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General Exalted Thread

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notthepenguins said:
Ligier's sole mode of interaction in Malfeas is not 'the sun.'
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AFAIK he's got two bodies: The smith and the sun. One team summons him to Creation and ganks the smith, the other team hikes to Malfeas and attacks the sun.

On that note, I wonder if its possible to summon a specific body of the demon. Summoning the Green Sun is probably not smart, but when did that ever stop a Solar with an idea?

azoicennead said:
You're focusing too much on the example, rather than the general idea.
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The latter half of my post addresses the general idea. A demon with multiple bodies is probably going to be able to handle acting with both at the same time, so engaging both bodies isn't going to significantly affect his combat prowess. It would likely affect his mote expenditure, though, as Kylar brought up.
 
notthepenguins said:
Demons without multiple distinct forms are fully capable of colocation; I don't see any reason summoning would take one of Ligier's forms like that.
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Ah, I see what you mean now. That the smith could be both in Creation and Hell at the same time. Sorry, it's late here.

I wonder what sort of combat stats the Green Sun would have. How might you fight a star?
 
Aleph said:
A powerful Devil Tiger should ultimately balance against a powerful elder Solar, and a powerful elder Solar cannot solo Creation, let alone the Yozis.
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True, but there's an utterly massive gulf between "Can somehow match a single Titan in combat" and "Can solo Creation". While an elder Solar may theoretically(though perhaps not practically) be able to reach the level where he could accomplish the former, the latter is out of the question entirely. Not even the most wanked out Solar could hope to succeed at that.
 
Anasurimbor said:
True, but there's an utterly massive gulf between "Can somehow match a single Titan in combat" and "Can solo Creation". While an elder Solar may theoretically(though perhaps not practically) be able to reach the level where he could accomplish the former, the latter is out of the question entirely. Not even the most wanked out Solar could hope to succeed at that.
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For even the eldest of Solars to match a Primordial in combat, they have to fight the Primordial in an area outside the specialties of that Primordial IMO.

Like, to use the closest-to-canon example, force the Ebon Dragon into a straight-up-fight.
 
Peanuckle said:
Ah, I see what you mean now. That the smith could be both in Creation and Hell at the same time. Sorry, it's late here.

I wonder what sort of combat stats the Green Sun would have. How might you fight a star?
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Honestly, I wouldn't give the Green Sun stats. It's terrain: treat it as such. If you want to destroy it, then you need to hit the right spots (that you can populate with monsters/Liger) or use something on the same scale of combat wise (a fully crewed Titan Directional Fortress is probably the level of thing we are talking here). At that point, you should damn well be using a different combat system, given 2e vehicle combat sucks and 3e doesn't really have rules for this yet.
 
The Green Sun, using 2e assumptions, should probably be on the level of the Daystar, although maybe not quite as strong.
 
horngeek said:
The Green Sun, using 2e assumptions, should probably be on the level of the Daystar, although maybe not quite as strong.
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Definitely not as strong. The Daystar could go toe to toe with Primodials and win (as a function of Sol basically being Theion's Skynet). I meant a Titan Directional Fortress as defined in the fluff (ultimate military achievement from the decadence of the Deliberative) and not their mechanization.

(Honestly, I just want a big glorious war between Liger and a Directional Titan, that ultimately end in Liger loosing because Directional Titans represent the ultimate advance of a group that started by beating Third Circles. They should be the sort of thing that provokes 'oh shit' in everyone from the Yozi to Yu-Shan when they come online, as opposed to just another high end vehicle.)
 
Kylar said:
(Honestly, I just want a big glorious war between Liger and a Directional Titan, that ultimately end in Liger loosing because Directional Titans represent the ultimate advance of a group that started by beating Third Circles. They should be the sort of thing that provokes 'oh shit' in everyone from the Yozi to Yu-Shan when they come online, as opposed to just another high end vehicle.)
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Well, what really happens is that the Directional Titan gets squished by the Yozis, because taking something powerful enough and big enough to be actually noticeable to Malfeas into Hell and trying to murder a fetich will produce personal attention from them in a way that merely being an Exalt in shiny armour walking into Hell won't.

The point about Directional Titans is also that they were inefficient, ill-suited vanity projects that never saw real military use and were a profound sign of the decadence of the High First Age.
 
Has anyone tried to develop a house-rule that differentiates weapons? The current system feels extremely simplistic, with little reward for trying to play to character archetypes. The choice between a broadsword and a scimitar, both Medium weapons, should be fairly different, and yet the only real difference is a hacking tag and a balanced tag. Likewise there's very little difference between a reaper daiklaive and a regular daiklaive, and there should be more difference between shield and a warhammer than 2 accuracy, 4 damage, 2 defense, and a tag or two. I think it negatively impacts the enjoyment that can be gotten from combat, because there are very few mechanically different things to choose from, so the choice lacks a feeling of impact.

Tags were a great idea in theory, but there aren't enough different ones or effective ones for the ones in the core to be influential. And that's not even getting into how Heavy weapons are mechanically the weakest option, due to how accuracy doubles up as (normally) 1/2 damage as well. I've been thinking of trying to redesign them, and the point allocation for the light, medium, and heavy weapon spaces, but it feels like to big of a change to do and retain most prospective players' attention.
 
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EarthScorpion said:
Well, what really happens is that the Directional Titan gets squished by the Yozis, because taking something powerful enough and big enough to be actually noticeable to Malfeas into Hell and trying to murder a fetich will produce personal attention from them in a way that merely being an Exalt in shiny armour walking into Hell won't.

The point about Directional Titans is also that they were inefficient, ill-suited vanity projects that never saw real military use and were a profound sign of the decadence of the High First Age.
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Well, if you try and march a Directional Titan directly against all the Yozi, you deserve what happens to you, yeah.

But honestly, 'inefficient, ill-suited vanity projects' in the context of 'Exalted designers with to much time and money on their hands' tends to provoke images of unpredictable super weapons, not a bad weapons platform per say. One that's probably less then sustainable for any kind of extended operations even in the First Age, and in the context of the Age of Sorrows is akin to trying to maintain a modern aircraft carrier in Rome (except harder, just land the thing and use it as a city), but while they're active are basically unstoppable.

The 'oh shit' would be 'exactly which of the ill advised super weapons is still (somewhat) working and does the user have access to'. That would be subject of concern, IMHO.
 
Kylar said:
Well, if you try and march a Directional Titan directly against all the Yozi, you deserve what happens to you, yeah.

But honestly, 'inefficient, ill-suited vanity projects' in the context of 'Exalted designers with to much time and money on their hands' tends to provoke images of unpredictable super weapons, not a bad weapons platform per say. One that's probably less then sustainable for any kind of extended operations even in the First Age, and in the context of the Age of Sorrows is akin to trying to maintain a modern aircraft carrier in Rome (except harder, just land the thing and use it as a city), but while they're active are basically unstoppable.

The 'oh shit' would be 'exactly which of the ill advised super weapons is still (somewhat) working and does the user have access to'. That would be subject of concern, IMHO.
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The Directional Titans have their closest equivalent in the Death Star, I'd say. Yes, they're bloody powerful, but their weaknesses are even more gaping than that of said Death Star, and with the amount of resources they costed, you have to wonder what's the point?
 
horngeek said:
The Directional Titans have their closest equivalent in the Death Star, I'd say. Yes, they're bloody powerful, but their weaknesses are even more gaping than that of said Death Star, and with the amount of resources they costed, you have to wonder what's the point?
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Military bling. All the military bling.
 
Anasurimbor said:
True, but there's an utterly massive gulf between "Can somehow match a single Titan in combat" and "Can solo Creation". While an elder Solar may theoretically(though perhaps not practically) be able to reach the level where he could accomplish the former, the latter is out of the question entirely. Not even the most wanked out Solar could hope to succeed at that.
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Aleph said:
Nope. Devil Tigers trade increased flexibility for raw power. They top out at E10, while true Primordials are Essence N/A bullshit megaentities whose souls hit that level. A powerful Devil Tiger should ultimately balance against a powerful elder Solar, and a powerful elder Solar cannot solo Creation, let alone the Yozis.
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Wha? No, E10 is the maximum, even among Primordials. Even Ebon Dragon explicitly has Essence 10.

Furthermore, Essence 10 Solars are bound to surpass Primordials:
Elder Essence Minimums said:
Charms with an Essence minimum of 8 touch the very
foundation of the universe. The Solar lays hands upon the
forces of the very cosmos, and they recognize in her Essence
a peer.
Charms with an Essence minimum of 9 affect all the heav-
enly glory of the sun unbound. Solar power expands almost
beyond the capacity of the world to contain it. What is the
possible purpose of such great and terrible power?
Charms with an Essence minimum of 10 denote powers
beyond those which forged the universe. Not even the Pri-
mordials fully understand Essence 10; at this level of effect,
the intellects which defined existence find themselves in the
position of discovery. What challenges even the Primordials,
a Solar may come naturally to grasp and engender: power
beyond all reason.
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Broken25 said:
Hum. I don't think you can do this in Exalted.

Go to play Mage the Ascension :V
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Wait, Exalted is the game about mythos-level heroes doing the impossible, and I need to get down to the level of Mage to perform such a mythic task? ^_^
Hmmm . . .
1. Get Essence 7+ and Lore 7+ and Learn Shinmaic Calibration.
2. Punch the Shinma into the preferred shape, altering the laws of nature in the universe (not Creation) in order to make it possible.
3. ???
4. Profit!
beowolf said:
So... You want to destroy Creation and go back to the Infinite Wyld, but turn all the limited spirits and mortals into top-tier Raksha in the process?
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Bring it back to the way it was, but make everyone retain agency and be happier than in the previous iteration? Where do I sign up?
 
horngeek said:
The Directional Titans have their closest equivalent in the Death Star, I'd say. Yes, they're bloody powerful, but their weaknesses are even more gaping than that of said Death Star, and with the amount of resources they costed, you have to wonder what's the point?
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The thing to remember is that the Directional Titans were constructed by the Solars right after a rogue Primordial had just shown up and almost wrecked their shit. And these are Int 10, Lore 10, Excellencied up the wazoo super geniuses here.

Overwhelmingly overspent and useless baubles for anything that the Old Realm had to actually deal with? Oh yes.

More than well suited for their task of taking out a Third Circle Demon and all ten billion of his legions at once? Also, yes.

They were a weapon designed to fight the last war the Exalted faced (Primordial invasion) not the next war the Exalted faced (the Usurpation). Dismissing them as weak or easily taken out makes them into ridiculous status symbols. And the thing was they were, but they were also designed by the collective expertise of the Deliberative to kick Creation-threatening levels of ass.
 
Hazard said:
I am not one of them.
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And neither am I. But that doesn't mean it's not a possible worldview, and roleplaying is all about playing someone with a worldview (and other traits) very much unlike yours.
Sucal said:
Forgot Silken armour was a thing again...
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What do you mean again? Did Silken Armour stop being a thing at some point? I surely see it in second edition, and apparently it also is in third.
Broken25 said:
Is not explained, but i imagine that either they are completely separate, of their thoughts have a five day lag from one body to another.
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You know, at this point I think everybody adds the five-day lag onto things where it was never applied canonically nor even fits. I mean, if something has a five-day lag in its thought processes between two locales, then it is not simultaneous, which Third-Circles are.
rikalous said:
And custom transhumanity charms means their tops can be made out of rubber and their bottoms made out of springs.
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Do not make fun of Tigger's transhumanity charms. Where I come from*, there's a 100% official setting in which Tigger, Pooh, Robin et al. are essentially unbound Primordials rampaging through existence. Oh, and many of them can turn you into monsters based on taking something away from you (e.g. skin, bones, height, blood etc.).

* == GURPS, that is.
 
horngeek said:
The Directional Titans have their closest equivalent in the Death Star, I'd say. Yes, they're bloody powerful, but their weaknesses are even more gaping than that of said Death Star, and with the amount of resources they costed, you have to wonder what's the point?
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To attack that big scorpion-thing that was so big that it sting could only target something as large as a single Direction or larger?
 
vicky_molokh said:
Wha? No, E10 is the maximum, even among Primordials. Even Ebon Dragon explicitly has Essence 10.

Furthermore, Essence 10 Solars are bound to surpass Primordials:
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... oh god, I'd actually forgotten that RotSE statted out a Primordial.

Urgh. Let me just go and cry in a corner for a while.

To explain... what a lot of people have been saying about how the later period of 2e mechanised certain things in ways that clashed very badly with previous elements of the line, and gave prominence to areas of the game that until that point had been very deliberately avoided? That writeup - that whole book, really, but especially that writeup - is a good example. We have more Yozis written up and fully mechanically statted out than we do Third Circle Demons. You know; the endbosses that you're actually meant to interact with. Yozis are the video game level. All the way back to 1e, you weren't really meant to be able to get into a punching match with Malfeas, because a) by that point the system has broken so far beyond belief that there's no point in having it anymore, and b) you fight Malfeas by fighting his Third Circles culminating in an endboss fight with Ligier; that is what Third Circles are for.
vicky_molokh said:
1. Get Essence 7+ and Lore 7+ and Learn Shinmaic Calibration.
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argh argh argh that charm argh

Yeah, it's not really a secret that basically any Charm with an Essence prereq of 6+ is terrible. Like, this isn't just me talking; it's a widely held opinion. Dreams of the First Age was shit for elder Charms; it's where fucking Zeal came from. That one in particular takes a good long look at Sorcery, and everything thematic about what Sorcery is meant to be able to do and what parts of the setting should be accomplishable by it, and how Charms are mostly your personal scale magic and for huge flashy wide-scope effects you become a sorcerer because it plays at the scale where the smallest attack spell takes out entire battalions, and then it goes "HAHAHA NOPE LOL" and boots it out of the way and makes something that should be a massive Adamant Working taking dozens of sorcerers conducting massive rituals at all five Elemental Poles into something that a single Exalt can casually whip off on their own.
 
Aleph said:
argh argh argh that charm argh

Yeah, it's not really a secret that basically any Charm with an Essence prereq of 6+ is terrible. Like, this isn't just me talking; it's a widely held opinion. Dreams of the First Age was shit for elder Charms; it's where fucking Zeal came from. That one in particular takes a good long look at Sorcery, and everything thematic about what Sorcery is meant to be able to do and what parts of the setting should be accomplishable by it, and how Charms are mostly your personal scale magic and for huge flashy wide-scope effects you become a sorcerer because it plays at the scale where the smallest attack spell takes out entire battalions, and then it goes "HAHAHA NOPE LOL" and boots it out of the way and makes something that should be a massive Adamant Working taking dozens of sorcerers conducting massive rituals at all five Elemental Poles into something that a single Exalt can casually whip off on their own.
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An opinion held by the developers as well, in fact,

Some Essence 6-10 Charms are cool shit (Should The Sun Not Rise and Guarding Star Tactics are both Charms I'm rather fond of, for different reasons), but overall it's, uh.

(And to be fair, you can't actually do the entire Salian Working with Shinmaic Calibration- you can build the framework, but actually integrating the Miracle Shell into Creation is left as an exercise for the Exalt in question)
 
EarthScorpion said:
And yet aforementioned developers still wrote Shinmaic Calibration as part of the DotFA "errata".

Not even in the first tranche. No. They thought it was a good idea to put in the document intended to fix DotFA.
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Stop making me sob harder, dammit, that's the opposite of what you're meant to be doing.

Like, literally the opposite. You're terrible at this. :p
 
vicky_molokh said:
What do you mean again? Did Silken Armour stop being a thing at some point? I surely see it in second edition, and apparently it also is in third.
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It wasn't in the leak, instead we had discrete essence armour. Everyone figured we'd have no silk armour after that, because its a big massive 'yeah, every martial artist has a 4+ merit dot tax now. Your basically an idiot to be a black claw/crane/ebon shadow stylist without it
 
Aleph said:
... oh god, I'd actually forgotten that RotSE statted out a Primordial.

Urgh. Let me just go and cry in a corner for a while.

To explain... what a lot of people have been saying about how the later period of 2e mechanised certain things in ways that clashed very badly with previous elements of the line, and gave prominence to areas of the game that until that point had been very deliberately avoided? That writeup - that whole book, really, but especially that writeup - is a good example. We have more Yozis written up and fully mechanically statted out than we do Third Circle Demons. You know; the endbosses that you're actually meant to interact with. Yozis are the video game level. All the way back to 1e, you weren't really meant to be able to get into a punching match with Malfeas, because a) by that point the system has broken so far beyond belief that there's no point in having it anymore, and b) you fight Malfeas by fighting his Third Circles culminating in an endboss fight with Ligier; that is what Third Circles are for.
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You keep calling them 'video game levels', which actually makes me recall the raid (level) of Deathwing from WoW:Cataclysm. Yes, he's a whole level, and yet he is also the endboss. That actually seems to perfectly match the canonical duality of Primordials/Yozis.

Aleph said:
argh argh argh that charm argh

Yeah, it's not really a secret that basically any Charm with an Essence prereq of 6+ is terrible. Like, this isn't just me talking; it's a widely held opinion. Dreams of the First Age was shit for elder Charms; it's where fucking Zeal came from. That one in particular takes a good long look at Sorcery, and everything thematic about what Sorcery is meant to be able to do and what parts of the setting should be accomplishable by it, and how Charms are mostly your personal scale magic and for huge flashy wide-scope effects you become a sorcerer because it plays at the scale where the smallest attack spell takes out entire battalions, and then it goes "HAHAHA NOPE LOL" and boots it out of the way and makes something that should be a massive Adamant Working taking dozens of sorcerers conducting massive rituals at all five Elemental Poles into something that a single Exalt can casually whip off on their own.
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  1. What's a point of a game setting of mythic heroes with an Essence range of 1-10 if anything above 5 is terrible? Once they get to E6+, people want to get something qualitatively different from 'I can punch with fifty two dice of damage, unless Perfected away'.
  2. Note that Shinmaic Calibration is from the book that errated away Zeal, not the book where Zeal comes from.
  3. Maybe it indeed should've been in Sorcery. Though it feels kinda wrong that any world-shaping has to be through Sorcery. I would've been more comfortable if different spheres of world-shaping lived in different Abilities. E.g. altering the laws of nature so that societies become incapable of forming vertical hierarchies would be a Socialize shaping, while changing laws of nature so that nobody could use ranged weapons would be a War shaping. Just a couple over-the-top examples.
  4. I thought the Salinian Working was done by the legendary Salina, not by a committee of sorcs. If I am wrong, where should I read up on the Salinian Working?
 
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