Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

That's correct; that was an appeal to authority (my authority lol what do i even have), but like what do you want me to do? .

Well like, I've got a masters in international relations, but generally if I talk about international relations, my post graduate degree allows me to explain my arguments in an authoritative fashion. So if I was to make the argument that say "Iran is a rational actor and its actions fall within the normal bounds of statecraft." I'd be able to support that argument with stuff other than "I have a post graduate degree" like for instance, pointing out Iran's restraint in the face of the Taliban murder of it's ambassador in the 1990s, or in the fact of multiple US and Israeli provocations in the 2000s.

It is your punishment for being weaverscum



The way I did it was 'literally furry ISIS.' Wildmen who largely spend their time far away from civilization in their own enclaves, breeding endlessly with wolves to create armies of dumb expendable cannon fodder which they keep using in a horrifying crusade against human society with a very different, inhuman culture (I explicitly made them matriarchal because of their obsession with makin' more wuffs, i.e. "we want all the men wolves to be going around seducing people, not fightan (but fightan gets the glory so womenwolves run the show)." There are obviously exceptions but for the most part werewolves are angry terrorist dicks.

(the joke is that this isn't actually too far removed from what werewolves are Actually Like :V)

The Wyrm isn't nearly as 'common' as they think it is, so they often go around blowing shit up that doesn't have cosmic evil on it. But then again that's for a Technocracy game, or a Traditions game (like @EarthScorpion's JaniceQuest) where the Traditions are trying to become voices of moderation and give up the war because they think they can win the peace, and thus they both have werewolves as classical allies of convenience and a huge albatross on their necks.

I'm specifically wondering what Weaver cyborgs and the like would be in Mage, if they even exist, or the Weaver is just something that the Werewolves have made up to explain the technocracy.
 
You guys are making arguments, but I'm also hearing "You don't know X, I do because I study hard science." Or "you don't know X, but Y does because he studies hard science" as a rebuttle. Like, you're doing it again right now when you say "I've studied an appeal to authority and we're not making one."

I'm not mocking you here. I'm annoyed because rather than arguing, you're basically saying "I know about X because it's my job to know X." Which is honestly a pretty lame way to try to mount a rebuttal.
what

Appeal to authority doesn't mean that anyone who notes that they have experience in an area should immediately have their opinion discounted, dude. That is what we might politely refer to as moon logic.

A fallacious appeal to authority occurs in one of two situations:
  1. when the authority in question is not actually an authority – or the subject in question is not actually relevant to that authority
  2. when the argument outright replaces its reasoning and evidence with their authority
So are you saying these other posters are lying about their background in physics?
Are you saying a background in physics is irrelevant to knowing what chaos theory is?
Or are you saying that the reasoning thus far cited (e.g. MJ12's explanations, fucking Wikipedia quotes) is insufficient to explain for the layman how chaos theory actually works, and/or how it would actually impact the setting?

None of these three things seem to be the case to me, so you're going to have to clarify why you feel it's fallacious.
 
Well like, I've got a masters in international relations, but generally if I talk about international relations, my post graduate degree allows me to explain my arguments in an authoritative fashion. So if I was to make the argument that say "Iran is a rational actor and its actions fall within the normal bounds of statecraft." I'd be able to support that argument with stuff other than "I have a post graduate degree" like for instance, pointing out Iran's restraint in the face of the Taliban murder of it's ambassador in the 1990s, or in the fact of multiple US and Israeli provocations in the 2000s.
I mean they did that though? @EarthScorpion et al actually gave a pretty detailed and thorough high-level explaination showing why Quantnum Etherites doesn't work through the history of the concept, and going any further is going to involve bringing in actual math that I don't think anyone involved wants to delve into for the sake of an internet argument over an old roleplaying game to address a failure of bad writing
 
So, chaos theory is like, that thing that makes the Progenitor war creatures always get loose and cause mayhem, right?
 
I mean they did that though? @EarthScorpion et al actually gave a pretty detailed and thorough high-level explaination showing why Quantnum Etherites doesn't work through the history of the concept, and going any further is going to involve bringing in actual math that I don't think anyone involved wants to delve into for the sake of an internet argument over an old roleplaying game to address a failure of bad writing

Well, no matter what you think of those arguments, their merit or lack of merit rest on themselves rather than the expertise of those making them. Like, you would surely think it was unreasonable if I was to say @Peel is has [qualification] in physics, and he agrees with me thus I'm right? I've heard the explanations for why people don't like Quantum etherites at length, and I am not convinced by them. Scientifically, and more importantly thematically, it's better if New Physics are the province of non-technocratic union forces.

what

Appeal to authority doesn't mean that anyone who notes that they have experience in an area should immediately have their opinion discounted, dude. That is what we might politely refer to as moon logic.

The way I've always heard it is that someone's argument must rest on itself, not on their supposed authority. Their opinion is not being discounted, but it shouldn't be automatically given credit in a debate.
 
Last edited:
By the way, if anyone make homebrew and they want it thread-marked, just @message me.
 
It is your punishment for being weaverscum

yeah well you're a butt so there :mob:

OKAY SO WRT THE WEAVER

The first thing you have to understand is that Werewolf the Apocalypse is fucking dumb.

With that out of the way Werewolf the Apocalypse is fucking dumb and it's basically impossible to integrate the Triat as-is into Mage stuff. First and foremostly (and this really is a tip of the iceberg type situation) the idea of the Weaver as an embodiment of Stasis is literally incoherent within the gameline itself and that's without crossing anything over. Stasis is defined as a trending towards order, dogma, rigidity of thought and excision of free will. The Weaver is the embodiment of stasis, a gigantic alien god-spider who wants to bind all of reality up in its web. The Weaver is also fundamentally a creature of technological innovation and human advancement and this is directly linked to the Weaver as an avatar of Stasis.

B-because that...idk that makes sense I guess?

It makes slightly more sense than the idea that the Abrahamic god is actually either the Wyrm in groucho marx glasses or the Weaver in the same (the line can't make up its mind). This persona is called Patriarch and was created explicitly to keep women chained and yeah this is your reminder that W:tA needed to either be on less or significantly more drugs so YEAH MOVING ON. The Weaver is still basically unworkable. The Weaver's presence is strongest in modern cities (very much the "ultramodern glass and steel aesthetic because Stasis Somehow but shshsh") because they're fundamentally tied to humanity. The Weaver is responsible for because binding up the Wyrm to keep him from destroying literally everything literally all the time and thus its her fault he became a radioactive rapesatan locked in the asshole end of the Universe. The Weaver thinks that humans are great and werewolves are dicks.

Naturally the Weaver is the second greatest antagonist of the setting behind only the aforementioned radioactive rapesatan.

It's...look. I honestly don't disagree with MJ's assessment of oWolf and while I would like to pitch a more flattering vision I'd have to preface that with the note that this is me essentially doing my own thing and throwing out everything but some of the names and recurring Things and the idea of werewolves themselves. Because oWolf is kinda just that awful. It's furry neopagan terrorist simulator and just as a reference it also has mechanics in one of the splatbooks about a ritual that requires/heavily encourages hot and heavy Crinos-form gay sex. This is actually one of the better splatbooks because it doesn't talk about Super Werewolf Nazi Experiments and the tribe in question only fetishizes Native Americans somewhat and is probably the least genocidal (but largely pro-human subjugation).

But...okay with that in mind here's me essentially doing my own thing. :V

Fundamentally the core aesthetics that key in with the Weaver are: cold, inhuman technology (that STIFLES THE CRIES OF MOTHER EARTH etc etc), ultramodern metropoli (think anime Tokyo), and a constant grasping for control. A reliance on strings and strands to keep the world from going mad. The Weaver is big on capital H humanity, mankind as a whole (and is credited with helping early man stave off the semi-annual werewolf population control campaigns), but doesn't really have any particular attachment to lower-case h "humanity". The experiences or pains of a single individual. Sterile surgical rooms where werewolves get shoved full of tech is right in line with her canon set up and maybe the only thing that still works with the idea honestly. :V Calcification into the reliable, the stable, the geometric patterns of a spider's web that responds to the tremors of a fly. Not properly static no, not stagnant (honestly I think Stasis really only makes sense as werewolves being salty re: "we can't genocide everything and this is really really unfair in terms of status quo") but...very Union-OK.

...Hhhhooooonestly I could straight up see a revised sort of Weaver being an out and out Technocratic ally in much the same vein as the Computer. An NWO/Operative equivalent if you will, who supplies things like semi-friendly insect-aliens, weird xenotech full conversion frames, and heretical Glass Walker combat cyborgs. And it'd probably pan out too really because a. Incarnae ain't nothing to fuck with b. the Union has such a host of enemies that turning down friends isn't always a luxury and c. morally she's probably not measurably worse than anyone who ever sat on CONTROL.

The trick would mostly be in making sure the alien space goddess spider was only a portion of the Union, with great influence but only an ally/auxiliary rather than secretly pulling all the strings. It's important that the Technocracy be, first and foremost, a human creation and endeavor.
 
Last edited:
Mrl567 Homebrew: The Rax Expansion
The Rax

They call themselves a lot of things. "Ethnic nationalists." The "alt-Right." "anti-Globalists." The Technocracy and Traditions have coined a term for them, though. The Rax. Short for Reactionaries, their ascendance came by surprise, almost in the same way the Order of Reason did. Unfortunately for Technocrats and Traditionalists, they aren't Nephandi. They're just normal mages who show that it is so, so easy for the Awakened to step off the path of Ascension. The Nephandi, for their part, are wasting no time in pointing to their existence as a demonstration of what humans truly want, and pointing out that perhaps it would be best to acknowledge the evil of man and end the world. Coincidentally, the Nephandi have had bumper years recruiting.

What happens to a mage who is a bigot? Both the Traditions and Technocracy, for all their faults, accomodate people of all races, genders, and nations. They are sympathetic to people with disabilities-although disabled mages rarely stay that for long. Neither of them have the personnel to afford to be anything else. What happens to a mage who is an ultranationalist? Neither the Traditions or Technocracy can abide those much. The Shock Corps breaks their soldiers of nationality for a reason. The Tradition and Technocracy commit acts against all nations, as a side effect of fighting against Technocrats and Traditions and Nephandi and other supernaturals. What happens to the mages who watch the grinding, unpleasant shearing of the gears of progress, on either side, and give up on Ascension

They get shunted to the side. Ignored. Sidelined. Ostracized, but still expected to contribute. Left alone by the roadside. Until they get together. And figure out that there's many people like them. And perhaps they have the answer. Perhaps it'd be better if they were in charge. None of this pie-in-the-sky bullshit about Ascension. Just straight-up ruling. They're better than the rest of civilization. They don't care what magic you have. As long as you use it on your turf, and they get to use theirs on their turf, it's okay. Ex-Technocrats and ex-Traditionalists alike work together in the Rax. What they care about is very much temporal. They care about the current shape of society, not changing the long-term cosmic profile of consensus reality...

...and that makes them both very very shortsighted and very very dangerous.

While Rax is sort of a bad name, I do like the idea of a three way power struggle between the Traditions, Technocracy, and the Rax happening as result of a Technocracy power play going horribly wrong. I think however the Rax can be expanded into three different subgroups, nominally aligned with each other, but actually hate each others guts and view each group as pawns for their own scheming.

To get a authentic feel, I feel the article Nick Land did on a possible NRx government with the three sub-factions Trichotomocracy , is a good showcase of the three groups. I'm just using the names the article provided, someone else could likely think of a fancier name.

Ethno-Nationalists
The most common group when you think of the Rax (Alt-Right), this group is the largest of the Rax, yet the most divided. While a mix of defectors from all groups in the Traditions and Technocracy, the division causes because all of them believe that they are right and everyone else can go die in a fire. Conflicts between White/European nationalists vs revanchist Japanese/Chinese/Korean nationalists vs Islamists vs Russian National Bolsheviks vs Etc, means that cooperation is difficult. Unfortunately, they still for their respective causes have a large amount of manpower, awakened and sleeper, meaning when pressed, they are a nasty united front.

Thomists
The religious and smallest portion of the Rax, the Thomists are still a power to be dealt with mainly because unlike the other two groups they have some cultural soft power and are not called Nazis every time they do something public. Made up of from the Traditions side primary angry Christians from the Celestial Chorus (the Evangelical in America for example. They are not going down without a fight), the more ethnic types from the Verbona and Dream speakers (overlap with the Ethno-Nationalists but that depends if you local Norse god worshiping mage is more on the European nationalist side or angry pagan side of the debate) and the Kali Yuga obsessed portions of the Euthanatos and from the Technocracy the New World Order and the more occultist focused Void Engineers . The Thomists are Traditionalists in the Julius Evola sense, meaning they hate the modern world, leading to them hating the current consensus the most, with many seeking to end the world in some sort of form. Unfortunately who gets to decide which interpretation of the world going to shit is right yet again leads to infighting.

Techno-Commercialists
The Moldbug/Nick Land/Peter Thiel portion of the Rax, they have the money and the technology and seek to accelerate technology to some sort of singularity, except their the ones on top and everyone else likely ends up like the human batteries in the matrix. Made up from the Traditions the Sons of the Ether and the Virtual Adepts, and from the Technocracy all groups but mainly Iteration X, Progenitors, and the Void engineers. Have an aesthetic that ranges from Bladerunner to Shadowrun to some sort of gigeresque horror. Have the smallest amount of sleeper support, but have enough wealthy sleepers and awakened on their side to compensate for manpower with pure resource acquisition ability.


The point is while the Rax looks like a united front, in practice all the groups are in constant conflict with each other, with even the sub-groups having smaller sub-groups within them, leading to a absurd amount of infighting. The Richard Spencer white nationalist is not going to play nice with the Hindu Kali Yuga enthusiast who wants to end the world, or play nice with the Nick Land wannabe. While they may present a united front when a threat that threatens all of them pops up, more often then not they are divided. Whether the Technocracy and Traditions can use this division to stop them is another question.
 
Paradigm and you: Sons of Ether
This is a series of posts on the paradigms of various factions, giving readers an idea of where to start when creating paradigms for their characters.

The Sons of Ether are commonly thought of as mad scientists. While not wrong, this is highly simplified. Mainline Etherites believe that the key to science is passion. If you have strong enough beliefs and passions, you can do anything with science. While you can do science without passion, it will be worse and weaker than a properly passionate scientist. This is how the Etherites manage to keep up with the Technocracy despite a lack of resources. However, I say mainline. The Etherites are a 'big tent' organization, encompassing basically all scientists who don't use computers and who aren't part of the Technocracy. This means that they have to be accepting of various alternate explanations, from people who believe that electricity is sinful to people who are Technocrats in all but affiliation.

However, there is a mainline worldview among the Etherites. Mainline Etherites believe that Atlantis existed, and spread the wonders of science to the world. However, things got bogged down in mysticism, leading to the magical traditions of today. The Etherites believe that they are the heirs to the Atlantean method of science, and are thus justified in taking any grains of truth from any other tradition for their own use. The sole other commonalities between mainline Etherites are their beliefs in Space, the Hollow Earth, and Ether. They believe that space is a thing, with alien planets and whatnot. They believe that space has Ether in it, and in fact that ether can be found all around us. And they believe that the Earth is hollow, and full of dinosaurs and whatnot. Everything else is variable.

Depending on how you count, there are three or five types of Etherite. The three are Scientist, Engineer, and Adventurer. The other two are the Shadow Agency, and the Technocratic Defectors (who are not all Technocratic Defectors). Scientists have an idea of how the world works, and base almost everything they do off of that. Engineers have a way of doing things, and are willing to pick up and discard theories as it suits them. Adventurers focus on actually using the products the others create to explore, and have a focus on personal excellence. The Shadow Agency is the only one that is actually an organization, and are spies and social scientists. The Technocratic Defectors are people with mainstream views on science, who aren't as 'out there' as the other groups. Some analysts like to fold the Shadow Agency into the Adventurers, and the Technocratic Defectors into the other three, but we'll use the long-form one for now. Finally, note that the first three types can have overlap, with individuals having tendencies towards the other two, while focusing on one. (note that there are actual organizations within the Sons of Ether, but they don't really say much about paradigm. They still exist, they're just not very useful.)

Scientists have a view of the world, typically a debunked scientific theory, but often something they came up with themselves, or a theory that hasn't been proven yet, or a 'misinterpretation' of a mainstream scientific theory (usually quantum) (If you call it a misinterpretation to their face, they will probably fight you). So work out what they believe, and how it works, like you would a normal paradigm in the last post.

Doctor Hippo likes the Four Humors theory. He can adjust the humors in people's bodies with various devices, and create artificial humors for more advanced effects. The key is keeping everything balanced, and paradox effects generally come from imbalances.

Professor Quint is in love with the ether theory. He can make etheric projectors to destroy things, build spaceships, and travel to alien worlds.

Mister Quant took Quantum theory and ran with it. He made a belt that can collapse him into a quantum state when he's not being observed, and he gave himself psychic powers that work by changing how the universe works by observing it.


Engineers have a way of doing things. It might be robots, it might be cars, it might be mecha. They don't really care what theories a thing runs on, so long as it runs. Instead their paradigm is that they have a large degree of personal excellence (sometimes called the Spark of Genius) in their field that allows them to do what they do. They generally don't have many statements about how the world works, just that it does. Decide what their focus is, then work out what they can do with it.

Hot-rod has a car, which he loves. He can use it to travel through space and time, he can repair it from anything, he can add weird gizmos, and more.

Asimov likes robots. He can build a robot in a cave with a box of scraps, he can give them all sorts of cool tricks, and more.

Akagi does mecha, and does it well. She can make mecha that shoot nukes, that do weird things with molucules to become indistructible, and and that can shoot cold rays. As long as it's on a mecha, she can do it.


Adventurers don't generally make things, theories and gadgets both. Instead they use them. They also generally have a paradigm that includes 'humans can do great things,' allowing them to do magic through mundane abilities. This is generally not a codified 'thing,' but is rather being just that good. What effects they can't get through personal excellence, they get through things that other people build them. (This includes modifications like robot arms and psychic powers, though psychic powers can also fall under Scientists. If they made it themselves with their own theories, they're a scientist. If someone else did it for them, they're an Adventurer) When making an Adventurer, decide what they're good at, rather than trying to be good at everything. A good rule of thumb is that you can do science through an ability that's rated at four or above.

Anne loves aliens. This is literal. He picks up languages quickly, has a treasure trove of alien gear, and can take advantage of their psychology to make them do things.

Hudson is a man of adventure. If you want someone to fight or run from dinosaurs in the Hollow Earth, who can find awsome adventure at any turn, and who can live to tell about it, he's your man.

Rob is a cyborg. Well, really he's just a brain by now, but the docs made him pretty damn awesome. And he knows how to use his body too, and has been known to manifest gizmos that his creators are pretty sure they didn't put in.


Note that these three are relatively loose, and it's possible to fit in more than one. However, don't try to do it all, pick at most one primary and two secondary things to do.

The Shadow Agency is the intelligence and social science arm of the Etherites. They're the spies, the psychologists, and more. To make one, make either an Adventurer or a Scientist with a focus on spying (for the Adventurer) or the soft sciences (for the Scientist). Note that it's relatively rare for social scientists to use gadgets to create their effects, and they tend to rely instead on personal excellence.

Adom is a psychic, who's MO is to find a Technocrat or Nephrandi outside their base, and read their mind for all it's worth.

Jung is a psychologist, who spends a lot of time manipulating the collective unconscious for the good of the Etherites. He's gotten so good he can do it with only a few words in the right ear.

Jason is a spy, with a lot of gadgets and a lot of skill.

Technocratic Defectors are just 'normal' scientists who happen to be Etherites, politically. They tend to use relatively normal scientific theories to create their work, or at least Technocratic theories. Basically create a Technocratic paradigm. However, due to a lack of resources they often have to cut corners, using either mad science or magic for specific components, like replacing a robot's power source with an Etherite cold fusion generateor or a rune of electricity from a Hermetic. This blending is often rather unstable, and tends to focus paradox effects on the blending, when it doesn't result in flaws in the final product.

See the Technocratic write-ups for examples.
 
Last edited:
If anyone wants their posts treated as articles or periodicals, when posting your article give me the title of the series, and then the title of the instance. Basically just like notanautomaton is doing. I'll bundle them together inside the threadmarks.
 
Out of curiosity, does anyone have other interesting ideas about what they'd like to see as oMage Shard Worlds like that of The Grand Inquisitor? I'm thinking about putting together like a GURPS Infinite Worlds thing at some point
 
Out of curiosity, does anyone have other interesting ideas about what they'd like to see as oMage Shard Worlds like that of The Grand Inquisitor? I'm thinking about putting together like a GURPS Infinite Worlds thing at some point

Well, Hermetic and Craftmason switching place during the founding of Order of Reason/Early Tradition sounds interesting.
 
With that out of the way Werewolf the Apocalypse is fucking dumb and it's basically impossible to integrate the Triat as-is into Mage stuff. First and foremostly (and this really is a tip of the iceberg type situation) the idea of the Weaver as an embodiment of Stasis is literally incoherent within the gameline itself and that's without crossing anything over. Stasis is defined as a trending towards order, dogma, rigidity of thought and excision of free will. The Weaver is the embodiment of stasis, a gigantic alien god-spider who wants to bind all of reality up in its web. The Weaver is also fundamentally a creature of technological innovation and human advancement and this is directly linked to the Weaver as an avatar of Stasis.

B-because that...idk that makes sense I guess?
It's been a long, long while since I read up on that, but wasn't one of the important points that Weaver is advancement towards stagnation and strings and rigidity? Like how yes, IT is a quickly-advancing field, but it also advances towards a world where once a tweet is said and heard, it can never be removed and where the government gains more and more control and oversight over citizens, or how while universal education makes people smarter on average yet also makes people more similar to each other and gradually stamps out dialects?
 
yeah well you're a butt so there :mob:

OKAY SO WRT THE WEAVER

My slightly less nuclear take on this is that I think a general reconsideration of what exactly "Stasis" means in white wolf continuity is probably good to consider.

Because right now the whole "stasis" definition as applied to both the technos and the weaver makes very little goddamn sense. It seems more like it's about being on the "truth path" rather than being static.
 
My slightly less nuclear take on this is that I think a general reconsideration of what exactly "Stasis" means in white wolf continuity is probably good to consider.

Because right now the whole "stasis" definition as applied to both the technos and the weaver makes very little goddamn sense. It seems more like it's about being on the "truth path" rather than being static.

I think the term 'stasis' has suffered quite a bit; frankly I would move towards using clarity instead. The Weaver has a very strong clear resonance; things with clear resonances are opposed to multitudes, they remove nuance and difference in the name of one truth. Subjectivity and individualism are ignored and replaced with an objective answer and a one correct path to follow; lesser spirits are bound up in webs by myriads of pattern spiders, processed into Weaver-spirits that fill the Gauntlet with webs and calcifies it for any who do not know how to navigate the webs without being stuck upon the silken threads. Her domains are endless orb-webs and funnel-webs and tunnel-webs in a grand, unseen order where whole populations of spirits hang from sleek towers of glass and steel.
 
An important thing to note, is that Werewolf focuses a great deal on the spirit world. Stasis is an appropriate term for what the Weaver imposes on the spirit world, where there's little movement between worlds, where all the spirits perform their specific tasks rather than doing whatever they want. It's the same way an anarchist might loathe schools and work and government as being static and unchanging -- being part of a system, rather than being yourself. Considering that werewolves are expressly aligned with the spiritual force of creative chaos, their perspective of mechanistic systems as being cold and dead and static makes sense.
 
An important thing to note, is that Werewolf focuses a great deal on the spirit world. Stasis is an appropriate term for what the Weaver imposes on the spirit world, where there's little movement between worlds, where all the spirits perform their specific tasks rather than doing whatever they want. It's the same way an anarchist might loathe schools and work and government as being static and unchanging -- being part of a system, rather than being yourself. Considering that werewolves are expressly aligned with the spiritual force of creative chaos, their perspective of mechanistic systems as being cold and dead and static makes sense.

simple shelters/stone tools/kin groups -> modern megalopoli/high technology/complex hierarchy

Stasis!

modern megalopoli/high technology/complex hierarchy -> drag mankind back to prehistory and genocide them on the regular to forestall population growth and social development for literally ever

Dynamism!

i mean i guess it makes sense if you ignore how words work

It seems more like it's about being on the "truth path" rather than being static.

It really is mostly just Werewolves bitching about how the humans aren't playing fair. 'Cause they've never really gotten over how Garou teeth 'n claws were pretty cutting edge back when portable clay pots were the hot new thing but now the humans went and got shit like "hospitals" and "security forces" or in the Union's case "Peltripper 9000's aka high end HITmarks". And that's making it really hard to do the whole "bring human society crashing down" thing.

Like ten to one if a werewolf goes "weaver bullshit" it's because they just took a tungsten rod through the lung or something.
 
Last edited:
simple shelters/stone tools/kin groups -> modern megalopoli/high technology/complex hierarchy

Stasis!

modern megalopoli/high technology/complex hierarchy -> drag mankind back to prehistory and genocide them on the regular to forestall population growth and social development for literally ever

Dynamism!

i mean i guess it makes sense if you ignore how words work
Clearly you ignored the post you just quoted, where I specifically said that the focus was on the spirit world.
 
Clearly you ignored the post you just quoted, where I specifically said that the focus was on the spirit world.

Except that's not even how the game line uses it so idk what to tell you. It's pretty clearly broadly applied, with things in all aspects of society and civilization (including technological progress and social development) being the work of either the Weaver or the Wyrm and bitched about accordingly. So, yeah, it being specifically the spirit world would make some sense but W:tA very prominently and explicitly does not do that so your justification is sorta sensible and also entirely wrong.

These are wuff words.

Which have the opposite meaning of human words and are also better than them in every possible way. :V

this wouldn't even be the stupidest thing

it wouldn't even be in the top 50
 
Last edited:
Except that's not even how the game line uses it so idk what to tell you. It's pretty clearly broadly applied, with things in all aspects of society and civilization (including technological progress and social development) being the work of either the Weaver or the Wyrm and bitched about accordingly. So, yeah, it being specifically the spirit world would make some sense but W:tA very prominently and explicitly does not do that so your justification is sorta sensible and also entirely wrong.
Nah Ten, you're just thinking about this wrong; what @Godwinson is saying isn't that it makes sense, he's saying that from a certain point of view (the mindset of Werewolf developers, mainly) it makes perfect sense. Pretend now that you're a left-leaning pseudo-hippie from the 1990s writing a game about werewolves; you're writing an antagonist supposed to represent Big Government and systems and technology and you're heavily critical about the western attitude to a lot of things. Your werewolves fight for mother nature, so what are you calling your Big Government Spider Weaver?

(The answer is stasis, because from the viewpoint that you are espousing, that's what modern government is doing to the world, while the Wyrm gets corporations because all corporations are made of EVILRAPEHATE. Now this doesn't need to make sense or be reasonable, in fact the less reasonable this is, the better, but this is the sort of mindset you have to adopt to understand why decisions were made as they are on the subject of Werewolf: The Apocalypse. :V)
 
Now this doesn't need to make sense or be reasonable, in fact the less reasonable this is, the better, but this is the sort of mindset you have to adopt to understand why decisions were made as they are on the subject of Werewolf: The Apocalypse. :V)

alright if you're so goddamn clever

explain to me the mindset behind all the dog fucking manus

do that for me
 
Back
Top