In an Exalted game, if I expect to get loads of XP, then I start with very little in my favored areas and invest my dots in non-favored things, because I will spend less XP overall that way, but in a short campaign, I need to have favored things have plenty of dots because they are the things I need to be good at.
Are you talking about 3e, here? Because this is actually a huge mistake in 3e. Buying your favored abilities from 3 to 5 is incredibly cheap with BP, and dots of unfavored abilities are only slightly more expensive with XP. Buying an unfavored ability or two up to 3 can get you a little boost, but starting with favored fives is much bigger. (Starting with unfavored charms is good, though, if there are Ability<4 charms you know you'll want.)

I think Holden's stance on BP is something like "it's fast, it's simple, and caring about XP-efficiency is badwrongfun".
 
I think Holden's stance on BP is something like "it's fast, it's simple, and caring about XP-efficiency is badwrongfun".

That's Holden's stance on everything he disagrees with.

Not Wanting Rape Ghosts charms is badwrongfun
Wanting an bureaucracy system is badwrongfun
Wanting a character creation that doesn't screw over the inexperienced is badwrongfun.
Actually fixing the fcuking system is badwrongfun.
Releasing all the old splats before they start making more is badwrongfun

etc etc
 
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I think Holden's stance on BP is something like "it's fast, it's simple, and caring about XP-efficiency is badwrongfun".

Of course, the obvious solution to that would simply be to port everything to either xp or bp(it's honestly not that hard). Then there's no efficiency problem to go through.

The actual reason seems more that Xp/Bp is a gigantic sacred cow, and despite their loud words, 3ed ignored a bunch of those.
 
Releasing all the old splats before they start making more is badwrongfun

In his defense, doing Exigents* first is actually a decent idea since the tools that are supposed to be provided for making custom Exalts should, in theory, work just as well for putting together the old splats. Thereby giving people the option to at least fake it until all of the old splats are done.

Now, whether that works is another matter entirely.



*Well, technically they're doing Dragonblooded first.
 
And that's where he utterly fails.

Because if you want a system where "caring about efficiency is wrong" (or rather unimportant), you make a system where players can't make choices they'll later regret.
The BP/XP split achieves exactly the opposite of that.

Yes, BP is simple. That's because BP has no scaling costs. Which is fine, if you want simple. (I disagree that you need a simple character creation system, but that's a matter of taste).
The BP/XP split makes it extremely complicated.
If it were just BP, it'd be fine. If it were just XP, it'd be fine - slightly more complicated, but just put a damn table into the book what each dot costs if you really think your players are that afraid of simple multiplaction.
But you have both. You have a system where buying something during character creation can be either vastly cheaper or vastly more expensive than during play. A system where, if I buy my attributes or abilities inefficiently during character creation, I'll possibly more than a dozen play-sessions behind in terms of XP.

And you can't tell me that caring about that is wrong.
You don't even need to be the kind of person who cares about such things to notice that. If I just play normally and advance my character in a reasonable way, but one of my fellow players has six more charms than I do despite having comparable attributes/abilities? I'll notice that. And odds are, it'll feel unfair.


You want simple? Fine, get rid of scaling costs altogether. Adjust BP-cost a bit so that you can spend smaller amounts of "BP" on the small purchases (such as sorcerous workings), and you're good to go.
You want simple, but want to keep scaling cost? Go all-in on XP, use them during character creation.
You want non-scaling character creation cost, and scaling cost during play? AND simple? Sorry, can't be done. It's just too big a contradiction - choose any two.


In my personal opinion, keeping the BP/XP split is just outright negligence.
It's an obvious problem. It's easy to fix - it barely take a few hours for a single person to come up with workable alternatives.
But most importantly, there is absolutely no merit to it whatsoever unless you want to create a complicated numbers-game for optimizers. I'm an optimizer, I love putting five hours into character creation just for the stats. Guess what, your system isn't appealing to me since it doesn't even inspire creativity - it has obvious best choices, I can't squeeze anything interesting out of it without sacrificing tons of character progression.
If you aren't an optimizer, that's not a problem. It turns into a problem very easily though.

And it's not even a stylistic choice, or a choice of favoring free-form over rules systems.
You want to gut Thaumaturgy? Well, at least the new system does a passable "mystic with in-born gift".
You want dice-tricks and tons of charms? Those can at least be interesting and offer some variety if character specializations overlap.
You want a complicated craft-system with more charms than any two other abilities combined? Hey, if you want complicated crafting, it does the job.
You want your players to free-form organizational tasks? Sure, that's a valid design choice.
But this? This is just a mess you were too lazy to fix, at best - if not too arrogant to do so.
 
Of course, the obvious solution to that would simply be to port everything to either xp or bp(it's honestly not that hard). Then there's no efficiency problem to go through.

The actual reason seems more that Xp/Bp is a gigantic sacred cow, and despite their loud words, 3ed ignored a bunch of those.
I've talked to Holden a lot, and it's pretty clear that all these things were brought up and put into question and alternatives were tried. They didn't leave BP/xp in because it's a tradition, they left it in because they genuinely consider it the better choice. Now I understand that plenty of people disagree and/or find that utterly baffling, but I keep seeing people say that the devs "just didn't care/it was just a sacred cow" and it's grating.
 
I've talked to Holden a lot, and it's pretty clear that all these things were brought up and put into question and alternatives were tried. They didn't leave BP/xp in because it's a tradition, they left it in because they genuinely consider it the better choice. Now I understand that plenty of people disagree and/or find that utterly baffling, but I keep seeing people say that the devs "just didn't care/it was just a sacred cow" and it's grating.
Did any of the developers ever explain WHY?
Because I just genuinely can't see it.
 
Are you talking about 3e, here? Because this is actually a huge mistake in 3e.
More familiar with 2E/2.5E. If given a choice between having two attributes at 3 and having one at 5 and the other at 1, go for the latter since it costs noticeably more to raise two abilities from 3 to 5 than it does to raise one ability from 1 (or even zero) to 5.
But you have both. You have a system where buying something during character creation can be either vastly cheaper or vastly more expensive than during play. A system where, if I buy my attributes or abilities inefficiently during character creation, I'll possibly more than a dozen play-sessions behind in terms of XP.
Thank you for articulating that better than I could.
it has obvious best choices,
*cough* Dex 5 WP10 E3*cough*

Now I understand that plenty of people disagree and/or find that utterly baffling
A good number of us do, and one of the devs even posted an alternate XP system based on sessions (Every session you get to put X on your sheet, every two sessions Y, and every five sessions Z or W) and then a lot of people started wondering whether adding that as a sidebar would have really taken that much effort.
 
Did any of the developers ever explain WHY?
Because I just genuinely can't see it.
God, a thousand times.

Never in any one specific, convenient post getting in-depth, though. More in scattered fragments over dozens of pages as that discussion crop up again and again. I wish there was a mega-post somewhere with a comprehensive essay on why the devs prefer xp/BP, but there the closest you'll find are short posts that list a bunch of reasons but with no explanation as to why or examples, or more in-depth explanations that only touch upon a small part of the issue and are answering questions from specific people.

I could probably put together a more or less comprehensive explanation, but it'd be work, and people would immediately start answering it and tearing it apart and I couldn't make a solid defense because I'm personally not sold on the concept anyway.
A good number of us do, and one of the devs even posted an alternate XP system based on sessions (Every session you get to put X on your sheet, every two sessions Y, and every five sessions Z or W) and then a lot of people started wondering whether adding that as a sidebar would have really taken that much effort.
The main reason why this wouldn't go in a sidebar is because the devs don't think that alternate system is good, and they wouldn't want to suggest what they see as a non-good system to their players.
 
I've talked to Holden a lot, and it's pretty clear that all these things were brought up and put into question and alternatives were tried. They didn't leave BP/xp in because it's a tradition, they left it in because they genuinely consider it the better choice. Now I understand that plenty of people disagree and/or find that utterly baffling, but I keep seeing people say that the devs "just didn't care/it was just a sacred cow" and it's grating.
That doesn't actually show that it's not a sacred cow. The point of sacred cows is that people consider them better than alternatives, not that people keep with them even though they don't like them.
 
The main reason why this wouldn't go in a sidebar is because the devs don't think that alternate system is good, and they wouldn't want to suggest what they see as a non-good system to their players.

...do they not realize this is 2015 and people have access to the internet so What's In The Corebook is no longer the sole information they are transmitting to players anymore?
 
...do they not realize this is 2015 and people have access to the internet so What's In The Corebook is no longer the sole information they are transmitting to players anymore?
No? I have no idea what you're getting at.

There is a meaningful difference between "shit actually written down in the corebook as an optional rule" and "shit thrown in a forum conversation because it satisfies some player but not considered good enough to make the cut in a book."
 
...do they not realize this is 2015 and people have access to the internet so What's In The Corebook is no longer the sole information they are transmitting to players anymore?
Yes. That's why they explicitly designed their system, if I recall certain developer comments correctly, to make it as inefficient and difficult and slow and unwieldy and annoying as possible to use in a PbP game online - or indeed even an IRC game, to some extent, where rolling slows things down more than in an in-person session - because they prefer to prioritise "traditional" tabletop sessions.
 
Yes. That's why they explicitly designed their system, if I recall certain developer comments correctly, to make it as inefficient and difficult and slow and unwieldy and annoying as possible to use in a PbP game online - or indeed even an IRC game, to some extent, where rolling slows things down more than in an in-person session - because they prefer to prioritise "traditional" tabletop sessions.
That would be a really weird thing to do, given how much of their own gaming takes place online.

If you have a dice roller bot that presents dice in order of numbers, it is actually faster and more convenient to use than rolling by hand for Ex3.
 
If you have a dice roller bot that presents dice in order of numbers, it is actually faster and more convenient to use than rolling by hand for Ex3.
Irrelevant. In PbP games, it's rerolling that dumps load onto the system - dicepool and success interactions that mean rerolling multiple times, sometimes waiting on enemy results before doing so. Each of those forces another stage of rolling, which in a PbP game takes forever. You can generally hold interest for one, maybe two rounds of rolls per action in a PbP format. What I understand of 3e - especially in highly complex subsystems like the Craft system - requires far more of that, and it kills interest. Perhaps not in one roll, or even one session, but endless bouts of rolling and rerolling is incredibly tedious online. It's the whole reason we abstracted most of it away in Kerisgame; it's dull as shit. And 3e has a lot of it.
 
Irrelevant. In PbP games, it's rerolling that dumps load onto the system - dicepool and success interactions that mean rerolling multiple times, sometimes waiting on enemy results before doing so. Each of those forces another stage of rolling, which in a PbP game takes forever. You can generally hold interest for one, maybe two rounds of rolls per action in a PbP format. What I understand of 3e - especially in highly complex subsystems like the Craft system - requires far more of that, and it kills interest. Perhaps not in one roll, or even one session, but endless bouts of rolling and rerolling is incredibly tedious online. It's the whole reason we abstracted most of it away in Kerisgame; it's dull as shit. And 3e has a lot of it.
Yeah but PbP is fundamentally fucked on a conceptual level. I have spent years browsing PbP forum after PbP forum, game after game. The entire concept is fundamentally bankrupt. All systems fail in front of the highly specific quirks and requirements presented by PbP. A functional system for that medium would have to be designed specifically for it, and would likely be largely narrative or single-roll in nature. Anything else cannot properly function. Trying to cater to PbP is poison, and an exercise in pointless suffering.
 
Yes. That's why they explicitly designed their system, if I recall certain developer comments correctly, to make it as inefficient and difficult and slow and unwieldy and annoying as possible to use in a PbP game online - or indeed even an IRC game, to some extent, where rolling slows things down more than in an in-person session - because they prefer to prioritise "traditional" tabletop sessions.

Do you know, why on earth, the developers would want to prioritize tabletop games to the detriment of PbP, for no apparent benefit to Tabletop?

It seems pointless and honestly a little mean. :sad:
 
Did any of the developers ever explain WHY?
Because I just genuinely can't see it.
So, I went over some of the old threads, and the reasoning seems to primarily be a mix of "it's been in the game since vampire, so it's not terrible" and "doing the sorts of comparisons that people bring up as the problem with the split are the actual problem, not the bp/xp split itself".
 
So, I went over some of the old threads, and the reasoning seems to primarily be a mix of "it's been in the game since vampire, so it's not terrible" and "doing the sorts of comparisons that people bring up as the problem with the split are the actual problem, not the bp/xp split itself".

... Just because it's tradition and my father's father did it a certain doesn't mean that it's a good way to handle it! Seriously, that's an amazingly stupid answer.

And seriously, an ad hominem? Tsk.
 
So, I went over some of the old threads, and the reasoning seems to primarily be a mix of "it's been in the game since vampire, so it's not terrible" and "doing the sorts of comparisons that people bring up as the problem with the split are the actual problem, not the bp/xp split itself".
"It's not a problem if nobody complains! Just stop caring, and all your problems are solved!"
 
That would be a really weird thing to do, given how much of their own gaming takes place online.

If you have a dice roller bot that presents dice in order of numbers, it is actually faster and more convenient to use than rolling by hand for Ex3.
You know what's even faster and more convenient than using a dice roller like you suggested?
Not over-using reroll mechanics.
 
You know what's even faster and more convenient than using a dice roller like you suggested?
Not over-using reroll mechanics.
Which is perfectly fine as long as you assume that there is no benefit to reroll mechanics and that nothing is lost by not using them.

Personally I like them just fine!
 
The main reason why this wouldn't go in a sidebar is because the devs don't think that alternate system is good, and they wouldn't want to suggest what they see as a non-good system to their players.
Except IIrC, the dev said it was good and designed to give players what the devs thought they would be buying with XP at roughly the same rate.
A functional system for that medium would have to be designed specifically for it, and would likely be largely narrative or single-roll in nature.
Note to self: get GURPS Action, which abstracts a great many things.

FATE's decent for PbP, as is Nobilis. In fact, most systems resolve everything except combat in single rolls.
 
In the interests of not putting words in Holden's mouth, the most thorough posts I've found that he made or referred to regarding the matter of BP/XP divide are probably these two.

Omicron is correct that there is no master post, but the above are as close to one as I know of.

That said,
Personally I like them just fine!
azoi referred to over-using re-roll mechanics, and, frankly, that you like them is irrelevant. One persons subjective experience is not a meaningful data point when assessing the quality of a system. Heck, I like re-rolls, at least in theory, but I don't consider that useful data unless I can articulate why - although it's probably worth examining in order to do so.
 
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