So, I'm looking at playing in a Modern game with some friends. Specifically, I'm going to be playing a Sidereal for the first time. The trouble is that I find existing destiny rules incredibly boring, so with the ST's blessing I've put together a homebrew replacement for ascending and descending destinies. I'd appreciate both a review of my concept and some help putting reasonable numbers in all the places I haven't come up with any yet.

DESTINY-CRAFTING
This is an extended dramatic action with a variable roll interval that ranges from minutes to years, numbers and pool to be determined. The number of accumulated successes is used to calculate (or possibly just becomes) the Durability of the destiny. Where the roll interval is one day or longer, eight hours of work per day is assumed - less will slow progress, while more will only apply at a 1:2 ratio. Regardless of the chosen interval, only five intervals may usefully be spent in crafting the destiny - thereafter, no further work will improve it. The roll interval also directly becomes the action interval for the destiny. By accepting a point of paradox, or two points of paradox if the roll interval is at least a week, the action interval can instead be stepped up by one type - minutes become hours, hours become days, days weeks, weeks months, months years and years decades.

Each destiny has three important elements: a College, a goal, and a target. The target is always an individual, and must be unambiguously identified by the fate-worker at the beginning of work. The more familiar the crafter is with the target, the easier it is to craft the destiny - close personal familiarity grants <numbers>, knowledge of the target's birth date, name and location grants <smaller numbers>, access to a copy of the target's signature permits baseline operation, knowing only an official detail (birth name, legal name, SSN etc.) of the target levies <small penalty>, and without even that the crafter labours under <crushing penalty>. If by some chance an ambiguous destiny is crafted - perhaps "The murderer of Peleps Deled" is nominated, but in fact two people shared in that act - or a person unknown by the Loom is targeted, the destiny will fail harmlessly when released, although the crafter will not be aware of this unless and until they attempt to invoke the destiny directly. Similarly, no character can have more than five destinies laid upon them at once, and any further destinies will snarl back on the creator with no effect save a single point of paradox.

Once the target of the destiny is determined, the crafter must nominate a goal for the destiny. The specificity of this goal is limited by the architect's knowledge at the time of crafting: any specific characters or magical objects in the goal must be named in full, or else be defined by a direct relationship with the target, so that "The target is to fall in love with their best friend" is acceptable, but "The target is to fall in love with their best friend's spouse" is not unless the crafter can name that person.

Having named the goal, the crafter's player should work with the Storyteller to determine under which Division of the Bureau of Destiny it most accurately falls. In most cases this should be obvious, but in ambiguous cases the Storyteller's decision is final. The crafter then selects a primary College under the auspices of that Division. Optionally, up to (higher of Essence and primary College) additional Colleges can be added to the destiny, at the cost of <number> accumulated successes, at any time before the destiny is released. The crafter must have at least one dot in each such College.

Finally, the crafter may optionally specify a schedule for the destiny's triggers. This may be as irregular or even random as desired, or even contingent on the actions or circumstances of the target, although any such conditions should be simple enough to be stated in a short sentence, and depend only on facts detectable with normal human senses in the same scene as the target. Without this specification, the destiny's behaviour is left to the Storyteller to direct as best suits the needs of the game. Under normal circumstances, the destiny will never trigger more often than (lower of Essence and primary College) times in a month, but this threshold may be raised to any extent by accepting a number of points of paradox equal to the excess triggers desired. The destiny's schedule is plotted out on the scale of an action interval, and repeats each interval.

When the crafter is satisfied with the state of the destiny, it is the work of a moment's concentration to release it into Fate. The crafter should decide whether they want to retain some measure of control of it or release it completely - only (Essence) destinies may be maintained in a controlled state by a single character. Once released, a destiny lies quiescent for a single roll interval, integrating with the existing plans on the Loom. After this period, as often as its schedule dictates the destiny will work to create coincidences which steer its target towards its goal. These coincidences are strictly limited to those which fall under the auspices of the Colleges involved in the destiny's creation, and are determined by the storyteller. Due to the nature of the destiny, these coincidences cannot depend on changes to the course of Fate which predate the destiny's release (although at the Storyteller's discretion they can take advantage of natural coincidences). It is the nature of destinies to act with subtlety, so they will not cause any event which truly strains credulity - if an average person would be inclined to call any single event 'more than coincidence', it is beyond an undirected destiny, although multiple events may form an unbelievable pattern or sequence.

At the end of each action interval, and whenever the destiny expresses itself, the destiny loses a point of Durability. In the normal course of things, it will deplete itself over time, peacefully attempting to fulfil its goal. However, in extremis, a destiny may be repurposed by its creator, provided they have not relinquished control. When the creator is in the same scene as the target of the destiny, at the cost of a single point of willpower they may cause the destiny to throw off a coincidence of their choice. Such emergency fateworkings are under no obligation to follow the destiny's goal, but otherwise follow all the normal rules of destiny, and in fact are stricter still - the changes thus evoked are not retroactive, and so must either involve only elements already present in the scene or take some time to materialize. This desperate act can only be performed once per scene per destiny, and is a miscellaneous action. Finally, the creator of a destiny may cancel it at any time while they are in the same scene as the target, likewise with a miscellaneous action. Cancelled destinies dissipate harmlessly, but often leave a single omen of their primary College as they depart.
 
I put together a updated version of Mountain Spire. Having only five charms to build up to "giant statue body" kind of forced me to raise it to five dots, so then I had to crank up the rest of it to match.

Mountain Spire (White Jade Wrackstaff, •••••)

The history of Mountain Spire is largely unknown. At the height of the Great Contagion, its last, forgotten wielder died in the Court of Bright Wisdom, and Mountain Spire lay abandoned there for centuries. The blood apes sorcerously bound to that ruined manse could not take it, since they were tasked to defend the Court against all threats, including the theft of valuable artifacts. It lay forgotten until quite recently, when it was found by a young Solar who claimed it for his own.

Mountain Spire is a white jadesteel staff with a solid white jade cap, it is decorated with an artfully-applied brown patina that slowly gives way to speckled green towards the base. It resembles nothing so much as a towering mountain with a treeline and a snowy peak, distorted into a cylindrical staff. Its Evocations also follow this theme, reflecting the durability and enormity of the mountains.

Mountain Spire has a single hearthstone socket nestled between the shaft and the jade cap.

Evocations of Mountain Spire
A Solar or Terrestrial wielder may commit three extra motes to Mountain Spire; if she does so, any withering attack she suffers has a single success removed from its damage roll.

Thousand-Stone Smash
Cost:
1m; Mins: Essence 1; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Dual
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: None
Though Mountain Spire seems no larger or heavier than any other wrackstaff, it can strike with the force of a weapon many times its size. For the duration of a single attack, it loses the Shield tag and gains the Smashing tag. Additionally, withering attacks convert a single die of damage to an automatic success, while decisive attacks may be made Smashing at no initiative cost (although the Defense penalty still applies).
At Essence 2, the wielder may choose to have Mountain Spire briefly expand when invoking this charm. In addition to the above effects, Mountain Spire momentarily becomes a Heavy Artifact weapon and gains the Two-Handed tag. (This increases its withering damage by 2, its overwhelming value by 1, and reduces its withering accuracy by 2.)

Mountain Root Stability
Cost:
2+m or 4m; Mins: Essence 1; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: None
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: None
No matter what force is brought against them, the mountains stand immobile. Setting her feet wide, Mountain Root's wielder is nearly as unmovable. She may activate this charm when she would be knocked prone and/or forced from her position. For two motes, she keeps her feet and reduces the knockback she would suffer by one range band, and she may negate additional range bands of knockback for 1 mote each.
This charm can also be used to resist a grapple; the wielder becoming too stable to easily manhandle. For four motes, the difficulty of an attacker's grapple gambit is increased by two, increasing the cost of the gambit accordingly.

Guardian Stelae Eruption
Cost:
4m; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Simple
Keywords: None
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisite Charms: Mountain Root Stability
The wielder pounds Mountain Spire against the ground, and intricately-carved stone pillars burst from the ground to shelter her. To use this charm, the wielder must be standing on solid earth or stone. The magic surrounding the pillars makes them seem broad and imposing to all but the wielder, but she can wend her way between them with ease. As long as the wielder remains stationary, she benefits from heavy cover against all attacks, but may make her own attacks without penalty. When the Exalt moves or ends her commitment to this charm, the pillars crumble to dust.

Crushing Vastness Blow
Cost:
- (+5m); Mins: Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Dual
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Thousand-Stone Smash, Guardian Stelae Eruption
In the hands of an experienced wielder, Mountain Spire can grow to truly prodigious size as it swings. This charm permanently enhances Thousand-Stone Smash. When using that charm to make Mountain Spire a Heavy weapon, the wielder may pay an additional five motes to grow Mountain Spire to a size where wielding it seems manifestly impossible - yet wield it she does. The enhanced attack can then be made against any foe within Short range, and can strike foes with Legendary Size as if they lacked that merit. Additionally, Withering attacks increase their damage by three.

Towering Mountain Stance
Cost:
10m, 10i, 3a, 1wp; Mins: Essence 4; Type: Simple
Keywords: None
Duration: One Scene
Prerequisite Charms: Crushing Vastness Blow
In extremis, Mountain Spire's wielder can pour the solidity of stone into her anima, conjuring an enormous body of impenetrable stone some thirty to forty feet tall. To use this charm, she must first be standing among the pillars of Guardian Stelae Eruption, and she must either have thirty initiative or be facing an opponent of Legendary Size. When she does so, the pillars shatter, their rubble flying towards the wielder and surrounding her in a rocky shell. The shell then rapidly expands into a towering humanoid figure, seemingly the Exalt transformed. (In actuality, her real body is held in the statue's torso.) Mountain Spire, similarly enlarged, rests in the simulacrum's hand. In most cases, the stone body's appearance is based on the wielder's anima, but players should feel free to be creative.
In this state, the Exalt gains the following benefits:
  • She gains the Legendary Size merit:
    • She cannot be grappled by smaller enemies, and when grappling smaller foes she rolls unopposed on her control roll unless they use magic that allows them to clinch larger enemies, like Dragon Coil Technique.
    • She takes no onslaught penalties from attacks by smaller opponents, unless magically inflicted
    • Withering attacks made by smaller enemies cannot drop him below 1 Initiative unless they have a post-soak damage of 10 dice (although attackers can still gain the full amount of Initiative damage dealt).
    • Decisive attacks made by smaller enemies cannot deal more than (3 + attacker's Strength) levels of damage, not counting any levels of damage added by Charms or other magic.
  • She gains (5+Essence) -0 health levels, representing the durability of her stone body. These health levels are damaged first, and vanish when damaged, taking the damage with them. Furthermore, poisoned weapons that deal damage only to these health levels cannot poison her. Depleting these health levels leaves the stone body visibly shattered but does not affect its ability to fight.
  • She is immune to effects that would cripple or destroy parts of her body, other than voluntarily-accepted crippling injuries. Such attacks damage her stone simulacrum instead, which is unbothered.
  • Attacks she makes with Mountain Spire are enhanced by Thousand-Stone Smash and Crushing Vastness Blow at no cost. This is not optional; the wielder may not use Mountain Spire as a medium weapon.
  • Her Strength is doubled for the purposes of feats of strength only.
 
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So, in my opinion, there are some major problems with the combat engine and design in Ex3. I'll list my propositions first:
  • The differing impact of Attributes, and to a lesser extent abilities. The issue here is the design space for new characters that is limited by the mechanics of what decisions are good and bad. There is little room for a competent and strong warrior that does not take Dexterity as his highest priority. Further, comparatively to Dexterity, Stamina and Strength do very little out of combat. Likewise, abilities like Resistance and many times Athletics doesn't directly contribute to mundane applications of their field, e.g. resistance doesn't impact soak at all.
  • Character generation itself, the major one being how attributes are distributed and the other being the number of charms that is given considering the actual impact of the charms, and the highly variable nature of this. Again the issue is design space, somewhat specialized generalist characters are simply unable to keep up with characters that go all in, and important Roleplaying devices, such as attributes, have a heavy mechanical penalty to pick up in any type of organic way, e.g. 8 dots in physical abilities almost always results in two 5 dot abilities and one 1 dot, something that shouldn't be the normal case, as it heavily limits what characters can be played.
  • The different math going into Decisive and Withering attacks. Defense is an undervalued stat for it's impact, because it's the only weapon modifier to directly impact Decisive to hit rolls. It's not a major problem, but it does lead into the next one.
  • Weapons aren't balanced. Accuracy logically must be valued higher than damage, due to it's attack value and 1/2 damage value, but the Raw treats them about the same. This results in samey characters picking similar options with little to no mechanical variation for the clear advantage it represents. Similarly, tags are highly variable in the good to very mediocre effects.
  • Martial Arts are a cool and gimmicky way to achieve effects; however, the heavy surcharge of a 4 dot merit and an entirely new ability along with one dot in Brawl means that in many cases the cool but mostly overvalued martial art styles won't be picked up by anyone making a combat character. I don't know if I'd label this a problem or a feature, it's the thing I'm most unsure about.
  • This is a highly variable opinion, but sorcery is way too useful for way too little investment. One charm purchase and 3 ability dots invested in a nonfavored ability should not give you something stronger than a third in chain ability 5 charm with a minimum amount of risk, e.g. Invulnerable Skin of Bronze. (Yes, I'm aware there are far greater issues, I just want to lay out all the pertinent ones I can recognize.)
So, in conclusion, these issues lead to a mechanical disparity between the effectiveness of combat focused character archetypes, in an extremely polarizing way. It isn't an internal problem either, it's something caused by mechanical fuck-ups, not the fluff (With the possible exception of Sorcery and Martial Arts). It doesn't make for a good game, or for good interplay. To make an analogy, high Dexterity Builds are the Patron Warriors of the game, they require high decision making and character building skill but result in only extremely similar archetypes being viable and are thus bad for the health of the game.

Considering how Charms interact with some of the base issues such as the utilization of abilities, attributes, and the decisive attack formula, any house rule that attempts to address this would necessarily be in-depth, so I'd like to see if anyone would be willing to provide feedback on my observations before investing the time.
 
A bunch of random, vague thoughts for house rules that may or may not be useful:
- combine Strength and Stamina
- remove Manipulation, then rename Appearance to Manipulation
- remove Perception, use Intelligence or Wits instead
- use Dexterity for withering attacks and Strength for decisive attacks
- use Athletics opposed rolls for resolving simultaneous movement on the same turn
- use Stamina for survival and navigation rolls
- add lots more codified actions that call for different roll combinations (filch heavily from 2e)
- use 2e Thaumaturgy to provide "everyday magic" actions for different abilities, no Occult needed for non-Occult things like forging weapons or officiating weddings
- use Strength as an option for some exotic beast taming rolls
- make 2 the baseline for Attributes, with 1 as a Flaw that doesn't give you more Attribute dots
- replace the MA merit with one merit per style that gives a benefit that mortals can also use
- merge Martial Arts ability with Brawl, no multiple Abilities
- make sorcery require a set of merits with prerequisites that represent the tests needed to initiate into sorcery, incorporating shaping rituals and other sorcery merits along with other weird stuff
 
A bunch of random, vague thoughts for house rules that may or may not be useful:
- combine Strength and Stamina
- remove Manipulation, then rename Appearance to Manipulation
- remove Perception, use Intelligence or Wits instead
- use Dexterity for withering attacks and Strength for decisive attacks
- use Athletics opposed rolls for resolving simultaneous movement on the same turn
- use Stamina for survival and navigation rolls
- add lots more codified actions that call for different roll combinations (filch heavily from 2e)
- use 2e Thaumaturgy to provide "everyday magic" actions for different abilities, no Occult needed for non-Occult things like forging weapons or officiating weddings
- use Strength as an option for some exotic beast taming rolls
- make 2 the baseline for Attributes, with 1 as a Flaw that doesn't give you more Attribute dots
- replace the MA merit with one merit per style that gives a benefit that mortals can also use
- merge Martial Arts ability with Brawl, no multiple Abilities
- make sorcery require a set of merits with prerequisites that represent the tests needed to initiate into sorcery, incorporating shaping rituals and other sorcery merits along with other weird stuff
  • Not sure combining is the best response. I'd prefer to try to support different and more impactful ways to use them.
  • If I was to go this route I would fold Appearance into Charisma and yoink from nWoD and make the third Attribute Composure, making Wits less important and making a useful non-social character social Attribute.
  • Mental attributes are the most flexible to be honest, I'd rather give Perception some extra utility by throwing in some stuff like a read intentions action that uses Perception
  • The calculus for withering and decisive needs to be redone, but I would suggest using weapon tags, that somehow need to be integrated into unarmed combat.
  • I would like to use Athletics and Resistance in a static value like defense, Rush actions already supply some of what your talking about. I think Armor tags would be useful to flesh this out.
  • That's seems to be a good idea.
  • I gave up on 2e a while ago.
  • Some way to stack mundane dice might be a decent idea.
  • Sounds like a decent idea.
  • Really, I think if you reduce BP and the starting dots to XP, people are already incentivized to fix this themselves. One of the biggest flaws with that is providing a way for smaller dot attributes to be useful.
  • It's a time intensive idea, but I think you could convert the Form charms to some type of Merit.
  • As someone who does Karate, I like this idea. Except I dislike it being a Brawl only thing. Maybe attach the aforementioned merits to specific attributes and make them key off both?
  • I certainly think making sorcery more of an investment/detriment is necessary.
 
  • The different math going into Decisive and Withering attacks. Defense is an undervalued stat for it's impact, because it's the only weapon modifier to directly impact Decisive to hit rolls. It's not a major problem, but it does lead into the next one.
  • Weapons aren't balanced. Accuracy logically must be valued higher than damage, due to it's attack value and 1/2 damage value, but the Raw treats them about the same. This results in samey characters picking similar options with little to no mechanical variation for the clear advantage it represents. Similarly, tags are highly variable in the good to very mediocre effects.
So, in conclusion, these issues lead to a mechanical disparity between the effectiveness of combat focused character archetypes, in an extremely polarizing way. It isn't an internal problem either, it's something caused by mechanical fuck-ups, not the fluff (With the possible exception of Sorcery and Martial Arts). It doesn't make for a good game, or for good interplay. To make an analogy, high Dexterity Builds are the Patron Warriors of the game, they require high decision making and character building skill but result in only extremely similar archetypes being viable and are thus bad for the health of the game.

Considering how Charms interact with some of the base issues such as the utilization of abilities, attributes, and the decisive attack formula, any house rule that attempts to address this would necessarily be in-depth, so I'd like to see if anyone would be willing to provide feedback on my observations before investing the time.
Could you please elaborate on the more esoteric bits (ones left in the quote) for the non-backers? E.g. I have a vague understanding of Withering vs. Decisive mech differences, none of tags, nor of the way dexterity of the character requires decision-making and character-building skills from the player.
 
As someone who does exercise, Strength and Stamina are very different things- if you're going to combine Attributes, take a page from Aleph and ES' book and combine Dexterity and Strength.
As someone who did amateur-level sports back in the day, and went to a university who actually taught exercise-oriented science, I'll go further than that:
Realistically, there are not three, but five things that can be (reluctantly) called physical attributes: Strength, Quickness, Coordination (Dexterity), Flexibility, and Endurance (Stamina). Furthermore, the 'sub-attributes' of these 'attributes' can differ wildly. Perhaps the most glaring example would be the difference between Relative Strength (how good are you at forcefully moving your own body, e.g. during a pullup, or a jump with no run-up) vs. (Long-term exercise) Absolute Strength (how much you can slowly lift/carry). There are also complicated ways in which attributes interact, e.g. jumping tends to focus on some combination of (Explosive) Relative Strength and (Short-Burst) Active Quickness, with more of the former for standing jumps and more of the latter for running jumps, plus with more emphasis on Full-Body Coordination for the triple jump or a pole vault. Then there are complicated interactions such as high Flexibility being outright bad for maximum-load powerlifting.
The Exalted mechanics for using Strength+Athletics for all jumps produces silly results, such as elephans (and Yeddim, IIRC) and the Juggernaught being awesome jumpers. Even though given their size their Relative Strength is probably very low.

But this is a game, and we're forced to give up realism for playability.
Str and Sta are inferior to Dex in Storyteller and its derived systems. So are they in GURPS, by the way, where the cost of Strength and Health are each half of the cost of Dexterity. I don't suppose we can have variable-cost Attributes in Storyteller. Or can we? If we can, neat. If we can't, then merging Str+Sta is kinda-sorta okay, as long as one allows raising one or the other through a cheaper Merit or something.
 
Could you please elaborate on the more esoteric bits (ones left in the quote) for the non-backers? E.g. I have a vague understanding of Withering vs. Decisive mech differences, none of tags, nor of the way dexterity of the character requires decision-making and character-building skills from the player.
Charms have some pretty complex interactions, and the math can be pretty annoying, e.g. the math for the probability of Rising Sun Slash being procced. And you run into some resource management, with spending both initiative and motes. But it all resolves around enhancing the base (Dex+Ability) dicepool, so your only option if you don't want to have that build is to be extremely passive.

As is, tags give anywhere from 1 overwhelming, nonsoakable damage, to the ability to spend 1 initiative and 1 defense for 3 raw withering damage or 2 less hardness, not all that useful IMO. Withering attacks are about 20% more likely to hit, not accounting for complex mechanics like charms, than decisive attacks.

As for decision making and character building, I was just referring to the amount of options and game plans that a Dexterity build character has when it comes to combat. You can count on clash attacks, on counterattacks, on scene long defensive buffs, or ridiculous damage combos to win. Comparatively the absolute lack of options other builds have reduces the decision making, because you just have to run with whatever you managed to cobble together.
 
Combining Strength + Stamina into an overall Body stat doesn't make any less sense than merging 'how fast someone runs' and 'how steady someone's hand is' into Dexterity.

Indeed. And i personally prefer it that way. in ES rewrite, physique is much, much more useful than resistance.

Dexterity is just so good that you can conbine two different stats and Dex is still better.
 
Combining Strength + Stamina into an overall Body stat doesn't make any less sense than merging 'how fast someone runs' and 'how steady someone's hand is' into Dexterity.

No, but having Dexterity as something separate from Strength does make considerably less sense. As in, the concept of someone who is Str 1, Dex 5 as Exalted mechanises those skills is not something that can happen. For goodness sake, sports fencing, the field where it would be most possible for someone to be fast-but-weak by game-logic... still demands "strength". Because strength is how you move fast.

The archetype of the "fast but weak" character is aphysical. The achetype of the strong-but-clumsy one is a sign of low skill, not low attribute - if someone obviously winds up attacks and is nice and dodgeable, then they haven't been taught properly.

Indeed. And i personaly prefer it that way. in ES rewrite, physique is much, much more useful than resistance.

Endurance will be more useful once a) we finish gutting the combat system down to a turn-based one roll engine, and b) someone other than Keris uses it, who bypasses a lot of the endurance-based mechanics by being constantly well-rested thanks to Running to Forever, which means she's resting when she's dashing.

Trust me, once Endurance is properly implemented, a character who goes for Physique 5, Endurance 1 will find themselves picking up significant penalties in any extended activity. So they'll... uh, have no endurance and will have to keep on taking guard actions for their turn to remove the penalties their low Endurance imposes by taking a breather between physically demanding activities.
 
Man half of that shit is blatantly magical!

But cool, can always consider having 'drug dealer' as a side job!
I'd probably rule you can cook most of the potions just fine. They really should have been high difficulty Craft Water anyways in 2e, as opposed to locked behind Occult. Lord knows Exalted has enough magic planets and animals to make some weird shit.

Things like Heavenly Transmutation Processes should stay in Thaumaturgy though.
 
No, but having Dexterity as something separate from Strength does make considerably less sense. As in, the concept of someone who is Str 1, Dex 5 as Exalted mechanises those skills is not something that can happen. For goodness sake, sports fencing, the field where it would be most possible for someone to be fast-but-weak by game-logic... still demands "strength". Because strength is how you move fast.

The archetype of the "fast but weak" character is aphysical. The achetype of the strong-but-clumsy one is a sign of low skill, not low attribute - if someone obviously winds up attacks and is nice and dodgeable, then they haven't been taught properly.

This is a perfectly good point, and probably something worth considering when designing a system for general use. But I do feel like it's worth noting that many people simply don't care about this, and so when designing a system for personal use this is in many cases a non-concern in a way that other concerns often aren't non-concerns for personal-use systems.
 
This is a perfectly good point, and probably something worth considering when designing a system for general use. But I do feel like it's worth noting that many people simply don't care about this, and so when designing a system for personal use this is in many cases a non-concern in a way that other concerns often aren't non-concerns for personal-use systems.

Yes, but the main reason people don't care about it is that Strength and Dexterity being different is a legacy of D&D, and people have got so used to it being a thing that people don't actually ask themselves why the Attributes are divided like that. It's just legacy code from early D&D.
 
The archetype of the "fast but weak" character is aphysical. The achetype of the strong-but-clumsy one is a sign of low skill, not low attribute - if someone obviously winds up attacks and is nice and dodgeable, then they haven't been taught properly.
Hiding, disguising, or moving too quick for tells is a sign of skill, but there is a non skill based component of landing a hit, generally a mix of muscle reaction speed and perception. I've seen black belts differ widely in their ability to land a hit on another, and I would put them on a similar level of skill. At the end of the day, what is being represented isn't "fast", but a mixture of coordination and reflexes. Some people have a greater grasp of the intuitive concept of space, while others struggle with that while still maintaining an advantage through speed.

TL;DR: It's too reductive to argue that accuracy is solely represented by the speed of a strike.
 
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No, but having Dexterity as something separate from Strength does make considerably less sense. As in, the concept of someone who is Str 1, Dex 5 as Exalted mechanises those skills is not something that can happen. For goodness sake, sports fencing, the field where it would be most possible for someone to be fast-but-weak by game-logic... still demands "strength". Because strength is how you move fast.

The archetype of the "fast but weak" character is aphysical. The achetype of the strong-but-clumsy one is a sign of low skill, not low attribute - if someone obviously winds up attacks and is nice and dodgeable, then they haven't been taught properly.

This is true, but Talent is a thing that exists. There are people that, regardless of having the exact same level of physical conditioning will simply always be better than someone else with the same level of training.

You can represent this by setting some people Skill level higher than the same person, despite the same level of training. Or you can give them the same level of Skill but give the more talented person an inherent bonus, which is functionally no different then an Attribute.
 
No, but having Dexterity as something separate from Strength does make considerably less sense. As in, the concept of someone who is Str 1, Dex 5 as Exalted mechanises those skills is not something that can happen. For goodness sake, sports fencing, the field where it would be most possible for someone to be fast-but-weak by game-logic... still demands "strength". Because strength is how you move fast.

The archetype of the "fast but weak" character is aphysical. The achetype of the strong-but-clumsy one is a sign of low skill, not low attribute - if someone obviously winds up attacks and is nice and dodgeable, then they haven't been taught properly.
Sorry, but this contains only a bit of truth.
There are examples of realistic characters who are dextrous but weak, to varying extent. Consider the following types of sports, all of which value dexterity, but which are ordered by descending focus on strength:
Wrestling, decathlon, artistic and acrobatic gymnastics, rhythmic gymnastics.
The first has Dex and Str develop nearly hand in hand, though mostly because of the existence of weight classes.
The second lacks weight classes, but cares about Dex more than Str because many of its events are prioritising coordination over strength; they still require having a reasonable Relative Strength, though!
The third pair gets even more focused on Dex, but you can't do it without Str 2 meaningfully; some go for Str 3, but that's about it - anything more will require too much muscle mass, and too much muscle mass is too hard to handle dextrously with the human neural system.
Finally, the last can go for Str 1, because it's all about Dex, and has very few actual tests of strength - it kinda requires enough Relative Strength to do stuff like handstands, but that's about it; it totally ditches Absolute Strength.

You have an important point about there being a difference between Dex and skill. However, I have personally seen enough evidence of Dex being a thing (both my parents were into sports). I've seen the example of Str 1, Sta 2, Dex 3-4 (mostly Dex 3 now that she's getting old), and I do mean Dex 3, not high skill+Dex. I say Dex and not skill because I saw her try out things she never trained to do, and each and every time she looks more coordinated than most people, and occasionally even does Dex-based stuff that other people studied for a couple of years and she didn't study at all better than those experienced people. Conversely, my father was into Track & Field, but had a notoriously low Dex, likely 1 in system terms, despite reasonable Str and Sta, and it was, once again, seen through the actions in which he wasn't well-trained (training did help him compensate his low Dex in sports). IOW, these couple of anecdotes confirm the theoretical, scientific studies of the topic.

I get that you have certain experiences, and those experiences look reasonable. But some of the conclusions seem hasty and missing the big picture and variety.
 
Yes, but the main reason people don't care about it is that Strength and Dexterity being different is a legacy of D&D, and people have got so used to it being a thing that people don't actually ask themselves why the Attributes are divided like that. It's just legacy code from early D&D.
Uh, not really. D&D divides attributes into Wis/Int/Cha too, but people generally don't, IME.
It's more that the Str/Dex/Sta split is vaguely reminiscent of the scientific Strength/Coordination/Quickness/Flexibility/Endurance split, but people conflate Coordination, Quickness and Flexibility for some reason.
 
No, but having Dexterity as something separate from Strength does make considerably less sense. As in, the concept of someone who is Str 1, Dex 5 as Exalted mechanises those skills is not something that can happen. For goodness sake, sports fencing, the field where it would be most possible for someone to be fast-but-weak by game-logic... still demands "strength". Because strength is how you move fast.

The archetype of the "fast but weak" character is aphysical. The achetype of the strong-but-clumsy one is a sign of low skill, not low attribute - if someone obviously winds up attacks and is nice and dodgeable, then they haven't been taught properly.

That's simply because Dexterity also encompasses movement speed, which it shouldn't. The CP2020 threefold split for physicals was Body, which was raw lifting strength and physical fitness, Reflexes, which was your coordination and reaction speed, and Movement Allowance, which was just your ability to move-both running and jumping. MA was primarily useful as its own stat because getting into cover and moving fast in CP2020 gave their own significant advantages (move-fast meant you were less vulnerable to bullets, and also let you get into cover, flank more easily, and dodge things like grenades which killed people really well). Which means that in a game like Exalted, where tactical cover taking and grenade usage aren't a critical part of the combat engine, you can keep the split as Body and Coordination-someone with a high Body is tough and fast and strong, someone with a high Coordination has fast reaction times and is less likely to fuck up.

And reaction time is hugely important and is more of an attribute than an ability because of how broadly applicable it is. Someone with good reaction time is good at a lot of sports, but also better at winning gunfights, at winning swordfights, at winning punch-ups... So that makes the fast but weak character no longer aphysical-the "fast but weak character" is the Pro Starcraft Player-he has great APM and can react very quickly but doesn't have the overall fitness to do much.

In the physique-stamina pair, this leads to very interesting and also aphysical behavior-a heavyweight fighter, due to having higher physique and stamina, is actually more capable of landing blows than a smaller fighter with equivalent training. I am pretty sure if you went through sports science, this would also make very little sense.
 
That's simply because Dexterity also encompasses movement speed, which it shouldn't. The CP2020 threefold split for physicals was Body, which was raw lifting strength and physical fitness, Reflexes, which was your coordination and reaction speed, and Movement Allowance, which was just your ability to move-both running and jumping. MA was primarily useful as its own stat because getting into cover and moving fast in CP2020 gave their own significant advantages (move-fast meant you were less vulnerable to bullets, and also let you get into cover, flank more easily, and dodge things like grenades which killed people really well). Which means that in a game like Exalted, where tactical cover taking and grenade usage aren't a critical part of the combat engine, you can keep the split as Body and Coordination-someone with a high Body is tough and fast and strong, someone with a high Coordination has fast reaction times and is less likely to fuck up.

And reaction time is hugely important and is more of an attribute than an ability because of how broadly applicable it is. Someone with good reaction time is good at a lot of sports, but also better at winning gunfights, at winning swordfights, at winning punch-ups... So that makes the fast but weak character no longer aphysical-the "fast but weak character" is the Pro Starcraft Player-he has great APM and can react very quickly but doesn't have the overall fitness to do much.

In the physique-stamina pair, this leads to very interesting and also aphysical behavior-a heavyweight fighter, due to having higher physique and stamina, is actually more capable of landing blows than a smaller fighter with equivalent training. I am pretty sure if you went through sports science, this would also make very little sense.
Agreed in general, though I would like to note that in a game like Exalted, the purpose of a separate Quickness attribute is still of use, as it could be applied to handle the following things:
Join Battle, Dodge DV and possibly Parry DV, action Speed, attack Rate, Move and Dash distance, calculations for number of Iron Whirlwind actions, maximum number of non-magical Flurry actions etc.
 
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