Honestly, the best source for the Hermetic Paradigm as practiced by the Order of Hermes is Ars Magica, including some of the sourcebooks. Kabbalah for the Angel Summoning (which has also bled over to summoning some pagan gods, because the Order of Hermes barrows from Jewish wizards, but they aren't Jewish wizards as a group, and are fine with having other gods) and Golems. Some of the other sources books are good for creating and binding celestial spirits and familiars and the like.
They might boarder some real world occult traditions, but they're the wizards written out of history, and they should be wizards, complete with fireballs. They can summon angels and bargain with gods because they're wizards. They aren't wizards because they can summon angels and bargain with gods.
The seat of power is the self, and self mastery, and the will to impose and change the world. There's a lot of magical technology that they have, words of power, bargains and rights seized by ancient magi, alchemical lore of both matter and spirit that can be leveraged to change lead into gold, or more abstractly and spiritually, disaster into success.
But the power is in the self, in the will, and in the will to dominate. Human sacrifice isn't practiced because it opens one to outside dependencies, and that leads to infernalism, and infernal no matter how sweet it seems at first leads to damnation. That was the original crime of the Tremere - not turning to Vampirism, but turning to diabolism. And for it they were cast from the Order by root and stem.
Likewise, for something as basic as mastering the elements, they would not turn to gods and angels. If you have to turn to gods and angels for something that basic, you aren't a wizard. You are at best a Priest or other anointed one, who might be respected for the one you serve, or for the personal virtues that made a god grant you power, but not for your own merits as a wizard. At worst, you're a witch, taking shortcuts to gain power you haven't yet earned through hard work and self mastery.
So, if one were to run Mage: The Ascension without the bleak post-modernist stuff associated with it (particularly in Revised and M20), how would one go about it?
I personally like the idea of Mage as a pulp action-adventure game of modern magic and wonder, and I'm all for crossovers. There is a World of Darkness parody fan-game from the late 1990's/early 2000's titled Senshi: The Merchandising that incorporates a lot of 90's anime into WoD (most notably Sailor Moon) and it is heavily tied into Mage: The Ascension's setting assumptions (at least 1e and 2e's assumptions. No reference to the Avatar Storm or any other metaplot shenanigans can be found in Senshi as far as I can tell). Even though the game is unofficial and fairly tongue-in-cheek, the rules are fairly functional and I consider it part of my personal WoD head-canon.
The rules and materials for Senshi: The Merchandising are linked below.
Does anybody else ever tweak the canon of Mage: The Ascension or include crossovers? I mean, there's nothing wrong with Post-Modernism, but there's also nothing wrong with anime-influenced Pulp Action-Adventure either.
I personally like the idea of a crossover game that is Mage-centric, where the focus is on the Mages, but they can also have allies such as Vampires, Werewolves, Changelings, Mortals, or Senshi for those who wish to play a non-Awakened. The main focus would be on the Council of Nine Traditions and the Hollow Ones. I would not use the metaplot, and any material introduced in Revised or M20 would be declared non-canon. But that's just me.
You can do your crossover Mage games anyway you want.
(In my games, Kindred of the East and Demon: The Fallen are declared non-canon, so no Kuei-Jin or Fallen)
There's plenty of places you can find a looser paradigm in West. Speaking from my own upbringing, I grew up in a neighborhood where it was commonly told that the angel statue in the nearby graveyard was the angel of death watching over the graves (so don't touch it); there was a water dragon that lived in this park's lake and ate children; there was a haunted burned down house from a gang fight; and people that would be called shamans of the Asian, Latino/a, and Native persuasion could be found. I can only imagine how fucked up things would be in the WoD.
Doesn't change the fact that there is a probe past the alleged Horizon. VEs must think it is safe for masses to get there so question remains. Does the Horizon move?
So, if one were to run Mage: The Ascension without the bleak post-modernist stuff associated with it (particularly in Revised and M20), how would one go about it?
I personally like the idea of Mage as a pulp action-adventure game of modern magic and wonder, and I'm all for crossovers. There is a World of Darkness parody fan-game from the late 1990's/early 2000's titled Senshi: The Merchandising that incorporates a lot of 90's anime into WoD (most notably Sailor Moon) and it is heavily tied into Mage: The Ascension's setting assumptions (at least 1e and 2e's assumptions. No reference to the Avatar Storm or any other metaplot shenanigans can be found in Senshi as far as I can tell). Even though the game is unofficial and fairly tongue-in-cheek, the rules are fairly functional and I consider it part of my personal WoD head-canon.
I'm not sure to what extent you can remove postmodernism and have it be recognizably Mage. Mage specifically, not WoD in general. Like... the rejection of universalism etc. etc. is kind of baked into paradigm, how Vulgarity and Paradox work, etc. It's not just metaplot, it's literally the entire premise of the game, mechanics included. It's integrated on every level.
I suppose you could keep the core dice mechanics and Arete and Spheres in a purely numerical sense, discard Paradox and paradigm, and set things in the twenties and just... have the factions be people who use different methods which are all instead Objectively Correct and baked into reality somehow in a way that's not contradictory. You'd have to figure out how that all fits, somehow.
Does anybody else ever tweak the canon of Mage: The Ascension or include crossovers? I mean, there's nothing wrong with Post-Modernism, but there's also nothing wrong with anime-influenced Pulp Action-Adventure either.
Nope. I include crossovers with pretty much anything without bothering to tweak any aspect of the canon at all. IIRC the game I was running included things from Changeling: the Lost, Warhammer, Starcraft, Kamen Rider (thanks dragonx99), Wraith: the Oblivion, Vampire: the Masquerade, Werewolf: the Apocalypse, X-Men, Crysis (thanks MJ), arguably Monster Girl Quest and Godzilla (thanks Nevindar), and probably a couple other things, no real changes involved aside from saying 'this is a thing that shows up'. Of course, incorporating that many crossovers requires embracing rather than rejecting the anti-universalist aspects of the game, but c'est la vie.
No Void Engineers which is pretty much the same thing. Still didn't answer my question. There must be a reaso nfor VE to be confiden enough to allow Masses to get a glimpse beyond solar system.
No Void Engineers which is pretty much the same thing. Still didn't answer my question. There must be a reaso nfor VE to be confiden enough to allow Masses to get a glimpse beyond solar system.
Wait, so the Void Engineers told you that probes outside lunar orbit are a thing? Where did they do that, on their website? In press releases? Maybe they called the media to their lunar base and did an interview?
Wait, so the Void Engineers told you that probes outside lunar orbit are a thing? Where did they do that, on their website? In press releases? Maybe they called the media to their lunar base and did an interview?
There are many things I want to say here, but I'm not sure of a way to say them that I won't get banned. So instead let me spell things out to you.
NASA is lying about probes outside lunar orbit. They are lying because outside of lunar orbit is the Umbra. They are lying because the way to turn the Umbra into realspace is to have people believe it. This applies to the Horizon too. All the probes outside lunar orbit don't actually exist, and are just lies. Eventually the Void Engineers and NASA will seal the deal and send a human, to turn the Umbra into space, but first they have to pave the way by convincing people that probes exist.
They're not necessarily all lies, but those few that aren't are built by the Extraordinary Citizens and Enlightened Scientists infiltrated into NASA's ranks (Sorcerers and Mages by another name) and are literally magic items that specifically look and travel into the distant reaches of the Umbra, moving and communicating through applications of Dimensional Science and Correspondence or their Linear equivalents. Not Sleepertech in any way, shape, or form, because the realms they travel don't hew to such a paltry thing as the physics understood by Sleepers.
Most of the data they actually gather, of course, is so heavily filtered and edited by the time it reaches the public that it's basically a giant mass of pearls of deceit wrapped around a few scant grains of truth.
---
But yes, basically everything about physics, about biology, about economics, about sociology and anthropology and psychology, about astronomy and engineering and computer science and mathematics and logic and philosophy...
They're lies, damned lies, and statistics, which as I mentioned is itself lies. A lie told often enough becomes truth, and the Technocratic Union has told our lies very many times indeed.
That reality exists, can be understood, and is independent of your personal beliefs is merely the one we like to tell most often.
Because we would oh so very much like it to become true.
There are many things I want to say here, but I'm not sure of a way to say them that I won't get banned. So instead let me spell things out to you.
NASA is lying about probes outside lunar orbit. They are lying because outside of lunar orbit is the Umbra. They are lying because the way to turn the Umbra into realspace is to have people believe it. This applies to the Horizon too. All the probes outside lunar orbit don't actually exist, and are just lies. Eventually the Void Engineers and NASA will seal the deal and send a human, to turn the Umbra into space, but first they have to pave the way by convincing people that probes exist.
I told you guys that I wanted a stright answer because I don't really understand the Deep Umbra. And when I ask for an stright answer I expect it, not puzzles you throw to your players.
I mean for al I know that Horizon could have moved to beyond Solar system so VE can green light NASA probes beyond the solar system. But that would be only true if Horizon can move hence my question.
You are the guys who is insisting that Horizon didn't move and VE is just decieveing everybody. Which was not really a answer to my question.
I told you guys that I wanted a stright answer because I don't really understand the Deep Umbra. And when I ask for an stright answer I expect it, not puzzles you throw to your players.
I mean for al I know that Horizon could have moved to beyond Solar system so VE can green light NASA probes beyond the solar system. But that would be only true if Horizon can move hence my question.
You are the guys who is insisting that Horizon didn't move and VE is just decieveing everybody. Which was not really a answer to my question.
You know, you're going to get more useful help if you don't get condescending at people...
@notanautomaton's latest post is, in fact, a perfectly clear and reasonable explanation of what's going on. I suggest you reread it, because I don't really feel like restating what he's already said.
I told you guys that I wanted a stright answer because I don't really understand the Deep Umbra. And when I ask for an stright answer I expect it, not puzzles you throw to your players.
I mean for al I know that Horizon could have moved to beyond Solar system so VE can green light NASA probes beyond the solar system. But that would be only true if Horizon can move hence my question.
You are the guys who is insisting that Horizon didn't move and VE is just decieveing everybody. Which was not really a answer to my question.
Sadly, you've decided to insult, misrepresent, and condescend to the people who were trying to help you and did in fact give you straightforward and infomative explanations (more notanautomaton than me, but still), and then refuse to actually read what we wrote, so you'll just have to figure it out yourself.
As a final tip, the answer is already explicitly given in my initial reply to you, and is also present in Void Engineers Revised.
I think we can draw a delineation between Infernalism and infernalism; the Order of Hermes is fine enough with calling up Mephistopheles and telling him to fuck up bitches, but the Order of Hermes is not fine with summoning up Mephistopheles and telling him to fuck up this bitch.
With regards to human sacrifice, we can identify that it is associated with Entropic resonance, which leads to Jhor, which leads to Nephandi and massasa-vampires and worse things; all of which the Order of Hermes has a long history with - even the Verbenae used to be enemies to the Order and most of those probably don't do human sacrifice these days.
I think that by the point you're sacrificing humans, there is not much of a debate whether you've turned evil or not in the minds of most; you've still killed a person for the good of none but you and your magic as well as almost irrevocably given yourself a resonance of death and identifying yourself as someone willing to kill to get a power boost. Remember that even the Euthanatos keep strict watch over their killers and assassins to ensure they don't fall too far down the spiral of Jhor.
With regards to the Umbra, it works like this:
Void Enginers have ensured effective travel in the Sol system (one could even call it the Origin system), in which their vessels can move around and tank up at various stations and the like, but beyond the Solar system you have Deep Space; Deep Space is a shitty place to be, here you need Dimensional Science to move around because it's full of hostile aliens and death worlds who hate your guts personally, the real moon landings were actually Void Engineer-led invasions to clear the moon of horrible fairy aliens while the NWO-Void Engineer-led Earthside teams covered up everything through the auspices of NASA and faked the moon landings many years later to give everyone the idea of a sterile, empty moon of muted grey, just like pictures of Mars tell the Massees that there is no alien life to be found there after the Union was finished genociding the surface of aliens and only the Hermetics held out in Doissetep.
There is no Horizon probe because the Void Engineers are busy fighting the war to end all wars in the void of space, desperately fighting off Transhuman insurgents and Autopolitan abominations while hiding their doings from the rest of the Union - there can't be a probe.
It should be mentioned that spaghetti posting is generally seen in a better light outside of Current Affairs, and is often only infracted as such when used to pick apart an argument and reply to component parts rather than the holistic greater sum.
Sadly, you've decided to insult, misrepresent, and condescend to the people who were trying to help you and did in fact give you straightforward and infomative explanations (more notanautomaton than me, but still), and then refuse to actually read what we wrote, so you'll just have to figure it out yourself.
As a final tip, the answer is already explicitly given in my initial reply to you, and is also present in Void Engineers Revised.
If people didn't already make fun of me from the start I might have taken people seriously. Seriously I ask about the Horizon and people answer me with "LOL no probes" "Who told you that" "Lies lies and slander" etc.
If I was condescending it was because I was mirroring y'all. Still thank you. VE Revised is something I haven't read yet. It is appreantly a good idea to do since getting something understandable from you guys is like pulling teeth.
I am still confused about the issue because the answers are not the answer to my question. notanautomaton says Umbra and Horizon haven't moved and VE is just making way but that sounds wrong to me. Didn't VE already sent bunch of citizens up there? Isn't there bunch of sleeper telescopes around the world?
If people didn't already make fun of me from the start I might have taken people seriously. Seriously I ask about the Horizon and people answer me with "LOL no probes" "Who told you that" "Lies lies and slander" etc.
If I was condescending it was because I was mirroring y'all. Still thank you. VE Revised is something I haven't read yet. It is appreantly a good idea to do since getting something understandable from you guys is like pulling teeth.
I am still confused about the issue because the answers are not the answer to my question. notanautomaton says Umbra and Horizon haven't moved and VE is just making way but that sounds wrong to me. Didn't VE already sent bunch of citizens up there? Isn't there bunch of sleeper telescopes around the world?
I use to find parts of the Umbra confusing as well, and its still a contradicting mess (which my group reformed long ago, but somewhat in their defense it's suppose to be colored by subjectivity). From my understanding of cannon, it's best to think of it as the expansion of the physical world. The general consensus of humanity, pushed by the Technocracy, has pushed the separation of the physical and the spirit worlds as far as Mars. Beyond that is the Void, where there is little to no separation. Things might have changed, but I've never read any of the Technocracy books outside of Guide to the Technocracy.
I use to find parts of the Umbra confusing as well, and its still a contradicting mess (which my group reformed long ago, but somewhat in their defense it's suppose to be colored by subjectivity). From my understanding of cannon, it's best to think of it as the expansion of the physical world. The general consensus of humanity, pushed by the Technocracy, has pushed the separation of the physical and the spirit worlds as far as Mars. Beyond that is the Void, where there is little to no separation. Things might have changed, but I've never read any of the Technocracy books outside of Guide to the Technocracy.
I don't remember. I think the asteroid belt was a physical counterpart to a greater gauntlet to the Deep Umbra/Universe. But I was never a fan of Star Wars: The Ascension so I never read much about it. We also played more earth based games where going to Horizon Realms wasn't that common, let alone traveling to other planets.
Doesn't change the fact that there is a probe past the alleged Horizon. VEs must think it is safe for masses to get there so question remains. Does the Horizon move?
No Void Engineers which is pretty much the same thing. Still didn't answer my question. There must be a reaso nfor VE to be confiden enough to allow Masses to get a glimpse beyond solar system.
NASA is lying about probes outside lunar orbit. They are lying because outside of lunar orbit is the Umbra. They are lying because the way to turn the Umbra into realspace is to have people believe it. This applies to the Horizon too. All the probes outside lunar orbit don't actually exist, and are just lies. Eventually the Void Engineers and NASA will seal the deal and send a human, to turn the Umbra into space, but first they have to pave the way by convincing people that probes exist.
I told you guys that I wanted a stright answer because I don't really understand the Deep Umbra. And when I ask for an stright answer I expect it, not puzzles you throw to your players.
I mean for al I know that Horizon could have moved to beyond Solar system so VE can green light NASA probes beyond the solar system. But that would be only true if Horizon can move hence my question.
You are the guys who is insisting that Horizon didn't move and VE is just decieveing everybody. Which was not really a answer to my question.
You know, you're going to get more useful help if you don't get condescending at people...
@notanautomaton's latest post is, in fact, a perfectly clear and reasonable explanation of what's going on. I suggest you reread it, because I don't really feel like restating what he's already said.
Sadly, you've decided to insult, misrepresent, and condescend to the people who were trying to help you and did in fact give you straightforward and infomative explanations (more notanautomaton than me, but still), and then refuse to actually read what we wrote, so you'll just have to figure it out yourself.
As a final tip, the answer is already explicitly given in my initial reply to you, and is also present in Void Engineers Revised.
If people didn't already make fun of me from the start I might have taken people seriously. Seriously I ask about the Horizon and people answer me with "LOL no probes" "Who told you that" "Lies lies and slander" etc.
If I was condescending it was because I was mirroring y'all. Still thank you. VE Revised is something I haven't read yet. It is appreantly a good idea to do since getting something understandable from you guys is like pulling teeth.
I am still confused about the issue because the answers are not the answer to my question. notanautomaton says Umbra and Horizon haven't moved and VE is just making way but that sounds wrong to me. Didn't VE already sent bunch of citizens up there? Isn't there bunch of sleeper telescopes around the world?
The short answer is that @notanautomaton is wrong. The Umbra can move, the Umbra has moved and space probes are real. The long answer... Strap yourselves in, we're going on a ride.
Most people think of the Umbra as looking something like this:
The truth is more like this:
Allow me to explain. The word 'Horizon' isn't exactly clear terminology. Horizon can refer to: Horizon Realms (artificially created spirit realms), the Biospheric Horizon (defined as the edge of Earth's atmosphere), and Spatial Horizon (the edge of the Masses' influence and the end of Conventional Space). Conventional Space is what is separated from us by the Gauntlet. Conventional Space has been expanded by the Masses' space exploration.
You could also define 'Horizon' as where the Deep Umbra begins.
"But @WhatIf ?" you might ask "What does that have to do with your second picture?"
That's where things get more complicated.
Other definitions of 'Horizon' that are important: (source wikitionary)
The horizontal line that appears to separate the Earth from the sky
The range or limit of one's knowledge, experience or interest
The word 'Horizon' comes from the Greek ὅρος (or hóros) meaning boundary, limit, or frontier.
Once upon a time the Umbra could be reached by traveling out to the American Frontier. You could literally walk into the spirit world on foot, through places called 'Shallowings'. The Umbra had violent twisting storms which would bleed into normal reality. (source Mage Storyteller's Handbook). The Umbra has also been not that far off the Earth and the sky (or the stars). In Sorcerer's Crusade, and some time after, the Order of Reason would sail 'Skyriggers' off the edge of the world into the Umbra. Back then the earth was flat, so the idea of the Horizon being past the asteroid field wouldn't have made any sense (as there wasn't an asteroid field yet).
The current Deep Umbra (as of Convention Book: Void Engineers which came out November 2013) is here:
But this location makes no sense before we 'knew' that the earth revolved around the sun, or before we 'knew' the Earth was round.
Here's the real truth about the Deep Umbra (and the Umbra in general): The barrier between the 'real world' and the Umbra is a barrier of perception. Spirit and Dimensional Science can allow you to see into the Umbra, and even touch and talk to things on the other side, without crossing the Umbra. Outer Space used to just be the Umbra. The Technocracy drove the Umbra to the other side of the Gauntlet. Traditionalists and Technocrats can still reach Subspace/Etherspace where Etheric physics still hold. Etherspace was once on this side of the gauntlet, now it's on the other side. All of the Umbra once existed on the same side of the Gauntlet as us until it was driven to the other side. In Mage, exploring reality also defines it. The Colonies in the Americas, Africa, and Asia were beachheads for the Technocracy, incursions into areas that defied their fledgling consensus of science. The Technocracy takes over not just the physical space of a people, but also their conceptual space. They decide what, if anything, is worth keeping and what is rejected (and will end up on the other side of the gauntlet). The Umbra exists in the frontier, territory that stubbornly resists mainstream consensus.
In Space, sometimes you can cross into the spirit worlds without even crossing the gauntlet because the gauntlet becomes so low it isn't even there. Mars once was the Shard Realm of Forces. Now Mars is only linked to the Shard Realm of Forces. The Umbral Realms are sort of metaphorical think tanks, in them ideas can exist and develop that would be shot down outside. The Umbral Realms received only a small trickle of outside ideas before the Avatar Storm, and were stranded without even any outside ideas afterwords.
The Deep Umbra is so far out it is constructed of ideas so hostile and alien that humans cannot naturally survive without a Mage to warp reality in their favor.
Generally sleepers can't see unusual things in space because of a phenomenon called Tegmark Lensing. The NASA scientists operating probes and telescopes are enforcing their beliefs upon the things they see and the things their probes discover. Probes push sections of the Deep Umbra to the other side of the Gauntlet, but they're usually not enough on their own to push back the gauntlet.
Did that make any sense to anyone but me? or did it just make things more confusing?
My friend, whose more well read on the subject through the various editions, suggested to truly understand the Deep Umbra that one should read lots of Cthulu Mythos while drinking a large amount of alcohol, then bang your head repeatedly against a hard surface and once unconscious to let your dreams guide you.
If people didn't already make fun of me from the start I might have taken people seriously. Seriously I ask about the Horizon and people answer me with "LOL no probes" "Who told you that" "Lies lies and slander" etc.
There's a reason for that, though. Those probes seriously don't really exist, for the most part. Voyager doesn't exist, Cassini doesn't exist, and while Curiosity probably does exist it almost certainly has Technocracy staff editing out leftover footprints from various invasions and random Dreamspeakers going spirit-walking.
So yes, the Horizon can move (like everything else in Consensual reality, it's up for grabs) -- honestly, back a few thousand years ago you could probably get to it just by trying to cross the Mediterranean at the wrong time, in a lot of ways it's defined as "that which is blank and marked 'here be dragons' on maps" -- but the probes we've (allegedly) sent don't really tell you much about where it is, because there's a secret conspiracy controlling the world.
There's a reason for that, though. Those probes seriously don't really exist, for the most part. Voyager doesn't exist, Cassini doesn't exist, and while Curiosity probably does exist it almost certainly has Technocracy staff editing out leftover footprints from various invasions and random Dreamspeakers going spirit-walking.
So yes, the Horizon can move (like everything else in Consensual reality, it's up for grabs) -- honestly, back a few thousand years ago you could probably get to it just by trying to cross the Mediterranean at the wrong time, in a lot of ways it's defined as "that which is blank and marked 'here be dragons' on maps" -- but the probes we've (allegedly) sent don't really tell you much about where it is, because there's a secret conspiracy controlling the world.
Hence there's a lot of convincing the public at large that the photos of guys riding T-Rex's on Mars are most certainly photo-shopped and are not taken seriously.
