnostics over there in the corner who totally claim they're older than those damn Cathars and they all think the Mithraists are fucking weird and no one really wants to talk with them. And yes, there are some ideas that all roads to the top of the mountain are one, but really are you going to be the one to trust the dude who claims his God sprang from a bull when you're preeetty sure that God created this mortal illusion and your gnosis lets you see through the lies?

Regardless, I think we can have civil discourse and forget the whole discussion on whether the Union is good or evil, yes? We seem very much both to be in agreement that the Union is not nice.
 
Stop: Stop
true.

Makes sense.

I agree. Its just the show had aliens releasing plague to the world, hurling nukes, causing giants, manipulating wars, things like that. Its why the idea of it becoming real doesn't applea to me. But it does totally fit into OMage.

Interesting. Casting magic by telling a story and it or parts of it becoming real? Like for example, posting a story or something and you have like something in the story that is the focus and cause people believe or like it, it comes real?


I totally agree but lets not go there. lets just drop it. Until FBH comes back cause i have read the White Wolf, thread. He comes back, shitstorm and then leaves. Pattern repeat. :whistle:
stop You have displayed a worrying pattern of both sniping at other users and spaghetti posting throughout this thread. As such, you have been given a twenty five point infraction and a one week threadban
 
I don't think that's very accurate @FBH. I for one don't believe that censorship is something governments should do, neither do I believe in black-ops assassinations or men in black making people the Government does not like disappear in the night.

Fundamentally, this comes back to the stories we buy into again, a Traditionalist story is only going to challenge your beliefs as long as you buy into it and for some people, the Union is just easier to buy into; it's a shady shadow government that will grind you up until you're spent because it's like a corporate machine, it'll make you march to it's tone or you'll break from straining the gears of a machine of an organization older than any modern civilization, it exults in the heroism of it's members, but those members will often find themselves questioning whether they really are a hero.

I think we can agree that we do not share many of our opinions on mage, but I don't think you can axiomatically state that a game where the Union are protagonists is one that doesn't challenge the beliefs of the players. Unless you of course happened to literally mean, "one where the Union are literally good guys and don't do wrong", in which case I entirely agree with you; the Union, and to some degree all other magical groups should make you question what you know, because Mage is a game of personal enlightenment, and in a game of personal enlightenment, the truths of the Traditions and the truths of the Technocracy are ultimately wrong, your own path is what you will have to seek.

On the subject of beliefs, this make me once again think that the Celestial Chorus are fucking stupid, because their magical not-actually-any-religion-monotheism makes them nigh-impossible to buy into as a story; their Sorcerer's Crusade equivalent, the Chæur Celeste were much more to my preference.

Good god the Celestial Chorus are boring. Like, you need religious mages as a group, but they're just flavorless almost. Maybe if I serious read their Tradition book I would feel differently. But when I tried I found myself skimming again and again.
 
I'd say White Wolf sucks at religion, but I actually think they did it pretty well with nMage... and by that I mean, they created some interesting Mystery Cults for the Orders that only sometimes had any connection to real-life beliefs.

So I'll amend it to say, "White Wolf often isn't that great at real world religion."
 
On the subject of beliefs, this make me once again think that the Celestial Chorus are fucking stupid, because their magical not-actually-any-religion-monotheism makes them nigh-impossible to buy into as a story; their Sorcerer's Crusade equivalent, the Chæur Celeste were much more to my preference.

Issue with this is that it makes the Celestial Chorus not flavorful at all. Like you want actual challenge. How about actual hardcore Christian Celestial Chorus with all that that entails? From what I have read of Earth Scorpion read of Mage the Ascension 20th edition which is not much, no time, they are bland as fuck.

Thats not how they are presented as.

It has no passion. No real belief. Its like lay catholic.

Celestial Chorus come off as a joke to me.
Good god the Celestial Chorus are boring. Like, you need religious mages as a group, but they're just flavorless almost. Maybe if I serious read their Tradition book I would feel differently. But when I tried I found myself skimming again and again.
Yes but that's not my issue with them. My issue is that they don't belong to any denomiations, they're just universalist monotheists rather than say, the successors of the Chæur Celeste who work along with Sufi muslims and Krishanists, who sometimes argue with the Gnostics over there in the corner who totally claim they're older than those damn Cathars and they all think the Mithraists are fucking weird and no one really wants to talk with them. And yes, there are some ideas that all roads to the top of the mountain are one, but really are you going to be the one to trust the dude who claims his God sprang from a bull when you're preeetty sure that God created this mortal illusion and your gnosis lets you see through the lies?
If only the cannon Celestial Chorus supported the idea of Chorus infighting.
Celestial Chorus Traditionbook 2001 page 62 said:
Dogmatic (2PT. Social Flaw) Your mage believes in the principles of his religion so strongly that he just can't stomach other faiths. Not only is your character inclined to treat believers of other religions in a condescending manner, but he can get downright nasty if his precepts are challenged. You suffer a two-point difficulty penalty on all social interactions with people of different faiths (for instance, if your character is Episcopalian and he's dealing with a Methodist). Your character's condescension or mistrust always seems to come out argumentatively.
Celestial Chorus Traditionbook 2001 page 62 said:
Discordant (1 or 3 PT. Supernatural Flaw) For some reason, your mage doesn't fit into the harmony of the Chorus. This flaw isn't an actual problem with singing — although she probably isn't any good at that, either — but rather, it's a problem in finding a way to become part of the whole. Any time your Singer wishes to perform magic by acting in concert with another mage, you suffer a penalty. For the one-point version of this Flaw, you just suffer a one point difficulty increase on your rolls for acting in concert. For the three-point version of this Flaw, you not only have the difficulty problem with acting in concert, but you must spend a temporary Willpower point to do so!
The Chorus has people who believe that all gods are really some form of one god.
Celestial Chorus Traditionbook 2001 page 45 said:
Monists: The Monist faction emphasizes the heart of the Chorus's message: All faiths, all people, all creations are one. Monists in the Chorus tend to be very tolerant Protestants, Jews, or Catholics — members of other faiths often find themselves too marginalized by orders like the Templars or Septarians to offer much to the Monist agenda. Monists aren't really formally recognized as a faction, but many experienced Choristers express at least some degree of Monist belief — aside from those with a serious bone to pick or a theological hang-up ... most other Tradition mages form their opinions of the Chorus based on the Monist diplomats.
But what about more traditional forms of the Chorus?
Celestial Chorus Traditionbook 2001 page 45 said:
Septarians: Septarians represent the "old guard." These Choristers are highly traditional, and they value a strict code handed down from a very specific branch of Christianity — be it Southern Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist or what have you. Naturally, the Septarians can hardly get along with one another, much less with the rest of the Chorus. Other Choristers rightly consider them arrogant, opinionated, and sometimes even violently reactionary. All of these views tend to prove themselves correct. And, of course, the Septarians can't even agree on canon among themselves. ... The Chorus's Monists also often direct Septarian outrage against the Chorus' foes. The real problems crop up when a Septarian winds up in the same room with a more liberal member of the Chorus and nothing else keeps them from butting heads. Septarians also have great strength among the Sleeper allies of the Chorus. The more dogmatic theologians and theurgists cling to narrow religious and magical views, so they naturally support one or another Septarian belief.
But what about non-christians taking issue with the Judeo-Christian structure of the Chorus?
Celestial Chorus Traditionbook 2001 page 45 said:
Latitudinarians: While the Monists believe that everyone is entitled to a personal vision of the One, the Latitudinarians feel that the Chorus' very structure is overly stifling and prevents just that sort of expression. Latitudinarians often include members of the various non-Westernized religions. Essentially the Latitudinarians believe that the very structure of the Chorus propagates too many old, bad traditions. The Curia, the structure of the Adytums, even the specialized ranking terminology all smack of Christian dogma. How does someone who's not a Christian fit in? Latitudinarians vilify the additional learning curve and the invisible discrimination that this structure engenders. ... The faction splits its time between reasoned debate and willful subversion.
Gnostics arguing with the Chorus?
Celestial Chorus Traditionbook 2001 page 47 said:
Children of Albi: The declining Children of Albi follow in the footsteps of the Albigensians. In brief, the Albigensian heresy followed the gnostic view of the universe: All that is pure is spirit, and so all that is material is base and wicked. ... Albigensians look askance at the Chorus leadership, claiming that anyone too tied to the material world is perforce shackled to the corrupt materia that is the antithesis of divinity. ... While the Albigensians are nominally accepted by the Chorus, they're something of a loose cannon faction.
Hindu traditionalists?
Celestial Chorus Traditionbook 2001 page 48 said:
Hindus: one of the earliest non-Judeo-Christian groups to approach Valoran, the Brahmin priests, all members of the most elite caste of Indian society, represent one of Earth's largest religions and the Chorus's oldest continuing faith tradition. The priests are among the most conservative members of the Tradition, and are often strict advocates of a return to the old ways. ... In contrast, Hindu followers of the Yogis, who reject the caste system and lead lives of austerity, are among the Tradition's most peaceful and open-minded members.
Did someone say Mithras mystery cult?
Celestial Chorus Traditionbook 2001 page 48 said:
Mithraites: Almost forgotten outside of the Chorus, the Sons of Mithras continue to honor the ancient god Mithras, the bringer of light, as a primary embodiment of the One.

edit: Good Luck with the upcoming game @ManusDomine!
 
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I don't care about any of these things, I am deeply religious, humanistic and... Well I am liberal (actually centrist, but my country's centrist parties suck so I end up voting far-left :V), I think the Technocracy makes for interesting character conflicts and does in fact challenge my beliefs; now obviously most people here do not meet those parameters.

That's cool, but I'm like, a materialist socialist athiest, so being with the technos wouldn't challenge my basic beliefs. Moreover, I guess I feel like at best the technocracy is always going to be working with the least bad option. They are the group you go into if you settle that the world as it is is basically as good as it can get, because if they can make a better world, then why haven't they?

I think this is actually part of a broader backlash I'm (very personally) feeling right now about games in which you settle. So, I really want to run a cyberpunk game in which you play a cell of anti-corporate rebels. It's fine, even good, if there's shades of grey, but I've grown increasingly disatified with games in which you try to preserve a flawed, brutal system against those who wish to overthrow it, because "chaos is worse even than a bad order" or whatever.

I don't object to this kind of game as a thing, and I've played and enjoyed playing a whole bunch of technocratic characters of various kinds. I love cyborgs, and drones, and the aesthetic of cyberpunk and conspiracy almost as much as @MJ12 Commando does. However I'm not really willing to accept that the Technocracy are the least worst option, because to do so means fundimentally accepting that all that is possible is reform.

Regardless, I don't think it's important to call attention to the fact that it's a vanguard party, disregarding how I think this sort of labeling is trite; that the Union does shady things is something we can all agree on, I think; that the Union is not the designated good guys, I think we can all agree too.

The fact they're a vanguard party is absolutely vital to call attention too, because it highlights the flaw at the centre of the Technocracy. Here is a group that talks about how they're doing everything for the sake of the masses, but in the manner of all vanguard parties, must constantly mislead, discapline, and even murder those masses to preserve their power and the ability to continue revolutionary activity.

The vanguard nature of the technocracy is absolutely at the heart of their moral contradiction. To not highlight it is like not talking about how the traditions are going to fight to the death the moment the Technocracy gets taken down because fundimentally they despise one another ideologically.

Yes but that's not my issue with them. My issue is that they don't belong to any denomiations, they're just universalist monotheists rather than say, the successors of the Chæur Celeste who work along with Sufi muslims and Krishanists, who sometimes argue with the Gnostics over there in the corner who totally claim they're older than those damn Cathars and they all think the Mithraists are fucking weird and no one really wants to talk with them. And yes, there are some ideas that all roads to the top of the mountain are one, but really are you going to be the one to trust the dude who claims his God sprang from a bull when you're preeetty sure that God created this mortal illusion and your gnosis lets you see through the lies?

Regardless, I think we can have civil discourse and forget the whole discussion on whether the Union is good or evil, yes? We seem very much both to be in agreement that the Union is not nice.

I don't mind defining the CQ a lot more than they are, because all white wolf fluff is honestly a huge mess made of people not knowing much. To be honest I feel one of the biggest issues with Mage Fluff is that white wolf went back and forth as to whether they were going to make them a moral grey area or not, and in the case of the CQ, decided to aggressively hunt down any part of the whole religous thing that they thought the average 1990s gamer wouldn't like. Like that ridiculous thing about how Televangelists are Technocratic plants. No. They're run by the CQ. The prosperity gospel guys are run by the CQ as well. A lot of CQ guys hate this, but you know, you're gonna do a hell of a lot more morally compromising things if you're a resistance than that.
 
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They're no worse than any of the other traditions in terms of being a mishmash of stuff that shouldn't really be mashed together. However there's nothing wrong with that, resistance organizations make strange bedfellows.

If I was writing them from scratch, then I'd make them a profoundly uneasy alliance between 1: The old school miracle workers from the Eastern Orthodox, Catholic and Muslim faiths who dominated and policed mage society before the rise of the order of reason. 2: The order of reason guys who wanted either literalist interpretation of holy books and or thought pure reason would bring them to god (but did the Etherite thing when rest of the technocracy decided that there wasn't god at the end of the tunnel) and 3: The passionate religious people who believe in one god but have a fairly private faith, or follow mystical monethiest traditions.

There are certainly areas of America and the Middle East where elements of the CQ dominate, and they're utterly unpleasant places to go too, but that just provides some griss for morale dilemmas, doesn't it?

For the group 2 people, is there a group like that that isn't deist I've forgotten about?
 
Some random thoughts on a more chaotic Traditions, and the mechanical side of enlightenment
So here's something I've been playing with.

I don't like the Traditions as they exist, I think they're to big, even for big groups. I also think as they exist undermines the Traditions flavor of being about freedom but chaotic vs. the stolid well defined Union.

So rather then having Nine Traditions, the traditions have a council with Twenty One Seats, and the seats are voted for by the Masters.

Why Twenty One? To distance ourselves from the stupidity of attaching seats to Spheres, which was just awkward. I also wanted enough seats that a few smaller collations might hold one or two. And I wanted it to be obviously a bit too big, to unwieldy.

How do you become a master? Politically complex, though if you have both high enough Arete and mastery of at least one sphere it gets much simpler.

Some groups are big enough, organized enough, that they always get a seat. The Akashic Brotherhood, Euthanatos, Sons of Ether, Order of Hermes, and Virtual Adapts all manage this.

The shamanistic collations USUALLY can agree on enough to get one of there own up there, though there is no 'Dreamspeaker' organization.

There is usually a Christian, Muslim, and Hindu mage on the council, though which group is ascent within those deeply Sectarianistically divided groups changes often enough that there's little in the way of political continuity here.

One or two other groups also have enough support to be permanent members on the counctil, but the other seats rotate and shift on populist whims.

There are a few mages who command enough personal respect to hold seats on their own long term. One of the students, or students of the students, of Sh'zar has sat on the council since it's formation out of respect for his work creating the Traditions.


Mechanically, rather then choosing a Tradition and getting a favored sphere from that, you simply choose a favored sphere. You also choose your 'flavor.'

Revelationary mages talk to invisible forces beyond the veil.

Technocratic mages makes things and use tools. Alchemist and and astrologist can fit just as much as a wielder of iPhones.

Estatic change or control there own perception and feelings to control the world.

Paragons simply master skills and techniques to a level lesser men might think miraculous.

Ritual Mages use ceremony and pomp to command the world.

Intuitive see deeper and walk among mystery.

Mages could spontaneously invent and cast rotes from their own 'flavor' and paradigm, and simply pick up and use any paradigmatically appropriate foci. They would have to learn (spend experience) on paradigmatically appropriate foci outside their flavor, or within their flavor but outside their paradigm, and the same for rotes. For things both outside paradigm AND outside flavor they would have to pay twice.

Basically, you can get your Etherite friend to teach you how to use their laser gun, but it's hard work if you don't think in turns of guns, and light is a force of revelation and truth to your mind. But it's a bit easier if you're already fastidious about taking care of tools, and you understand careful maintenance and following direction.

At various Arete breakpoints, you would pick up another flavor. Probably at 4, 7, and 10. At 6, 9, and 10 you might learn to think in another paradigm.

The Hermanic has summoned and commanded spirits for so long he starts hearing their whisper and can casually bargain and deal with them. He's gone from being a Ritual mage to also Revelation. After bargining with spirits of this and invoking angels of that, he has started to get the Virtual Adepts. He might not be fond of computers, but the basic informational nature of reality... yeah, he's behind that, and he can write books tell stories that memetically twist your world asunder.

Going from Arete eight to nine would involve some sort of extra quest to make it harder, and again going from nine to ten.

From ten on, I would barrow somewhat from Awakenings Archmagery, with each level of Archmagery getting harder and harder to unlock, involving turning inward and creating your own inner world, walking to places abstract and conceptual even to other mages, but it would also further burst open your paradigm and flavor. At Archmagery 2 you discard flavor entirely, at Archmagery 4 you have no paradigm.

At Archamagery 5 you ascend of course. We don't need level 10 spheres thank you very much.
 
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