Isn't this that testing?
Uh...why the fuck would Anna run completely untested technology on her granddaughter?

Alpha testing no. You have lab rats for that. This is Beta release, use in a live environment by trusted individuals, with major concerns already eliminated in the Alpha, but needing to be stress tested in a real environment to see the interactions.
 
Uh...why the fuck would Anna run completely untested technology on her granddaughter?

Alpha testing no. You have lab rats for that. This is Beta release, use in a live environment by trusted individuals, with major concerns already eliminated in the Alpha, but needing to be stress tested in a real environment to see the interactions.
Testing on rats and the first few people you can persuade to actually use a torture cube isn't gonna screen extensively for the mental disorders it can cause.
What testing they have done is likely not the 5-10 years of use people want to do to take us to cap willpower.
 
Uh...why the fuck would Anna run completely untested technology on her granddaughter?

Alpha testing no. You have lab rats for that. This is Beta release, use in a live environment by trusted individuals, with major concerns already eliminated in the Alpha, but needing to be stress tested in a real environment to see the interactions.
As such, the worst we can expect are critical failures causing severe reactions, same as any drug with a rare side-effect. A lot of the 'worst-case' argument against the cube falls flat when that's properly considered. The worst we could see for the implants probably fall under the umbrella of mood swings and personality changes, with particulars for each respectively being moderate sensory confusion, absent-minded behavior and forgetfulness, and moderate paranoia.
 
Testing on rats and the first few people you can persuade to actually use a torture cube isn't gonna screen extensively for the mental disorders it can cause.
What testing they have done is likely not the 5-10 years of use people want to do to take us to cap willpower.
Anna is head of state.

She has plenty of people who'd do it for favors, for pay, for punishment or for loyalty. That's what the lab staff are for
 
As such, the worst we can expect are critical failures causing severe reactions, same as any drug with a rare side-effect. A lot of the 'worst-case' argument against the cube falls flat when that's properly considered. The worst we could see for the implants probably fall under the umbrella of mood swings and personality changes, with particulars for each respectively being moderate sensory confusion, absent-minded behavior and forgetfulness, and moderate paranoia.
I expect serious problems on anything under a 50 after + willpowerx2
Crit fail (meaning nat 1, right?) could potentially be severe psychosis
Anna is head of state.

She has plenty of people who'd do it for favors, for pay, for punishment or for loyalty. That's what the lab staff are for
And since we have reason to want it now she's letting us be one of those people.
 
I expect serious problems on anything under a 50 after + willpowerx2
Crit fail (meaning nat 1, right?) could potentially be severe psychosis

And since we have reason to want it now she's letting us be one of those people.
Again, why would Anna give us something that has a 1 in 100 chance of causing a psychotic break requiring permanent institutionalization? Is she retarded? Do you think she's retarded? Do you think the implants have equivalently serious drawbacks? Because if you don't, we're getting back into the double-standard argument bull that I just put forward a clear argument against.
 
Again, why would Anna give us something that has a 1 in 100 chance of causing a psychotic break requiring permanent institutionalization? Is she retarded? Do you think she's retarded? Do you think the implants have equivalently serious drawbacks? Because if you don't, we're getting back into the double-standard argument bull that I just put forward a clear argument against.
I think they have serious drawbacks, but that the one that specifically calls out additional side effects is worse. It says in use, but if the side effect is to precipitate mental health issues then it stopping only keeps things from getting worse, rather than reversing damage. Sure, if they hit when we have high willpower then we can work through them, but if they hit early we could be trapped.

I think the problems with Pedagogical are less likely, since heavy use of nightmare is intended and no special side effect warning exists on Pedagogical. It will likely weaken us versus mental attacks, but I think that's acceptable if we can better deal with everything else in our life due to the enhanced learning speed. Plus, if there's actually a mastermind, it might be practically impossible, even with the nightmare cube, to have more willpower than it within, say, 20 years.
Yes, though, I think there's maybe a 20% chance with Pedagogical of complications, with maybe a 40% chance of any complications not being things we can solve short term. Overall I think it's somewhat safer and that the bad results are far less distasteful.

She'd do it because the alternative is giving us no options and the Stones have a family history of taking risks to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Do you not think Anna had at least a 1% chance of death when she replaced her limbs?
 
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Nobody can duplicate reaver tech, and assuming another faction has the capability to create psychoactive machinery that can be masked as Reaver is even more outlandish. We can't shape the wraithbone material, and multiple pieces wouldn't fit the usual aesthetic for something innocuous like a lure.

Had we recovered an intact specimen, sure, I'd be willing to rule out human involvement, but what was recovered was a wrecked husk. It's a lot more plausible that a dandriss or psyker focused polity managed to either design a basic lure de novo or engineer one based on the basic principles of Reaver tech and disguise it enough that it's wreckage could fool somebody expecting to find Reaver tech. The Authority was fooling around with improvised psyker tech decades ago. The Belters actually have functioning psyker dampeners. The fact that we even recovered anything at all speaks against Reaver involvement since we weren't the ones to destroy the piece and the Reavers would either recover it entirely or not care about it at all instead of just rigging it with an incomplete self-destruct leaving incriminating evidence behind after going to all the trouble of hiding their involvement in the first place.

This smells like somebody trying to make it look like Reavers. The most likely culprits are a human faction, or the Exodites. The Exodites might have some reason to want the crazy guy taken care of, but they also have good reason not to harm Green Owl citizens and especially Stones while trusting that any recovered tech will be summarily destroyed. That would explain them going out of their way to dissuade the character from interfering without harming her, then leave behind a clue to prevent her from being held accountable internally without making their involvement known externally.
 
Had we recovered an intact specimen, sure, I'd be willing to rule out human involvement, but what was recovered was a wrecked husk. It's a lot more plausible that a dandriss or psyker focused polity managed to either design a basic lure de novo or engineer one based on the basic principles of Reaver tech and disguise it enough that it's wreckage could fool somebody expecting to find Reaver tech. The Authority was fooling around with improvised psyker tech decades ago. The Belters actually have functioning psyker dampeners. The fact that we even recovered anything at all speaks against Reaver involvement since we weren't the ones to destroy the piece and the Reavers would either recover it entirely or not care about it at all instead of just rigging it with an incomplete self-destruct leaving incriminating evidence behind after going to all the trouble of hiding their involvement in the first place.

This smells like somebody trying to make it look like Reavers. The most likely culprits are a human faction, or the Exodites. The Exodites might have some reason to want the crazy guy taken care of, but they also have good reason not to harm Green Owl citizens and especially Stones while trusting that any recovered tech will be summarily destroyed. That would explain them going out of their way to dissuade the character from interfering without harming her, then leave behind a clue to prevent her from being held accountable internally without making their involvement known externally.
Ehh, I trust Anna and her investigators to make these judgements. If they say it's consistent with Reaver activity then how can we have enough information to dispute that?
 
And since we have reason to want it now she's letting us be one of those people.
You don't give top secret experimental gear which are capable of destroying your most likely heir by random chance while they are in a public position.

Heck, we know that particular piece of tech was already being developed while Elle's mom is still a kid.
 
You don't give top secret experimental gear which are capable of destroying your most likely heir by random chance while they are in a public position.

Heck, we know that particular piece of tech was already being developed while Elle's mom is still a kid.
You do on a deathworld when they're being targeted by aliens and this could make the difference.
It's like saying you don't give a new chemo treatment to a state Governor. Why the hell not if it's better?
I just think one of the experimental options here is a lot better than the other. I think nightmare is meant to be a long-term option and people won't use it like that.
 
@Powerofmind, I realised that the check uses statx2 pretty much immediately after I posted and edited my post. So I get your point on that.


I am left to say that, again, double-standard argument won't get you anywhere. If Anna wouldn't give us implants that had a chance of catastrophic failure or serious rejection drawbacks, why would she give us the nightmare cube if it could produce such extremely debilitating side-effects when used correctly? You can't argue that one choice is safe with sunshine, rainbows, and kittens on the premise that Anna wouldn't give it to us if it wasn't like that, and at the same time argue that the other choice will almost definitely kill baby Jesus because Anna apparently has no scruples.

Alright, lets not get mired in a mud fight where we both yell "Hypocrite!" at each other. Let me reiterate that I never said that the Nightmare cube could cause extreme psychosis, nor did I say that it could cause Ella to be locked in a psychic induced coma. If you read my post I specifically stated that my worries are on how even mild mental traumas as well as the other side effects might be more problematic then the side-effects of the other options. I also specifically stated that all options had drawbacks, only that the cube had a larger one. In fact, if you posit that the Cube is the fastest way to solve our current psychic problem (i.e, largest benefit), wouldn't it make sense to you that it also had the largest drawback compared to the other two?

What I did say is that although the Nightmare cube could be turned off, it interacts directly with our psyche, and compared to another aspect of the human body and consciousness, the human psyche is the hardest to measure, understand, and thus the hardest to directly treat or rehabilitate. The term "experimental" becomes much more dangerous then, since everyone's psyche is abstract and it is much harder to quantify. That means the chance that we stumble on an unknown factor when using the cube is larger then with the implants. At least with the implants, any possible resulting defect can be traced to a chemical imbalance or a physical change in Ella's body. Since we assume that she won't be turned into a vegetable, she'll be in a position to at the very least mitigate it.

The cube on the other hand, causes mental traumas and mood swings, not defects and eccentricities. Mood swings are random, traumas are by their very definition hard to overcome, hence the word trauma.

I also find it curious how you completely ignored my point on how we might be weaker to psychic attacks when we are using the cube. Some of my fears were unfound, rendering my arguments based on them invalid, but that doesn't mean you could sweep aside all my other arguments by hand-waving them away.
 
Ehh, I trust Anna and her investigators to make these judgements. If they say it's consistent with Reaver activity then how can we have enough information to dispute that?

Remember that our nation was founded by a failed assassination attempt on our great grandma, AND she then made nice with the people who tried to kill her. :p

What Anna's people discovered might not be what she's telling us.
 
The phylactery implant is ten points on a check. That might as well be fried beans compared to a reaver mastermind, who will be a constant and annoying thorn for at least a decade, if not more. That leaves it to the two 'accelerated learning' tools to be the only good choices to deal with anything worse than reaver fodder.

It's a poor argument to say 'this is the worst-case scenario for your thing' and then say 'it's highly unlikely for the scenario you described to happen with my thing.' No duh the worst case scenario probably won't happen. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and arguing that 'it probably won't happen' while also arguing based on the worst case scenarios in the other direction is duplicitous at best. As I said, even moderate drawbacks are pretty horrible for the pedagogue, while even the somewhat severe drawbacks for the cube are manageable, treatable conditions that don't preclude the use of the device in the future, unlike a failure with the implants. Furthermore, it's at least five times faster at reinforcing our Willpower, which more than makes up for not having the improved learning effect elsewhere in both the short and mid term. Long term, with minimal drawbacks or mitigated drawbacks, the pedagogue is very nice. But things don't like us now, so the phylactery is a band-aid at it's best that will always fall short of a further-thinking solution, and the pedagogue can't guarantee the returns we need at the same rate the cube can. Our other stats are reliable or otherwise not at the forefront of our regular checks, yet our willpower is eight and we can expect to use it at least once every other year and failures in said checks are catastrophically bad, with the first being effectively mission-killed until they left (or, we can assume, we passed a subsequent check), and the second totally removing a vote opportunity.

Tl;dr, the pedagogue is too slow and the phylactery is too rigid. The cube gives nigh-immediate rewards and can equal the phylactery early enough that we'll effectively have it in five years or less, and on the chance that it's drawbacks are too severe, we can always shut it off and let it collect dust, unlike the implants.
Yes, the line of my argument while responding to you isn't good and how I formulated it makes it worse. And I shouldn't have said the last paragraph.

As for the rest your argument, while the side effects of the Accelerator might be worse than the ones of the Cube it having side effects, at least for the lesser and moderate ones, it has a lesser likelihood of having them in the first place. Afterall the Cube outright states that it has side effects and my have drawbacks in addition to that. To me that is good enough to take the Accelerator given it's advantages and that the Reaver isn't going to be our only problem. Of course given that even that a lesser likelihood might not actually be low, taking a look at the drawbacks and deciding to not take an option based on that is valid too.

And even if we don't take the Accelerator now, I hope we can take a look at it later after it has been tested and it's side effects are known.
 
Alright, lets not get mired in a mud fight where we both yell "Hypocrite!" at each other. Let me reiterate that I never said that the Nightmare cube could cause extreme psychosis, nor did I say that it could cause Ella to be locked in a psychic induced coma. If you read my post I specifically stated that my worries are on how even mild mental traumas as well as the other side effects might be more problematic then the side-effects of the other options. I also specifically stated that all options had drawbacks, only that the cube had a larger one. In fact, if you posit that the Cube is the fastest way to solve our current psychic problem (i.e, largest benefit), wouldn't it make sense to you that it also had the largest drawback compared to the other two?

What I did say is that although the Nightmare cube could be turned off, it interacts directly with our psyche, and compared to another aspect of the human body and consciousness, the human psyche is the hardest to measure, understand, and thus the hardest to directly treat or rehabilitate. The term "experimental" becomes much more dangerous then, since everyone's psyche is abstract and it is much harder to quantify. That means the chance that we stumble on an unknown factor when using the cube is larger then with the implants. At least with the implants, any possible resulting defect can be traced to a chemical imbalance or a physical change in Ella's body. Since we assume that she won't be turned into a vegetable, she'll be in a position to at the very least mitigate it.

The cube on the other hand, causes mental traumas and mood swings, not defects and eccentricities. Mood swings are random, traumas are by their very definition hard to overcome, hence the word trauma.

I also find it curious how you completely ignored my point on how we might be weaker to psychic attacks when we are using the cube. Some of my fears were unfound, rendering my arguments based on them invalid, but that doesn't mean you could sweep aside all my other arguments by hand-waving them away.
I posit that the cube is focused into one particular area, to solve one particular type of problem. It is the phylactery, without being an implant, and being oriented towards growth rather than immediate reward. I suspect that the drawbacks are equivalently debilitating, while the use of each upgrade is focused in a particular manner. The phylactery is immediately rewarding, but ultimately useless outside of right now, before things have had a chance to escalate. It's a good piece of gear that lets you cheese through the first few Will encounters, and you don't have to maintain it (leaves personal actions open). The pedagogue is a small but constant boost to everything, but ultimately doesn't actually solve the problem this decade. We're still going to be the reavers' plaything on a string, because our innate willpower is 8 and it'll take at least four years/four actions to get it to 10, assuming cumulative success rates for continued practice. The cube is an enormous boost to one thing, but it takes a little effort to build up steam and the side-effects are more persistent while in use (because AN wouldn't have said it has side-effects while in use if it screwed us up forever). It can easily run at twice the rate the pedagogue does, and if you feel like it, you can put that effort into other stats and training (though it's hardly advised).

I wouldn't even be surprised if it further reduced resistance. And I don't care. We're liable to fail basically every willpower check that comes from a reaver until we have our will in the middling double digits regardless of the penalty, and the cube gets us there sometime this decade as opposed to the next one over.

The options are 'no longer fail willpower checks for the immediate future (special circumstances can ignore this benefit entirely), with defects that may cause permanent losses of individual stat points', 'fail willpower checks for at least 12 personal actions' worth of willpower training (6 years minimum, 12 years expected)', with defects that may cause permanent losses of individual stat points', or 'fail willpower checks for at most 5 years, reduced by personal action allocation, with experiences that may cause negative traits to surface quickly and other minor dice roll penalties (latter only applies while in use)'.

But you're purporting them to be more similar to 'as above, with defects that might occur to cause penalties for maybe a full turn', 'as above, with defects that might occur to cause penalties for maybe a full turn', and 'fail willpower checks for at most 5 years, loss of control of character for multiple vote segments for at least a decade, all other stats risk going into the toilet, etc.'

You're still demonizing the option you don't like, and hand-waving the risks and possible losses of the ones you prefer, despite their relative permanence. "Oh, defects and personality disorders? Well we can mitigate those so they're not noticable." Yeah. Mental defects and personality disorders are easily mitigated. Let's all look at Messer, the delightfully insane nutbar that just fucking died, in part because he's a cornucopia of mental defects and personality disorders, courtesy of physically mind-altering substances. We cannot mitigate or repair massive brain trauma caused by a bad reaction, especially when the functions being offloaded to the MMI are memory or sensory input.

Edit: That was odd.
 
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