Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

[WhatIf]

That was a cool post but it kind of completely falls apart at this part.

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I'm not sure I succeeded in conveying what I intended to convey with that post.

It's not like such a fighting style can't work, you just need to realize that bad rolls could screw over delay the plan and that you might come out with plenty of paradox. Being coincidental is always rewarded, but if you're willing to take a chance or pay willpower and spend quintessence to tip the odds you can make a more blunt force strategy work.

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My point was that a direct vulgar attack can work just fine, depending on how much you're willing to commit. It may not be the optimal strategy, but it can be just as fun. Yes there are consequences to cutting loose. Yes there are benefits to hewing to the consensus. The quote I was arguing was this one:

Both of those effects are worse than just adding a shitload of damage to a gun though.

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Just because they are less mechanically effective doesn't mean that they don't do their job. A dead person is a dead person, extra damage doesn't make them more dead. If your opponent can't soak Aggravated damage then spending 3 willpower and/or some quintessence to get 3 successes on a fireball and deal 7 damage is enough to take someone out. If you're a tiger you can integrate your claw attack with a Life 3 Rip the Man Body rote that gives you a bunch of Aggravated damage or use Prime to turn your claws to Aggravated. As long as you deal 7 aggravated damage the person is dead, except for the rare person who can soak Aggravated or has more than 7 HLs. If you're up against someone like that then you are obviously going to need some real preparation. But it doesn't pay to count someone willing to use vulgar magic out.

The Taftani have a rote that delays paradox backlash, letting it slowly bleed out when it should have exploded. The Taftani also have a rote that acts as regenerating spirit HLs that can throw bullets back at those who shot them. The Hermetics have a rote that blows up guns. The Hermetics have a rote that turns a man into a flying, 1 ton, 1000 degree, iron hammer to attack your enemies. The Taftani have a rote that can disassemble a force or object into it's component quintessence and spiritual ephemera.

Are these rotes difficult and dangerous? Yes, generally speaking, but so is being a mage on the run from the Technocracy. A lot of mages will face a point where they have to choose between paradox and death, and they pretty much always choose paradox. There is a reason Periapts are such valued magical items. Quintessence allows you to lower difficulties, and Periapts are quintessence batteries, allowing a person to carry more quintessence than their pattern normally can. Then there's willpower, mages have it for a reason.

Is it possible to get outgunned? Absolutely! If you suspect you are outgunned you should probably run to fight another day. But there is a reason the Technocracy needs to be so well armed, and it isn't just their fondness for overkill. Some mages are excellent at maintaining a coincidental cover. Some mages have stopped the pretense of acting like the technocracy's laws of physics matter. A mage who fights vulgar is either stupid or desperate, and you don't want to fight a mage with nothing to lose.

 

[Talkkno]

Yeah but still indicates that direct damage spells are pretty underwhelming. A hermetic throwing a fireball should be at least the same level of escalation as pulling out a plasma cannon.

 

[LSkullD]

It's not even the themes. The basic axioms would cause a war. I wouldn't be surprised if you asked the thread how consensual is reality in Mage and what are the limits of paradigm shifts you would have an interpretation by posters.

Which is not surprising considering even official authors are not that coherent about it.

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That honestly feels like part of the point though.

 

[WarpObscura]

After catching up with PQ I've got to admit I'm confused about Void Adaptation.

So after 3 months out in the Umbra without any contact with Earth you turn into a spirit, right? But is it a gradual process where you lose yourself over time until you hit the deadline and then it's over, but can still be arrested in time? Or an all-or-nothing where you're groovy until you cross the Rubicon?

 

[UrsaTempest]

Probably a bit of both. For TU, it seems flavored as stranded technocrats getting desperate and takes increasingly more radical measure to survive in the void until they're spirits.

 

[Bel]

Its more you need a steady access of energy from a Node IIRC. I would imagine your steadily becoming less...real in those three months but after that three months you have passed the tipping point where your more spirit than 'living human' and access to Earth/Prime Energy will no longer re-energise you.

 

[WhatIf]

After catching up with PQ I've got to admit I'm confused about Void Adaptation.

So after 3 months out in the Umbra without any contact with Earth you turn into a spirit, right? But is it a gradual process where you lose yourself over time until you hit the deadline and then it's over, but can still be arrested in time? Or an all-or-nothing where you're groovy until you cross the Rubicon?

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The step from mage to spirit was once a long one, long enough that it almost required a conscious effort. Often, with the proper precautions, one could last for up to a year without succumbing to the siren song of the ephemeral world. Not so now, in these days after the Reckoning. The coming of the Avatar Storm has heralded an omen perhaps even grimmer and certainly far more insidious. After dwelling in the Umbrafor three full lunar cycles (each cycle being phase to phase,about twenty-eight and one-quarter days each, or about 84 days — 12 weeks — total), a fully terrestrial being, such as an animal, Sleeper or mage, almost certainly will become a spirit permanently, losing connection to the physical world and taking on the characteristics of an Umbral native. Though some elements of the original personality and identity of the newly born spirit may show through, the entity that now exists is no longer a thing of flesh and belongs fully to the Otherworlds. Each week spent in the Umbra beyond the third lunar month requires a Willpower roll (beginning at difficulty 8 and increasing by one for each week thereafter, using the same rules as for magic difficulties above nine). If a roll is failed, the mage must seek to escape the Umbra quickly (within a few hours at most) or else be transformed forevermore into a spirit. This affects even mages in Horizon Realms, which were once immune to disconnection.

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The Long Road Home: Acclimation
After extended jaunts into the Umbra, wherein the body becomes saturated with ephemeral matter and the form
begins, almost from the moment of entry, to slowly lose solidity of Pattern, most mages require a bit of time to fully readjust to the material world. This Acclimation is a mere nuisance for those who have just spent a few days in the Umbra, but can be a more serious concern for those who have stretched their Disembodiment tolerance to its limits. The penalties endured during Acclimation are as follows:

Length of Journey	Penalties
Up to one week	None. However, the mage may experience some slight disorientation for journeys approaching the four-day mark, and this should be roleplayed.
Two to three weeks	+1 to the difficulty of any physical application of an Ability for one day after returning.
Four to five weeks	+1 to the difficulty of any physical application of an Ability for two days after returning and +1 to the difficulty of all Pattern (Forces, Life and Matter Spheres) magics for one day after returning.
Six to seven weeks	+2 to the difficulty of any physical application of an Ability for two days after returning, lessened to +1 difficulty for three days thereafter. Further, +1 to the difficulty of all Pattern magics for three days after returning.
Eight to nine weeks	+2 to the difficulty of any physical application of an Ability for four days after returning, lessened to +1 difficulty for a week thereafter. Further, +1 to the difficulty of all Pattern magics for one week after returning.
10 weeks +	Even if the mage is not Disembodied, he accrues a final Acclimation penalty at this point: +3 to the difficulty of any physical application of an Ability for four days after returning, lessened to +2 for a week thereafter and +1 for the week after that. Further, +2 to the difficulty of all Pattern magics for three days after returning, lessened to +1 difficulty for one week thereafter.

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[Chloe Sullivan]

some of those are meant to resemble the effects of long term microgravity, no?

 

[BossFight]

Are there any good mage the ascension Actual Plays, fics or quests? I'm very much in the mood to play them but I moved recently and dont have a group anymore so I need to get my fix another way.

The only one I currently know of is Panopticon Quest.

 

[BossFight]

Also does anyone else have trouble with running a technocracy mage? I tend to find myself limited by what I "know" the world really works and so have trouble finding a good limit for what my character can do.

Like either I think "I can't inject stem cells into my body and turn into the hulk because whereas the mass coming from" or "who cares where the mass comes from, stem cells let me do anything!"

Summarizing it this way, I have trouble coming up with a paradigm besides "actual science" and so when I go beyond that I end up with no paradigm at all.

 

[Quantumboost]

That's why you make it so the stem cells are werewolf stem cells and then eat a bunch of cheeseburgers.

But yes I distinctly recall at least one player in my game having similar difficulties with paradigmatic limits. Also with the Progenitors and Life transformations, as it happens.

 

[Ivan the Not-so-Terrible]

Also does anyone else have trouble with running a technocracy mage? I tend to find myself limited by what I "know" the world really works and so have trouble finding a good limit for what my character can do.

Like either I think "I can't inject stem cells into my body and turn into the hulk because whereas the mass coming from" or "who cares where the mass comes from, stem cells let me do anything!"

Summarizing it this way, I have trouble coming up with a paradigm besides "actual science" and so when I go beyond that I end up with no paradigm at all.

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Something something EDEs something

Alternately, consider playing a NWO or Syndicate character.

 

[TheLastOne]

Also does anyone else have trouble with running a technocracy mage? I tend to find myself limited by what I "know" the world really works and so have trouble finding a good limit for what my character can do.

Like either I think "I can't inject stem cells into my body and turn into the hulk because whereas the mass coming from" or "who cares where the mass comes from, stem cells let me do anything!"

Summarizing it this way, I have trouble coming up with a paradigm besides "actual science" and so when I go beyond that I end up with no paradigm at all.

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Start with the idea that Enlightened Science is actually pretty far out there - it plays at being sleeper-compliant but if you actually get a Technocrat to seriously talk about his paradigm it's not more consensual reality OK then Hermetic tradition.

 

[UrsaTempest]

NWO superhacker is fun. Something something big data something.

Also, Stealing Your Precious Things (Prime 1, Correspondent 1).

 

[BossFight]

Something something EDEs something

Alternately, consider playing a NWO or Syndicate character.

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I actually do have a much easier time playing both of those paradigms. I think part of it is that paradigms like super spy or have lots of money are inherently more focused then "scientist". A scientist is a job more so than it is a paradigm. It doesn't really tell you what you do or how you do it, so I'm left without structure. One of the ways I can see to get around this is to narrow scope. An expert in human/ animal grafting or lightning is inherently more focused then good at "machines" or biology. I might even take reference from games like Overwatch. Reinhardt is a great example of a iteration X member who's paradigm is "I really know my armor so I can upgrade it and push it to its limits"

Start with the idea that Enlightened Science is actually pretty far out there - it plays at being sleeper-compliant but if you actually get a Technocrat to seriously talk about his paradigm it's not more consensual reality OK then Hermetic tradition.

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Do you have any examples? I'd love to hear these?

 

[TheLastOne]

I actually do have a much easier time playing both of those paradigms. I think part of it is that paradigms like super spy or have lots of money are inherently more focused then "scientist". A scientist is a job more so than it is a paradigm. It doesn't really tell you what you do or how you do it, so I'm left without structure. One of the ways I can see to get around this is to narrow scope. An expert in human/ animal grafting or lightning is inherently more focused then good at "machines" or biology. I might even take reference from games like Overwatch. Reinhardt is a great example of a iteration X member who's paradigm is "I really know my armor so I can upgrade it and push it to its limits"

Do you have any examples? I'd love to hear these?

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A great Syndicate example I've seen people use is using primal utility to get a gun in a locked room to shoot out the lock by raising demand so high the market will provide. Inside a locked room.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Part of being a Technocrat is accepting that yes, you do actually need that prep time. You are less good at on-the-fly dynamic magic than many people.

Then turn it to your advantage by thinking carefully about what rotes and focuses you can pre-prepare to be able to do the things you want to do anyway.

For example, don't just hulk out. Re-engineer your musculature in advance to be capable of supporting an energy intensive mode for short durations (also strengthen your bones, tendons, circulatory system, etc) and then when you need to "cast the spell", inject yourself with concentrated energy-rich fuel. Rather than hulking out, you instead operate at the maximum capacity of your modified body until you run out of sugars and return to normal.

 

[Ivan the Not-so-Terrible]

A great Syndicate example I've seen people use is using primal utility to get a gun in a locked room to shoot out the lock by raising demand so high the market will provide. Inside a locked room.

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Well yeah, but Syndics are just money-Hermetics (as opposed to moneyed Hermetics, who give sacrifices to bull-related gods to create a bull market or hunt bears to weaken the bear god or something like that).

Full insanity Progenitor is, idunno, "muh genetic determinism nature beats nurture" Time 2/Entropy 1 prediction with the target's DNA.

 

[Renu]

A great Syndicate example I've seen people use is using primal utility to get a gun in a locked room to shoot out the lock by raising demand so high the market will provide. Inside a locked room.

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And this is why I can't understand how Syndicates aren't considered RDs. Aside from the fact that they're the ones paying the other conventions. Speaking of which, isn't it strange that the NWO (among others, but I think they're the most paranoid of the bunch) accepts being put under the paradygm and thus at the mercy of the Syndicate by accepting having a budget?

 

[TheLastOne]

And this is why I can't understand how Syndicates aren't considered RDs. Aside from the fact that they're the ones paying the other conventions. Speaking of which, isn't it strange that the NWO (among others, but I think they're the most paranoid of the bunch) accepts being put under the paradygm and thus at the mercy of the Syndicate by accepting having a budget?

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The NWO isn't as... well, weird as the Syndicate, but they have psychic bullshit and ideas/ideals as reality stuff going on themselves, though they tend to be pretty subtle about it. But the big reason they work together is that they work together. Like, yes both the Sons and the V.A. used to be part of the union and left, but in both cases it was after having serious disagreements with the direction the Union was going in, rather then paradigm.

People talk about getting rid of Ether being what made the Sons of Ether leave, but that's incomplete. They got rid of ether because, yes, it was being used as a paradigm tool by traditionalists as well as the Sons, but the other conventions didn't come to that decision out of nowhere. It was a punishment for the Son's ignoring the Time Table and pushing social and technological changes faster then the other conversions were comfortable with, and giving sleepers tools the other conventions wanted to reserve for themselves.

You get a very similar story again with the Virtual Adapts, though their leaving was much more abrupt, rather then at the end of a long series of disagreements. Which ironically seems to have left less bad blood. Again, they broke step with the rest of the Union, and left.

The Syndicate hasn't. They're perfectly happy working with the rest of the Union, getting the support of the rest of the Union, trading influence and direction with the rest of the Union, and pushing the advancement of humanity down the long ago set Time Table published by the Union.

 

[The Laurent]

The NWO isn't as... well, weird as the Syndicate, but they have psychic bullshit and ideas/ideals as reality stuff going on themselves, though they tend to be pretty subtle about it. But the big reason they work together is that they work together. Like, yes both the Sons and the V.A. used to be part of the union and left, but in both cases it was after having serious disagreements with the direction the Union was going in, rather then paradigm.

People talk about getting rid of Ether being what made the Sons of Ether leave, but that's incomplete. They got rid of ether because, yes, it was being used as a paradigm tool by traditionalists as well as the Sons, but the other conventions didn't come to that decision out of nowhere. It was a punishment for the Son's ignoring the Time Table and pushing social and technological changes faster then the other conversions were comfortable with, and giving sleepers tools the other conventions wanted to reserve for themselves.

You get a very similar story again with the Virtual Adapts, though their leaving was much more abrupt, rather then at the end of a long series of disagreements. Which ironically seems to have left less bad blood. Again, they broke step with the rest of the Union, and left.

The Syndicate hasn't. They're perfectly happy working with the rest of the Union, getting the support of the rest of the Union, trading influence and direction with the rest of the Union, and pushing the advancement of humanity down the long ago set Time Table published by the Union.

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Though frankly the Time Table always seemed kinda bizarre? Like, if it was actually set up a long time ago, then shouldn't it be totally full of absolute bullshit? (And that's just if it's technological time table, but there's talk about 'social' changes too.)

 

[Ivan the Not-so-Terrible]

Though frankly the Time Table always seemed kinda bizarre? Like, if it was actually set up a long time ago, then shouldn't it be totally full of absolute bullshit? (And that's just if it's technological time table, but there's talk about 'social' changes too.)

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It's more of a "Five Year Plan" sort of thing, except every fifteen years. There's long term goals but they're separate from the Time Table.

 

[TheLastOne]

Though frankly the Time Table always seemed kinda bizarre? Like, if it was actually set up a long time ago, then shouldn't it be totally full of absolute bullshit? (And that's just if it's technological time table, but there's talk about 'social' changes too.)

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The unyielding, unsympathetic weight of alien master disconnected from the world or it's day to day concerns is part of the Technocratic wheelhouse. They are the Illuminati, the decedents of the Freemasons, and they work is long in coming. You are just a piece on a board. If it is a part of the plan, maybe you'll one day rise high enough to vote and shape it, but only after the strings are so tightly wound that you'll make all the same moves and all the same choices as the ones who came before you.

 

[The Laurent]

The unyielding, unsympathetic weight of alien master disconnected from the world or it's day to day concerns is part of the Technocratic wheelhouse. They are the Illuminati, the decedents of the Freemasons, and they work is long in coming. You are just a piece on a board. If it is a part of the plan, maybe you'll one day rise high enough to vote and shape it, but only after the strings are so tightly wound that you'll make all the same moves and all the same choices as the ones who came before you.

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I meant more about how, like. What does the "Time Table" involve? If it involves Social Stuff then you'd probably have random 'scientific' goals that are absolute nonsense in the, you know. Racist, Sexist. Everything-imaginable-ist way.[1]

Admittedly, you can say, "Yep."

(It just contrasts with the MJ12/etc interpretation. But then again, that's why this whole thread was split off.)

[1] Study history if you think that the scientific mainstream wasn't sunk deep into racism or sexism or etc in a way that was 'scientific' and can't just be blamed on, I dunno, those Damn Choristers or whatever.

 

[notanautomaton]

I meant more about how, like. What does the "Time Table" involve? If it involves Social Stuff then you'd probably have random 'scientific' goals that are absolute nonsense in the, you know. Racist, Sexist. Everything-imaginable-ist way.[1]

Admittedly, you can say, "Yep."

(It just contrasts with the MJ12/etc interpretation. But then again, that's why this whole thread was split off.)

[1] Study history if you think that the scientific mainstream wasn't sunk deep into racism or sexism or etc in a way that was 'scientific' and can't just be blamed on, I dunno, those Damn Choristers or whatever.

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It only goes up to 15 years ahead though, so it's not like it's going from the 1200s to the 3000s. Also, the people setting it understand that scientific rascism isn't real because they know that science isn't real, and some of them were alive before racism anyways.