TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
It really really is.
Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.
- Thread starter TheLastOne
- Start date
It really really is.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
Alright, keep in mind that a fair bit of this is headcanon.
So, prior to the Avatar Storm, the Technocracy and the Traditions were at parity in Space/the Spirit world/whatever. The Traditions had more Mages, and more Old Masters, which let them create more mages through tutelage. However, the Technocracy had more resources (from dominating Earth) and more Sorcerers (from having the most comprehensive education system for producing them). On paper, this kept things at parity. This lead to a change in the Technocracy's deployment doctrine; actual Mages were kept in leadership roles, away from the fighting, while sorcerers and people without any magic/Enlightened Science were put on the frontlines of the Ascension war. While this lead to the Traditions being able to easily defeat most of what the Technocracy could throw at them, they were being slowly ground down by attrition.
Then the Avatar Storm happened.
With the loss of Space, the Technocracy could suddenly dominate the Traditions, as the Traditions had fallen to rough parity with the Technocracy in Mages. However, the Technocracy had a lot of fires to put out, and very little time, leading to them declaring victory over the Traditions and just trying to ignore them.
TLDR: The Technocracy used to have rough parity with the Traditions, due to Space, and now both have lost space, leading to the Technocracy being able to dominate the Traditions, but not the Traditions and everyone else.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Yeah. It's important to remember that it's harder to gain high levels of enlightenment as a technocrat. This is somewhat poorly mechanically represented - it's why 'normal' mages drop foci faster. That's a problematic way of representing it, since it made paradigm a bit to shallow. I've played with other ways of representing it.
But the Traditions were suppose to own the old masters crowd, and out beyond the Umbra the old masters were scary. The Ascension War wasn't a cold war, it was a slow burn.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
I personally say that reaching Enlightenment 5 has the same rates for Technocracts, it's just that they have fewer mages in general, so they have fewer Enlightenment 5's. For Arete 6+'s... for my personal setting I do away with the whole 'the Traditions don't actually believe in what they say they do' thing, so they don't have massive numbers of Arete 6+'s. However, they do have more, as the Traditions are much more accepting of alternate viewpoints than the Technocracy.
Instead, I've been toying with an alternate path beyond Arete 5, in which you double down on your paradigm. Instead of realizing that nothing is true, you focus in on one thing. A ItXer becomes entirely transhuman, and refuses to admit that even NWO and Progenitor techniques have merit. A Chorister becomes an actual factual angel, and becomes unable to perform sinful acts (for certain definitions of sinful). This has entirely purposeful similarities to the Void Adaption that was expanded on in Void Engineers Revised. (The 'Paradigm stat' that I've been toying with has some relations to this, as well as my take on Marauders. However, I'm not sure how to fit them together).
The Traditions still owned the Old Masters (until the Avatar Storm), it's just that it's because they're drawing from the entire world rather than a subset of Europe (and to a lesser extent later on, North America and Asia). The problem was that their permadox left them stuck in the Umbra, only showing up on Earth when it's really important (with massive resource expenditures to negate paradox). Instead they mostly spent their time leading the Traditions and training new Mages, since they were pretty risk adverse, and a direct assault on Technocracy space assets was risky even for them.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
My solution was a bit different - I replaced 'simple' foci with more 'advanced' ones that you could sink experience in to make better, but if you sink to much in your seekings get harder and harder. Then I made it a lot easier for technocrats to get tutoring experience for foci.
Basically the whole technocratic approach is about finding the tool or technique to 'solve' a problem, for any number of meaning of 'solve.' They built entire industrial chains for manufacturing solutions. But that's opposite of the personal journey to enlightenment you're suppose to be on. The more invested you get in your tools, the more you invest in their importance, the harder it becomes to set them aside and look beyond.
And while the Union was King here, the Order of Hermes and the Virtual Adapts were only a few steps behind.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
I dislike making Seekings prior to Arete 6 special in that way, as I feel that like Arete 1, Arete 6 should be a major hurdle (to a lesser extent Arete 7-10 should be as well). But while it's not the way I'd do things, I respect that your way has value.
Also, the Book of Secrets is coming out tomorrow. Someone make sure to get it to tell me how shit it is.
Why would the Traditions have more mages then the Technocracy? The Technocracy should be able to leverage their surveillance infrastructure to easily scout for potential mages much more easily then the Traditions can, and just wack them with a ton of conditioning if their paradigms aren't within the technnoparadrim.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
There are two things that you're missing.
1. The Traditions had infrastructure too. While they had less of it, they needed less of it due to their Old Masters being more active than Control. You don't need a worldwide monitoring system when you've got a crystal ball, or can ask angels, or whatever.
2. The Technocracy really only controled Europe, North America, and Australia (and Australia's tiny compared to the other two). Their omniscient surveillance infrastructure has little penetration in Africa, the Middle East, and India, is patchwork in Asia (Heavy in China, Japan, Korea, and Singapore, light in the rest of it), and is light in Latin America. Of course, things are and have changed, but I'm primarily talking about the 90's here.
Rebuild of the Traditions
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
The Traditions were formed in the early Renaissance in response to the rising power of the Order of Reason. The Houses of the Order of Hermes were the primary impetus behind it, and were soon joined by the Choir Celeste and the Solificati. These three agreed to seek out other mystics across the world in order to unify against the Technocracy. They also decided that each major tradition would have a seat, based on the Hermetic Sphere system. The Hermetics took Forces, the Choir Celeste Prime, and the Solificati Matter.
However, their further expansion hit a snag in that few traditions were both as unified or as willing to join as them. While the European pagans were willing to join, they were not unified, resulting in them being lumped together as Verbenae under the powerful Nightshade. Likewise, most non-Europeans were lumped together as Dreamspeakers, which caused many of the more proud orders to leave in disgust. Other groups formed along other lines, with only the Al-i-Batin joining as an actual organization.
This grouping was able to persist through the political acumen of ancient mages, which resulted in the Nine Seats crumbling due to the Avatar Storm and the cessation of the Pogrom. No more were Christian and Jewish mages content to serve in the universalist order of the Celestial Choir. No more were pagans and shamans and death-cultists content to be lumped together. Many groups have fractured, driven by the dual forces of the Avatar Storm and the cessation of the Ascension War.
This resulted in the Nine Seats being dissolved and replaced with a council. On the Council each tradition has a spokesperson with a number of votes proportional to the power of their tradition. Almost needless to say, these changes have resulted in even more infighting, as groups that don't play well with others suddenly have political power. In addition, The Rogue Council constantly tempts more radical mages into their ranks, thought they have yet to fully convert a Tradition.
The Order of Hermes
The Order of Hermes is currently the most powerful of the Traditions due to their united 'foreign policy.' While the houses disagree internally, they typically attempt to put up a united front. This is because unlike other Traditions, they refused to allow other factions to join them without a long vetting process and compatibility with their magic. Additionally, they are among the best of the non-technologist factions at teaching their magic to individuals that aren't already Awakened.
They are divided into houses, each of which focuses on a different aspect of magic, giving them diverse options within their Tradition
The Celestial Choir
The Celestial Choir originated as a heretical sect of Christianity, which claimed to speak for all religious mages. Due to having a number of powerful Masters they were able to get away with this for hundreds of years. While Jewish, Muslim, and Christian mages were allowed under the aegis of the Choir, they were effectively second-class citizens.
However, after the turn of the millennium, many of these groups declared their independence, largely on existing religious lines. The remaining Choir is much reduced, though it still has a great amount of power. It often feuds with other monotheistic Traditions over recruits.
The Verbena
The Verbena are divided into three main groups. The Old Guard are old style witches. Their magic is often bloody and rather dark. They have lost a great deal of their political power recently due to loosing their old Masters. The New Agers are the opposite of them, and typically use herbal remedies, crystals, and homeopathy in order to perform magic. They tend to hate each other.
The third group is actually several groups; the European Pagans. Each subgroup worships a different pantheon of gods, or the same pantheon in a different way. They have split from the mainstream Verbena due to not really fitting in with the less religious group.
The Euthanatos
The Euthanatos death cults are descended from a number of old orders, including Celtic worshipers of the Morrigan, Greek Hades worshipers, African mages that put spirits to rest, Islamic assassins, and, primarily, an Indian cult of assassins. However, each group believes that some people need to die, and they found common cause with that.
They have not splintered much, though a group of cybernetic ninja have decided to go their own way, and the groups have drifted apart slightly.
The Dreamspeakers
The Dreamspeakers used to encompass almost all non-European mages, and have accordingly splintered massively. While many of the tribal shamans have remained for political reasons, most of the groups have chosen to depart. The schismed groups include Aztecs, Incans, Shinto exorcists and shrine tenders, and the False Face Society.
The Akashic Brotherhood
While the mainstream Akashic Brotherhood is mostly unchanged, they have lost some of their affiliated groups. For instance, an order of Samurai and an order of sumo wrestlers have left the Brotherhood.
In the more mainstream group, they are divided between those that favor internal enlightenment and those that favor external martial arts, though this is mainly an internal issue and has not yet resulted in a full schism.
The Cult of Ecstasy
(Learn more about Indian mysticism and insert it here)
The Sons of Ether
The Sons are divided into three main groups; the mechanics the scientists, and the adventurers. The scientists care deeply about their theories, while the mechanics don't really care what they use so long as it works. On the other hand, the adventurers focus on 'using' rather than 'making.' The other main groups are the Technocratic Defectors, who are Technocrats that have decided to go another way, and the Shadow Ministry, who are the spies and social scientists of the Etherites.
They are still quite unified, giving them a great deal of political power.
The Virtual Adepts
While the Virtual Adepts are nominally unified, each individual is so egotistical that you wouldn't think that they are. Getting them to actually work together is like herding cats, and is only that easy if you're a notable figure, like Dante.
However, their further expansion hit a snag in that few traditions were both as unified or as willing to join as them. While the European pagans were willing to join, they were not unified, resulting in them being lumped together as Verbenae under the powerful Nightshade. Likewise, most non-Europeans were lumped together as Dreamspeakers, which caused many of the more proud orders to leave in disgust. Other groups formed along other lines, with only the Al-i-Batin joining as an actual organization.
This grouping was able to persist through the political acumen of ancient mages, which resulted in the Nine Seats crumbling due to the Avatar Storm and the cessation of the Pogrom. No more were Christian and Jewish mages content to serve in the universalist order of the Celestial Choir. No more were pagans and shamans and death-cultists content to be lumped together. Many groups have fractured, driven by the dual forces of the Avatar Storm and the cessation of the Ascension War.
This resulted in the Nine Seats being dissolved and replaced with a council. On the Council each tradition has a spokesperson with a number of votes proportional to the power of their tradition. Almost needless to say, these changes have resulted in even more infighting, as groups that don't play well with others suddenly have political power. In addition, The Rogue Council constantly tempts more radical mages into their ranks, thought they have yet to fully convert a Tradition.
The Order of Hermes
The Order of Hermes is currently the most powerful of the Traditions due to their united 'foreign policy.' While the houses disagree internally, they typically attempt to put up a united front. This is because unlike other Traditions, they refused to allow other factions to join them without a long vetting process and compatibility with their magic. Additionally, they are among the best of the non-technologist factions at teaching their magic to individuals that aren't already Awakened.
They are divided into houses, each of which focuses on a different aspect of magic, giving them diverse options within their Tradition
The Celestial Choir
The Celestial Choir originated as a heretical sect of Christianity, which claimed to speak for all religious mages. Due to having a number of powerful Masters they were able to get away with this for hundreds of years. While Jewish, Muslim, and Christian mages were allowed under the aegis of the Choir, they were effectively second-class citizens.
However, after the turn of the millennium, many of these groups declared their independence, largely on existing religious lines. The remaining Choir is much reduced, though it still has a great amount of power. It often feuds with other monotheistic Traditions over recruits.
The Verbena
The Verbena are divided into three main groups. The Old Guard are old style witches. Their magic is often bloody and rather dark. They have lost a great deal of their political power recently due to loosing their old Masters. The New Agers are the opposite of them, and typically use herbal remedies, crystals, and homeopathy in order to perform magic. They tend to hate each other.
The third group is actually several groups; the European Pagans. Each subgroup worships a different pantheon of gods, or the same pantheon in a different way. They have split from the mainstream Verbena due to not really fitting in with the less religious group.
The Euthanatos
The Euthanatos death cults are descended from a number of old orders, including Celtic worshipers of the Morrigan, Greek Hades worshipers, African mages that put spirits to rest, Islamic assassins, and, primarily, an Indian cult of assassins. However, each group believes that some people need to die, and they found common cause with that.
They have not splintered much, though a group of cybernetic ninja have decided to go their own way, and the groups have drifted apart slightly.
The Dreamspeakers
The Dreamspeakers used to encompass almost all non-European mages, and have accordingly splintered massively. While many of the tribal shamans have remained for political reasons, most of the groups have chosen to depart. The schismed groups include Aztecs, Incans, Shinto exorcists and shrine tenders, and the False Face Society.
The Akashic Brotherhood
While the mainstream Akashic Brotherhood is mostly unchanged, they have lost some of their affiliated groups. For instance, an order of Samurai and an order of sumo wrestlers have left the Brotherhood.
In the more mainstream group, they are divided between those that favor internal enlightenment and those that favor external martial arts, though this is mainly an internal issue and has not yet resulted in a full schism.
The Cult of Ecstasy
(Learn more about Indian mysticism and insert it here)
The Sons of Ether
The Sons are divided into three main groups; the mechanics the scientists, and the adventurers. The scientists care deeply about their theories, while the mechanics don't really care what they use so long as it works. On the other hand, the adventurers focus on 'using' rather than 'making.' The other main groups are the Technocratic Defectors, who are Technocrats that have decided to go another way, and the Shadow Ministry, who are the spies and social scientists of the Etherites.
They are still quite unified, giving them a great deal of political power.
The Virtual Adepts
While the Virtual Adepts are nominally unified, each individual is so egotistical that you wouldn't think that they are. Getting them to actually work together is like herding cats, and is only that easy if you're a notable figure, like Dante.
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UrsaTempest
Don't Panic!
Cut off here, I think.
I agree, but i think it should just more that tradition mages on average get more opportunities for seekings as pointed out here.
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
Even though Technocracy has the superior centralized control, Traditions are supposed to have superior grassroots.
That sounds like an exact opposite of ascension/enlightenment/eye-opening/becoming wiser/etc. Seems like it undermines one of the central pillars that made MtA and its story cool.
- Location
- Australia
Wouldn't that make them Marauders?
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
By intention, it seems like it's supposed to be a trap option, like an expansion of the Exemplars from Masters of the Art (mages who monofocus extremely on one sphere, allowing them archmastery at the cost of being able to gain that in any other sphere). It's probably easier than actual archmastery to allow for foil-type characters who attained power without wisdom to temper it and thus miss the forest for the trees by trapping themselves in their paradigm as opposed to transcending it and becoming the bodhisattva they are supposed to become.
Quantumboost
Now with 50% more dots in Dimensional Science
- Location
- Ensemble Space
If they originated as a heretical sect of Christianity, and the Abrahamics including Christianity are second-class citizens, who the heck are supposed to be the first-class citizens?
- Location
- Australia
Early sects of Christianity were a lot more diverse. The celestial choir may believe in Gnosticism or something else contrary to typical modern Christian theology.If they originated as a heretical sect of Christianity, and the Abrahamics including Christianity are second-class citizens, who the heck are supposed to be the first-class citizens?
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
Turning the goal of the game, one that is a major selling point thereof, into a trap option seems odd to me. It seems to turn everything on its head. (Okay, not literally everything, but still.)
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
(Also, the point about archmastery was that it isn't the goal of the game; archmasters gain lots of power over the universe but they don't accomplish the goal of it all, they don't get to the real ultimate ending - ascension.)
vicky_molokh
Posthuman spidery thingy.
- Location
- Kyïv, Ukraine
I understood 'alternate path' to be 'an alternate variation of the setting where things work differently'.
As for archmastery - I had the impression that Arete 6 characters (Oracles etc.) were either high on the ladder to ascension or chose to stay behind to help those lower than themselves along the path.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Yeah, archmagery is explicitly a trap option. There's a merit that does nothing but make it so that you can't ever develop 6 in any sphere because your avatar is active in protecting you.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The common thread we can identify with Archmasters - every single one - is that they haven't really stayed behind to help people, Porthos Fitz-Empress and Senex maybe, but regardless the thing about Archmastery is that it's giving you a lot of power, you'll be respected and feared and have the ability to shape the world as you see fit. A Technocratic Archscientist is on a high-flying career to "whatever I want", a Traditionalist Archmaster is a name spoken with reverence, even among the Union.
And it means nothing.
Ultimately, as @FBH and @TheLastOne have insisted quite a lot, Mage is a gnostic game, and securing all the power in the world to rule over a lie is still a whole lot of power over nothing. Sure, you can move planets and destroy souls but what does that matter? The Real Ultimate Power in mage lies not in sitting on power unimaginable but in realizing that everything is true and ascending from the shackles of the consensus and achieving whatever Ascension even is.
(It will never not amuse me that Ascension has detailed rules for making someone awaken but never talks about Ascension while Awakening has detailed rules for Ascension but never talks about Awakening)
Yeah, it's like "my avatar has tried this shit before and while the 'move planet' button is really cool, it'd really rather have me actually do my job".
The job just happens to be "transcend mortal constraints."
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
The common thread we can identify with Archmasters - every single one - is that they haven't really stayed behind to help people, Porthos Fitz-Empress and Senex maybe, but regardless the thing about Archmastery is that it's giving you a lot of power, you'll be respected and feared and have the ability to shape the world as you see fit. A Technocratic Archscientist is on a high-flying career to "whatever I want", a Traditionalist Archmaster is a name spoken with reverence, even among the Union.
And it means nothing.
Ultimately, as @FBH and @TheLastOne have insisted quite a lot, Mage is a gnostic game, and securing all the power in the world to rule over a lie is still a whole lot of power over nothing. Sure, you can move planets and destroy souls but what does that matter? The Real Ultimate Power in mage lies not in sitting on power unimaginable but in realizing that everything is true and ascending from the shackles of the consensus and achieving whatever Ascension even is.
(It will never not amuse me that Ascension has detailed rules for making someone awaken but never talks about Ascension while Awakening has detailed rules for Ascension but never talks about Awakening)
Yeah, it's like "my avatar has tried this shit before and while the 'move planet' button is really cool, it'd really rather have me actually do my job".
The job just happens to be "transcend mortal constraints."
Yeah, the Buddhavista option is Oraclehood, not Archmastery, though you're right that how ascension actually works being so light on the ground makes it hard to deal with in game is both true and annoying. Awakening does deal with that better, even with how light and incomplete on the ground Archmastery is there. It's still miles better then in Ascension. It's why so few games really focus on it - Arete is your power stat more then anything else, which...
Is just wrong.
And with Archmastery being limited to the upper echelons, the temptation to fall off the path only hits people of high enlightenment? No, you should never be insufficiently enlightened to make bad life decisions. Or just short sighted ones.
Well, the thing is, there's totally room to be an actual bodhisattva - that is, someone who could Ascend, but chooses not to in order to help everyone else up the path.
In theory, the Technocracy should have an advantage in that regard, insofar that at least in theory they're trying to get everyone to Ascend. (I particularly like @MJ12 Commando's Nichols, who basically spends all her E6 time making sure the billions of people still stuck in the Lie don't get eaten by space aliens.)
Quantumboost
Now with 50% more dots in Dimensional Science
- Location
- Ensemble Space
Not 'nothing but'; the merit in question also lets you use Rotes and Effects from other paradigms than yours once you hit Arete 6, with a difficulty hike dependent on Arete (goes to zero at 10). This is in addition to the usual focus abandonment and/or conjunctional stretching.
Though that's more a side-effect, presumably to justify it being more than a single point. Both effects only apply once you've reached Arete 6 anyway (because you can't learn Spheres above your Arete, and the 'use other peoples' paradigms' requires Arete 6 itself).
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Hmm, had forgotten about that. You're right.