Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

Cheers for all the feedback, folks. It's been very useful, and I've added a few more pieces to my notes as a result.

Hmm. Is there anything that describes what triggers a moment of awakening as a Mage, or what it's like? I've been assuming a classic 'moment of sudden epiphany' for most of these potential characters, mixed up as appropriate depending on individual experience and personality, but if there's a better guide anywhere that would be pretty good too.

I... do have the M20 core book, but consulting that byzantine tome for any kind of setting lore is basically a guaranteed headache in my experience...
 
Cheers for all the feedback, folks. It's been very useful, and I've added a few more pieces to my notes as a result.

Hmm. Is there anything that describes what triggers a moment of awakening as a Mage, or what it's like? I've been assuming a classic 'moment of sudden epiphany' for most of these potential characters, mixed up as appropriate depending on individual experience and personality, but if there's a better guide anywhere that would be pretty good too.

I... do have the M20 core book, but consulting that byzantine tome for any kind of setting lore is basically a guaranteed headache in my experience...

It isn't presented in one consistent way through the line. Moment of epiphany work for most, but some just gradually learn how to do new things without there ever being a firm line between 'this is when you were a sleeper' and 'this is when you became a mage.' That's somewhat more common with sorcerers, where they even have a merit representing the idea where they're slowly awakening, though mechanically that worked more like stress based wild magic.
 
Cheers for all the feedback, folks. It's been very useful, and I've added a few more pieces to my notes as a result.

Hmm. Is there anything that describes what triggers a moment of awakening as a Mage, or what it's like? I've been assuming a classic 'moment of sudden epiphany' for most of these potential characters, mixed up as appropriate depending on individual experience and personality, but if there's a better guide anywhere that would be pretty good too.

I... do have the M20 core book, but consulting that byzantine tome for any kind of setting lore is basically a guaranteed headache in my experience...
There are also books (and other media) that can reliably awaken people.
 
Hmm. Is there anything that describes what triggers a moment of awakening as a Mage, or what it's like? I've been assuming a classic 'moment of sudden epiphany' for most of these potential characters, mixed up as appropriate depending on individual experience and personality, but if there's a better guide anywhere that would be pretty good too.
Epiphanies are actually not a bad model for awakening, but you have to remember how epiphanies actually work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling) said:
Epiphanies are relatively rare occurrences and generally follow a process of significant thought about a problem. Often they are triggered by a new and key piece of information, but importantly, a depth of prior knowledge is required to allow the leap of understanding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling) said:
Despite this popular image, epiphany is the result of significant work on the part of the discoverer, and is only the satisfying result of a long process.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling) said:
epiphanies are only a rare occurrence, crowning a process of significant labor

Epiphanies may be sudden, but prior steps have laid the groundwork for that sudden leap forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling) said:
allegedly Albert Einstein was struck as a young child by being given a compass, and realizing that some unseen force in space was making it move. Another, perhaps better, example from Einstein's life occurred in 1905 after he had spent an evening unsuccessfully trying to reconcile Newtonian physics and Maxwell's equations. While taking a streetcar home, he looked behind him at the receding clocktower in Bern and realized that if the car sped up close to the speed of light, he would see the clock slow down; with this thought, he later remarked, "a storm broke loose in my mind," which would allow him to understand special relativity. Einstein had a second epiphany two years later in 1907 which he called "the happiest thought of my life" when he imagined an elevator falling, and realized that a passenger would not be able to tell the difference between the weightlessness of falling, and the weightlessness of space - a thought which allowed him to generalize his theory of relativity to include gravity as a curvature in spacetime. A similar flash of holistic understanding in a prepared mind was said to give Charles Darwin his "hunch" (about natural selection), and Darwin later stated that he always remembered the spot in the road where his carriage was when the epiphany struck. Another famous epiphany myth is associated with Isaac Newton's apple story,[4]​ and yet another with Nikola Tesla's discovery of a workable alternating current induction motor. Though such epiphanies might have occurred, they were almost certainly the result of long and intensive periods of study those individuals had undertaken, rather than an out-of-the-blue flash of inspiration about an issue they had not thought about previously.[6]​[7]

As the famous examples show, an epiphany generally happens when a person who has been thinking about something for a while receives new information, or has an experience that makes them think about a problem in a completely different way. You can't have an epiphany (or an awakening) without some level of groundwork. The kindling of the background knowledge and work is set off by the new experience or information.

There are also books (and other media) that can reliably awaken people.
notanautomaton brings up Primers, books that awaken young mages to arete 1. To write a Primer you have to have arete 5 or more.
Forged by Dragon's Fire Page 71 said:
The mage must think back, remember what it was like not to know what he knows now and to make the knowledge as palatable as possible to an unAwakened reader.
Primers often have prerequisites for them to work. You sometimes need background knowledge to understand what they are saying.

Forged by Dragon's Fire Page 73 said:
A reader may at first have problems with some of Melanippe's leaps of logic, but it is precisely in these leaps of logic that wisdom occurs. Melanippe gives the reader just enough direction to determine where she's going with her thinking, but then lets the reader do the actual work. These "gaps" get wider and wider as the dithyramb goes on until the last one leaves the reader hanging, and the only resolution is to come to the same realizations Melanippe herself came to nearly three millennia ago resulting in an increased Arete.
This description is for a regular grimoire (increases arete rather than giving you your first dot), rather than a primer, but is still enlightening as to how the books work. The Primer has to give you all of the groundwork for the conclusion, but you have to reach it by yourself. Everything else is just a set up for the final epiphany. You also have to engage with the text.
Forged by Dragon's Fire Page 68 said:
The Sleeper must be of above-average intellect and willing (even subconsciously) to open his mind to new ways of perceiving the world. If the sleeper reads the entire Primer and makes an active attempt to understand the contents, he will most likely awaken.

Awakenings don't just happen. Even seeing the supernatural isn't really enough.
The vast, vast majority of awakenings come from institutionalized teaching. The number of mages who awaken from witnessing the supernatural is exactly as high, proportionally, as the number of werewolves who undergo their First Change after being bitten by a werewolf. That is to say, 'there is no meaningful difference.' The Taftani are not correct. Throwing around vulgar magic does not, in fact, Awaken people. The way you Awaken people is with education and patience and 'exposure to the supernatural' that goes far beyond mere witnessing but actively broadens people's horizons. A Ecstatic takes his or her groupies into the Umbra so they can have an orgy with lust-spirits. The academies on Doisstep taught young students linear sorcery and then showed them the older, Awakened students and the wonders they could accomplish, as well as surrounding them with wonders of every shape and form as inspiration.

Damien, Unity, and MIHT do the exact same. They surround their students with hypertech and high-end Enlightened Science so their horizons are broadened, they teach the theory and practice behind them to do the same. Awakenings are an epiphany that results when you realize that reality can be changed in ways far beyond what you believed possible before. Watching two people throw around fireballs doesn't do that when you don't believe it by definition.
Awakening is a process punctuated by a final moment of epiphany.

Here are some examples:
We can, in fact, examine our decidedly-abnormal party here and still find similar patterns;

Illiyeen because she is disgustingly self-reliant managed to essentially put herself through a basic spy training course through careful, measured observation of patterns of behaviour, deliberately expanding her horizons and teaching herself French so she could listen in people's conversations, and months of watching, waiting and learning all in pursuit of the truth.
Serafina, amusingly enough, despite being the only party member who's gone through the ludicrously expensive Damien education did not Awaken thanks to the countless Primers and teaching she was exposed to, but did it during the school holidays because she was a desperately lonely little girl who really wanted a friend and to get to do things with her parents.
Elsa followed an entirely typical Virtual Adept path to Awakening - joins as an outcast (Russia not exactly being entirely tolerant of her sexuality) who hangs around the cyberpunks, trains as a consor and linear sorcerer hacker, Awakens after years of training.

So, if you want someone to awaken as a Verbena, think of the process that led them to that epiphany. Do not neglect that prior groundwork. Here's an example of a Verbena awakening:

There is a boy. simultaneously bookish and fond of the outdoors. He's read a lot of fantasy. He got started with more modern urban stuff, but he ended up finding his way to the classics. He looked deeper into mythology after some well known book caught his interest. On top of all of this, he loves camping. His parents have fostered in him as much of a love of the outdoors as his love of books. His mother has a garden in their backyard that she grows flowers and produce in. She sings to the plants and he helps out with the work. He knows about plants and animals.
One day he's out camping with the Boy Scouts. He gets separated from the rest of the group. Maybe it was to use the restroom. Maybe he saw something cool and followed it. Whatever the case is, he is alone in nature. Nature is beautiful, but it is also harsh. He has to use what he knows to survive. His knowledge of plants and animals is tested. He ends up talking to himself, as most would when stranded without others. He talks to his surroundings. The trees and squirrels are his conversation partners. They seem to almost listen. He has a dog, which has always seemed to listen as well. His father always said animals are smarter than people think they are.
The boy works with nature, and nature works with him. He survives. He sees the untaped beauty of nature untouched and tamed by human hands, and he sees the seemingly malicious whims of weather. He starts talking about the weather in ways that anthropomorphize it's actions. By the time someone finds him he seems to live with nature. Even when back at home he still looks at the world changed by his time out in the wild. What happened to him then helps him to understand the world better. He has some superstitions from his time in the wild. Things that he's found seem to work for him. Ways to read weather and animals, to predict their actions. Ways to tell where he is by looking at his surroundings.
He wouldn't necessarily describe the weather, the animals, and plants as speaking to him, but he pays attention to what they say. They seem to listen back in return. He finds that if he takes care of things, they have a way of repaying him. Like some fairies out of a faerie tale. Favors repaid in kind. He understands his dog better now. He knows its instincts. He knows how to make other dogs respond as well. He can put himself in its mentality, see what it sees, almost smell what it smells.
He learns that humans too are a kind of animal. That they often have instincts they don't fully understand. People can be pushed. Our instincts act as levers. There are things we don't see, or take notice of. Things we don't consciously notice shape our actions. In the end we are not as above animals as we like to think we are. There are things we can learn from the animals.

That's basically an Awakening, the groundwork behind it, and the aftermath. Things blend into each other. There's not always a clear cut off. It's clear that being in the forest alone changed his thinking, but not clear exactly where. His prior beliefs played a role. It didn't just end at the Awakening. It's an ongoing process.
 
If mages are basically supposed "great men" as exemplars of an ideology; what's with the canon's wish washyness of insisting a lot of prominent historical figures were sleepers; especially in the case of founders of major religions is something I've noticed as a big example.
 
He's also important because his actions are what convinced the rest of the Traditions that the Sons of Ether were serious in their defection, and what made it impossible for them to shift gears and go back to the Technocratic Union.
Yes, though I don't think any normal person who see's democracy and freedom as a good thing would like what the guy did, he tried to take over the world because he is better then you.

They would still think he is awesome though.

The common thread we can identify with Archmasters - every single one - is that they haven't really stayed behind to help people, Porthos Fitz-Empress and Senex maybe, but regardless the thing about Archmastery is that it's giving you a lot of power, you'll be respected and feared and have the ability to shape the world as you see fit. A Technocratic Archscientist is on a high-flying career to "whatever I want", a Traditionalist Archmaster is a name spoken with reverence, even among the Union.

And it means nothing.

Ultimately, as @FBH and @TheLastOne have insisted quite a lot, Mage is a gnostic game, and securing all the power in the world to rule over a lie is still a whole lot of power over nothing. Sure, you can move planets and destroy souls but what does that matter? The Real Ultimate Power in mage lies not in sitting on power unimaginable but in realizing that everything is true and ascending from the shackles of the consensus and achieving whatever Ascension even is.
One of the issues with this is that what the hell is Ascension anyway? What gain is there to ascend? At least with Wraith, Ascension meant leaving that hellhole and finding peace. Which to me explains why some archmages don't go further cause maybe they are afraid or see that what they have is good enough.
 
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Okay, probably dumb setting question, but with the older Mage stuff and the consensus reality mechanics, how far can a normal person influence that?

Like, would changing your name, faking your death and moving around have any material effect on reality? Could you lie about your past until enough people know and believe the lie that it's true?

Short answer, no.

Long answer, remember that the normal person themselves enforces consensus on everything they themselves do, and more importantly is an observer who has access to their very thoughts. The normal person doesn't really believe that changing their name changes who they are, so it doesn't. If you believed so you would probably be a mage, or at least a linear sorcerer.

Guide to the Traditions goes into the question 'why do mages sometimes take paradox for Coincidental magic' and the answer to that question is because even Mages sometimes just... don't believe in what they're doing enough, and that causes spells to fizzle and paradox to take notice.
 
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I have a question; Does Horizon move? I mean a sleeper made probe just left the solar system which begs to the question about it.

I mean Deep umbra is always confusing to me so I don't really get it.
 
I have a question; Does Horizon move? I mean a sleeper made probe just left the solar system which begs to the question about it.

I mean Deep umbra is always confusing to me so I don't really get it.

Remember, in Mage the Void Engineers own NASA and the entire convention is built up of conspiracy theories about the military-industrial-aerospace industry. The entire space programme on both sides was run by the Technocracy. They didn't fake the moon landing, but that's because they already had multiple moonbases.
 
So, if one were to run Mage: The Ascension without the bleak post-modernist stuff associated with it (particularly in Revised and M20), how would one go about it?

I personally like the idea of Mage as a pulp action-adventure game of modern magic and wonder, and I'm all for crossovers. There is a World of Darkness parody fan-game from the late 1990's/early 2000's titled Senshi: The Merchandising that incorporates a lot of 90's anime into WoD (most notably Sailor Moon) and it is heavily tied into Mage: The Ascension's setting assumptions (at least 1e and 2e's assumptions. No reference to the Avatar Storm or any other metaplot shenanigans can be found in Senshi as far as I can tell). Even though the game is unofficial and fairly tongue-in-cheek, the rules are fairly functional and I consider it part of my personal WoD head-canon.

The rules and materials for Senshi: The Merchandising are linked below.

Senshi: The Merchandising Revised Edition
Cliquebook: Sailor Warriors
Cliquebook: Magical Knights of Arcadia

Does anybody else ever tweak the canon of Mage: The Ascension or include crossovers? I mean, there's nothing wrong with Post-Modernism, but there's also nothing wrong with anime-influenced Pulp Action-Adventure either.

I personally like the idea of a crossover game that is Mage-centric, where the focus is on the Mages, but they can also have allies such as Vampires, Werewolves, Changelings, Mortals, or Senshi for those who wish to play a non-Awakened. The main focus would be on the Council of Nine Traditions and the Hollow Ones. I would not use the metaplot, and any material introduced in Revised or M20 would be declared non-canon. But that's just me.

You can do your crossover Mage games anyway you want.

(In my games, Kindred of the East and Demon: The Fallen are declared non-canon, so no Kuei-Jin or Fallen)
 
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Remember, in Mage the Void Engineers own NASA and the entire convention is built up of conspiracy theories about the military-industrial-aerospace industry. The entire space programme on both sides was run by the Technocracy. They didn't fake the moon landing, but that's because they already had multiple moonbases.
Doesn't change the fact that there is a probe past the alleged Horizon. VEs must think it is safe for masses to get there so question remains. Does the Horizon move?
 
I adore MtA magical system, though, both Ascension and Awakening. I also like Paradigm, Paradox, and so on. I wonder if it's possible to substitute the fluff to be less, well, post-Modernist? I like 'em, of course, but I'm worried running them will cause my table to burst into fire.
 
I adore MtA magical system, though, both Ascension and Awakening. I also like Paradigm, Paradox, and so on. I wonder if it's possible to substitute the fluff to be less, well, post-Modernist? I like 'em, of course, but I'm worried running them will cause my table to burst into fire.
Don't worry, MtAs was designed specifically to prevent players from accidentally casting spells IRL.
 
I adore MtA magical system, though, both Ascension and Awakening. I also like Paradigm, Paradox, and so on. I wonder if it's possible to substitute the fluff to be less, well, post-Modernist? I like 'em, of course, but I'm worried running them will cause my table to burst into fire.

M:tAwk isn't post-modernist - not at all. It's also mechanically superior to oMage, so, you know, win-win.

(nMage is my gnostic horror sweetheart, but you can also just play it as pulp adventurer-wizards looking for lost tombs of the Atlanteans. I just prefer the game with Intruders, Seers, and all that good stuff)
 
Play the Dresden Files RPG or some other urban fantasy game, because oMage without the "bleak post-modernist stuff" is like playing Vampire: the Masquerade with neither vampires nor a masquerade.

I don't like The Dresden Files and I will NOT play "Some Other Game". I'm getting tired of that rhetoric.

My Mage games aren't any less valid than yours are. Just because you don't like my style doesn't mean I'm wrong for liking it or that I'm playing the game wrong.
 
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