Exomuscle is cheaper because someone who knows how to make Exomuscle can just pump out enhanciles, while the Akashics can't pump out Do users in the same way. The Technocrats put almost all the time commitment on someone who can mass produce the thing, while the traditions put all the commitment on the user.
But making Exomuscle isn't a specialized skill. That is, you don't train someone into a Exomuscle Maker. You train someone into being really good at, like, multiple spheres, and that takes years. It's like getting four or five PhDs. That persons time is valuable, and them making exomuscle all the time is arguably a waste of it. There are so many other important jobs for them to do.
On the flip side, scrubs who might never make anything of themselves toiling away is cheap.
But making Exomuscle isn't a specialized skill. That is, you don't train someone into a Exomuscle Maker. You train someone into being really good at, like, multiple spheres, and that takes years. It's like getting four or five PhDs. That persons time is valuable, and them making exomuscle all the time is arguably a waste of it. There are so many other important jobs for them to do.
On the flip side, scrubs who might never make anything of themselves toiling away is cheap.
Eh divsion of labor is a thing, that's both a strength and weakness of the union, that's kind of the point primal ulitilty in how it can just get other people to do actual item making itself.
Eh divsion of labor is a thing, that's both a strength and weakness of the union, that's kind of the point primal ulitilty in how it can just get other people to do actual item making itself.
For things like charms, sure. But Exomuscle is several steps past that, and the crafting rules for Wonders don't really let you delegate things like that, unless I'm forgetting part of Forged by Dragons Fire. You only have that advantage of infrastructure when working within the common paradigm.
They have greater access to quintessence through primal utility, but actually creating Wonders (which devices are (which enhancements are)) is the personal work of a mage acting as a craftsmen.
For things like charms, sure. But Exomuscle is several steps past that, and the crafting rules for Wonders don't really let you delegate things like that, unless I'm forgetting part of Forged by Dragons Fire. You only have that advantage of infrastructure when working within the common paradigm.
They have greater access to quintessence through primal utility, but actually creating Wonders (which devices are (which enhancements are)) is the personal work of a mage acting as a craftsmen.
That's not at all true. Mages are by no means forced to act as personal craftsmen when making Wonders/Devices.
All it requires is that the mage put the time in by advising/managing the project, if they have the appropriate paradigm. Which the Syndicate (and other Conventions) have:
Article:
Personnel
Every Convention values sympathizers and Extraordinary Citizens. Syndicate agents manage them with superior ability. Supervision is a science. By fostering capitalism, they created the basic expectations and reward systems used in organizations around the world, and gained a foothold into the modern mass psyche. Syndicate management helps ordinary people work harder, innovate, and combine their efforts to achieve incredible productivity. Agents grow miracles in cube farms. Extraordinary Citizens (those capable of using "Paths" of limited hypertechnology) act as consultants outside the normal management structure. Ordinary doctors, scientists, and executives benefit from motivational techniques and Syndicate vision to perform incredible feats. Thus, a Syndicate agent doesn't need to be a skilled surgeon to perform Life Procedures — he uses his knowledge to help an ordinary surgeon do amazing things. Unskilled labor takes care of the repetitive scut work needed to get a Procedure off the ground. They help agents perform ambitious Procedures that require data entry or manufacturing.
To use personnel as an Apparatus, an agent organizes a team to complete a Procedure, while her player describes in general terms how the team acts under the operative's command. (Storytellers, don't be too demanding with specifics — the agent is a management genius, but the player isn't.) Personnel can't be turned into living Extraordinary Devices without the highest understanding of Primal Utility.
To make a Device using "I have skilled workers" as a focus, you just need to have the skilled workers (and the machinery and the tools, etc).
That's not at all true. Mages are by no means forced to act as personal craftsmen when making Wonders/Devices.
All it requires is that the mage put the time in by advising/managing the project, if they have the appropriate paradigm. Which the Syndicate (and other Conventions) have:
Article:
Personnel
Every Convention values sympathizers and Extraordinary Citizens. Syndicate agents manage them with superior ability. Supervision is a science. By fostering capitalism, they created the basic expectations and reward systems used in organizations around the world, and gained a foothold into the modern mass psyche. Syndicate management helps ordinary people work harder, innovate, and combine their efforts to achieve incredible productivity. Agents grow miracles in cube farms. Extraordinary Citizens (those capable of using "Paths" of limited hypertechnology) act as consultants outside the normal management structure. Ordinary doctors, scientists, and executives benefit from motivational techniques and Syndicate vision to perform incredible feats. Thus, a Syndicate agent doesn't need to be a skilled surgeon to perform Life Procedures — he uses his knowledge to help an ordinary surgeon do amazing things. Unskilled labor takes care of the repetitive scut work needed to get a Procedure off the ground. They help agents perform ambitious Procedures that require data entry or manufacturing.
To use personnel as an Apparatus, an agent organizes a team to complete a Procedure, while her player describes in general terms how the team acts under the operative's command. (Storytellers, don't be too demanding with specifics — the agent is a management genius, but the player isn't.) Personnel can't be turned into living Extraordinary Devices without the highest understanding of Primal Utility.
To make a Device using "I have skilled workers" as a focus, you just need to have the skilled workers (and the machinery and the tools, etc).
Sure, but do you do less work spending eight hours a day managing a team then you do spending eight hours a day forging and quenching a blade? Like, the first one both lets you use skills you don't have, and the personal probably count as Cult (I have no idea why Cult is a tradition background, when using teams of experts is a Technocratic stable). Even a small lab doing specialized work can get up to Cult 5, which just requires 30 some odd sleepers. That gives you +5 successes on every roll, which makes the work go faster.
But that makes all the other kinds of work you also do go faster. We're talking about marginal utility costs of the time of a highly skilled mage.
There's a couple other factors that can make Exomuscle - rather, any standardized Devices - significantly easier to produce by orders of magnitude.
First, Wonder Spheres. They're half as expensive in basically all meaningful ways as any actual Spheres, and a set of Exomuscle is basically a Life 3/Prime 4 wonder, so someone with Lab versions of Life 3 and Prime 4 effectively isn't so much as an Adept in one sphere, let alone multiple.
Second, standardization. You can have someone with the actual requisite Spheres design the thing, and then compile all that into a rote which is used to make specifically Exomuscle. Once that's done, the rote can be passed out to people with Life 2/Prime 3, or encoded in a Device that is actually a team of dudes who perform the ritual to make the Exomuscle. You do not actually need even a single Adept-level Mage involved at any stage of the process past compiling the rote or training the Device-squad.
Running through the numbers from Forged By Dragon's Fire, Exomuscle comes out at approximately 4-5 hours of management-time given a squad of 30 non-Mage engineers and their associated 6 bonus successes (standard ritual-casting rules for acolytes). Either for an Invention version (which seems to be what it's supposed to be given the Enlightenment N/A) or a Device version. That's not a particularly huge investment if, per the above, you actually have a dedicated two-half-spheres E3 Mage who can make the things. The bits where you need Tass and Primium and need to implant it into whoever are entirely distinct steps which you're either (a) already dedicated to doing because the Union lurves Tass and Primium or (b) can be done by a trained Sleeper with Biotech 3 trained up.
Sure, but do you do less work spending eight hours a day managing a team then you do spending eight hours a day forging and quenching a blade? Like, the first one both lets you use skills you don't have
While it's true that the TU can ultimately spread the time across a whole lot of lackies while the Akashics by their nature can't, my original point was just that, for reasons aesthetic (Watson) and balance (Doyle), the total number of man-hours spent between them (including resource harvesting, etc) should be about the same. The TU ultimately has a metric fuckload more people and has a paradigm that makes their time fundamentally fungible, but that's a separate consideration to the actual base cost.
Second, standardization. You can have someone with the actual requisite Spheres design the thing, and then compile all that into a rote which is used to make specifically Exomuscle. Once that's done, the rote can be passed out to people with Life 2/Prime 3, or encoded in a Device that is actually a team of dudes who perform the ritual to make the Exomuscle. You do not actually need even a single Adept-level Mage involved at any stage of the process past compiling the rote or training the Device-squad.
Technically this isn't RAW. Of course, technically if you're using my Do rework you're already walking away from rules-as-written and I do generally allow rotes to let you sometimes do a thing with a sphere level 1 dot lower than normal (but you still need the spheres), so you have an actual reason to buy rotes. So if you're a Hermetic you can buy a rote to throw around fireballs (Forces 3/Prime 2 agg damage) with only Forces 2/Prime 1 or whatever.
It's basically intended to again emphasize that the spheres are more or less abstractions, as are the ratings in them.
Also arguably exomuscle would need Matter of some level to integrate living and nonliving matter together but that depends on whether you think there's a qualitative or paradigmic difference between cyborg implants and other things. So maximum level you're talking Life 3/Matter 3/Prime 3 in lab spheres. Probably lower than that. This is a thing that quite a few Technocrats can supervise, and it's like, interns who can't.
While it's true that the TU can ultimately spread the time across a whole lot of lackies while the Akashics by their nature can't, my original point was just that, for reasons aesthetic (Watson) and balance (Doyle), the total number of man-hours spent between them (including resource harvesting, etc) should be about the same. The TU ultimately has a metric fuckload more people and has a paradigm that makes their time fundamentally fungible, but that's a separate consideration.
Not really. Do is specifically intended to be an inefficient way to get you to learn to fite. The Akashics don't have the monopoly of being even the most effective fitemages.
It's the most powerful fighting style that should be commonly available and should provide a hard cap on what you can do without straight-up using actively cast magical effects or making a bespoke Wonder that's based off of your intense fite training, but if you want to fight good, you meditate on the god-form of Popeye the Sailor and mainline cans of spinach, gaining his terrifying, inhuman strength and endurance (if you're a Thig) and that is and should be cheaper.
Not really. Do is specifically intended to be an inefficient way to get you to learn to fite. The Akashics don't have the monopoly of being even the most effective fitemages.
It's the most powerful fighting style that should be commonly available and should provide a hard cap on what you can do without straight-up using actively cast magical effects or making a bespoke Wonder that's based off of your intense fite training, but if you want to fight good, you meditate on the god-form of Popeye the Sailor and mainline cans of spinach, gaining his terrifying, inhuman strength and endurance (if you're a Thig) and that is and should be cheaper.
I mean, that just gets you a few stat boosts, though? That's not even remotely comparable to exomuscle's laundry list of powerful passive effects, or Do letting you do a bunch of things that normally requires active casting plus being a nearly universal focus.
More comparable would be something like, I dunno, bootleg Piero, going "I am going to take on the legend of Achilles, and gain not only his strength and speed but also his skill, his tactical instinct, and his eye for the arts of war" -- and that feels to me like it'd end up being pretty damn expensive or else coming with a whole lot of balance flaws.
I mean, that just gets you a few stat boosts, though? That's not even remotely comparable to exomuscle's laundry list of powerful passive effects, or Do letting you do a bunch of things that normally requires active casting plus being a nearly universal focus.
More comparable would be something like, I dunno, bootleg Piero, going "I am going to take on the legend of Achilles, and gain not only his strength and speed but also his skill, his tactical instinct, and his eye for the arts of war" -- and that feels to me like it'd end up being pretty damn expensive or else coming with a whole lot of balance flaws.
The point is that achieving mastery of Do is about achieving self-enlightenment, and it just so happens that being enlightened teaches you a terrifying alien way of hurting people who are not as enlightened. If you strip away the whole 'self-enlightenment journey' thing and just go with more typical ways of gaining magical supersoldier-dom, it should be more efficient to do the latter.
The Akashics aren't actually the premier militant arms of the Traditions-that would probably be the Euthanatos, and I'd put House Janissary as having a decent claim to being #2 along with the Akashics. Since the Akashics were fighting a stalemate against the Chakravanti, but the Euthanatos are the Chakravanti and a whole lot of other death-mage groups who tended to learn to be good at fite.
Technically this isn't RAW. Of course, technically if you're using my Do rework you're already walking away from rules-as-written and I do generally allow rotes to let you sometimes do a thing with a sphere level 1 dot lower than normal (but you still need the spheres), so you have an actual reason to buy rotes. So if you're a Hermetic you can buy a rote to throw around fireballs (Forces 3/Prime 2 agg damage) with only Forces 2/Prime 1 or whatever.
It's basically intended to again emphasize that the spheres are more or less abstractions, as are the ratings in them.
There is precedent for the 'do stuff with one fewer dot level' in the sourcebooks. It's scattered and relatively obscure, but both Spirit Ways and The Red Sign contain objects that can allow a Mage to get away with one lower dot for specific effects. The former by using a special personalized focus object, the latter containing books that are by all measures Grimoires that teach that sort of rote. With a lot of Lovecraft overtones and the like, but still.
The point is that achieving mastery of Do is about achieving self-enlightenment, and it just so happens that being enlightened teaches you a terrifying alien way of hurting people who are not as enlightened. If you strip away the whole 'self-enlightenment journey' thing and just go with more typical ways of gaining magical supersoldier-dom, it should be more efficient to do the latter.
The Akashics aren't actually the premier militant arms of the Traditions-that would probably be the Euthanatos, and I'd put House Janissary as having a decent claim to being #2 along with the Akashics. Since the Akashics were fighting a stalemate against the Chakravanti, but the Euthanatos are the Chakravanti and a whole lot of other death-mage groups who tended to learn to be good at fite.
You can always use Sorcerers and non-Awakened magic for specializion. They like excel at narrow, linear Paths or something.
A lot about Revised Sorcerers written with "up to GM" clause, but basically everyone has those guys. Probably, there's even more Sorcerers, than Awakened Mages.
You can take one of the basic Paths or make up your own.
At our table hypothesized (made up bullshit starts here), that Technocracy works the system from above. Top magement > Enlightened Agents > Sorcerers (Extraordinary Citizen) > Acolytes (???). (I may forgot the lingo, but you get the gist of it). First Awakened Mages innovate, then lesser personnel copy, reproduce, popularize and integrate.
You can always use Sorcerers and non-Awakened magic for specializion. They like excel at narrow, linear Pa
At our table hypothesized (made up bullshit starts here), that Technocracy works the system from above. Top magement > Enlightened Agents > Sorcerers (Extraordinary Citizen) > Acolytes (). (I may forgot the lingo, but you get the gist of it). First Awakened Mages innovate, then lesser personnel copy, reproduce, popularize and integrate.
Doesnt that kind of go again the point that the technocracy is a technocracy that's at least in theory it's supposed to be meritocratic. It's quite feasible for a sorcerer to out do a mage in a narrow specialized field then one who just dabbles in it.
Doesnt that kind of go again the point that the technocracy is a technocracy that's at least in theory it's supposed to be meritocratic. It's quite feasible for a sorcerer to out do a mage in a narrow specialized field then one who just dabbles in it.
Doesnt that kind of go again the point that the technocracy is a technocracy that's at least in theory it's supposed to be meritocratic. It's quite feasible for a sorcerer to out do a mage in a narrow specialized field then one who just dabbles in it.
Last time I checked (and I may be quite ignorant on Technocracy post-M20), it's very hierarchical organization, to the point, where upper echelons look on lower echelons. Bigotry (or at least condescension) to Sorcerers is not universal, but somewhat common across all Traditions, Crafts and Conventions. Sometimes -less, sometimes - more.
But there is no direct contradiction - individual Sorcerer (Extraordinary Citizen) may outperform individual Awakened (Enlightened) at Procedures within a narrow field. At least, as long as we talk about Arete 1-5. Sorcerers may dabble into Paths up to 6th dot. The obvious downside is (usually) time, they need to get there and lack of versatility.
But high-Arete Sphere-trained Mage can develop Procedures on the fly, as long as it's within her Paradigm/Focus/Style.
Considering, what Masters (5-dot Spheres) could do (and what Technocracy Elders could do) and that Technocratic leadership had timetable of "introducing" pre-conceived theories, sciences and technologies (at least until Avatar Storm hit the fan in Revised edition), whatever left to lesser Agents is to do, what they're told. And don't forget brainwashing. Never forget brainwashing.
Of course, each subsequent edition tried to distance Technocracy from it's Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain roots, so it really depends. M20 introduces Evil Alien Doppelgangers to make Technocracy more heroic. Revised Edition cut off Technocrats from their Old Heartless Bastards leadership.
The point is that achieving mastery of Do is about achieving self-enlightenment, and it just so happens that being enlightened teaches you a terrifying alien way of hurting people who are not as enlightened. If you strip away the whole 'self-enlightenment journey' thing and just go with more typical ways of gaining magical supersoldier-dom, it should be more efficient to do the latter.
The Akashics aren't actually the premier militant arms of the Traditions-that would probably be the Euthanatos, and I'd put House Janissary as having a decent claim to being #2 along with the Akashics. Since the Akashics were fighting a stalemate against the Chakravanti, but the Euthanatos are the Chakravanti and a whole lot of other death-mage groups who tended to learn to be good at fite.
Isn't the whole point of do that self enlightment also makes you a good fighter though? It's part of their paradigm that one doesn't really detract from the other.
Isn't the whole point of do that self enlightment also makes you a good fighter though? It's part of their paradigm that one doesn't really detract from the other.
I mean yes, but the result of that is that every Akashic is necessarily pretty good at fighting. Do 1-2 and the Martial Arts required (tbh I think I might make the requirement MA 2/3/4/5/6 for the 5 tiers, which means Do 5 requires being a prodigy or a super-old master [fortunately Do 4 lets you exceed human lifespans]) mean you are a competent fighter capable of holding your own in a fight with most enemies. You're going to have a few points of extra lethal/agg soak, not be as affected by injuries, and you can punch pretty solidly. With some magic you're even more brutal. If you get cornered by like, 8 hooligans (Dex 2, Melee 1, tire irons dealing +3B or so damage) you'll do pretty well, especially if you add a little bit of low level magic in and force them to fight you one at a time.
But an Akashic who studies Do to become enlightened (MA 3, Do 2, physicals at 3) gets into a fight with an exojock (MA 4, Bionic CQC 3, physicals at 5+) gets smeared all over the wall. Or if the Akashic decides to challenge Westin (Dex 6, Firearms 5, some form of supernatural shootin' skill merit, Legendary Dex) to a fight because Westin doesn't have Do and brings fists to a Mjolnir fight, that Akashic is going to have a very, very bad time.
I think bringing fists to a Mjolnir fight should be totally viable...but as you said, you need to use fite good as a goal rather than a side benefit of your Do/Magic/Focus. The guy who sets out to become the worlds best gunman or the worlds best Martial Artist should be things to put your magic towards.
I want the group of Technocratic Exo-jocks to get nervous when a wrinkly old bald dude in a dogi steps into the hallway while they are assaulting the Chantry...but I also want the group of martial artists to be nervous when some asshole dives through the window in his power armour and stats shooting plasma all over the place.
A while ago someone did a post on why it's dumb that the Etherites put Quantum Physics in the scientific consensus. Can someone link me to it or something?
I think bringing fists to a Mjolnir fight should be totally viable...but as you said, you need to use fite good as a goal rather than a side benefit of your Do/Magic/Focus. The guy who sets out to become the worlds best gunman or the worlds best Martial Artist should be things to put your magic towards.
I want the group of Technocratic Exo-jocks to get nervous when a wrinkly old bald dude in a dogi steps into the hallway while they are assaulting the Chantry...but I also want the group of martial artists to be nervous when some asshole dives through the window in his power armour and stats shooting plasma all over the place.
My thought is that someone who invests a frightening amount into Fite Gud is going to be horrifying and outclass people who don't invest into Fite Gud kind of by default. And a lot of Akashics don't actually invest that much into Fite Gud, because they're there for the enlightenment.
This is compared to like, the Knights of Radamanthys or the Shock Corps where if you're there, you're there because you decided "I will become so good at fight that my enemies will only whisper my name in fear" is not a side effect of gaining frightening power, but a trait you deliberately are seeking. An average Akashic is going to be fit, well-trained, and capable of supernatural combat prowess. They'll do quite well against like, a team of Navy SEALs.
But when that team of Navy SEALs actually are possessed by incarnations of legendary Native American warriors rather than just thinking they are, and have the supernatural fite prowess to match, then you'll want to have more than just reasonably good physical attributes, Martial Arts 3, and 2 dots of Do.
A while ago someone did a post on why it's dumb that the Etherites put Quantum Physics in the scientific consensus. Can someone link me to it or something?
There were lots of posts like that. The general argument started with a response to this, went into Chaos Theory and then arrived at Quantum mechanics after a while.
A while ago someone did a post on why it's dumb that the Etherites put Quantum Physics in the scientific consensus. Can someone link me to it or something?
If Chaos Theory and Quantum Mechanics had been inserted by the traditions, we would have seen massive pushback against them. We didn't see that, so we can conclude that they aren't.
