Knight of Dandriss: Stone and Steel

[redzonejoe]

Okay, On a laptop, I have notepad.exe open, It's time to get mathing.

First, a note: it's been pretty vague, and I keep forgetting although I'm sure I looked it up at least once before, but we will not be getting the income from Hab and Enclave going from this turn into turn 7. I just want to put this out there so I can stop forgetting and looking it up again.

Spoiler: Numbers so I don't have to keep switching tabs

Current Influence as of 6.3

Culture (47 - 45) 2
Economy 12
Science 11
Military -3

Updated Output
Culture +7
Economy +7 (+6)
Science +3
Military +2 (0)

(6/20 slots occupied) -> 8/20
(5/4 population occupied) -> 5/9

• Hab (+1 Culture, +1 Economy, +1 Science, +1 Military) [Cost: 25 culture, 5 economy]
• Entertainment Complex (+3 Culture) [Cost: 20 culture]
• Trading Post (+2 Economy, +1 Culture) [Cost: 15 economy, 5 culture]
• Factory (+3 Economy, also required to produce more advanced goods) [Cost: 25 economy]
• Reactor (+2 Economy, +1 Science) [Cost: 15 economy, 10 science]
• Research Lab (+3 Science) [Cost: 15 science, 5 economy, 5 culture]
• Proving Grounds (+1 Science, +2 Military) [Cost: 10 economy, 5 science, 5 military]
• Barracks (+3 Military) [Cost: 15 military, 5 economy]

• New Building Slot [Cost: 30 economy, 30 science]

• Network Center [Cost: 30 science, 20 economy]

• Rail line caravan (+2 Economy) [Cost: 15 economy; requires at least 1 Factory]

Removed some misc info from descriptions above for ease of reading


Misc Income/expenses relatively incalculable, as usual. So fuck me right? Here's to doing this all over again next turn!

Aiight, so here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to assume some fairly profitable build paths based on projected resources, which will be hilariously wrong when we get to it but will hopefully give us an understanding of what we're capable of. If you don't like my choice of buildings, do your own damn math. But I'll try to be fair with my build order, striking a balance between raw income and other useful building characteristics.

I'll have 3 different projections; if we spend science here, if we spend economy, and if we spend nothing and just shoot some dudes.

It's gonna take me a few minutes, so feel free to weigh in before I finish if you have any advice, suggestions or requests.

 

[Ekans Ekans Ekans]

Okay, On a laptop, I have notepad.exe open, It's time to get mathing.

First, a note: it's been pretty vague, and I keep forgetting although I'm sure I looked it up at least once before, but we will not be getting the income from Hab and Enclave going from this turn into turn 7. I just want to put this out there so I can stop forgetting and looking it up again.

Spoiler: Numbers so I don't have to keep switching tabs

Current Influence as of 6.3

Culture (47 - 45) 2
Economy 12
Science 11
Military -3

Updated Output
Culture +7
Economy +7 (+6)
Science +3
Military +2 (0)

(6/20 slots occupied) -> 8/20
(5/4 population occupied) -> 5/9

• Hab (+1 Culture, +1 Economy, +1 Science, +1 Military) [Cost: 25 culture, 5 economy]
• Entertainment Complex (+3 Culture) [Cost: 20 culture]
• Trading Post (+2 Economy, +1 Culture) [Cost: 15 economy, 5 culture]
• Factory (+3 Economy, also required to produce more advanced goods) [Cost: 25 economy]
• Reactor (+2 Economy, +1 Science) [Cost: 15 economy, 10 science]
• Research Lab (+3 Science) [Cost: 15 science, 5 economy, 5 culture]
• Proving Grounds (+1 Science, +2 Military) [Cost: 10 economy, 5 science, 5 military]
• Barracks (+3 Military) [Cost: 15 military, 5 economy]

• New Building Slot [Cost: 30 economy, 30 science]

• Network Center [Cost: 30 science, 20 economy]

• Rail line caravan (+2 Economy) [Cost: 15 economy; requires at least 1 Factory]

Removed some misc info from descriptions above for ease of reading


Misc Income/expenses relatively incalculable, as usual. So fuck me right? Here's to doing this all over again next turn!

Aiight, so here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to assume some fairly profitable build paths based on projected resources, which will be hilariously wrong when we get to it but will hopefully give us an understanding of what we're capable of. If you don't like my choice of buildings, do your own damn math. But I'll try to be fair with my build order, striking a balance between raw income and other useful building characteristics.

I'll have 3 different projections; if we spend science here, if we spend economy, and if we spend nothing and just shoot some dudes.

It's gonna take me a few minutes, so feel free to weigh in before I finish if you have any advice, suggestions or requests.

Click to shrink...

My basic idea is, where we were previously planning to focus on Reactors, we focus on trading posts instead. If we get them up to a block we can feed further overflow economy into building up to 6 trains without having to worry about building slots. Trading econ for science later can catch us up to schedule more or less (just switched the planned order of Trading Posts and Reactors). It isn't exactly what we planned, but it's roughly the same and we get to capitalize fully here. What's the point of having influence points if we're not gonna spend them on anything but More Buildings?

 

[redzonejoe]

Okay so some basic things before I go in too deep, -20 science bribe will put us at -9 Science, which means -3 science income, which means no progress on paying off the debt this turn. Next turn we'll have +1 income, so we can start paying it off... but it'll be slow. Meaning we'll probably have to convert. Yay.

The -30 to economy Will put us at -18, which means -5 economy, which means we'll have an income of... 1 going into turn 7, and then we should see a sharp increase after that, as the penality from having 4 military units is removed and the income from Hab and enclave take effect.

In both cases, the debt will be easier to pay off over time, so it's not quite as bad as it sounds. +2 becomes +3 after two turns, which becomes +4, etc. So while both look like they'd take 9 turns initially, they'd actually take (just off of basic income)

Science:
Turn 7 = -9
T8= -8
9=-7
10=-5
11=-3
12=0
13=5

Economy:
Turn 7 = -17
T8= -13
9= -8
10= -2
11 = 6
12 = 15


Economy debt is paid off quicker, but economy debt means we can't build anything other than an entertainment complex until then.

Anyways here's part 1, the simpler stuff to give you guys an overview.

My basic idea is, where we were previously planning to focus on Reactors, we focus on trading posts instead. If we get them up to a block we can feed further overflow economy into building up to 6 trains without having to worry about building slots. Trading econ for science later can catch us up to schedule more or less (just switched the planned order of Trading Posts and Reactors). It isn't exactly what we planned, but it's roughly the same and we get to capitalize fully here. What's the point of having influence points if we're not gonna spend them on anything but More Buildings?

Click to shrink...

That's a pretty powerful statement, but it's not exactly fair either. Those buildings have capabilities and opportunities of their own, it's not like buildings only ever contribute towards building more buildings.

 

[Ekans Ekans Ekans]

Okay so some basic things before I go in too deep, -20 science bribe will put us at -9 Science, which means -3 science income, which means no progress on paying off the debt this turn. Next turn we'll have +1 income, so we can start paying it off... but it'll be slow. Meaning we'll probably have to convert. Yay.

The -30 to economy Will put us at -18, which means -5 economy, which means we'll have an income of... 1 going into turn 7, and then we should see a sharp increase after that, as the penality from having 4 military units is removed and the income from Hab and enclave take effect.

In both cases, the debt will be easier to pay off over time, so it's not quite as bad as it sounds. +2 becomes +3 after two turns, which becomes +4, etc. So while both look like they'd take 9 turns initially, they'd actually take (just off of basic income)

Science:
Turn 7 = -9
T8= -8
9=-7
10=-5
11=-3
12=0
13=5

Economy:
Turn 7 = -17
T8= -13
9= -8
10= -2
11 = 6
12 = 15


Economy debt is paid off quicker, but economy debt means we can't build anything other than an entertainment complex until then.

Anyways here's part 1, the simpler stuff to give you guys an overview.


That's a pretty powerful statement, but it's not exactly fair either. Those buildings have capabilities and opportunities of their own, it's not like buildings only ever contribute towards building more buildings.

Click to shrink...

That's true indeed. However, I think that getting up to a Trading Post block, given our relations with South Woods and Xychro, probably actually open up MORE opportunities than a Reactor Block would.

 

[redzonejoe]

Short-term science bribe effects!

Spoiler: If spending 20 science influence

Turn 6:
C 2
E 12
S -9
M -3

Updated Output
C+7
E+7 (+6)
S+3 (0)
M+2 (0)

Turn 7:
9(+10)
13(+9)
-9(+1)
-3(+1)

Turn 8:
19
21
-8
-2

Build Trading post (9/20, 6/9)

14(+10)
6(+9)
-8(+1)
-2(+1)

Turn 9:
24
15
-7
-1

Build Entertainment Complex (10/20, 7/9)

4(+11)
15(+11)
-7(+2)
-1(+1)

Turn 10:
15
26
-5
0

Build Factory (11/20, 8/9)

15(+14)
1(+11)
-5(+2)
0(+2)

Turn 11:
...
You get the idea, right? Good income, bad science, gonna have to trade for science but otherwise we can start building almost anything we want. We're in a pretty good spot. Might have to worry about the delay in lab/network center/excavation, but we could probably just buy science. Who needs brains when you've got cash money to buy other people's brains, am I right?

I'll update this post with the economy and no-bribe variants, then quote the whole thing when it's done, but here's how the science bribe looks over the next couple years. Not bad.


Edit: Ooooh, the Economy bribe isn't as horrible as I thought it would be.

Spoiler: If spending 30 Economy influence

Turn 6:
C 2
E -18
S 11
M -3

Updated Output
C+7
E+7 (+1)
S+3
M+2 (0)

Turn 7:
9(+10)
-17(+4)
14(+4)
-3(+1)

Trade Culture to Economy? (All? -9C, +4E)

Turn 8:
10(+10)
-9(+6)
18(+4)
-2(+1)

Turn 9:
20
-3
24
-1

Build Entertainment Complex 3 (9/20, 6/9)

0(+10)
-3(+8)
24(+4)
-1(+1)

Turn 10:
10(+13)
5(+9)
28(+4)
0(+2)

Trade 2 culture for 1 economy

Turn 11:
21
15
32
2

Build Entertainment complex 4 (10/20, 7/9)
Build Reactor 3 (11/20, 8/9)

1(+13)
0(+9)
22(+4)
2(+2)

Turn 12:
14(+16)
9(+11)
26(+5)
4(+2)


Had to extend this one a little further than the science one to see us recover fully, but we could trade culture for a turn 13 factory, or we could not build the reactor and get a turn 12 factory instead, or...
Again, at this point, we're pretty good to build what we want. But as you can see, we're a little bit slower to build things than the other path, and our choice of buildings is a bit different. We can pull off the coveted Entertainment block for UNLIMITED POWAH tons of Culture income, and our science is in a pretty decent spot for Hab 3 buildings and onwards.

A somewhat slower build, but it's a decent contender as we can recover economy more reliably than we can recover science influence.

Edit 2: Alright, final choice is somewhat OP as expected, but there will inevitably be disasters and other choices and stuff. Though the same is true for the above options as well, keep in mind

Spoiler: Punch a dude instead of paying him

And now if we just crush some noobs instead of being nice...

Turn 6:
C 2
E 12
S 11
M -3

Updated Output
C +7
E +7 (+6)
S +3
M +2 (0)

Turn 7:
9(+10)
13(+9)
14(+4)
-3(+1)

Trade 2 econ for 1 culture

Turn 8:
20
20
18
-2

Build Ent Complex 3 (9/20, 6/9)
Build Reactor 3 (10/20, 7/9)

0(+10)
5(+9)
8(+4)
-2(+1)

Turn 9:
10(+13)
14(+11)
12(+5)
-1(+1)

Turn 10:
23
25
17
0

Build Ent complex 4 (11/20, 8/9)
Build Factory (12/20, 9/9)

3(+13)
0(+11)
17(+5)
0(+2)

Turn 11:
16(+16)
11(+14)
22(+5)
2(+2)

Full build slots reached, save for Turn 12 Hab#3

 

[veekie]

Don't forget we're facing increasing domestic unhappiness over debts too

 

[redzonejoe]

Don't forget we're facing increasing domestic unhappiness over debts too

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure how we're supposed to calculate that. There are a lot of variables that I literally cannot take into account because it's random, so I'm just painting a broad, blurry picture here and letting you guys imagine the details.




Btw above post is done, but I'm not going to bother quoting it because it's RIGHT THERE. I expected more discussion while I was typing.

 

[veekie]

Just pointing out our population is not happy at all with the economy or the military. Picking up another debt/stalled growth has consequences beyond build orders.

 

[Strypgia]

Ella would...
[X] Bribe Anna into finding a cure (-30 Economy)

She would make her opinion known that Anna's plan should be (in ascending order of convincing her)...
[1] Conquer and annex Diamond Dome
[2] Agree with the containment idea
[3] Contact the rebel groups, look into supporting them
[4] Smash up the warring parties, let the situation burn itself out quickly

 

[Seventeen]

[X] veekie

 

[Thrice-Blessed22]

[X] Promise to find a cure to the addiction (-20 Science)
[3] Agree with the containment idea
[1] Contact the rebel groups, look into supporting them
[4] Smash up the warring parties, let the situation burn itself out quickly
[2] Conquer and annex Diamond Dome

 

[Ekans Ekans Ekans]

Ella would...
[X] Bribe Anna into finding a cure (-30 Economy)

She would make her opinion known that Anna's plan should be (in ascending order of convincing her)...
[1] Conquer and annex Diamond Dome
[2] Agree with the containment idea
[3] Contact the rebel groups, look into supporting them
[4] Smash up the warring parties, let the situation burn itself out quickly

Click to shrink...

Right now there are no other votes for the Economy bribe. There are however a fair number of votes for the Science cost (it lets us build out our colony a bit more efficiently). Could you be convinced to switch to that?

 

[Powerofmind]

[X] Go along with things, finishing the invasion of Woodbanks Pond
[1] Conquer and annex Diamond Dome
[2] Agree with the containment idea
[3] Contact the rebel groups, look into supporting them
[4] Smash up the warring parties, let the situation burn itself out quickly

 

[killfr3nzy]

[X] Go along with things, finishing the invasion of Woodbanks Pond


Yeah, no.
This would go on a tangent I do not want us to follow, since we simply do not have the resources to do so.
Besides, whatever they do is clearly atrocious. We would be up to ur neck in political trouble with the rebels, our population, the addicts...

Click to shrink...

This wouldn't be us siding with the people who planned and enacted the 'heinous drug plan' but with the blameless victims, gaining us multiculturalism, gratitude, possible tech as well as highly-trained and loyal-troops to shore up our 'failings' in not expanding our barracks earlier.

Ergo;
[X] Ekans Ekans Ekans

 

[Sivantic]

[X] Go along with things, finishing the invasion of Woodbanks Pond
[1] Conquer and annex Diamond Dome
[2] Agree with the containment idea
[3] Contact the rebel groups, look into supporting them
[4] Smash up the warring parties, let the situation burn itself out quickly

 

[Ekans Ekans Ekans]

This wouldn't be us siding with the people who planned and enacted the 'heinous drug plan' but with the blameless victims, gaining us multiculturalism, gratitude, possible tech as well as highly-trained and loyal-troops to shore up our 'failings' in not expanding our barracks earlier.

Ergo;
[X] Ekans Ekans Ekans

Click to shrink...

That's the thing. We've been quite knightly to date. We've actually supported the people who needed it, we've expanded our culture considerably... and this is going to be a MUCH better solution for long-term stability if we're annexing as everyone seems to be voting. And I think that if we handle things peacefully, it'll get us a lot of credit in other sectors.

By the way @veekie I don't think the debt will be too much of an issue here. If we prevent the need for a fight it gets us all the military cred we need, and the science debt is one we can fully afford to pay off in a few years with just our current resources and passive income. We don't urgently need science yet and the build schedule is only disrupted in a minor way (and that was never going to go perfectly anyway). I really think that we should try and do this one on the up and up.

 

[killfr3nzy]

That's the thing. We've been quite knightly to date. We've actually supported the people who needed it, we've expanded our culture considerably... and this is going to be a MUCH better solution for long-term stability if we're annexing as everyone seems to be voting. And I think that if we handle things peacefully, it'll get us a lot of credit in other sectors.

By the way @veekie I don't think the debt will be too much of an issue here. If we prevent the need for a fight it gets us all the military cred we need, and the science debt is one we can fully afford to pay off in a few years with just our current resources and passive income. We don't urgently need science yet and the build schedule is only disrupted in a minor way (and that was never going to go perfectly anyway). I really think that we should try and do this one on the up and up.

Click to shrink...

Deciding the enemy leadership is shit and subsequently deciding to take over their territory and population to rule it better is Stone tradition by now.

As was stopping mid-fight to negotiate.

 

[veekie]

The schedule isn't the problem here. Public opinion within our polity is becoming increasingly strained with all the foreign assistance we're giving, and we HAVE been warned that effects beyond just the interest will accrue as debts manifest and increase.

 

[Ekans Ekans Ekans]

The schedule isn't the problem here. Public opinion within our polity is becoming increasingly strained with all the foreign assistance we're giving, and we HAVE been warned that effects beyond just the interest will accrue as debts manifest and increase.

Click to shrink...

But if we're annexing Diamond Dome (and we seemingly are) leaving this unsolved is probably going to cause even more problems and instability. Better to nip this one entirely in the bud.

We are the Bread and Circuses settlement, and we've almost entirely resolved the last set of issues at this point (Enclave's been constructed. It wraps up the previous outreach/foreign assistance nicely. And to our ultimate benefit, for that matter). As long as the wheel keeps turning, we should be fine.

 

[veekie]

But if we're annexing Diamond Dome (and we seemingly are) leaving this unsolved is probably going to cause even more problems and instability. Better to nip this one entirely in the bud.

We are the Bread and Circuses settlement, and we've almost entirely resolved the last set of issues at this point (Enclave's been constructed. It wraps up the previous outreach/foreign assistance nicely. And to our ultimate benefit, for that matter). As long as the wheel keeps turning, we should be fine.

Click to shrink...

I get that. But don't downplay possible home side backlash.

Going out, coming back to damaged mech(again) and another bunch of resources allotted to aid WILL have issues even if we might profit from it later.

 

[Powerofmind]

But if we're annexing Diamond Dome (and we seemingly are) leaving this unsolved is probably going to cause even more problems and instability. Better to nip this one entirely in the bud.

We are the Bread and Circuses settlement, and we've almost entirely resolved the last set of issues at this point (Enclave's been constructed. It wraps up the previous outreach/foreign assistance nicely. And to our ultimate benefit, for that matter). As long as the wheel keeps turning, we should be fine.

Click to shrink...

A population where the vast majority is perpetually drugged into compliance by the minority can hardly be called a culture, even after they've been weened off the stuff. Their entire lives up to that point revolved around doing what was necessary for the next fix, I wouldn't be surprised if they fully assimilated to whatever culture pushes hardest at them the moment they've gone sober. In other words, I have doubts they have a cultural identity, and if they do, that it's worth preserving in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Candesce]

We haven't gotten our Underworld Sweep report in yet, but I'll bet it's going to tell us we need a cure for those drugs whether or not we annex Diamond Dome.

And I don't think this is going to be the last time we see an attack in this form, either.

I want a lab, so the next time we have a vital research project come up we don't have to bury ourselves in debt to get someone else to do the work for us.

Also so we don't have to take other polities' words for it as to how safe their trade goods actually are. It's bad business to cripple our customers.

And if we go into science debt right now, we're not getting a lab.

We should bribe Anna with money. We're not in horrible shape, on that point.

[X] Bribe Anna into finding a cure (-30 Economy)

[1] Agree with the containment idea
[2] Contact the rebel groups, look into supporting them
[3] Smash up the warring parties, let the situation burn itself out quickly
[4] Conquer and annex Diamond Dome

 

[killfr3nzy]

A population where the vast majority is perpetually drugged into compliance by the minority can hardly be called a culture, even after they've been weened off the stuff. Their entire lives up to that point revolved around doing what was necessary for the next fix, I wouldn't be surprised if they fully assimilated to whatever culture pushes hardest at them the moment they've gone sober. In other words, I have doubts they have a cultural identity, and if they do, that it's worth preserving in any way, shape, or form.

Click to shrink...

In that case; oh well, guess we'll just win their loyalty as the culture pushing the hardest/fastest. Certainly beats having them go to someone else.

For an example of what kind of people we'll be getting, read the update again and see the multiple times where we praise their discipline and talent, and the actions/attitude of the field soldiery. That's who we'll be aiming for, not the crazy and morally bankrupt commanders.

@Candesce made a good point about the drug and its future permutations being a very likely long-term problem whether we take in anybody or not, as noted in the update where we feared our decadent civilians getting hooked; we should work to find a cure regardless of our other actions.

 

[Arbit]

[X] Promise to find a cure to the addiction (-20 Science)
[1] Conquer and annex Diamond Dome
[2] Agree with the containment idea
[3] Contact the rebel groups, look into supporting them
[4] Smash up the warring parties, let the situation burn itself out quickly

 

[Strypgia]

Right now there are no other votes for the Economy bribe. There are however a fair number of votes for the Science cost (it lets us build out our colony a bit more efficiently). Could you be convinced to switch to that?

Click to shrink...

Possibly, but redzonejoe's analysis showing we'd pay off an economic lane faster than the science one is pretty persuasive. Why should I shift?