Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

A question thats been bugging me and i hope to get an answer here.

In Worm, they do predict the future by actually doing predictive modelling, basically model someone or something and then make predictions on what said person will do or what happens next. They may also take said model and put it through simulation after simulation with various variables introduced and see whats the result.

There has been mentions of even modelling powers and the benefits that comes with that like beating your oponent who uses said power.

So my question is, what are the various ways a OMage from Mage the Ascension whether it be Technocrat or Tradition or NMage from Mage the Awakening can do to no sell this type of precog?
 
The second level of Entropy lets you control probability.

You now hold complete control over their predictions.

Use it to make them see you hitting the nerd in the goddamn face.

Entropy 2, Time 2, Correspondence 2.

"I feed you deliberately false impressions from your predictions which not only mean that your attempts to defeat me fail, but you actually help me accomplish my goal," Semi-Automatic Leopard says, and then the Parahuman special agent Wolfram Worm ends up taking the PAL key and activating Brass Cog, the bipedal nuclear missile launcher, because his predictions are all completely compromised.
 
A question thats been bugging me and i hope to get an answer here.

In Worm, they do predict the future by actually doing predictive modelling, basically model someone or something and then make predictions on what said person will do or what happens next. They may also take said model and put it through simulation after simulation with various variables introduced and see whats the result.

There has been mentions of even modelling powers and the benefits that comes with that like beating your oponent who uses said power.

So my question is, what are the various ways a OMage from Mage the Ascension whether it be Technocrat or Tradition or NMage from Mage the Awakening can do to no sell this type of precog?

Well, if we're going with Awakening I'm reasonably sure it's possible to use... mm, Forces and Fate to set up a spell that says "whenever you try to apply your precognitive modelling to me, you instead catch fire". Increase the levels of each Arcanum being applied to increase the intensity and precision of that trap.

You'd want to add Space to the spell in order to set it up without the target being in your immediate presence. If you're feeling particularly spiteful you can probably do something with Death to expand it to "you burn to death, then rise as a ghost and keep burning."
 
The second level of Entropy lets you control probability.

You now hold complete control over their predictions.

Use it to make them see you hitting the nerd in the goddamn face.

Another funny thing you could do is just like, do the Thing with Spirit 1/Corr 2/Time 1

They can see visions of the future perfectly

Except they only see visions of what the future looks like in the Umbra
 
Well, if we're going with Awakening I'm reasonably sure it's possible to use... mm, Forces and Fate to set up a spell that says "whenever you try to apply your precognitive modelling to me, you instead catch fire". Increase the levels of each Arcanum being applied to increase the intensity and precision of that trap.

You'd want to add Space to the spell in order to set it up without the target being in your immediate presence. If you're feeling particularly spiteful you can probably do something with Death to expand it to "you burn to death, then rise as a ghost and keep burning."
I think, strictly speaking, if you want a curse to start on a trigger instead of ending on a trigger you also need Time 2 Hang Spell.

Regardless, a curse you cast on the precognitive is not really the same things as a ward you cast on yourself. For one thing, it only works on targets you already know about and could attack directly.
 
So, anyone know what edition I should base the spheres on for my Storypath conversion? I'm currently learning towards Revised or M20, though M20 would be heavily modified.
 
Alright, anyone want to talk in something a bit more like real time in order to help me work out some stuff?

In a more general thing, how the fuck am I supposed to balance Spheres? Every single sphere seems pretty easy to break the game if I mess up the mechanics. Unlike what Syndrome says, if everything's broken, everything's broken.

If I mess up, suddenly one or two spheres wins the game forever (Probably Time and Entropy/Fate. Possibly Correspondence, Life, Mind, Spirit, and Prime as well. This leaves the Spheres that are unlikely to win the game forever as Matter and Forces out of the main nine)
 
Alright, anyone want to talk in something a bit more like real time in order to help me work out some stuff?

In a more general thing, how the fuck am I supposed to balance Spheres? Every single sphere seems pretty easy to break the game if I mess up the mechanics. Unlike what Syndrome says, if everything's broken, everything's broken.

If I mess up, suddenly one or two spheres wins the game forever (Probably Time and Entropy/Fate. Possibly Correspondence, Life, Mind, Spirit, and Prime as well. This leaves the Spheres that are unlikely to win the game forever as Matter and Forces out of the main nine)
Not real time but here's a response from someone who's GMed Mage.
1) It's harder to do things that are vulgar, and failing them backfires hard. This applies to a lot of powerful effects, like throwing fireballs or turning into a tiger.
2) Mages cannot do anything that their spheres can. Mages are limited by their paradigm. A Chorister may not be able to pause or rewind time, because that's not really something miracles tend to be able to do.
3) This is more of a synthesis of the previous two. Most broad paradigms (such as Virtual Adept reality Hackers, and Hermetic Wizards) tend to be more vulgar (at least in regards to powerful effects). Throwing fireballs, is way more obvious than causing an electrical short and editing a chair into reality is much less believable than ordering it on Amazon same hour shipping.
4) This is the obvious one, but it bears to be said. The powerful effects tend to be at high sphere levels.
5) This is something I've always found incredibly important, though it's more in the lore than in the rules. To get a higher level of a sphere, a mage needs to have a Seeking. A Seeking challenges the way that a character sees the world (essentially creating a cognitive dissonance) how the player/character resolves this challenge determines if they advance. Characters with an all encompassing paradigm find it hard to be challenged and so have trouble in advancing in Arete/Enlightenment.
5.5) Mages with more limited paradigms are more easily challenged and so are more prone to Seekings that challenge those views, forcing them to revise them. Arete 6 is very hard for a mage to break without a serious challenge to their paradigm, and that's hard to happen if your paradigm can explain and allow everything.

The most important one here is really #2. Paradigms have limits. Spheres are rough mechanical approximations we use because creating new spheres for every possible paradigm is too much work. Spheres are just words that the Order of Hermes made up back when they needed common terms to talk about things. Everything that Entropy does could be done with Forces, Matter, and Life. Entropy is there because those effects are often grouped together in paradigms. Akashics generally don't have force-fields, Hermetics generally transform themselves or super punch, Verbena don't fire lasers, etc. Every paradigm has things it's very good at, and things it has trouble doing. That's why the Dark Ages: Mage Paths didn't generally cover everything. Often there were things left out based on the Paradigm. The sphere system is free-form because the limits are supposed to be self imposed and it'd be too much work do create separate spheres for everyone (and that still wouldn't be able to cover the full breadth of character concepts).
 
1) It's harder to do things that are vulgar, and failing them backfires hard. This applies to a lot of powerful effects, like throwing fireballs or turning into a tiger.

Both of those effects are worse than just adding a shitload of damage to a gun though.

In a more general thing, how the fuck am I supposed to balance Spheres? Every single sphere seems pretty easy to break the game if I mess up the mechanics. Unlike what Syndrome says, if everything's broken, everything's broken.

Just use Awakening's mechanics and accept that the Spheres are pretty much inherently unbalanced. You're not going to balance them without way, way more work than it's worth.
 
Alright, anyone want to talk in something a bit more like real time in order to help me work out some stuff?

In a more general thing, how the fuck am I supposed to balance Spheres? Every single sphere seems pretty easy to break the game if I mess up the mechanics. Unlike what Syndrome says, if everything's broken, everything's broken.

If I mess up, suddenly one or two spheres wins the game forever (Probably Time and Entropy/Fate. Possibly Correspondence, Life, Mind, Spirit, and Prime as well. This leaves the Spheres that are unlikely to win the game forever as Matter and Forces out of the main nine)
Freeform magic is inherently incredibly powerful. My solution was to permit strong passive defenses and turn fights into a Nasu-like battle of compatibility and focus-denial rather than straight roll-offs.
 
Indeed. That's why they're part of the Traditions/Technocracy: their seniors can be watching their back. Presumably the PCs will owe them a favor or two, which will encourage them not to depend on it, but it's useful for training wheels.
Yeah but isn't that a lot less applicable in the post avatar storm world where most of the masters have been killed/turned into a evil space ghost?
 
Yeah but isn't that a lot less applicable in the post avatar storm world where most of the masters have been killed/turned into a evil space ghost?
Not really. You'll still have E5 seniors to your party that have been around for a century, even if all the really old masters are gone. By the time you're at the point where all your superiors are space ghosts, you should really have enough experience under your belt to not get chumped (and kinda deserve it if you do...)
 
1) It's harder to do things that are vulgar, and failing them backfires hard. This applies to a lot of powerful effects, like throwing fireballs or turning into a tiger.
Both of those effects are worse than just adding a shitload of damage to a gun though.

Are they though? Let's say I want to throw a fireball. Fireball is Forces 3 Prime 2 (to create fire out of pure energy). I'm throwing it at a Syndicate Enforcer leading a squad of gangsters. This counts as Vulgar with witnesses because gangsters don't believe in magic. The difficulty is highest sphere +5. It nets out to Difficulty 8 with 3 dice, not the best odds. But that's ok, you might say. Every success on a forces attack leads to 2 points of damage, and every forces attack also gives you one extra damage. So if I succeed on all 3, I'm doing 7 damage. If I succeed on only 2 I do 5 damage. If I succeed on only 1 I still do 3 damage. If you succeed you take 4 points of paradox (one per highest sphere level for vulgar effects +1 for witnesses). If you botch you receive 8 points of paradox (2 points of paradox + 2 points per dot in highest sphere). And if you fail but don't botch you still take 4 for trying something vulgar with witnesses. So you're rolling against difficulty 8 with the best result being 7 damage to the enemy and 4 paradox for you, and the worst result being 0 damage to the enemy and 8 paradox for you. In the middle you only get 5 or 3 damage, but it is aggravated (of course your opponent can still try and dodge the fireball, but then they'll be splitting dice pools).

What about turning into a tiger? Transform self is just Life 4. Still attacking the same Enforcer and his gangsters. Still Vulgar with witnesses. Difficulty=Highest Sphere+5=9. So rolling probably 4 dice (unless you are a higher arete then four, at with point you are supposed to be rare and powerful. Arete 5 costs 40 xp, Arete 6 costing 48, both of those cumulative on top of each other and the arete 4 cost of 32xp.) So you roll 4 dice against difficulty 9. Do you need a specific amount of successes to become a tiger? The rules say transforming yourself is a difficult magical feat, and so requires 3 successes. Regardless, You'll get 5 Paradox successful or not (10 if you botch). Tigers have (according to Bygone Bestiary) Claw for 6 dice, and Bite for 7.

A Heavy Revolver has 6 dice of damage. A good rifle/assault rifle will have 7-8 dice. A shotgun has 8 dice of damage. So the Enforcer is looking like he's the one better off, especially if he can get some extra damage dice through a good firearms skill or buffing the attack with his spheres somehow.

What if I want to rush him with Time 3 extra actions? This might be supposed to be vulgar, but the description doesn't say either way. However even if it's coincidental it's difficulty 6 and every extra action is two successes, plus you have to spend a success on duration. Assuming you only have 3-4 dice you're going to be spread pretty thin. You want to travel back in time to the beginning of the round to warn your buddy not to shoot a fireball because there's a tank of gasoline behind the enforcer that will bring down the building's main support, allowing the gangsters to escape? Also time 3, but the description explicitly refers to it as vulgar. That makes it difficulty 8. You need to spend a success to make it line of sight. It's likely a magical feat requiring more than one success on just the feat as well. It'd give the same paradox as the fireball, as both are vulgar with witnesses 3rd level sphere effects.

Honestly one of the better things you might do is to make a magical ban against bullets. It could be vulgar or coincidental depending on the circumstances. A force-field would be vulgar, as bullets pling off of it missing you. A prayer for protection, where the bullets simply sail by you could be coincidental. So if you're casting it as a prayer it shouldn't be that hard to protect your group from bullets with Correspondence 3 and Matter. You'd spend on the effect, area, and duration to get your whole party for the fight. But prayer is the kind of activity you can spend multiple rounds doing, so you could do it as a ritual to build successes if need be.

Honestly, minus the Correspondence wards, this looks a lot like the kinds of fights I've GMed. Except the guy who could turn into a tiger could also Time 3 extra actions, and he had help from the other party member with Time to get extra successes. It's not like such a fighting style can't work, you just need to realize that bad rolls could screw over delay the plan and that you might come out with plenty of paradox. Being coincidental is always rewarded, but if you're willing to take a chance or pay willpower and spend quintessence to tip the odds you can make a more blunt force strategy work.

Mage rewards being prepared. If you knew the fight was coming you could pre-transform and pre-slow time. If you're squeamish about transforming, or just don't have Life 4 yet, buffing your stats with Life 3 is a nice thing to do when you have time. Then there's always the good old fashioned scry and die if you have Corr and Forces, though you'll need to collect a correspondence focus first (which could be work in and of itself).

If you're really worried that someone will catch you off guard, the Order of Hermes has a rote "Parma Magica" that banks quintessence into a 'shield' which you can spend to counter magic successes against you. Other ways to stay on your guard are basic Time 2 divinations, and Correspondence warding against scrying and Bans against ranged attacks.
 
A Heavy Revolver has 6 dice of damage. A good rifle/assault rifle will have 7-8 dice. A shotgun has 8 dice of damage. So the Enforcer is looking like he's the one better off, especially if he can get some extra damage dice through a good firearms skill or buffing the attack with his spheres somehow.

That was a cool post but it kind of completely falls apart at this part. Of course he's going to buff the ever loving shit out of his gun with Forces or Entropy or Correspondence or Mind or all of them at the same time to deal a shitload of damage (Forces/Entropy) to everything in the area (Correspondence) that has hostile intent (Mind) via ricocheting the bullets*.

Like, using magic is cool and all but it's almost always worse than using magic + consensual tools in conjunction because of course it is. Tools are useful like that.

*Credit for this little trick goes entirely to Christos Barberis.
 
That was a cool post but it kind of completely falls apart at this part. Of course he's going to buff the ever loving shit out of his gun with Forces or Entropy or Correspondence or Mind or all of them at the same time to deal a shitload of damage (Forces/Entropy) to everything in the area (Correspondence) that has hostile intent (Mind) via ricocheting the bullets*.

Like, using magic is cool and all but it's almost always worse than using magic + consensual tools in conjunction because of course it is. Tools are useful like that.
I don't see how that an enforcer could do that paradrimcilly without bullets that are actually micro missiles or something to that nature, bouncing bullets sounds like RD nonsense; though you might be able to do something similar by just shooting everyone in the room using the same hostile intent reading though.
 
I don't see how that an enforcer could do that paradrimcilly without bullets that are actually micro missiles or something to that nature, bouncing bullets sounds like RD nonsense; though you might be able to do something similar by just shooting everyone in the room using the same hostile intent reading though.

Remember - "No one could bounce a bullet like that and kill two people without even seeing them" is just what people who aren't good enough with handguns say, so quoth the Enforcer and the Operative.
 
I don't see how that an enforcer could do that paradrimcilly without bullets that are actually micro missiles or something to that nature, bouncing bullets sounds like RD nonsense; though you might be able to do something similar by just shooting everyone in the room using the same hostile intent reading though.

"I am an elite ex-commando with several years of experience. I know exactly where to shoot someone to deal maximum damage, and I have the coordination and skill to place the bullet right there. Entropy 1, Forces 1, I reduce the difficulty of my firearms attack and damage rolls." He uses the time before the fight to prepare the same way the other guy does and spends, say, 11 successes on that: 3 on reducing firearms attack diffs, 6 on reducing damage diffs, and 2 on making the buff last for a scene. Assuming he has WP8 and is a starting character, he still has 13 successes to blow on defensive effects.

And suddenly the Enforcer with Dex 4, Firearms 3 is rolling 7d at difficulty 3 to hit, making a called shot to the eyes or the gap between ribs (+3 diff, +4 damage) to deal 11L damage at difficulty 3, basically allowing him to mow down even werewolves with relative ease if they don't dodge. He'll roll ~5 average successes on his original roll, adding +4 damage, and then roll ~11 HLs of damage on average, which means a werewolf with Stamina 6 will still go from healthy to 'dead' in an instant on an average soak roll and be forced to rage through the fatal wound.

Low-sphere buffs to mundane attacks are horrifyingly effective.
 
The issue with this is that if a party lacks a particular defense, they get curbstomped.

I would do what nWoD does and just say that simply because Mages are possessed of incredible self-belief, they are categorically and passively much more resistant to magic than Sleepers. Sleepers are required to 'go with the flow'-they can punish a person for changing the flow, but they can't buck it. If a Mage tells them 'fuck you reality works like this now' they can go 'no I hate you' but they have to listen to it.

So I'd give most mages 'passive' countermagic in the sense that scrying on mages and whatnot is harder, even if they don't have a single dot of Correspondence. A NWO operative can take a look at a cell of sleeper terrorists, and trivially disassemble or subvert the cell.

Mages simply speaking should be more aware of magic happening to them (e.g. being scryed directly rather than caught in an incidental dragnet) and more resistant to magic happening to them. Incidentally this allows you to boost the lethality of underperforming direct damage spells while not making mage combat even more eggshells-with-sledgehammers.
 
I would do what nWoD does and just say that simply because Mages are possessed of incredible self-belief, they are categorically and passively much more resistant to magic than Sleepers. Sleepers are required to 'go with the flow'-they can punish a person for changing the flow, but they can't buck it. If a Mage tells them 'fuck you reality works like this now' they can go 'no I hate you' but they have to listen to it.

So I'd give most mages 'passive' countermagic in the sense that scrying on mages and whatnot is harder, even if they don't have a single dot of Correspondence. A NWO operative can take a look at a cell of sleeper terrorists, and trivially disassemble or subvert the cell.

Mages simply speaking should be more aware of magic happening to them (e.g. being scryed directly rather than caught in an incidental dragnet) and more resistant to magic happening to them. Incidentally this allows you to boost the lethality of underperforming direct damage spells while not making mage combat even more eggshells-with-sledgehammers.
Thanks, that's actually really helpful. (Not to be down on anyone else who replied, I just don't find your solutions appealing game design).
 
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