I don't think it's even a little bit controversial in the wider fan community that the corebook's sample difficulties as well as many of its QCs are wildly undertuned and like, not really coherent with the design of the system, and it's very tiresome to pretend that they are.

I don't know what to tell you if the idea that 9 years into the lifecycle of the game, the wider fan community is going to be comprised pretty much exclusively of people who have been playing the game long enough to actually get way better at it than some rando who picks up the book for the first time, has not occurred to you on your own?

Why are we even having this argument in the first place? I'm not even saying "it's not undertuned", I'm saying "if you're designing a highly complex system and releasing it to the public for the first time, it's probably a good thing to undertune stuff somewhat". Yes, as it turns out, undertuning the difficulties to the extent the core did actually helped very little with player onboarding and retention because holy shit this system is just really fucking unwieldy, but it's not like the approach was flawed to begin with.
 
I don't know what to tell you if the idea that 9 years into the lifecycle of the game, the wider fan community is going to be comprised pretty much exclusively of people who have been playing the game long enough to actually get way better at it than some rando who picks up the book for the first time, has not occurred to you on your own?

Why are we even having this argument in the first place? I'm not even saying "it's not undertuned", I'm saying "if you're designing a highly complex system and releasing it to the public for the first time, it's probably a good thing to undertune stuff somewhat". Yes, as it turns out, undertuning the difficulties to the extent the core did actually helped very little with player onboarding and retention because holy shit this system is just really fucking unwieldy, but it's not like the approach was flawed to begin with.
I think having undertuned content isn't necessarily the problem, but have no better calibrated content or guidelines? That is. Especially because the problems don't start from mid essence characters who have really come into their own and have a lot of options. Starting characters can easily show the flaws, and in a way that the book and genre encourage. Especially because it puts a lot more on the storyteller's shoulders.
 
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What'd help vastly more with player onboarding would be to explain how to build a character and what the system expects you to do (if you don't outright make those mandatory).
Say, explaining that you probably want to take at least one Ox-Body Technique, or explaining that you want at least one Charm that breaks the Defence Cap (such as Reed in the Wind or Dipping Swallow Defense) or IDK stuff like that I don't know Solars that well. Or giving a list of example charms that you want to take if you want to build to a certain archetype of character.

If you do that, you're narrowing the gap between players who don't have a deep understanding of the system, and players who do.
Which in turn means you, as a designer, can design NPCs more with a common balance in mind, rather than under-tuning them so that they don't overwhelm the PCs put together by players who don't understand your system.
 
I don't know what to tell you if the idea that 9 years into the lifecycle of the game, the wider fan community is going to be comprised pretty much exclusively of people who have been playing the game long enough to actually get way better at it than some rando who picks up the book for the first time, has not occurred to you on your own?
You can certainly tell me this, but like, a lot of things that are not true in my experience don't occur to me, I guess. There are certainly newer players who don't have anything like the kind of experience you're referring to. I know many people who have gotten into this edition at different points along its lifespan. people get on board with every new splat book, people try Essence first and then try out 3e. This is a very condescending way to make a very dubious generalisation.
 
the deeply alienating feeling of talking to another exalted fan and casually mentioning some fifteen-year old grudge over a white wolf forums debate about some obscure detail of second edition lore that every exalted fan obviously knows about only for it to turn out they got into the game with third edition in 2019 and have no fucking idea how many penises the bishop's true form is supposed to have
 
You can certainly tell me this, but like, a lot of things that are not true in my experience don't occur to me, I guess. There are certainly newer players who don't have anything like the kind of experience you're referring to. I know many people who have gotten into this edition at different points along its lifespan. people get on board with every new splat book, people try Essence first and then try out 3e. This is a very condescending way to make a very dubious generalisation.


Speaking of condescension immediately after dropping the incredibly choice sentence of "I don't think it's even a little bit controversial in the wider fan community that the corebook's sample difficulties as well as many of its QCs are wildly undertuned and like, not really coherent with the design of the system, and it's very tiresome to pretend that they are" seems, uhh, somewhat rich to me, but maybe I have just misread your tone. If that is the case, I'm sorry for sounding catty, it just seemed very much like you were calling me a clueless and tiresome idiot in language dressed up to sound civil. If that was not how you meant it, I do earnestly apologize - I legitimately am very bad at reading subtext!

However, as far as dubious generalizations are concerned, my experience with teaching the system to about 20 different people is that the average person who is newly introduced to the game is typically very overwhelmed, doesn't really understand the Charms on their sheet even if they manage to remember them all, and is usually meaningfully challenged by the generic shikari QC statblocks (in the sense that an encounter feels tense and exciting for them). It is of course possible that I'm playing with unusually stupid people and/or am consistently bad at teaching the game, but given that these players have largely proceeded to become much more confident and built far more capable characters as we kept playing, it sure seems to me that the problem wasn't with us and the antagonists in the core are a perfectly serviceable on-ramp for the game.
 
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the deeply alienating feeling of talking to another exalted fan and casually mentioning some fifteen-year old grudge over a white wolf forums debate about some obscure detail of second edition lore that every exalted fan obviously knows about only for it to turn out they got into the game with third edition in 2019 and have no fucking idea how many penises the bishop's true form is supposed to have

It's especially funny because 2019 was six years ago and by normal hobby standards that would make you a bit of an old-timer. But tabletop RPGs, and Exalted in particular, have different standards.
 
the deeply alienating feeling of talking to another exalted fan and casually mentioning some fifteen-year old grudge over a white wolf forums debate about some obscure detail of second edition lore that every exalted fan obviously knows about only for it to turn out they got into the game with third edition in 2019 and have no fucking idea how many penises the bishop's true form is supposed to have

just think, Omi

soon you'll be conversing with people who've been playing for 2 years and got into the game with XS and have only read XS books and experienced the line through XS gameplay
 
the deeply alienating feeling of talking to another exalted fan and casually mentioning some fifteen-year old grudge over a white wolf forums debate about some obscure detail of second edition lore that every exalted fan obviously knows about only for it to turn out they got into the game with third edition in 2019 and have no fucking idea how many penises the bishop's true form is supposed to have
...so, how many penises should he have had? What's the correct opinion here?
 
the deeply alienating feeling of talking to another exalted fan and casually mentioning some fifteen-year old grudge over a white wolf forums debate about some obscure detail of second edition lore that every exalted fan obviously knows about only for it to turn out they got into the game with third edition in 2019 and have no fucking idea how many penises the bishop's true form is supposed to have
The only things I remember about the pre-3e Bishop are that he was one of the four people the Green Lady was quadruple agenting, he had a dumb evil Buddhist religion, and was really annoyed by Whitewall existing.

just think, Omi

soon you'll be conversing with people who've been playing for 2 years and got into the game with XS and have only read XS books and experienced the line through XS gameplay
I still remember the day I was looking at the comment section of something (I think it was a YouTube video), and saw people complaining about how they didn't make good cartoons like The Amazing World of Gumball anymore, which was the show that first made me think to myself that they didn't make good cartoons anymore.

It was the clearest instance I can recall of feeling a part of my soul die in real time.
 
the deeply alienating feeling of talking to another exalted fan and casually mentioning some fifteen-year old grudge over a white wolf forums debate about some obscure detail of second edition lore that every exalted fan obviously knows about only for it to turn out they got into the game with third edition in 2019 and have no fucking idea how many penises the bishop's true form is supposed to have
how dare you remind me
 
the deeply alienating feeling of talking to another exalted fan and casually mentioning some fifteen-year old grudge over a white wolf forums debate about some obscure detail of second edition lore that every exalted fan obviously knows about only for it to turn out they got into the game with third edition in 2019 and have no fucking idea how many penises the bishop's true form is supposed to have
I've got bad news: I got into Exalted in 2019, and now I'm a long term fixture of a couple different communities, I run games sometimes, I have written hundreds of thousands of unnecessarily lore accurate Exalted fan content, and sometimes people talk to me like I know what I'm talking about.

I unfortunately think you're going to have to pick a more recent year for this, in the future.
 
Honestly I don't even care about the Bishop.

You want Fun Deathlord Facts, you want the First and Forsaken Lion, who in 2e was firmly established as having forty undead babies physically chained to him at all times.

The logistics of this, I leave as an exercise for the reader.

Edit: I have reviewed the Deep Lore and this was apparently a thing right the way from first edition. "Incubi child-slaves", to be precise.
 
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- A Dawn fresh out of chargen should be able to throw down with in-setting heavyweights like Ahlat or Ma-Ha-Suchi and have a reasonable chance of coming out on top

Maybe I'm playing imagining the wrong game, but this would not be one of my assumptions when creating a Solar and it would not be one of my assumptions if I headed a team tasked with writing a new edition of Exalted. A newly-Exalted Solar might be powerful, absolutely, but they should not be immune to the Wyld Hunt, even if they're a Dawn.

I feel like the idea that starting Solars should be on equal footing with high-essence foes leads to the idea that Solars are the Protagonists of the setting and everybody else are NPCs. Why play anybody else if a Solar can come in and take a Glorious Solar Shit on everything you've done without a meaningful countermeasure? How can anybody else matter if Solars are just that damn powerful from the jump? From what I've seen reported, questions like these were a problem in Exalted 2e. I think one of the strengths of Exalted's setting is that there is no clear 'protagonist' faction like there is in, say, 40k. Giving the Solars the power to not just compete in the dog-eat-dog world of Creation, but to warp it around themselves inherently makes Creation a less interesting place, I think.

Solars should be powerful wildcards that can and should affect the setting, like how the fiction of 3e treats them, at least from the stuff that I remember. Even if I play read and think about Exalted for the escapism, I want my escapism to be exciting! There's no excitement to be had if all my opponents are tissue paper.
 
Maybe I'm playing imagining the wrong game, but this would not be one of my assumptions when creating a Solar and it would not be one of my assumptions if I headed a team tasked with writing a new edition of Exalted. A newly-Exalted Solar might be powerful, absolutely, but they should not be immune to the Wyld Hunt, even if they're a Dawn.

I feel like the idea that starting Solars should be on equal footing with high-essence foes leads to the idea that Solars are the Protagonists of the setting and everybody else are NPCs. Why play anybody else if a Solar can come in and take a Glorious Solar Shit on everything you've done without a meaningful countermeasure? How can anybody else matter if Solars are just that damn powerful from the jump?


I'm sorry, but this is just a somewhat incomprehensible take to me? Yes, a newly-Exalted Solar shouldn't be immune to the Wyld Hunt. Neither should Ma-Ha-Suchi or Ahlat (or rather, the reason they should not be concerned about getting Wyld Hunted should have more to do with boring questions of supply lines, logistics and the Wyld Hunt's need to bring supporting troops into enemy territory if they want to mount a successful attack on a very distant and inconvenient location such as the Nameless Lair rather than their ability to personally solo a Wyld Hunt's worth of Dragon-Blooded).

The rest of your post makes even less sense to me! A good 80% of those freshly-Exalted Solars will be noodly-armed Twilights, scheming Eclipses, larcenous Nights and oratorially-inclined Zeniths - not exactly the sort of people you have to be concerned about, if your main issue is "they will personally waltz into my throne room and bash my face in". (Admittedly, if you have been steadily building up your vast empire of crime, the emergence of Solar Sherlock Holmes in your area should be a concern, but even that shouldn't just be a case of "he glances vaguely in your direction and all your schemes come unraveled".)

Of the remaining 30 Dawns, you can expect a grand total of 6 being active in your whole Direction at once, at any given time. Or, more realistically, around 3, if we count the eight directions as separate and maintain a reasonable buffer for the vague category of "currently unattached to a host, in other realms of existence, out of commission for esoteric reasons, or living incognito on the Blessed Isle". Of those 3, maybe one will actually have the capability to personally come in and ruin your day - it is eminently possible for a Dawn to be practically impossible to kill but no more of a threat than a Dragon-Blood offensively speaking, very swift or perceptive but roughly on par with a reasonably experienced Celestial otherwise, or just... currently not much of a fighter (watch out for them in two years though!). So, a realistic answer to the question of "why would I play anybody else if a Solar can just come in and take my lunch" is "a Solar is not going to come in and take your lunch, because your whole entire Direction has one Solar who could even have a realistic chance of doing that in the first place, and they're probably otherwise occupied".

I also take umbrage with the implication that just because a chargen Solar could, theoretically, waltz up to Ahlat or Ma-Ha-Suchi and beat them to death (maybe, with some luck), that automatically means everything you've ever built will necessarily be burnt down and the earth salted the moment said Solar shows up on your doorstep. Do you have no allies? No underlings? No army, no infrastructure, no favors to call in, no treasury to draw upon for some earth-shakingly powerful Artifact that could tilt the balance in your favor, nothing? Just because the Dawn can take on Ahlat in a white room (maybe, if they have a good build and get lucky with their dice rolls) doesn't mean they can also solo Ahlat, his brides, and his whole entire spirit court all at once. It just means that if an entire circle of PCs puts their mind to it and scheme, beg, cajole, sabotage and do everything else in their power to undermine his alliances over the course of a whole entire story arc, and then manage to deliver the Dawn to his throne room uninjured and with a full mote pool, they have a better than even chance of getting out of there victoriously. I think that's a perfectly valid and appropriate goal for the first major story arc of a campaign. Others may disagree! I wouldn't even be mad if a new edition of the game dropped and said "yeah we're envisioning this sort of story arc as more of a... mid-point for a chronicle kind of thing"!

Lastly, I think Exalted is just... not the sort of game where your ability to bash someone's face in is really supposed to matter all that much in the grand scheme of things? I think the game line has very consistently been communicating, for decades, that its idea of challenge is not meant to come from "can I do the thing?", but rather "can I do the thing and cope with all the unintended consequences that fall on my head in the aftermath?". Like, yeah, cool, you've beaten the shit out of Ahlat and maybe even got your party's Twilight to deliver the killing blow so he won't even regenerate. Congratulations, you now control Harborhead. What does everybody else think about this? How does the Realm feel about losing a big and important Cathak-controlled satrapy right as they are on the cusp of civil war? How does this play with House Cathak's position of "teehee we will just support whoever seems like the best candidate for the throne" - will they feel like they can afford to dispatch a major force to deal with your burgeoning empire? Will other Houses feel like going "oh hi, we'd sure be happy to help you with this unfortunate Harborhead situation if only we were on the throne" will help them curry favor? What do Ahlat's godly allies and friends think about the fact that you guys have just gone and forever-murdered someone they've had some sort of a relationship with for millennia? What do the people of Harborhead think about you guys doing that to the god whose worship has been, like, a major cultural and religious anchor for the entire region? What's going to happen to the whole cattle-raiding thing now that "war" and "cattle" are no longer necessarily intertwined under the auspices of the South's directional god of war? Speaking of which, who are going to make a play for trying to become the new Southern God of War now? What will that look like? Will it involve your new empire? How?

I think those are the sort of questions Exalted is more interested in posing after the PCs throw a giant monkey wrench into the whole lovingly-built little Rube Goldberg machine of politics and mayhem that is any even half-decently written Exalted location, and in order for those questions to be posed, it is fundamentally necessary that the PCs be able to effect that kind of change.

But that's, just, like, my opinion, man.
 
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'You can solo major Gods out of chargen alone, but you still need to go through their army/followers/web of contact and survive the aftermath' seems pretty expected power-level imo.
 
I've got bad news: I got into Exalted in 2019, and now I'm a long term fixture of a couple different communities, I run games sometimes, I have written hundreds of thousands of unnecessarily lore accurate Exalted fan content, and sometimes people talk to me like I know what I'm talking about.

I unfortunately think you're going to have to pick a more recent year for this, in the future.
i am withering into dust as we speak
 
I got into exalted around 2012 with a 2e game set in the west. I played a Twilight and acted like a scavanger building a gang fleet to go full mad max (but with water). It was pretty darn fun. I knew forum arguments from osmosis cause my ST bitched about arguments they had online lmfao.
 
I don't remember the exact year I got into Exalted, but I remember how: years before 3e dropped online someone introduced me to Exalted through an Expy of a KoC character (the Elegant Nova) and then when 3e was announced I backed it pretty much instantly and started looking for games.

I feel like the idea that starting Solars should be on equal footing with high-essence foes leads to the idea that Solars are the Protagonists of the setting and everybody else are NPCs.

... Well yeah they kinda are the protagonists. Their return is the biggest wrench thrown into the plans of everyone else.

Their Exaltation selects people basically at random, they get immense power. They also have nothing to really tie them down to the world which means they can come from anywhere, be anything you want.

Frankly from what I understand this problem was so much worse in 1e and 2e it's not even funny.

Why play anybody else if a Solar can come in and take a Glorious Solar Shit on everything you've done without a meaningful countermeasure? How can anybody else matter if Solars are just that damn powerful from the jump?

Depends on which Exalt splat you're talking about, honestly. All off the top of my head without much thought, others can probably add on to this:

Deebs: What they lack in raw power (and frankly, they still have a lot of it) they make up for by being both the most entrenched socially and being able to operate openly as Exalted. Unless you're deliberately going out of your way to make an Outcaste with no friends (and frankly I don't get why you would?), a Deeb is never going to be fighting you alone, and even if you manage to beat them, they have friends and family that will hunt you down. A deeb is the only Exalt type that can show up in a town and expect a parade in his honor before he even knows the town's name.

Lunars: Their power is more widely applicable than a Solar's and it's not so far beneath them as to be useless or constantly outshined. Yeah, a Solar swordsman will generally beat a Lunar in pure swordplay, but that's why the Lunar disarms the Solar and wrestles them to the ground. Also, Lunars have it built into their concept that they can, if they so choose, have a Solar/Abyssal/Infernal boytoy that they keep on a leash, giving you two Exalts in one. (or the Solar can keep you on a leash, if that's what you're into >.>)

Sidereal: Bro, your coworkers are gods and you've got probably the most creative charmset in the entire game. You can punch someone so hard they turn into a duck, that you can then ride as a noble steed into battle. Your dodge charmset also makes people fall in love with you. The Investigation tree is all about getting the world to tell you stuff.

Abyssals: You get everything Solars get, except you have an entrenched power structure helping you out. You get to be goth both in the rebellious teen after a bad break-up sense, and in the 'build the tower's steeple as high as you possibly can because it looks cool' sense. You can be a slavering obedient knight of oblivion, or you can strike out on your own and seek redemption, and both are viable!

And that's just the Exalt types we currently have 3e rules for, don't even get me started on Getimians.

"What about Alchemicals?"
Frankly I haven't read them enough to comment beyond 'cool robot'.
 
They're quite powerful with the exception that their offensive Strength suite is kind of badly undertuned at lower levels.
Well yes but I wasn't really thinking in terms of raw power so much as 'why would you play this over a Solar' because if you *are* looking only at raw power a Solaroid is probably the best option, that or Lunars if you want something more generalist.

And if I was forced to offer my stupid unvarnished opinion on something I've only lightly skimmed, I would point out that Alchemicals have the ability to switch up their charmsets, and submodules mean they get many powerful effects in each of their charms at a relatively low cost. (That is without doing the math on these effects myself). And if you want science fantasy over regular fantasy, you can't get better.
 
- A Dawn fresh out of chargen should be able to throw down with in-setting heavyweights like Ahlat or Ma-Ha-Suchi and have a reasonable chance of coming out on top
This is definitely not true. If they try to fight either of those two right out of CC they're either going to get turned into soggy meatball sauce or they're running around with one of, like, three highly optimized builds everyone agrees are mechanical broken. If you try to fight two of the oldest, strongest, scariest people in the setting, you're probably going to die. Ahlat will mulch you and Suchi has an army at his beck and call and has been playing this game since before the Jade Prison was constructed in the first place.

The rest of your post makes even less sense to me! A good 80% of those freshly-Exalted Solars will be noodly-armed Twilights, scheming Eclipses, larcenous Nights and oratorially-inclined Zeniths - not exactly the sort of people you have to be concerned about, if your main issue is "they will personally waltz into my throne room and bash my face in".
This is also deeply wrong. Even if you're not a Melee, Brawl, or MA Supernal you can still do horrible things, Zeniths and Nights especially can be rather horrific. Resistance Supernal+almost any combat ability is quite powerful, as is a Night caste's abilities to grab Supernal Stealth or Thrown. They won't do it quite as well as a Dawn, but they can fill much the same role if they really want to.
 
I don't think that a chargen Dawn Caste being able to reliably kill elder Exalts is like, desirable, especially not if they don't even have to be a bizarre optimisation monster. That they are arguably capable of doing this is a combination of certain Solar abilities being badly overtuned and a lot of QCs for Lunar elders etc. being really conservatively written. Like, I think that Solar should definitely be one of the more dangerous people alive, but immediately trying to fight a millennia old Full Moon or Chosen of Battles shouldn't be a sure thing either that you feel confident about winning. That's not particularly good for the setting, and like...

"How do I challenge my Solar PCs when the Dawn wrecks anything balanced for the group and if I balance for the Dawn the other characters would explode" is a legitimately serious recurring problem for new STs, and the stock "you don't" response at some point just feels like more of a cope than anything.
 
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