Wait seriously? Someone needs to talk about this issue because it doesn't sound like a good thing.
General Exalted Thread
- Thread starter Aleph
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Wait seriously? Someone needs to talk about this issue because it doesn't sound like a good thing.
Third edition actually does model this a bit, though I'd have to look at it a bit more to say how much it does so. Essentially, you have separate defenses against actions meant to persuaded you and actions meant to find stuff out about you. Manipulation handles the latter set.
I think it also separates what attributes can be paired with what social actions, but I'm not sure at the moment.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Tyrant Lizards can be taken as starting familiars, and Quick Characters aren't a good guide of how powerful a proper version of them should be as an opponent.
Violation of CC 4.c "Troll, i.e., intentionally posting specifically to get a rise out of certain posters;" --Apocal
I... would not place too much stock in notanautomaton's opinions after the recent kerfluffle he had with his Exalted heartbreaker on rpg.net.
I really, really don't trust him to be objective or provide a dispassionate analysis after that display.
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notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
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Wait, you're telling me that it's balanced for my 3-dot familiar (reminder: you get 10 dots of merit at chargen) should be a match for an entire other chargen character?
In what possible universe is that balanced?
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
To be fair, a 3 dot army, sufficent bodyguards or a properly powerful retainer could be a match for many non combat characters at Chargen, but yes there is a slight difference in strength between Tyrant Lizard and all the other options. I'm just sad that Mice of the Sun are no longer available
You could start out with a warstrider or the Crown of Thunders under normal chargen in 1E or 2E, and break the campaign that way.
notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
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Yes, though it took a higher proportional amount of chargen points and did not actually provide something that could chump another character while still leaving me capable of doing all my actions.
And that was still stupid unbalanced bullshit.
*nods* Which is why it's the ST's job to look at the merits the players took and overrule the things that don't work for the game they run.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
Tyrant Lizards are three dot familiars. They are better than anything else you can get for three background dots (being larger than average is four dots, for instance). You might as well take three, and contribute more to combat than the Dawn while being noncombat focused other than five dots in survival and a Tyrant Lizard specialty. If your Tyrant Lizard army ever stops being effective against all your combat based problems, you can just buy a few Survival charms. Or glare at the Dawn and tell him to hold up his end of things.
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The point is that it's up to an ST to decide whether that would fly or not.
I could make a character with Influence 5: The Realm at chargen and just win that way too! But I would get slapped silly if I try to pull that.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
If you took a character with influence 5: The Realm, they would have to be in the Realm, playing at the dangerous Game of Houses (like Game of Thrones, but copyright issues) while hiding the fact that they, and five of their closest friends, are Anathema. If you're playing a Realm-focused game, that would be fine. If you weren't playing a Realm-focused game, that would also be fine, so long as it's justified in character, as it would probably mean that your character was an important player in Realm politics before they Exalted, and are now in exile so that they don't get found out.
It does not 'win the game' in any way shape or form. It provides interesting plot hooks, in a way that three Tyrant Lizards don't.
notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
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No, you couldn't.
You know what "ruling a city-state and influencing neighboring principalities" isn't? Having a highly significant individual effect on the Realm. Influence has questions of scale built-in.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Well yeah, the Influence Background is meant to only represent a slice of an entire direction, not the entire thing at once. And even then I could think of situations where I'd allow a Solar to have an Influence of 3-4 in the realm at creation. Of course, they'd need to be incredibly fucking careful not to reveal themselves accidentally, and as they'd need to stay in the Realm almost full time to maintain that much Influence, the entire game would likely be based around it.
Tyrant Lizards are awesome, but its quite easy to have an agreement between player and ST on when it is or isn't appropriate to keep them around.
I'd disagree there. I can think of plenty of times where three Tyrant Lizards could be used for plot hooks. When dealing with several tribal cultures for example, a man who could walk up to something they consider a god worthy of worship and scratch its belly/make it preform tricks on command would be an impressive 'figurehead' who could rally together a fairly large army quickly enough. If he can make the unstoppable Demon Lizards bow before him after all, imagine what he'd do to the puny weak people of the trees.
Throw in a few prophecies that the circle might play up, the occasional 'fake' dream created by the party sorcerers and a strong enduring friendship with the Tyrant Lizard Avatar, and you could have more then a little pulp style fun striding barechested across the battlefield to crush puny lunar barbarian kings.
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samdamandias
Apprentice Plane Wizard
If I was STing, and you wanted nine dots of Tyrant Lizards, you can bet I'm going to make you work for them. How do you feed them? How do keep them under control in a city? How do you move around inconspicuously with a small pack of Tyrant Lizards?
(The answer is probably "I went Supernal Survival")
As @notanautomaton said, if you want Influence: The Realm 5, your ST should make you work for it, and work it. I'm going to make you politick to within an inch of your life, and then get up and politick some more because you are Exalted and so the bar is a wee bit higher.
Again my point is that an ST has to approve my taking those 5 points of Influence, just as she would have to approve of me taking a Tyrant Lizard at chargen, and would require a sufficient justification to have and maintain both.
Merits cover a wide spectrum of power and influence, and if an ST decides that a final boss level monster is appropriate for the game they want to play, go nuts.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
Why would I want to be inconspicuous? I have three tyrant lizards. Half their purpose it to attract Wyld Hunts in order to loot. And as apex predators capable of tracking across directions, they can hunt for themselves/alongside the character. Or I can just take over a city, because Tyrant Lizards are pretty solid army-killers, then use the tribute to feed them.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Honestly, a Tyrant Lizard isn't really a fitting final boss for a Solar game.
For Heroic Mortals hell yes, and even for low level Dragonblooded perhaps, but not for a Solar Circle.
Now Raksi's pet Tyrant Lizard, sorcerously enhanced to breathe fire and destroy cities with a beat of its mighty wings maybe, whose scales are orichalcum and whose claws make Beloved Adorai weep in jealously perhaps, but not a stock standard Tyrant Lizard.
Facing down a Tyrant Lizard isn't a Solar Challenge... its an Origin Story.
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If I were feeling particularly cruel, I'd have gone with "just because they're familiars doesn't make them tame." They love you of course, but just about everyone else could be seen as food or an irritant if you don't keep a close eye on them.
Also what happens when superstitious folk far removed from the East start worshipping your familiar as some sort of God or Demon
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
'Kay. I do, because a chargen Dawn in 2e would flatten a Tyrant Lizard, and this was something I felt was a very cool dynamic. It created a visceral sense of coolness when, as a new player, I realised that my fresh Exalt was already capable of chumping a freaking T-rex.
This is, I think, much more important and interesting than being able to have a challenging fight against what is, I remind you, a mindless animal. Like, you're not going to tell interesting stories and climactic battles against a random jungle predator.
Certainly you might tell stories that involve a climactic battle against a tyrant lizard, but I bet you that'll be because the lizard is a tool of an actual, you know, character... At which point if you want to make it a challenging fight, oh hey, you've got a character who relies on a tyrant lizard to fight for him, that sounds like a ready-made excuse for familiar charms/dinosaur steroids/mutations/whatever.
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azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
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I think the part you're not really grokking about your opponents is that they don't think it's appropriate for tyrant lizards to be a "final boss level monster".
I agree, by the way.
Well, okay, but why does that mean there's no place for a Martial Art about wrestling with the assistance of oil?
Also, my text for the Ink-shooting artifact gun ALWAYS included battlefield alteration. As a basic power, no less, rather than a full-out Evocation.
I'm not sure why I would want to create a sorcerous merit for producing or shooting ink with just my body, as this is not a feature displayed by any Inkling. It was included in the Martial Art just because it FIT.
See, the problem with that is the ability to splatter a T-Rex with a flick of your wrist is the reason why Familiar used to be a shit background.
Not to mention really negating the utility a Lunar would have from turning into said Rex.
Fine, so you just conquered a city and are extorting its populace to feed your pets. You know what that is? A plot hook!