There are more than a few systems that are good for Play By Post.

Amber Diceless Roleplaying, for example, is great. As is Nobilis.

Heck, the Marvel Universe Roleplaying Game was a decent little diceless game system that sunk mainly because of Marvel's unrealistic expectations of sales and would be just about perfect for a play by post system. It even literally tracks events in Panels which is easy to transfer to Posts.

What I'm saying is that randomizers slow down online play and should be avoided.
 
Which is perfectly fine as long as you assume that there is no benefit to reroll mechanics and that nothing is lost by not using them.

Personally I like them just fine!
Let's look at some reroll mechanics from the leak!
  • Reroll all of X (and Y) until X (and Y) no longer appear(s).
  • Reroll X (or Y) non-success dice.
  • Reroll as many of X as you got Y; rolling more Y on the reroll allows more rerolls of X.
  • Rolling player rerolls successes
  • Reroll non-successes.
  • Reroll any result but X.
  • Treat X on opposing roll as Y on your roll.
  • Reroll X until a success doesn't appear.
These are all general templates, not specific examples. I used Ctrl+F on "reroll" to find them. There are multiple instances of most of these.

That second to last one isn't technically a reroll, but can trigger other reroll mechanics - and requires seeing the opposing roll before you know. And that can then trigger rerolls (and your opponent might have similar mechanics). And you can force your opponent to reroll - I hope you can see how that combos with the other mechanics to be a problem.
And there's also the important point that these mechanics require taking time to figure out how many dice you're rerolling, which slows down play literally everywhere.

There is no fucking way I will ever take those mechanics even close to my old gaming group. Any occasion where they came up in any mildly complex interaction would probably stop the session for 20+ minutes while they figured it out. Given that they frequently activate in common situations (e.g. rolling a 6), that would probably happen a lot.

So, yeah, I don't give a shit if you like reroll mechanics. Ex3 has way too fucking many.

("Trying to cater to PbP is poison, and an exercise in pointless suffering" is a shitty defense when I wouldn't bring these to a Skype game, a physical game, or a Roll20 game because of how much work they add.)
 
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You know something funny? Back when the Ink Monkeys were still a thing and I was starting to homebrew, things like that were the kind of mechanics I strove towards. Interesting systemic tricks and hooks, ways to make the rules stand up and dance. Now I see my dreams realised, and what do I learn? Most of that shit is too much hassle to actually use, whatever the format.
 
"It" what? The kraken transformation, or the whole "oil wrestling" style?



The oil wrestling style isn't compatible with any weapons, not even the ink ones. Not in the sense that it has any Charms for attacking or parrying with weapons.

The synergy between the Style and the weapons is that the weapons create the kind of battlefield that the Squid/Pig Stylist excels in using, and offers a ranged attack that the Style lacks.



Again, there's more to the Style than the Kraken.

I meant all the effects. There's precedent for Evocations altering the battlefield, and giving a ranged attack is within Artifact capabilties, or even that one sorcerous merit in Bargain with an Ifrit Lord. If you wanted to, you could create your own sorcerous initiation with merit based ink attacks, evocation based slipperiness, and create a custom spell to cover the battlefield in oil.

Most of them are available at E1, actually: Snake, Tiger, White Reaper, Ebon Shadow, Silver-Voiced Nightingale, Black Claw, and Steel Devil. It's just I think Crane, Righteous Devil, and Dreaming Pearl Courtesan that require E2 - which makes me wonder if maybe they intended to reduce those to E1 as well.

I actually mean charms after the Form, but I worded that poorly. I agree that the Form should available at Essence 1, since they typically define the style's playstyle and you've bought an entire Ability up to buy a couple of charms. It irks me especially with Righteous Devil, since it is supposed to be the Archery tree for people who want to use firewands.

I realize that some form charms could be too powerful at Essence 1, but wish they'd gone for an auto-upgrade at Essence 2 approach instead.
 
I am super-late to the Alchemical Bureaucracy discussion, but something worth noting is that Alchemicals are not intended to manage People, but Resources. Any suitably "Bureaucracy" assigned role for them would be almost exclusively revolving around the enhancement, streamlining and productivity of manned systems and an infrastructure built of tools, not ensuring that no one in the chain of command skims anything off the top. They do not create, manage or lead bureaucracies simply because no viable tools exist within their thematics for that function. So instead Champions are intended to at worst Advise and at best Enable it by establishing ideal conditions for a bureaucracy to exist inside.

Because something people tend to forget with the change between 1e and 2e, is that Alchemicals aren't intended to have "like a Solar Social Charm, just generally shittier" management magic, they work with mechanistic physical objects and projected information which can be sorted, organized and reconfigured because that is how their Charms themselves operate. This is because they're largely meant to represent extremely advanced logistics equipment codified into a magical plugin, not Diegetic Kingmaker Protocols.

When it comes to managing living, thinking people as a Resource, you can only classify them this way in two methods: on the very very small sense of interpersonal interactions (like lie-detection), and on the big-picture, sweeping scale of national populations and generational trends (like cultural mores). Between the two is where Alchemicals fall down, because they cannot transmit or delegate their magical traits across increasingly diffuse or broad groups very effectively by design, leaving that middle ground to the internal management and leadership of mortals instead.

And to think, in 1e this was all possible without introducing an utterly fucking stupid setting element like the Twice-Exalted to conjure up the specter of Solar Competence as a cheap analogue for Authoritarian Rule limiting the reach and design of Alchemical magic.

They went and made it into a merit which mean you have to be born a thaumaturgist.
This is just 100% Holden's big hate-boner for what he believes to be the "reductionism" of magic to a tool rather than some kind of big mysterious feelie-force which sometimes works how you think it does, but never with any certainty. He started this shit way back in Alchies 2e with the idea of the Demiurge mutation, which exists solely to make the rarity of the Alchemical exalted even rarer by attaching its creation to a selected bloodline of elite mortal workers.

This big fucking deal being made so Alchemicals "are treated like real, credible Exalts" by engineering a situation where the plans for their creation cannot simply be stolen like an airship blueprint, but at the same time now can be utterly kill-switched from the setting entirely by a suitably thorough magical assassin.
 
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So I often come here asking for advice on some charm or another. Guess what I'm doing now?

Some more homebrew, not mine this time.

The First Breath of Creation
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 1; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: None
While Gaia shaped the Wyld into Creation, its was Cyntherea who provided the power necessary to for such miracle to be feasible in the first place, as well as the very concept of Essence in the rapidly cooling aftermath of her birth. The Infernal's Personal Essence Pool is expanded by 2 motes, while their Peripheral Essence Pool is expanded by 6 motes. This Charm can be repurchased with higher Essence, each time increasing the Internal and Peripheral pools the same amount as the original purchase. The first repurchase can be done at Essence 4 (4 and 12 motes), the next at Essence 7 (6 and 18 motes) and the final one at Essence 10 (8 and 24 motes).

Is a charm that expands the personal pool a good idea? Is a lesser overall enhancement (8 motes vs 10) a fair cost? Should there be repurchases?

I suggested just making it another 10-mote expander with its own fill-condition, but the author feels that enhancing the personal pool (and thus the ability to stay concealed) is in-theme for Cytherea and should be retained.

What do you guys think?
 
Xefas has created a truly fantastic depiction of Princess Celestia and the ethos of "Friendship is Magic" for Exalted. Below is a link to a thread containing an update of his Infernal Behemoth from 2nd edition to 3rd. It also contains a new martial art style that builds on the concept of power through friendship while referencing Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann I hope that everyone here finds this as entertaining as I did

[Exalted 3e] Xefas' Infernal Behemoth Garden 2.0
 
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So I often come here asking for advice on some charm or another. Guess what I'm doing now?

Some more homebrew, not mine this time.

The First Breath of Creation
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 1; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: None
While Gaia shaped the Wyld into Creation, its was Cyntherea who provided the power necessary to for such miracle to be feasible in the first place, as well as the very concept of Essence in the rapidly cooling aftermath of her birth. The Infernal's Personal Essence Pool is expanded by 2 motes, while their Peripheral Essence Pool is expanded by 6 motes. This Charm can be repurchased with higher Essence, each time increasing the Internal and Peripheral pools the same amount as the original purchase. The first repurchase can be done at Essence 4 (4 and 12 motes), the next at Essence 7 (6 and 18 motes) and the final one at Essence 10 (8 and 24 motes).

Is a charm that expands the personal pool a good idea? Is a lesser overall enhancement (8 motes vs 10) a fair cost? Should there be repurchases?

I suggested just making it another 10-mote expander with its own fill-condition, but the author feels that enhancing the personal pool (and thus the ability to stay concealed) is in-theme for Cytherea and should be retained.

What do you guys think?
It's worth noting that most of the mote-pool expansions were either shifted to Overdrive (meaning they only provide motes for offensive charms) or have a very limited source of regeneration (e.g. Immanent Solar Glory). This is because your mote pool is basically your lifebar in combat. The smaller size really isn't enough to account for it being an entirely unlimited mote-pool expansion.
 
So I often come here asking for advice on some charm or another. Guess what I'm doing now?

Some more homebrew, not mine this time.

The First Breath of Creation
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 1; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: None
While Gaia shaped the Wyld into Creation, its was Cyntherea who provided the power necessary to for such miracle to be feasible in the first place, as well as the very concept of Essence in the rapidly cooling aftermath of her birth. The Infernal's Personal Essence Pool is expanded by 2 motes, while their Peripheral Essence Pool is expanded by 6 motes. This Charm can be repurchased with higher Essence, each time increasing the Internal and Peripheral pools the same amount as the original purchase. The first repurchase can be done at Essence 4 (4 and 12 motes), the next at Essence 7 (6 and 18 motes) and the final one at Essence 10 (8 and 24 motes).

Is a charm that expands the personal pool a good idea? Is a lesser overall enhancement (8 motes vs 10) a fair cost? Should there be repurchases?

I suggested just making it another 10-mote expander with its own fill-condition, but the author feels that enhancing the personal pool (and thus the ability to stay concealed) is in-theme for Cytherea and should be retained.

What do you guys think?

One of the few good Ink Monkey's ideas was to remove most Mote Pool Expanders from the game and replace them with Overdrive Charms that rewarded suboptimal combat actions in return for increased aggressive power.

So no, mote expanders are not really good charmtech.

If you want some good extra power for Cytherea give her an Overdrive Charm which fills when an ally uses a Defend Other action to protect her and that she can then expend on Charms that enhance ally actions.
 
I am super-late to the Alchemical Bureaucracy discussion, but something worth noting is that Alchemicals are not intended to manage People, but Resources.
Uh, what?
I may be something of a neophyte, but the splat I'm most familar with are the Alchemicals, and nowhere is that even implied.
Alchemicals serve society; the manner of their service is in no way as proscribed as you seem to suggest.

Between the two is where Alchemicals fall down, because they cannot transmit or delegate their magical traits across increasingly diffuse or broad groups very effectively by design, leaving that middle ground to the internal management and leadership of mortals instead.
This assertion seems to be directly contradicted by the nature of their War charms.

Because something people tend to forget with the change between 1e and 2e, is that Alchemicals aren't intended to have "like a Solar Social Charm, just generally shittier" management magic, they work with mechanistic physical objects and projected information which can be sorted, organized and reconfigured because that is how their Charms themselves operate.
Yeah, I'm going to request citations for all this.
Nothing I've seen in the fluff seems to support you.
The Alchemical charmset does not seem to support these assertions either; just look at their Social charms.
 
Uh, what?
I may be something of a neophyte, but the splat I'm most familar with are the Alchemicals, and nowhere is that even implied.
Alchemicals serve society; the manner of their service is in no way as proscribed as you seem to suggest.
If you're new I'm assuming that means your exposure to them is limited entirely by the new book and its interpretation of both their mechanics and fluff, in which case yeah, they weren't a very good translation of how Alchemicals were intended to operate. They're Holden's Fanfiction Alchemicals which are somehow both subservient to mortals but never interact with them and so hilariously superpowerful they need to be narratively caged in by two other Exalted sub-branches and Solars-via-proxy in order to keep them in line.
This assertion seems to be directly contradicted by the nature of their War charms.
2e was not a good book, ignored existing thematics and had some major design elements both shoddily reworked and others gutted of significance, so you shouldn't be using it for any kind of mechanical precedence towards anything but what Holden specifically liked about them, which was being Attribute Robots.
Yeah, I'm going to request citations for all this.
Nothing I've seen in the fluff seems to support you.
The Alchemical charmset does not seem to support these assertions either; just look at their Social charms.
I have no citations to give you beyond what the 1e book spells out in both its mechanical implementation and the focuses drawn from its fluff, which were extremely more tightly woven into who and what Alchemicals and Autochthonia were intended to convey, because they were working with an economy of space to spell everything out in two brief chapters. Meanwhile, the 2e book diffuses this information across the entire book, directly contradicts itself and its own attempts to establish lore repeatedly while padding out unnecessary bullshit like the exact timeline of Autobot's involvement in the Primordial war and straight-up inventing a Order/Chaos conflict where there was none beforehand in a naked and boring attempt to split factions across a Good vs Evil dynamic.

But long story short: Alchemicals may serve "society" but any society as advanced as Autochthonia does not simply Invent Itself out of nothing. The Alchemicals were built to create and optimize systems for keeping such a civilization stable in a hostile environment, and are maintained through the products of infrastructure resulting from it (skilled workers, Charms, tools and materials). This is the entire reason they become cities themselves, in order to expand their power they must become Physically Part of that infrastructure.

Base Physicality and the blurring of the lines between Artifact and Charm as magical tools created to accomplish goals was the explicit keystone of this premise, and if you can't see that then I hate to say it, but the 2e book has failed you in conveying that properly.
 
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There are more than a few systems that are good for Play By Post.

Amber Diceless Roleplaying, for example, is great. As is Nobilis.

Heck, the Marvel Universe Roleplaying Game was a decent little diceless game system that sunk mainly because of Marvel's unrealistic expectations of sales and would be just about perfect for a play by post system. It even literally tracks events in Panels which is easy to transfer to Posts.

What I'm saying is that randomizers slow down online play and should be avoided.

I've tried to start games with both Nobilis and Marvel Universe. They really are both great, and flexible, systems.

Marvel Universe is dead though. More people play Marvel Super Heroes, online, then play Universe period.
 
Yes. Which is precisely why I like the bits of Exalted which raise a big middle finger to "oooh, look, an untouched for 700 years ruin just waiting to be picked dry".
I like the bits which are like Fallout 2 and the Vaults have long ago been picked dry become the hubs for new civilisations springing up in their wake, not the bits which are like Fallout 3 and it's 200 years later and it's all the same and people are living around a nuclear bomb rather than the town literally next door.

I want a setting where the people do what people do to ruins and conquered places throughout history. Pillage them, move into them, pull them apart for building material, turn their churches into temples for their own gods. I want to see the Haiga Sophia conquered by Muslims and turned into a mosque. I want to see mortal kings desecrate the statues of Solars with their own faces - or gods to claim that the statue of a Solar is a statue of them and adopt sun iconography to keep up the pretence. I want to see where two vast and trunkless legs of stone stand in the desert - and then see the ruins of the Shogunate city beside it where, half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies because they used the giant stone head as the foundations to build their trading town on... and how now, the desert people have the Shogunate town as their settled place because it rises above the sand and has an aquifer, and so it is a holy place to them because water runs freely.
I don't know about other ruins, but Denandsor had (before the potentially enemy NPC recently it in our campaign) reasons for staying untouched those 700 or so years (or at least the reason was working until all 300 Solars returned to the world).

To chime in with @EarthScorpion here, what he's describing is essentially a form of narrative contrast and juxtaposition.

Classic fantasy before the deconstruction was 'Great and Glorious Ruins in stasis, contrasted against the lessened, contemporary people. The types who lost knowledge and were reduced in some fashion. These all existed for the protagonists to walk up to and 'restore' to glory.

But, narrative, this was used merely as a tool to convey that something was lost, not anything like an internally consistent world. A lot of fantasy (and a lot of badly written fantasy) is basically a realm of Metaphor that the protagonists move through as set pieces.

So, contrast is good and useful as a narrative tool, but Exalted decided to contrast living thinking humans with fallen high age works of the previous era. So you had the salvagers and utilizers and all that.

I want a setting that uses those aesthetics of old ruins, but
which doesn't render the mortals into agency-less drones just waiting for the Solars to show back up so they have loot-caves to explore.
I want a world where the old and glorious has been subsumed, re-purposed and rendered down by the fallen savages of this later era.

That's why Cherak, with that picture in MOEP: Dragonblooded with stripped-down warstriders pulling a plough, is great.
On the topic of 'agency-less drones' vs. 'living thinking humans', I think it's not quite as black and white. IMHO, it's more that in fantasy settings, the mentality of a living thinking agent of a human' is different from that of a non-fantasy alternate-world medievalesque human; overall, the fantasy NPC may actually have more agency than the NFAWMH NPC. The following list is somewhat exaggerated for illustrative purposes, meant to contrast the two approaches, focusing mostly on mortal characters (heroic or not):
  • The fantasy commoner is uneducated and probably not very smart (in fact quite the opposite), but can surprise the hero with a few useful bits of SimpleMindedWisdom, and perhaps knows a secret folk recipe or two. The NFAWMH commoner's most coveted secret wisdom is probably Yet Another Way to flavour the alcohol s/he brews in spare time.
  • The fantasy assassin kills the target with an exotic poison from an interesting ambush. The NFAWMH assassin spends the front payment to hire a bunch of thugs and storm the target at the evening dinner at the local tavern.
  • The (non-mortal) fantasy hero-to-become-empress is a paragon of mental acumen, drive and personal power, enforcing her will upon an ancient artifact of doom in a feat of ancient heroism. The NFAWMH 'god-empress' is largely a figure who just happened to be lucky to fit the criteria the artifact considered acceptable, or even a person claiming the title of someone long dead and brainwashed into fitting the artifact's criteria.
  • The fantasy knight is chivalrous if perhaps a bit too uptight; he was likely knighted for some feat of heroism; he also probably sacrifices extra wealth to the temple of his faith if he's got a slight paladinish vibe. The NFAWMH knight is a bandit with a noble title bought with stolen gold, keeps robbing everyone on the road while paying lip service to the local christianesque temple because the temple is corrupt and will use its connections to protect the knight against repercussions from those higher up on the social ladder (and probably wastes the rest at the local tavern on booze).
  • The fantasy pirate has a ruthless but strict code of honour, lives the pirate life for the sake of the wind and the constant travel and the thrill of battle and chase, and will ransom caught nobles for outrageous sums. The NFAWMH pirate is a Somalialesque commoner living the pirate life largely out of necessity, during raids is almost as scared as his victims, and probably killed a dozen unarmed civilians out of fear of dealing with the problems of keeping a hostage unharmed.
  • A fantasy crime lord will weave elaborate schemes, be the leader of a Thieves' Guild, and if he's evil enough, will even kill his opponents in a magnificent display of power and of being to reach anyone (not necessarily personally, but e.g. by the assassin from the begining of the list), striking the fear into the citizens of the region. The NFAWMH crime lord is the local baron's embezzling petty accountant.
  • The fantasy pickpocket kid, when caught, will tell nasty-but-hope-filled hard luck story, and probably have a HeartOfGold. A NFAWMH pickpocket kid will more likely have a feral-ish mentality and/or too far gone due to the locale/period's equivalent to sniffing glue.

Note: I'm not going to tell you or ES how to run your games. It's certainly a style/genre that is popular (judging by GRRM's ASoIaF) and creating new subdivisions of the fandom (again, judging by the reactions to the latter). But I'm surprised that it's seen as an inherently/default Exalted style. That's certainly not the impression I got from the original pitch:
Core back said:
Do not believe what the scientists tell you. The natural history we know is a lie, a falsehood sold to us by wicked old men who would make the world a dull gray prison and protect us from the dangers inherent to freedom. They would have you believe our planet to be a lonely starship, hurtling through the void of space, barren of magic and in need of a stern hand upon the rudder.
Close your mind to their deception. The time before our time was not a time of senseless natural struggle and reptilian rage, but a time of myth and sorcery. It was a time of legend, when heroes walked Creation and wielded the very power of the gods. It was a time before the world was bent, a time before the magic of Creation lessened, a time before the souls of men became the stunted, withered things they are today.
This is the story of that time.
THIS IS THE STORY OF THE EXALTED.

To my mind, the "I want a world where the old and glorious has been subsumed, re-purposed and rendered down by the fallen savages of this later era" sounds like what Exalted has to say about the difference between the Exalted era and the modern era. Or are you two saying that you're placing more emphasis on the difference between the First and the Second Age instead of quote's emphasis on the difference between the Second Age and modernity (the way it sees modernity)?
 
The fantasy pickpocket kid, when caught, will tell nasty-but-hope-filled hard luck story
Keris and Rat did that, yeah.

It made a really good distraction for whichever one wasn't telling the story to go through the pockets of any bleeding-heart dumb enough to stay still and listen to it. And if that didn't work, it at least got them off-guard for a knife to the thigh so they could leg it.
 
I don't know about other ruins, but Denandsor had (before the potentially enemy NPC recently it in our campaign) reasons for staying untouched those 700 or so years (or at least the reason was working until all 300 Solars returned to the world).

Denandsor is lame specifically because it's a loot-cache for PCs. Moreover, its existence demands that Dragonblooded not be able to handle a hostile environment like the area around it. Which is another example of the all-too-common "fuck over DBs for the sake of Solars".

On the topic of 'agency-less drones' vs. 'living thinking humans', I think it's not quite as black and white. IMHO, it's more that in fantasy settings, the mentality of a living thinking agent of a human' is different from that of a non-fantasy alternate-world medievalesque human; overall, the fantasy NPC may actually have more agency than the NFAWMH NPC. The following list is somewhat exaggerated for illustrative purposes, meant to contrast the two approaches, focusing mostly on mortal characters (heroic or not):

I literally can't address these points. As in, they're not even wrong. They don't make sense. I don't understand where you're arguing from.

Are... are you assuming that "fantasy" as a genre demands the worst excesses and blandest stereotypes of the bastardised post-D&D hackish fantasy genre? And that running on an alternate set of stereotypes (because no, your examples are not actually "realistic" in a bunch of cases) makes something somehow not-fantasy?

You're arguing that Warhammer Fantasy is not fantasy. Examine your axioms again.

That's certainly not the impression I got from the original pitch:

That pitch is a Traditions mage whining about how the Technocracy doesn't let them fireball people.

No, literally, it's a holdover from when Exalted was the prehistory of the World of Darkness. It is literally a Traditions mage whining.
 
So, no one has an opinion on "Squid versus Greased Pig" for the martial art about wrestling while soaked in oil, water, or mud?
If you linked back to a post which explained what that was, I might? As it is, a lot of people – myself included – don't religiously follow this thread, and so aren't going to have any idea what you're talking about. If nothing else, I'd suggest recouching your request for commentary – it's really easy to just quote your old post and add some superficial expansion or rephrasing, which has the exact same effect as a "plz comment" post.

That said, just based on your description there, I'd advise you to copy-paste the fighting style of Hakan from Street Fighter 4 into a martial art. Maybe you've already acknowledged him as an inspiration – I don't know. I'm not going to hunt through the last dozen-or-so pages of unread thread to find out.
 
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I literally can't address these points. As in, they're not even wrong. They don't make sense. I don't understand where you're arguing from.

Are... are you assuming that "fantasy" as a genre demands the worst excesses and blandest stereotypes of the bastardised post-D&D hackish fantasy genre? And that running on an alternate set of stereotypes (because no, your examples are not actually "realistic" in a bunch of cases) makes something somehow not-fantasy?

You're arguing that Warhammer Fantasy is not fantasy. Examine your axioms again.

I think really this is the core issue you're having. It's cargo cult design. "Another work which is called fantasy has these things, so my work, which is fantasy, must also have these things." This becomes doubly amusing when we remember that Exalted was supposed to be about rejecting that cargo cult design for fantasy that felt real. Which is kind of why in Exalted, the guys who are given immense power by the Most Righteous God of Righteousness with just their own moral compass to guide them end up fucking up so badly that their advisors bump them all off.

So really, if we're going to go back to cargo cult design, why not make the 300 returning Solars all Mythic Lawful Good Paladins while we're at it? And the Sidereals are all Lawful Evil. And the Lunars are all Chaotic Neutral, and the Dragonbloods also Lawful Evil because they deposed the Mythic Lawful Good Paladins and welp.
 
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On the topic of 'agency-less drones' vs. 'living thinking humans',

Okay- as unambiguously as possible: Badly written fantasy uses poorly employed Archetypes and Cliches as plot devices for their protagonists.

As for the second point of your post, I think you're referring to the Back Cover blurb, which is generally trying to hook people who were coming in from World of Darkness, which had a similar kind of theme. I can tell you I prioritize the pages of the book as opposed to the back cover blurb though.

But, addressed more openly to the thread, this does remind me of something I've noticed. Exalted is many thing, but it is rarely what people are sold on when they first experience the setting.

Take a meme, any Exalted meme- you'll likely get some kind of response of 'Wow that's awesome, provocative or otherwise novel in context of my RPG experience!"

People get sold on those memes, and don't get a chance to stay and understand the actual ideas behind those memes.
 
I don't know about other ruins, but Denandsor had (before the potentially enemy NPC recently it in our campaign) reasons for staying untouched those 700 or so years (or at least the reason was working until all 300 Solars returned to the world).
Yes, it had a big plot sticker on it saying "SOLARS ONLY, EVERYONE ELSE FUCK OFF BECAUSE PLOT", with a secondary sticker saying "no, mental defences and other package deals of being an Exalt don't work against this, what do you mean "if it's so easy to deny the Exalted the ability to enter an area, why didn't the Primordials just set up massive areas of 'your Dragonblooded army can't enter here' during the War?".

Anything that artificially segregates off a parcel of the setting as only being allowed for speshul snowflakes by gating it behind a You Must Be This High To Play No Takebacks Or Loopholes rule is not very good writing, especially when it's as poorly justified as Denasdor is ("something something Artifact something fear aura you're not allowed unless you're a Solar go away what do you mean why hasn't the Artifact shut down after two thousand years with no maintenance or refuelling; shut up, you're spoiling the special Solar playground").

To go into more detail on your comparisons, though. Firstly, the word "medieval" is very imprecise, and covers a range from about the 5th to the 15th centuries. Despite people thinking that it's all one homogeneous period, that's literally a thousand years, which is a timespan that does the equivalent of lumping the Battle of Hastings in with the First World War. I'll assume you're talking about pre-Industrial times and average it out at about the 10th century.
The fantasy commoner is uneducated and probably not very smart (in fact quite the opposite), but can surprise the hero with a few useful bits of SimpleMindedWisdom, and perhaps knows a secret folk recipe or two. The NFAWMH commoner's most coveted secret wisdom is probably Yet Another Way to flavour the alcohol s/he brews in spare time.
"Commoner" is another really poor description that shows very little understanding of the dynamics of the time. You didn't use "slave", though, so they're presumably not serfs or other un-free workers of the kind used at the time, which means they're probably part of quite a complex feudal system. If they're a farmer, they may well use slave labour themselves on their fields, and know a fair bit about crop rotation and wind or watermill industry, which they use for grinding flour and other rote mechanical labour tasks. They don't own the land they work, but they cultivate it and pay rent to a landlord, who can't go too overboard in treading on them because he depends on them to produce his crops for him. Further, "uneducated" doesn't mean "stupid" - people are people, who obey normal distributions no matter what time period they're born in, and to ladle cliched tropes onto what may well be a bright or gifted boy or girl born into a lower class family is to ignore the fact that bright and gifted kids have been being born in every level of society since humans evolved.

And such people do not passively stay put and content themselves with "simple-minded commoner folk wisdom". They work, they strive, they test and push and break boundaries in order to get what they want. They always have and they always will. That's where stories are born. Dismissing both sets as "commoners who aren't very smart" is exactly ES's point about stripping away human agency. What about the commoners who fake being nobles to try and get a leg up in the world? What about the ones who ferment rebellion, or trade chores so they can be cleaning near where their lord's son is having lessons from private tutors and so steal an education from overheard scraps? What about the thousand and one different ways that people - not video-game NPCs - will always act like people, with goals and aspirations and drives of their own, and refuse to stay in little trope-named boxes?
The fantasy assassin kills the target with an exotic poison from an interesting ambush. The NFAWMH assassin spends the front payment to hire a bunch of thugs and storm the target at the evening dinner at the local tavern.
Your early 10th-12th century assassins probably acted like the predecessors to Japanese shinobi or like the Arabic fidaiyn, staking out a target for weeks, months or even years, using disguise and nerve to go under cover as a servant, and then using poison, a concealed weapon or a garotte to kill an unaware target. A fancy exotic poison is easily traceable, so a competent assassin uses surrounding tools in clever ways, and if at all possible tries to set things up to look like an accident unless they're making a deliberate point. They're an early form of asymmetric war who use the exact same principles that modern terrorists use, and who can be used to draw parallels to them in both tactics and psychological repercussions. They're heavily tied into the political arena, since most of their work will be in relation to it.
The (non-mortal) fantasy hero-to-become-empress is a paragon of mental acumen, drive and personal power, enforcing her will upon an ancient artifact of doom in a feat of ancient heroism. The NFAWMH 'god-empress' is largely a figure who just happened to be lucky to fit the criteria the artifact considered acceptable, or even a person claiming the title of someone long dead and brainwashed into fitting the artifact's criteria.
Honestly, I don't even need to address this one, because the latter is just as cool as the former - that's what the Exalted are, after all. Someone who got lucky enough to get a superweapon that they didn't "earn" or "deserve", and now they have to figure out what to do with it. That's a story in and of itself, to say nothing of how they got their hands on the artifact or where they found it, since - as ES said - most artifacts that are just lying around where a little effort can get at them were got at several centuries ago by opportunists.
The fantasy knight is chivalrous if perhaps a bit too uptight; he was likely knighted for some feat of heroism; he also probably sacrifices extra wealth to the temple of his faith if he's got a slight paladinish vibe. The NFAWMH knight is a bandit with a noble title bought with stolen gold, keeps robbing everyone on the road while paying lip service to the local christianesque temple because the temple is corrupt and will use its connections to protect the knight against repercussions from those higher up on the social ladder (and probably wastes the rest at the local tavern on booze).
Knights as we think of them - shining armour on horseback - are actually fairly late into the medieval ages. A knight (though Exalted strenuously avoids even the word 'knight', as part of its "no, we're not DnD" thing) is a noble lord who is an integral part of the feudal system. He's a military officer and a member of the lower nobility who has been trained from the age of seven, if not younger, and who is basically an elite special forces commando in terms of the money and time that went into training him. He's often more than just a mounted elite soldier, and in fact has a responsibility to raise and maintain troops for his monarch or lord, which are a foundational part of the feudal system, wherein the power of the Crown comes from the nobles who it grants land to, who support it with their regiments. Any view of the king being the ultimate power is flawed, because their power comes from the nobles, and thus they can't anger them - much like how the modern government has to play nice with big-money companies who control much of the economy, and who can apply considerable muscle to any discussions of law or policy. Are you seeing a pattern here of parallels to the modern world seen through the lens of the old ones, and economic and political reasons behind things? It's a much more interesting one than Generic Fantasy World where none of the actual underpinnings of society are present, and real-life stuff like this is just excluded completely.
The fantasy pirate has a ruthless but strict code of honour, lives the pirate life for the sake of the wind and the constant travel and the thrill of battle and chase, and will ransom caught nobles for outrageous sums. The NFAWMH pirate is a Somalialesque commoner living the pirate life largely out of necessity, during raids is almost as scared as his victims, and probably killed a dozen unarmed civilians out of fear of dealing with the problems of keeping a hostage unharmed.
Piracy is an outgrowth of insufficient government - read The Birth of the West, by Paul Collins, which goes into detail about how the modern West emerged from 10th century Europe. In short, piracy is tied up with raiders, and is a constant threat in this timeframe. Magyars in the south, Saracens in the west and Vikings in the north were all constant facts of life who sacked towns, plundered monasteries, and generally terrorized their victims. In some places, the rulers fought back - some successfully, some not. Other places just paid them off. All of them happened, however, because of places where there were no strong central powers or rulers - isolated societies that were unable to defend themselves against predation. Somalia is a perfect example of this; a haven for pirates where there's no law or central authority - so if your fantasy world has pirates; where are they coming from, what caused the collapse of authority that gave them a foothold on the region and who's trying to do something about it (and what)?
A fantasy crime lord will weave elaborate schemes, be the leader of a Thieves' Guild, and if he's evil enough, will even kill his opponents in a magnificent display of power and of being to reach anyone (not necessarily personally, but e.g. by the assassin from the begining of the list), striking the fear into the citizens of the region. The NFAWMH crime lord is the local baron's embezzling petty accountant.
Insofar as crime lords exist, they're the ones who weld together crime on a bigger scale than pickpocketing. There won't be a "thieves's guild" where all cutpurses and pickpockets pay a fair share of their earnings to the Common King; the "crime lord" will be the one who organises and uses planning and infrastructure to go after big targets. Kidnappings and ransoms, protection money, loan sharking, gambling, drug trades. Look at the yakuza, look at the mafiya; look at the societal pressures that give birth to them and the way they do business. Look at how they recruit members, how they keep members and how they enforce loyalty. Look at the way that they're infrastructural; they're not built on fantastical notions of thieves all breaking one set of laws but obeying their thief laws for Plot Reasons, they're rooted in cold hard profit and psychology - and are a lot harder to take down than just beating up the King of Thieves.
The fantasy pickpocket kid, when caught, will tell nasty-but-hope-filled hard luck story, and probably have a HeartOfGold. A NFAWMH pickpocket kid will more likely have a feral-ish mentality and/or too far gone due to the locale/period's equivalent to sniffing glue.
If you've got kids on the streets resorting to crime for a living, that gives a raft of stories. Look at Victorian London for what happens here - such kids can often get really inventive in what they do to survive, and again, stories are born there. A lot of them will die, yes, and that tells you something about the culture and the class warfare in it (oh hey, more parallels to modern classism and poverty, whee~). And the reactions of those around them and who among the higher classes try to help and do charitable work will tell you more.

Standard fantasy is boring. It presents the veneer of a society, but it ignores how actual societies in the time periods it lazily takes aesthetics from actually worked, and is often wilfully blind to some of the things that existed alongside what it uses - like how cannons were around in Europe from at least the 13th century and handheld firearms were around a couple of centuries later; at the same time as the stereotypical image of the mounted knight. It ignores the economic and political and societal reasons for things that happen, and it strips minor characters and entire groups of agency, assuming that commoners (bar a few Special Snowflake heroes) will be content to stay commoners and the like; boiling them down to a few groups of cliches and trope-block LEGO. One of the promises that made Exalted so inviting and original was that it would sweep all that away and look cynically and hard and accurately at realistic mechanisms of how human cultures worked, and then merely add magic on top. That's far more interesting, to me, than repeating the tired cliches of Generic Western Fantasy - or alternately of repeating them and then adding a layer of dirt and rape on top, as in ASOIAF.
 
Of course, the obvious solution to that would simply be to port everything to either xp or bp(it's honestly not that hard). Then there's no efficiency problem to go through.

The actual reason seems more that Xp/Bp is a gigantic sacred cow, and despite their loud words, 3ed ignored a bunch of those.
That doesn't actually show that it's not a sacred cow. The point of sacred cows is that people consider them better than alternatives, not that people keep with them even though they don't like them.
What exactly qualifies or disqualifies an approach/rule/etc. for being classified as a sacred cow? Because 'immunity to criticism' (the definition in the dictionary) seems rather vague. And surely "It has been so before, and I still think it is better this way" is too broad, as it would qualify each and every thing that has been the way it is from a first edition of some book.

So, I went over some of the old threads, and the reasoning seems to primarily be a mix of "it's been in the game since vampire, so it's not terrible" and "doing the sorts of comparisons that people bring up as the problem with the split are the actual problem, not the bp/xp split itself".
I'm acquainted with it since Vampire (2ed, not revised), and it's kinda terrible actually, particularly with Willpower. That being said, "terrible people who do number-crunching are terrible and are having badwrongfun" seems to have been WW's approach (judging by their books) since probably forever. (Is there any chance that David L. Pulver, Jon Chung, DouglasCole, Reverend Pee Kitty etc. are listed among the Autumn People in Changeling the Dreaming?)

Note to self: get GURPS Action, which abstracts a great many things.

FATE's decent for PbP, as is Nobilis. In fact, most systems resolve everything except combat in single rolls.
Umm, Action does some noncombat abstraction and streamlining, but you're still stuck with the Attack, Defence, Damage roll trio for combats against non-mooks, so I doubt it'll be good for PbP. Of course, three rolls (and about one reroll per hour per character) still beats the Ten Steps of Exalted Combat for PbP.

I don't know Nobilis, but FATE Core does look streamlined enough for PbP, since it handles an attack as a single roll by both sides . . . but it can have arbitrary amounts of rerolls, even though it's usually better to just stack multiple +2's instead of rerolls.

It's worth noting that most of the mote-pool expansions were either shifted to Overdrive (meaning they only provide motes for offensive charms) or have a very limited source of regeneration (e.g. Immanent Solar Glory). This is because your mote pool is basically your lifebar in combat. The smaller size really isn't enough to account for it being an entirely unlimited mote-pool expansion.
Eh, ISG is kinda weird because it has never been errated in its text, including "The character cannot recover this Essence normally—he can refill this pool only through the technique above and with Essence-recovery Charms", which seems to make it recharge from Essence-Gathering Temper and the like. I'm pretty sure that if one wants to get rid of mote-hoarding, then one obviously should remove the underlined part of the rule, but the errata merely changed its prerequisites.

Incidentally, I feel that ISG is more appropriate as an emergency pad that you use when you run out of normal motes completely. Better than running out of healthboxes. Or other really-really emergency uses. Or sometimes story-long commitments that you know you won't be releasing any time soon. Maybe I'm wrong.

Denandsor is lame specifically because it's a loot-cache for PCs. Moreover, its existence demands that Dragonblooded not be able to handle a hostile environment like the area around it. Which is another example of the all-too-common "fuck over DBs for the sake of Solars".
Well, DBs have always been the Ghouls to Solars' Vampires, power-wise. As in, a taste of power, a step above mortals, and an eternity of feeling that there are those above you. Which is probably actually one of the reasons why they joined the Usurpation, among other things. Whether that was a good or bad design is another matter.

I literally can't address these points. As in, they're not even wrong. They don't make sense. I don't understand where you're arguing from.

Are... are you assuming that "fantasy" as a genre demands the worst excesses and blandest stereotypes of the bastardised post-D&D hackish fantasy genre? And that running on an alternate set of stereotypes (because no, your examples are not actually "realistic" in a bunch of cases) makes something somehow not-fantasy?

You're arguing that Warhammer Fantasy is not fantasy. Examine your axioms again.
Eh, I wish genre classification could have axioms (not my axioms, just hard-set axioms) - classification would be much simpler. Also please note that the list was somewhat exaggerated for illustrative purposes, and is not meant to imply that a fantasy should be at the extreme end of the spectrum, or that non-fantasy should be at the other extreme. It's more that fantasy seems to be a genre that tries to weave the sense of fantastic and wondrous into it, preferably even into things that are mundane in our world. Glorious army-shattering warstriders repurposed by commoners into plow-pullers make the fantastic into mundane. I tried to highlight the contrast between the fantastic-and-heroic tropes vs. the gritty-mundane ones.
(Also, WHFRP is usually classed as Dark Fantasy, and literature buffs seem to insist at least occasionally when the topic is touched that Dark Fantasy and Urban Fantasy are not the same thing as normal Fantasy. But that's a tangent and I'd rather not pursue it any further.)

That pitch is a Traditions mage whining about how the Technocracy doesn't let them fireball people.

No, literally, it's a holdover from when Exalted was the prehistory of the World of Darkness. It is literally a Traditions mage whining.
So, it's a holdover from WW behaving and writing like WW does. I'm not sure what does that suppose to change. I mean, that's part of the 1e vision that even survived into the publishing of 2e. I don't agree with anti-tech and anti-modernity whining, and and I'm sad that WW did Technocracy as an antagonist faction . . . But it's still the pitch that was considered central enough for the setting to be placed on its book's cover. Pitches have meanings, and they say things about settings. They don't restrict the players to only following one such meaning, but they definitely say that this is one of the things thought about when the setting was envisioned; it's one of the valid ways of seeing it, at a minimum. WW is a company dominated by the . . . well, I'm not sure there is a proper term for it, but in my head I classify it as the 'art and sales departments' sort of mentality, and that includes a certain disdain for the technology and modernity, certain romantisation/idealisation of the past (particularly of fictional past). And so it's the sort of mentality that I am not surprised to encounter in the products of such a company.
 
I think really this is the core issue you're having. It's cargo cult design. "Another work which is called fantasy has these things, so my work, which is fantasy, must also have these things."

I really think this needs to be emphasized, @vicky_molokh. What you are saying are the themes of Exalted are the surface images of Exalted, literally the superficial trappings. That's why its easy to confuse early 1e, late 1e/early 2e and late 2e because they all had the same superficial qualities.

But the people in this thread prefer to dig into the setting deeper, to refer to the intentions of the authors as revealed in discussions and interviews, to understand what Exalted was meant to be and what it is supposed to be under the surface. You are talking all about the image of Exalted while we are mostly talking about the foundations of Exalted. The actual themes and ideas that were used to craft that image. You are talking about the picture, we are talking about the canvas and the paint and the inspiration.
 
So, it's a holdover from WW behaving and writing like WW does. I'm not sure what does that suppose to change. I mean, that's part of the 1e vision that even survived into the publishing of 2e. I don't agree with anti-tech and anti-modernity whining, and and I'm sad that WW did Technocracy as an antagonist faction . . . But it's still the pitch that was considered central enough for the setting to be placed on its book's cover. Pitches have meanings, and they say things about settings. They don't restrict the players to only following one such meaning, but they definitely say that this is one of the things thought about when the setting was envisioned; it's one of the valid ways of seeing it, at a minimum. WW is a company dominated by the . . . well, I'm not sure there is a proper term for it, but in my head I classify it as the 'art and sales departments' sort of mentality, and that includes a certain disdain for the technology and modernity, certain romantisation/idealisation of the past (particularly of fictional past). And so it's the sort of mentality that I am not surprised to encounter in the products of such a company.

Yes, it is one of the things thought about the setting as it was envisioned. You know what that thing is? It's a conceit. The same conceit the Conan novels or the Lord of the Ring trilogy have about being set in the distant prehistoric past of our world. It's a fairly classic conceit of fantasy, especially dying earth fantasy, that it takes place either far in the past or far in the future of Our World.

Instead of understanding it as what it actually is, though, you have to deliberately misrepresent it as some argument that @EarthScorpion is wrong because in the good old days people would just leave these ruins full of useful things alone for no raisin.
 
in the good old days people would just leave these ruins full of useful things alone for no raisin.
That's ridiculous. I wouldn't leave ruins alone for no raisins. I like raisins. Now, if you offered me, like... a hundred raisins to leave some ruins full of useful things alone, then I might listen. At least until I finished the raisins. :p
 
Is A Song of Ice and Fire not high fantasy?
I think relatively few people would immediately label A Song of Ice and Fire as high fantasy?

I mean, by my understanding the quote-unquote-official difference between "high" and "low" fantasy is that the former is set in an entirely imagined world, while the latter is set in the real world with imagined elements*, and people like JRR Tolkein who are adamant that their imagined world is a hidden part or history of the real one can fuck off because they make people who like to put things in neat boxes feel uncomfortable.

*The "official" difference between low fantasy and science fiction presumably being that we pretend the latter is actually rooted in reality (but not really), as opposed to being rooted in reality (but really not really).

Anyway, this kind of surprised me when I was told, because I'd always understood the difference between high and low fantasy to be one of tone and presentation – the difference between Avatar and District 9, to hop over a genre. The former is focused on existential battles of Good vs Evil (or whatever diametrically opposed causes the author chose to duke it out, such as Capitalism vs Communism) in a world that largely centres around the ideal-embodying protagonists (often but not always by way of prophecy), while the latter is more focused on "real people", driven as much by flaws as ideals, who often reluctantly scrabble their way through an adventure that they'd rather not have had, are probably not the cause or centre of, and may not even survive.

So by that definition, Lord of the Rings would be high fantasy, and A Song of Ice and Fire would be low fantasy. There's also a tendency to have the "fantastical" elements of the imagined setting take more of a front-and-centre role in what I understood to be high fantasy, but that's hardly a consistent or even particularly useful rule.

I might suggest "dark fantasy" as an alternate name for what I'd considered to be low fantasy, but alas – the bookstores have already decided that term refers to books where the undead mack on teenage girls.

Would I describe Exalted as high fantasy? Well… probably not, at least by my definitions. The "power level" of the protagonists and (often in practical terms not very prominent) background elements throw me off, but it's really more like low fantasy with a bunch of high fantasy protagonists from different books dumped into it for a world-spanning death match.

(amusingly, Warhammer Fantasy Battles would be high fantasy, and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay would be low fantasy)
 
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