Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

I view archmastery as being a step on the path to oraclehood and ascension, and think that it being a trap is just the authors being dumb. After all, getting it requires you to acknowledge the truth of the world, with more and more truths coming as you level up your arete. Why should Forces 6 be a trap but not Forces 5?

The alternate path is in addition to normal archmastery, not instead of. Edit: It's also a trap option, preventing you from achieving Ascension.
 
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I view archmastery as veing a step on the path to oraclehood and ascension, and think that it veing a trap is just the authors being dumb. After all, getting it requires you to acgnowledge the truth of the world, with more and more truths coming as you level up your arete. Why should Forces 6 be a trap but not Forces 5?

Why is having enough money to live comfortably enough so you're able to think about more than your next meal felt to be a good thing, but living life solely in pursuit of money felt to be bad?
 
Why is having enough money to live comfortably enough so you're able to think about more than your next meal felt to be a good thing, but living life solely in pursuit of money felt to be bad?
Okay, that took me a bit to get, probably because I'm dumb.

But I'm not convinced that 1-5 are morally good and just while 6-10 are a trap. There's nothing stopping you from getting high ranks in Entropy and then using it to help people Awaken and Ascend, no more than Bill Gates being one of the richest men alive stopped him from being able to give massive amounts to charity. There's nothing stopping you from being a Bodhisattva at Life 6-10, no more than being blinded by the Lie at Life 5.

Also, Book of Secrets is out. Anyone get it and desire to share some thoughts?
 
The core of the difference in the gnosticism of oMage and nMage can really be seen in their approach to gnosticism.

In oMage, Archmastery is a trap, because you're turning your supernal arete into mastering the tools of the false world. You've got super-good at Forces, but actually Forces are just an illusion that mean nothing at all, and since you're Artete 6+ you know this and yet you still waste your time with them. It's a choice to turn away from the right path, and cling to the familiar.

In nMage, Archmastery indicates that you've managed to crawl up to the mouth of the cave, and now you're standing half outside and half inside, and when you move your hands you cast shadows for the fools still in the cave to try to interpret. It's a marker that you're over half-way there, and you're not really trapped in the cave any more. You've got super good at Forces, because to some extent the natural forces of the world are a reflection of you.
 
In oMage, Archmastery is a trap, because you're turning your supernal arete into mastering the tools of the false world. You've got super-good at Forces, but actually Forces are just an illusion that mean nothing at all, and since you're Artete 6+ you know this and yet you still waste your time with them. It's a choice to turn away from the right path, and cling to the familiar.
So after Arete 6 you should stop learning Spheres entirely? That seems pretty unfun and counter-intuitive. What about Abilities and Attributes? Those are just illusions as well. And merits and stuff as well. Really, all character advancement. See how this seems more than a bit bad for the game, if the only 'proper' thing you can do after Arete 6 is increase Arete?
 
So, because I am an idiot far too prone to indulging random ideas, I've been jotting down notes for a potential Ascension fic over the past couple of days (I'd say Quest, but I recognise my own foibles when it comes to Quests and I'd like to actually explore the story at some point...)

The main thing I've been doing is shining a spotlight on some of the less stereotypical interpretations of the Traditions, or at least the minor sects that get lumped in with the broader orders, because I find some of them rather fascinating. Just as an example... apparently the Euthanatos have a sub-section of mages who derive their paradigm from Irish legends, and believe in geasa and the power of oaths in general rather than fate as it is more classically understood. I read that and instantly had a character concept bouncing around in my head, because "Draws magical abilities from supernaturally potent oaths" is a really broad paradigm that also comes with significant drawbacks built in (breaking a geas is generally suicidal at the very least).

(Also the legends are apparently full of people who tried rules-lawyering their way into getting really powerful geasa with a obscure condition that could never possibly come up, which amuses me...)

In doing this, I've largely been going with an overall story theme of young mages who have a Traditions-compatible paradigm that are none the less cut off from all support and tutoring, at least in their early years, because hey I need a narrative to follow when planning and that's as good as any.

I've been able to go through most of the different Traditions and come up with ideas that amuse or interest me for each of them (the Dreamspeaker, for example, is an engineer who was deeply surprised when the machine they were repairing actually responded to their loving attention with words...), but I've hit something of a wall when it comes to the Verbena.

Specifically, I'm having some difficulty coming up with a paradigm that falls under the Verbena umbrella that could plausibly be picked up by someone with no knowledge of how the established Verbena do things... and that ideally doesn't just make them a slightly more eccentric Progenitor. It's just... the Verbena seem really, really tied to the cultural and religious niche of 'being druids'.

Maybe some kind of 'living earth grants magic to her chosen children' or whatever, but... hmm...

Anyway, thoughts/suggestions/ideas?
 
Alright, I've gotten my hands on the Book of Secrets, and I'll be liveposting my reading of it.

Never underestimate a cute little hippie-chick with a grudge, boys. You never know what she can do when she sets her heart on doing it.
Much afraid, very wow. So tough.

So, it opens with a story where a 'hippy' tortures a... Technocrat maybe. It's very unclear. I really have very little idea what's going on, so I'm just going to go straight through.

Welcome to the annex – the storehouse of secrets that escaped the mammoth confines of Mage 20th Anniversary Edition and found their way between these covers. Even with projects of that scope and size, there's never room for everything,
Maybe if you had an editor worthy of the name you'd have had enough room for some of this stuff. And we're already seeing the stupid conversational style that takes up so much of the wordcount.

Chapter one:

Archetypes:
For the Archetype section, it strikes me that each Archetype has a 'how do you get ascension.' However, like in earlier editions, there's no system for finding ascension, so this seems to be wasted wordcount. I'll admit, I skimmed through this section a bit, so I don't have much to say.

Secondary Abilities:
Before reading this, I'll say that I don't expect to like this, seeing as how Ability bloat was one of the bad things about World of Darkness. I mean, do we really need an Ability specifically for terrorism? Do we? Who knows, maybe this will surprise me?
As described in Mage 20, Talents represent Abilities for which your character has an innate gift. Practice hones that gift, of course, but the basis for a Talent Trait comes from a knack that certain folks have and other folks do not.
Well let's see what things Brucato considers to be innate gifts!
>Cooking
Welp. That's the worst of these though, though I consider all of them teachable. The real problem is that all of them seem to be adequately covered by existing things. So why spend wordcount in an actual book on this instead of posting it on the forums or something?

Also, some of them are redundant inside the same chapter! Do we really need Diplomacy, Negotiation, and Newspeak? Do we need Newspeak at all? Do we need Intuition and Scan?

Also:
[Blind Fighting] does not, of course, give you a bonus for fighting in the dark
Of course. Why would I ever assume that? I guess if you're blind, you still get impaired by darkness, because why the fuck not?

Finally, Terrorism makes a return, as the more politically correct Unconventional Warfare. Aside from that, I find myself liking the writeup, as it focuses on the policital and propaganda aspects of terrorism instead of just blowing shit up. The question remains as to how it combines with other Abilities, and why you can't just use those other Abilities. Like, do you need both, or can you just use the non-terrorism ability, or can you use the terrorism ability to do all the things, or what?

Merits and Flaws
Although we have not reprinted the Traits given in that book, we have included entries below that refer you to those Mage 20 entries; this way, all of the appropriate Merits and Flaws are presented together for clarity's sake, and you don't need to go paging through different books in order to find what you need.
Still spending wordcount like it's going out of style, I see.

All I really have to say about this section is that it hasn't done anything to alleviate 'autistic blind dwarf savant' syndrome, or 'lightweight child with nightmares' synrdrome. The first is where you end up with a ridiculously disadvantaged character which is minimaxed out the wazoo, and the second is where you pick a bunch of relatively irrelevant flaws in order to minimax. The worst is when you pick a bunch of flaws that are bad for the whole party, rather than just you, like Enemy (or whatever they decided to call it nowadays). They did make it a lot less offensive, changing names and stuff to that effect. But really, did we really not learn anything from the past decade+ of game design? No? Just asking.

Twisted Apprenticeship (1 pt. Flaw)
Someone taught you all the wrong things. For whatever reason, the mentor who introduced you to the Awakened realm did a terrible job, and now you reap the benefits. They may have told you lies about other groups, filled your head with nonsense about the nature of magick (though in all honesty, pretty much everyone does that), or simply behaved like a raging shmuck and left you with the payoff. Now folks blame you for things you did not do (or you did out of ignorance), and the mentor's bad rep and worse teachings hang about you like a god-slaying stink. You'll probably recover eventually, but your Awakened career got off to a wretched start

Damn Akashics!

Next up is Chapter Two.
 
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So after Arete 6 you should stop learning Spheres entirely? That seems pretty unfun and counter-intuitive. What about Abilities and Attributes? Those are just illusions as well. And merits and stuff as well. Really, all character advancement. See how this seems more than a bit bad for the game, if the only 'proper' thing you can do after Arete 6 is increase Arete?

You should not keep focusing on the parts of the illusion you've already mastered. You might look at and try and understand a new portion of the illusion - a new sphere. But there really is nothing you can do with 6+ in a sphere that you can't do with 5. It's just harder. Going past five means you care more about controlling that illusion as a tool then as an aspect of the prison.

Up till five you're figuring an aspect of reality out, till at five you can make anything of it. Then, fully understanding how that aspect of a reality is a lie, you can set it aside.
 
White Wolf had a habit of writing everything as a problem to create plot potential, but often went too far.
I mean, this is true, but are you referring to anything in particular? Because this seems like a bit of a non-sequitur.
You should not keep focusing on the parts of the illusion you've already mastered. You might look at and try and understand a new portion of the illusion - a new sphere. But there really is nothing you can do with 6+ in a sphere that you can't do with 5. It's just harder. Going past five means you care more about controlling that illusion as a tool then as an aspect of the prison.

Up till five you're figuring an aspect of reality out, till at five you can make anything of it. Then, fully understanding how that aspect of a reality is a lie, you can set it aside.
I'm reasonably sure this is bull, but I don't care enough to pull out Masters of the Art and do a comparison. Especially since I'm busy with the Book of Secrets.
 
I mean, this is true, but are you referring to anything in particular? Because this seems like a bit of a non-sequitur.

I'm reasonably sure this is bull, but I don't care enough to pull out Masters of the Art and do a comparison. Especially since I'm busy with the Book of Secrets.

It is in masters of the art, pretty much.

Start on page 56. You can get an oracle seeking when you have a 'Broad Universal View', Arete 8+, and your storyteller thinks it's appropriate. Arete is explicitly not enough, you must 'learn to master magic with a certain set of rule and then move beyond them."

Archmages are the ones who missed their Avatars messages in their drive to 'Master the Spheres.'

That's what Ascension Message does - your Avatar won't let you go up any further then 5, so you must broaden your viewpoint instead.
 
Finally, Terrorism makes a return, as the more politically correct Unconventional Warfare. Aside from that, I find myself liking the writeup, as it focuses on the policital and propaganda aspects of terrorism instead of just blowing shit up. The question remains as to how it combines with other Abilities, and why you can't just use those other Abilities. Like, do you need both, or can you just use the non-terrorism ability, or can you use the terrorism ability to do all the things, or what?

You mean the best Ability returns because it's useful for everything right? :V
 
Chapter Two: Rules and Options

It opens with a section about how we shouldn't give people flying cars because they can't even handle normal cars, from the perspective of a technocrat. I'm sure that this will in no way fan the fires of the Trad/Tech flamewar. Sigh, who am I kidding?

If magick was simple, everyone would do it. And if Mage was simple, maybe everyone would play it.
1. That's a bit pretentious. 2. It's really not, and you haven't managed to make it any simpler.

Next up is some stuff on knocking people unconcious, some Stunts, and rules on playing children.

The computer section seems to love bloat. You can't just hack with Computers 5, you need Security, and Library, and Research, and... This seems unfun, though OP has a habit of dismissing everyone who hasn't actually run into the problem in actual play, so... I've also been assured that the section on trinitary computers is bullshit. Additionally, the rules for hacking seem more expansive and complex than the rules for fighting (IIRC) which feeds into the Decker problem, and the fact that hacking is rather niche. KISS should have been the word of the day, but wasn't.

The resonance section expands the rules on Resonance, and is solidly alright, except for a few mix-ups.
When choosing a signature, pick an expressive one-word description (preferably a verb) that shows how the energy acts in that character's life. Good descriptions include words like Stabilizing, Sorrowful, Furious, Cheerful, Tempestuous, Reliable, Warlike, and so forth. Capture the essence of the energy in that word, and think of how that word manifests the energy in your character's life and story. For examples, see Four Flavors of Resonance, below.
(Emphasis Mine) ...Only one of those is a verb...

"Hey – Pass Me That Fetish!"

As with Many Capitalized Terms of Grand Significance, the labels used in this section describe game-terms, not character-terms. An Etherite tinkerer isn't going to make much distinction between her Devices, Gadgets, and Periapts; instead, she'll refer to her Quantum Stasis Field Generation Matrix (patent pending), her Strontium Dog Flash Canisters, and her K46-D Etheric Storage Units. The various categories discussed in the main text allow Mage players to keep track of the rules tied to those contraptions, and the Mighty Capital Letters help distinguish a spirit-leashing Fetish from a sexual predilection involving dog-collars and consent. Don't feel compelled, then, to use the "proper" terminology when your characters speak. As far as mages are concerned, a Wonder by any other name is simply a cool widget that gets a certain job done.
The Wonders section makes sure to note that the terms aren't always IC, which is weird given that M20 seems to think the Spheres are IC to people beyond the Hermetics. So it's a bit inconsistent, but okay...

The Wonders system is also a bit complex, and could have probably been simplified. Additionally, the Grimoire section says that Principiae are weaker due to being mass-produced, but the Principiae section just says they're identical to Grimoires. Okay...

Matrixes come before Peripats, but the mechanics are in the Peripat section.

All in all, the Wonder's section is solidly alright, though in the actual creation it suffers from sphere bloat. But that's nothing new.
 
Chapter 3

The section on Focus, while somewhat confusing due to being used to other meanings for the words in the context of the game, was actually pretty good. I do dislike the hating on Technocrats and Technomancers, and would instead say that you can only act without instruments if it makes sense in your paradigm. For instance, a Technocrat can easily cast certain effects (increase the force of my punches) without Instruments, but struggles to do others (create explosion). Additionally, using a Focus that you don't need to gives you a bonus, so 1. it really does screw over Technocrats and Technomancers, and 2. even mystic Mages should always be using their Foci, even after they've discarded them. However, this is just a continuation from the M20 core, so I'm more lenient on it than if it had been introduced in this book.

Later on it says that Technocrats can cross-train within the Conventions easily, but can't train Traditions or Crafts at all. I'm just going to ignore that, and let people train when it makes sense. After all, the NWO agent who works via their own personal excellence shouldn't really be able to easily slot in a Progenitor who modifies their own body's teachings. However, that NWO agent can probably train a Traditionalist with an emphasis on personal excellence.

The examples are all trendy and/or non-conforming late teen to twenty-somethings, which gets a bit old after a bit. Give me a conformist (to their faction) 30 year old pls.

The new Paradigms and Practices fill a lot of holes left in M20, which is nice.

Chapter 4

The sections on the Traditions, the Technocracy, and the Disparates (hurling noise) are alright. Yes, even the disparates. The Nephrandi includes a pearl-clutching 'don't play them ever' and it seems to vacillitate on how much influence the Nephrandi have over the common man. The section on Marauders is pretty eh as well.

Chapter 5

Man, does Satyros like to ramble on. He constantly takes things that should have been two paragraphs, and turns them into two pages. Other than that I don't really have much to say here.
 
Specifically, I'm having some difficulty coming up with a paradigm that falls under the Verbena umbrella that could plausibly be picked up by someone with no knowledge of how the established Verbena do things... and that ideally doesn't just make them a slightly more eccentric Progenitor. It's just... the Verbena seem really, really tied to the cultural and religious niche of 'being druids'.

Maybe some kind of 'living earth grants magic to her chosen children' or whatever, but... hmm...

Anyway, thoughts/suggestions/ideas?
In large part, that's because the whole point of druidism was that it was a mystery cult - it's all about passing down secrets known to a chosen few, that must not ever be divulged and can only be learned from another master.

But in that regard, there's something of a "plot hole" you can take advantage of - where'd the first druid come from? I don't know that you can do pure Verbena, but if you had someone with a few dots of Spirit, you could imagine someone who stumbles into, oh, cutting a holy tree or the like, and getting out of the traditional penalty by the skin of their teeth - so then they have a debt to work off, and in the process have to pick up the proper rites right from the original sources.
 
Specifically, I'm having some difficulty coming up with a paradigm that falls under the Verbena umbrella that could plausibly be picked up by someone with no knowledge of how the established Verbena do things... and that ideally doesn't just make them a slightly more eccentric Progenitor. It's just... the Verbena seem really, really tied to the cultural and religious niche of 'being druids'.

Remember, the Aztecs are verbena too.

The core of the verbena paradigm is that there is power in Life, and you can extract it via sacrifice. Anybody who uses blood magic or some other forms of getting power via sacrificing health is doing verbena-ok magic.
 
Specifically, I'm having some difficulty coming up with a paradigm that falls under the Verbena umbrella that could plausibly be picked up by someone with no knowledge of how the established Verbena do things... and that ideally doesn't just make them a slightly more eccentric Progenitor. It's just... the Verbena seem really, really tied to the cultural and religious niche of 'being druids'.

Maybe some kind of 'living earth grants magic to her chosen children' or whatever, but... hmm...

Anyway, thoughts/suggestions/ideas?
I'm not that knowledgeable with mage, but if I understood correctly, Verbena are all "take life energy from point A to point B" (well, a bit more elaborate, but it kind of seem like that if you get down to the most general interpretation), so uh... maybe a cook who discovered he was from a cooking manga his food had properties that food shouldn't have? Like eating a steak shouldn't give you the strength of a bull?

(though I may have completely misunderstood the Verbena's concept, so yeah)
 
Listen, we drained someone of his blood to power our supernatural skills. It has nothing to do with these damn leeches who drain someone of their blood to power their supernatural skills!
"You drain someone of their blood in order to offer to your god/s in exchange for power, they drink blood to survive...why are they looking morally superior to you?"
 
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