It is indeed true, a Tyrant lizard is less impactful to a campaign than being larger than normal or being able to learn kung fu. Not even knowing kung fu, just being able to. Take three to be safe. (and to prevent inbreeding when mating season starts. That won't get to be a problem until the second generation is grown up, but better to start early on that sort of thing. Also, one male, two females. And abuse Lore introduce fact for their mating cycles [the male will mate with as many females as possible, the females will raise the children, they're fine in groups if they're trained, they have clutches of 5-10 at a time...])

No no no.

Two Tyrant Lizards, one Tyrant Lizard totem Lunar. That way it can change its genetic code every few generations, allowing you to prevent physical inbreeding while also getting access to Moontouched Minions. Lunars can do that after all, they only exist to help solars do their thing and pretend to be important while they fight over the Caul (A first age toilet no one else can work out how to use). Its true...

A lore fact told me so!
 
And I certainly don't respect the fact that most fantasy novels write 1600s absolute monarchies and claim that they're feudal.
The saddest part is that a lot of these writers could do better just by playing a couple of games of Crusader Kings 2 first. I'm totally serious - the game does an amazing job of driving home just how precarious it is to be a king in a feudal structure, and how easy it is to become an incredibly terrible person in search of power.

 
The saddest part is that a lot of these writers could do better just by playing a couple of games of Crusader Kings 2 first. I'm totally serious - the game does an amazing job of driving home just how precarious it is to be a king in a feudal structure, and how easy it is to become an incredibly terrible person in search of power.

You're not using diplomacy to it's fullest extent if you don't word your peace treaties so they're with the current king so ending them is just an assassination away.
 
Yeah, and I ran two for something like a year and several months, respectively. Care to make an actual argument?
Seriously, the shittiness of the BP/XP split is mathematically verifiable. You can check the work.
Speaking of mathematical verification, I know of the method of reducing all traits back down to one (or zero for Abilities) and counting the XP 'refunded' as a math method of verifying optimisation. But what numbers of XP are considered fallen-behind, normal/decent/average, above-average/good etc. 2½e?

The saddest part is that a lot of these writers could do better just by playing a couple of games of Crusader Kings 2 first. I'm totally serious - the game does an amazing job of driving home just how precarious it is to be a king in a feudal structure, and how easy it is to become an incredibly terrible person in search of power.

Hmm. The picture gives the impression that in its world, every king-wannabe is forced to take a Manipulation-oriented build and/or (to use a Mass Effect term) a Renegade-style approach to solving problems along the way. I wonder if I should start regretting that I took a Cha5 Man1 App5 build for my aspiring empire-builder character.
 
Last edited:
Speaking of mathematical verification, I know of the method of reducing all traits back down to one (or zero for Abilities) and counting the XP 'refunded' as a mathod of verifying optimisation. But what numbers of XP are considered fallen-behind, normal/decent/average, above-average/good etc. 2½e?
I don't think anyone has outlined specific figures, but an explanation of the optimal use of BP to minimize XP costs is floating around somewhere. I think it's basically buying up non-favored Abilities, trying to put Attributes at 1 or 5, and buying up Willpower.
Then fill everything out with XP.
 
Hmm. The picture gives the impression that in its world, every king-wannabe is forced to take a Manipulation-oriented build and/or (to use a Mass Effect term) a Renegade-style approach to solving problems along the way. I wonder if I should start regretting that I took a Cha5 Man1 App5 build for my aspiring empire-builder character.

It depends on how you intend to work. Cha 5, App 5 can build you an empire as you unite tribes into your banner through epic speeches, leading from the front and sheer force of personality. It will let you convince the bullied populace that the corrupt tyrant can and will be overthrone, or win the right to marry the prince. It will aide your allies in shrugging off fear and hatred, and to do what you wish.

Manip 5 and App 5 on the other hand will steal you an empire, as you politely inform the general that if he doesn't reconsider your offer you won't tell him what you did with his daughter, only that it will end like his wife if he denies you for a third time. It'll let you slip into the Kings bed so that your poisoned words can twist him against those tribes that make up his most loyal core of supporters, and into letting him appoint your own trusted friends into important positions. Manip 5 will let you smile sincerely at those that you call friend, even as you measure the distance for your knife.
 
Yeah, I'm still not a fan of how Charisma and Manipulation basically do the same job of "convincing people", and are only really differentiated into "convincing people by being heroic" and "convincing people by being a prick".

On a lighter note, Kerisgame 42! In which our little Keris is all grown up and making long-term strategic plans for her pirate empire, surprises Testolagh somewhat with the casual mention that yes, she is actually a master alchemist and startlingly smart in some areas (people are frequently surprised by this for some reason), wrestles with demon-wrangling, and then gets well and truly hammered as Sasi has her baby. Or, well. Several hours after Sasi has her baby, since they're ten thousand miles away from her.

Some highlights from afterward.
Aleph: the problem with having kerishair
Aleph: is that in this sort of situation
Aleph: you have ten limbs
Aleph: and only two of them are legs
Aleph: and five of the others are stuck under your bed partner.
Strypgia: And they're all hung over
Aleph: Yes.
Aleph: ... I'm actually kind of impressed. Keris is "only" Endurance 3, but she's got the Kimbery Mythos Exultant. She can burn off alcohol by the round, and she still somehow drank enough that she may have passed out from Bashing.
Aleph: What the hell did they move onto after the rice wine and what I have a nasty feeling was a series of homebrewed wine-and-E5-wyld-giant-chalcanth shots?

...

EarthScorpion: Sasi did not plan this out well. She had a perfectly calculated date and everything which accounted for the fact that clearly being in shadow form would delay the pregnancy
EarthScorpion: ... then she didn't properly account for the fact that all her children were around two weeks early in a 9 month pregnancy
Aleph: lawl
EarthScorpion: So in a 15 month one, the baby decided to show up even earlier
Aleph: Hah.
Aleph: Oh, Sasi.

...

Aleph: Oh god
Aleph: I do hope they didn't send any Infallible Messengers back.
EarthScorpion: Oh, don't worry. By the time it arrived, they were drunk enough that sorcery was beyond them
Aleph: ... yes, but
EarthScorpion: and Keris couldn't find the backpack
EarthScorpion: when they were planning to sing a song to Sasi
Aleph: oh good
Aleph: ...
Aleph: do they know that?
Aleph: Or do they just remember planning to sing the song?
EarthScorpion: They do not as of yet know that
Aleph: oh dear
EarthScorpion: Keris remembers planning the song, yes
Aleph: ooohhhh dear
EarthScorpion: It was actually quite a good song because she's musical
Aleph: Yes, but she was very drunk.
Aleph: The lyrics may have involved threesomes.
EarthScorpion: oh, no one said it was tasteful
EarthScorpion: just it was well-composed
EarthScorpion: and lyrical
Aleph: kerissssss
Aleph: stop using your talents to make beautifully composed and stunningly well-performed bawdy trash

...

EarthScorpion: Oh, and if they look, they'll find out that they didn't do much in here. But there are other rooms where they were both anima flaring
EarthScorpion: : D
EarthScorpion: Things are going to be
EarthScorpion: awwwwwwwkward
Aleph: : D
Aleph: Testolagh: "... why is this room full of flowers?"
Aleph: Keris: "Ah. That was me. Sorry."
Aleph: Testolagh: "... they're growing out of the ceiling."
Aleph: Keris: "Huh. They normally only grow where I tread or tou- oh."
Aleph: Testolagh: "What did you do, roll over every surface in the room?"
Aleph: Keris: "... it looks like it?"
Aleph: (Yes. She wanted to see how many flowers she could get into one room.)

...

EarthScorpion: Keris: "It's a good-news-bad-news thing. We did not have sex. However... uh, we were certainly doing the things which would have led up to it if... um, the alcohol hadn't taken us both out."
Aleph: Keris: "Well, it took me out. I'm assuming that it took you out, but I think you were handling it better than I was."
EarthScorpion: ((He got 3 successes on 12 dice. Apparently he was not.))

...

Aleph: Haven't written the new demons up yet, but my notes so far are:
> Ironbelly toads.
> Cart-sized toads, ram horns, sticky tongues; capture-demons.
> Voracious eaters of Wyld-stuff; devour until full then keep them in their bellies to digest fairly slowly.
> Will eat other things if no chaos available - especially each other, if there's not enough food.
> Can't eat things of great value - gold, gems, rare spices or antique possessions - without permission, and so spit them back out after swallowing something. Will do almost anything for permission to consume such a treasure, as they taste even more delicious than Wyld-spirits.
> High maintenance; big appetites, need constant meals.
 
... it's a shame they're toads, or they'd make excellent mining-moles.
Adult toads can eat 1000 insects in a single day; an appreciable fraction of their body mass. Keris wanted things that would devour raksha rapidly and ravenously. She was actually rather clever in making sure they'd eat each other before starting to devour everything else in the absence of faeries (even if it does make them an utter pain to manage), because otherwise they'd devastate ecosystems whenever they got hungry.

It just... means that unless you're using them every day to feed on a fairly constant diet of raksha that you can keep coming, you're going to have to manage them quite carefully to stop them cannibalising each other. :p
 
...

You know its likely a good thing that Lunars can't get supernal ablities or attributes..

Because otherwise I'd be busy planning my armies of moontouched Tyrant Lizard beastmen.
 
... it's a shame they're toads, or they'd make excellent mining-moles.
It just... means that unless you're using them every day to feed on a fairly constant diet of raksha that you can keep coming, you're going to have to manage them quite carefully to stop them cannibalising each other. :p

That is why you have Neomah.

Grab some of their flesh, throw in a little mole, a pinch of this and a pinch of that then revel in your newly jailbroken 'mole-toads' that theoretically have enough hybrid vigor to do the best of both worlds. Aassumingly you can train them quickly enough. And that your neomah doesn't end up taking your design back with you to Malfeas. And that there isn't some other demonic traits that you accidentally mix in by mistake. Or that the resulting beast doesn't eat you along the way, or develops a taste only for the most expensive items and leaves behind worthless garbage or...
 
In a previous edition. Which he has since disowned.
The problem here is that none of the reasons Mørke has disowned 2e are to do with his characterisation of the Sun. Holden has granted that trying to stat Sol was a bad idea, but writing out who he is? Nope.

Now, the devs have said that they want to step back from writing up important figures like the Incarna as part of their focus (obsession) with 'mystery', so this is unlikely to be an overt problem. The question, then, is how much unconscious influence Mørke's conception of Sol as Shiny Sun Jesus will have on setting material that references Ignis Dei. A good writer can be trusted to avoid that.

I don't trust Mørke.
 
Yeah, I'm still not a fan of how Charisma and Manipulation basically do the same job of "convincing people", and are only really differentiated into "convincing people by being heroic" and "convincing people by being a prick".
I'm not sure that's the actual (simplified) differentiation of the two. After all, genuinely threatening to burn the village and crucify the citizens unless they say where the immaculates went is still Charisma. While using specious intimidation when one lacks either the willingness or the means to back up one's threat is still Manipulation. As is telling your friend that her new red dress doesn't make her fat because you don't want to hurt a friend's feelings (even though it does). At least that's the impression I have over the years from exposure from ST and ST-derived systems. Maybe my memory is tainted with house-ruling/house-interpretation influences.

Now, the split definitely was mishandled some times. (Though I suppose the mishandling of Appearance was worse, with it being useless all the time except during Exalted 2-2½e, maybe 1e, when it's übercool, and now reportedly useless once again in Ex3e.) But I do like the fact that there is some differentiation of approaches even for characters who use the same skills. You seem to be fiddling with alternative attributes; what ways of differentiating approaches to influencing people do you see as viable (including those that differ from the ones you use in your game)?

That pitch is a Traditions mage whining about how the Technocracy doesn't let them fireball people.

No, literally, it's a holdover from when Exalted was the prehistory of the World of Darkness. It is literally a Traditions mage whining.
Thought a bit more about it: it seems to also fit in with the Changeling view of history/society. It almost reads as a direct opposite of the description of Banality by WW's wiki. In fact, I'm wondering if perhaps Changeling's vision of the past is closer to Exalted than Mage's, because Mage seems more elitist (Mages can do magic because only they are enlightened), while in Exalted, magic is much more ubiquitous (Thaumaturgy, lesser wonders etc.). Though seeing Sidhe as the amnesiac Raksha nobles sure would make Sidhe less appealing to many people.

Maybe my impressions are wrong.
 
Last edited:
But I do like the fact that there is some differentiation of approaches even for characters who use the same skills.
... yeah, uh. The mechanics are, ultimately, an abstraction to give the game some structure and allow adjudication of success beyond "I kill you!", "nuh uh!", "uh huh!". If your end result and simplified method - "Persuade X to do Y", "I make a speech that convinces him" - are the same, the differences come from the exact content of your method, which is where the roleplaying part of a roleplaying game comes in. Now, you can sometimes call for different dice rolls. If my goal is "get into the compound", I could do it by hopping over the back wall or by disguising myself as a servant and walking through the gate in broad daylight. Those would be different pools, as the end goal is the same but the methods are different.

But the thing about Charisma and Manipulation is that they're really not very different. The simple methods are mostly the same; "talk to people and make them want to do what you want". Much like Strength and Dexterity, you don't tend to get charismatic people who don't know how to play off people's intimacies and so on - that's what makes them charismatic, whether it's conscious or not. Heck, ask half a dozen people what exactly the difference between the two is. Most will say something like "well Charisma is being truthful and a forceful personality, and Manipulation is being sneaky and lying a lot", and that's a stunt difference, not something that should be coded into the mechanics. It makes no sense for someone charismatic enough to raise armies with their speeches to be completely unable to use that force of personality to lie to someone's face and project honesty and trustworthiness so well that they're believed... and yet because of the Cha/Man split and the fact that there's no point buying two "persuade people to do things" skills when you can manage perfectly well with one, most of them are.

Differentiation of approach is the whole point of roleplay. If you're at the point where characters with the same stats are one-true-pathed and you can't differentiate their approaches like that because Charisma 5 Manipulation 1 dictates that they can't lie at all or persuade people in any of these ways using force of personality because those are Manipulation actions, you are at the point of 1e Lunars where they recommend you give your Full Moons different weapons so that you can tell them apart.
 
It makes no sense for someone charismatic enough to raise armies with their speeches to be completely unable to use that force of personality to lie to someone's face and project honesty and trustworthiness so well that they're believed... and yet because of the Cha/Man split and the fact that there's no point buying two "persuade people to do things" skills when you can manage perfectly well with one, most of them are.
This is a real deal-breaker for me, I should note, because it means characters like Moist Von Lipwig or Locke Lamora get shafted at chargen by the mechanics, and that should just never be the case. The charismatic con-man should not be nearly so hard to pull off compared to like, Grima Wormtongue or whatever conception of Lying Liar Who Lies the system seems to run on.
 
Adult toads can eat 1000 insects in a single day; an appreciable fraction of their body mass. Keris wanted things that would devour raksha rapidly and ravenously. She was actually rather clever in making sure they'd eat each other before starting to devour everything else in the absence of faeries (even if it does make them an utter pain to manage), because otherwise they'd devastate ecosystems whenever they got hungry.

It just... means that unless you're using them every day to feed on a fairly constant diet of raksha that you can keep coming, you're going to have to manage them quite carefully to stop them cannibalising each other. :p
What that sounds like to me is "drop them into Wyld zones and let them feast until you need them again, because fuck raksha."
 
I'm pretty sure this is terrible advice likely to get your character killed.
No, the Immaculate monks, as written, are pretty weak for what they claim to be (ie, five of them is a real threat to a circle of Solars). They also have a lot of artifacts. Unless your ST powers them up or Zerg-rush's them, a competent circle will easily defeat them (note, to be competent, be a sorcerer and summon lots of demons. Still the best spell around.).

The advice was meant to be funny because it was both somewhat valid, and completely stupid due to the ST throwing the book at you.
 
Last edited:
No, the Immaculate monks, as written, are pretty weak for what they claim to be (ie, five of them is a real threat to a circle of Solars). They also have a lot of artifacts. Unless your ST powers them up or Zerg-rush's them, a competent circle will easily defeat them (note, to be competent, be a sorcerer and summon lots of demons. Still the best spell around.).

The advice was meant to be funny because it was both somewhat valid, and completely stupid due to the ST throwing the book at you.
I thought that they were supposed to be a threat to a single Solar. A full circle would get likely get a couple groups of these guys, plus a small army of mortal retainers. And that is only if they aren't at the head of a legit legion.
 
No, the Immaculate monks, as written, are pretty weak for what they claim to be (ie, five of them is a real threat to a circle of Solars). They also have a lot of artifacts. Unless your ST powers them up or Zerg-rush's them, a competent circle will easily defeat them (note, to be competent, be a sorcerer and summon lots of demons. Still the best spell around.).

The advice was meant to be funny because it was both somewhat valid, and completely stupid due to the ST throwing the book at you.
Hrm, I had been told by someone I trust who is pretty good at mechanics that the Immaculates are rather powerful and are a threat to a Solar 1v1 and a serious threat in a group as 2v1 or more.
 
Last edited:
No, the Immaculate monks, as written, are pretty weak for what they claim to be (ie, five of them is a real threat to a circle of Solars). They also have a lot of artifacts. Unless your ST powers them up or Zerg-rush's them, a competent circle will easily defeat them (note, to be competent, be a sorcerer and summon lots of demons. Still the best spell around.).

The advice was meant to be funny because it was both somewhat valid, and completely stupid due to the ST throwing the book at you.

I thought that they were supposed to be a threat to a single Solar. A full circle would get likely get a couple groups of these guys, plus a small army of mortal retainers. And that is only if they aren't at the head of a legit legion.

I mean, like most things it depends. Obviously the shikari in the book aren't going to be taking out a Dawn combat monster on their own. They are, however, very credible threats to secondary combatants and so a full 5v5 between the shikari and your typical starting solar circle (who wouldn't all be primary combatants) would be fairly close I think because while the Dawn would likely wreck any given Immaculate, she's also having to compensate for her allies.
 
Back
Top