Are you referring to the first two chapters, or anything outside that? Because most of the people who play Infernals will agree, there are no first two chapters. The book was mysteriously published with sixty or so pages missing between the contents page and chargen.
 
I love Infernals, as anyone could probably guess, but the first two chapters of the book are literary excrement.

Seriously, if anyone reads that book for the first time, skip the first two chapters and start at storytelling chapter. s

It is literally one of the best examples of someone not reading up on the setting they are writing for.
 
Infernals was so vile that I almost quit a game I was playing when I read it. It was so vile that I don't see any point in dwelling on it in any detail, other than to discard it.

The first two chapters of Infernals are awful, yes.

Which is a shame, because even though I'm not the biggest fan of that splat (GLORIOUS SOLAR FANBOY) the rest of that splat is excellent.
 
To get some non-me perspectives, I'd like to ask people in this thread some questions. They are:

1. What would you say Exalted's essential features are?
2. What about Exalted would describe as most interesting and evocative?
3. What would you call Exalted's worst features?


You can be as specific or general as you like.

Well, added to what people have already said and bearing in mind I stayed up till 5 AM

To be honest I don't think there's actually that much wrong with exalted. Like

1:A The general back story that there are exalted who were empowered by the gods to defeat, in effect, the Titans, who are themselves far more interesting and alien beings.
B: Being a mix of all the non-tolkeenian fantasy stuff you can find. In the same way D&D is kind of Tolkeen (until it redefined and took over the genre) Exalted is everything else. It's not just fantasy anime and Wuxia, it's also Morcock, Black Company, and that West Fantasy that dares to have an aesthetic.

2: The fact that the basic type of exalt (IE Solars) aren't just a hero, they're an end boss. They're not just Sabre, they're Gilgamesh (as in fate stay knight as well as the legend). They're not simply average ninjas and not everyone can be one.

3: The fact that it often feels like 99.99% of the population of creation don't really matter. The fact WW is cripplingly bad at making mechanics when they get too specific. The obsession with blood and titties. The fact that creation often ends up feeling kind of small despite how big it is (the latter is being remedied in 3rd at least.)

A big problem I thought of after last night is also the lack of a generic hero type of exalted. Dragon Blooded are sort of it but their elemental flavouring I think rather cuts into it.

If I was rewriting exalted I'd almost certainly give mortals a lot more access to mystical martial arts. Just because you can only meet so many dragon blooded.
 
A big problem I thought of after last night is also the lack of a generic hero type of exalted. Dragon Blooded are sort of it but their elemental flavouring I think rather cuts into it..

Solars are the generic hero exalted... its just that they happen to the the older style Greek Heroes rather the more commonly accepted Modern Day version IF a Solar is your endboss then either your playing in a non Solar game, or your dealing with a potential 'hidden Elder', or someone like the Essence 6 forbidden god worshipper..
 
Solars are the generic hero exalted... its just that they happen to the the older style Greek Heroes rather the more commonly accepted Modern Day version IF a Solar is your endboss then either your playing in a non Solar game, or your dealing with a potential 'hidden Elder', or someone like the Essence 6 forbidden god worshipper..

I dunno if I really like them being that TBH.

I feel there's a certain tension between those two aspects I can't really explain on this amount of sleep.
 
Infernals was so vile that I almost quit a game I was playing when I read it. It was so vile that I don't see any point in dwelling on it in any detail, other than to discard it.

That's usually how people react to Infernals 1&2 and why they are universally discarded and ignored in favor of the rest of the book, which is considerably better(aside from the Artifacts, but that's bad mechanics more than anything).

As for your previous questions...

1. What would you say Exalted's essential features are?

That when you start, you are a power to be acknowledged. You aren't a zero to hero, you already did that and are now Exalted. Your every step may not shake the foundations of Creation, but you aren't far off from it.

There isn't Good and Evil as cosmic forces or with the setting clearly divided into "These are the bad guys over here, and the good guys over here." People are fundamentally people, even when they're ancient world shaking demigods who established the current status quo long ago and their actions are reasonable and understandable.

The idea that actions cannot be undone. You cannot make it so something that happened never happened. You can try to heal or repair something wounded or damaged. You can try to make something right, but you cannot undo the fact that something happened.

2. What about Exalted would describe as most interesting and evocative?


Malfeas and the demonic hierarchy. They are not, fundamentally speaking, evil beings. They are alien, certainly, and a good number of them are hostile but that has more to do with them having been kicked off of their comfy thrones in the Age of Glory and imprisoned ever since than anything.

The blend of mythological influences, particularly Eastern and Bronze Age rather than Tolkien and Arthurian.

The integration of fluff and crunch.

The inherent and contrasting cynicism and optimism of the basic setting. You are a chosen champion of the gods, yes. But you were chosen for a war that your predecessors ended eons ago. Your god has long since gone into retirement. You are not inherently righteous for your status or power, which you have only because you can't stuff everything back into Pandora's Box.

All that said, what does that change? So what if you are a weapon created for a war long since ended? Does that mean you cannot help others? Does that mean you cannot bring peace and order to this torn apart world?

There is no requirement that you be good or wise, nor do you have anything that makes it easy for you to be those things. But does that mean that you can't?

How's the quote go? "Any man can stand up to adversity, but if you truly wish to test a man's character give him power."

There's nothing saying you will succeed. But nothing says you fail either.

3. What would you call Exalted's worst features?


The Great Curse.

You don't need some kind of magical super secret curse for things to have gone the way they did. You don't need a super secret curse for bright ideals or high dreams to blacken and stain. You don't need it for people of power to grow distant and apathetic. And you certainly don't need it for people to see problems in the world and turn against one another because they cannot agree on the right course of action.

Setting details that don't make sense, like trade wars between countries thousands of miles apart.

The Underworld, for somehow fucking up and making a realm created from the nightmares of slain Titans and tempered by the prayer and memories of all who have died since, boring.

How the vast the gulf in power is between the Exalts and vast majority of the rest of the setting. Sure, you're playing the top 1% and being significantly above everyone else is sorta part of the territory. But being completely unchallenged?

I don't want a mortal with a knife to be a threat. Even a lot of mortals with knives shouldn't be a terribly great threat. But I'd like for a human who has trained for decades, awakened his Essence, learned esoteric and mystical arts, and so for to rate a bit higher than "Elite Mook."

I'd also prefer for it be because the power of humans was brought up rather than the power of the Exalted was brought down, but that's a matter of personal taste.
 
1. What would you say Exalted's essential features are?
2. What about Exalted would describe as most interesting and evocative?
3. What would you call Exalted's worst features?

1&2:

Exalted is an epic tragedy writ large. The very first words in the very first book (that wasn't fiction) basically said "The world is doomed, but until then awesome happened." Exalted is a setting about the dynamics of power and change. It is a allegory for the human condition. It is about the futility of violence and the glory of violence and the cycle of violence.

Exalted is a setting where 99% of everybody is a dirty peasant living a subsistence lifestyle trying to eek out a living from hard soil. They live in a world where a person with a sword can kill them dead very quickly, where even the smallest wounds will fester and bleed out and kill them without immediate medical care (and where most of them do not have that medical care). It is a world where the plagues that wipe out entire villages are cholera and malaria and black death. It is a world where the rich are rich on the backs of slaves and where everyone in power is an asshole who inflicts suffering and harm on hundreds, maybe even millions of others to support their lifestyle of decadence.

One of the developers (maybe even Grabowski) once described a typical battle in Exalted as the storming the beach of Normandy scene from Saving Private Ryan but with the soldiers occasionally looking up from the muck and offal to see glowing demigods flying back and forth across the battlefield engaged in wuxia kung fu duels and causing masses of soldiers to explode into fine red mist wherever they touched down.

Exalted is a game which hands your player this world and then allows you to rise above it. It makes you immune to infection and bleeding and disease. It makes you capable of facing down an army single-handedly. It allows your words to halt an army in its tracks and turn them to your cause within minutes.

And then the game turns to you and says, "So what now, genius?"

Because you have power, but that power isn't actually good for solving the worlds problems. You can slaughter armies. Congratulations, you just butchered thousands of people for... what? A cause? A fit of pique? Because they opposed you? You can use social fu to turn people into your followers... though the way social Charms work what you are actually doing is engaging in mass brainwashing and mind control, turning people into your slaves. You can summon demons and bind them to service and it is 100% reliable and useful and... it makes you a slaver who is basically turning prisoners of war into your personal suicidal fanatics. Exalted is a setting where the moral choice is always always the harder choice and where every problem can be very easily punched in the face and butchered with glorious violence that will not solve a thing, ever.

Exalted is a setting that is very moral and the developers accomplish this by making certain that there is no morality in the setting. There is no "detect evil", but there is "detect people the guy in charge dislikes at the moment". No absolute good. No absolute evil. Even the biggest badguys in the setting often have legitimate grievances and issues such as being trapped in eternal torment for all eternity and the greatest good guys may have overthrown the bad guys for the sake of justice... but they also did it because that left them in charge and gave them access to the equivalent of divine drug induced euphoria.

Exalted has a very mythic setting that is very deliberately not Earth. It has the coolest Hell. It has a cool Underworld. It has a cool Formless Chaos Beyond Space. It has a cool Heaven and a corrupt divine bureaucracy to run it. It has a nation of ubermensch who are both Creation's greatest slavers AND the only thing that prevented the world from ending for thousands of years.

Exalted is complex and offers no simple solutions. It forces you to confront questions of morality and the politics of power...

...or you can ignore all that and play kung fu Jesus teams up with Nikola Tesla, Lu Bu, Gilgamesh and Batman to fight Aku and Cthulu and punch them in the face! Which is just as fun.

3: The mechanics do not live up to its ambitions. They are complex where they need to be simple and simple where they need to be complex.
 
Nope. Exaltations can carry memories between hosts if they're not properly cleaned, but reincarnation definitely wipes the slate clean.
Actualy, Lytek sometimes leaves some memories and can even restore specific memories to a living Exalt from his past life if you come to him and convince him to do it (like giving you your past incarnation's memories of their training in order to shorten the time it takes for you to go between Essence levels).
 
Actualy, Lytek sometimes leaves some memories and can even restore specific memories to a living Exalt from his past life if you come to him and convince him to do it (like giving you your past incarnation's memories of their training in order to shorten the time it takes for you to go between Essence levels).

Indeed. These memories are basically the justification for why PCs can learn any Charm in the books without a teacher or years of trial and error as well.
 
Actualy, Lytek sometimes leaves some memories and can even restore specific memories to a living Exalt from his past life if you come to him and convince him to do it (like giving you your past incarnation's memories of their training in order to shorten the time it takes for you to go between Essence levels).
*nervous tic*

That is in line with what I said (Lytek; improper cleaning), but Lytek cannot give an Exalt memories of a past incarnation. He holds on to the memories of Exalts who are hosts of the Shard, and can perhaps let the Exalt that is the shard's new host experience them. Any given Exalt's actual past life is forever lost to Lethe.
 
*nervous tic*

That is in line with what I said (Lytek; improper cleaning), but Lytek cannot give an Exalt memories of a past incarnation. He holds on to the memories of Exalts who are hosts of the Shard, and can perhaps let the Exalt that is the shard's new host experience them. Any given Exalt's actual past life is forever lost to Lethe.
You're using "host" as they used "incarnation".
 
*nervous tic*

That is in line with what I said (Lytek; improper cleaning), but Lytek cannot give an Exalt memories of a past incarnation. He holds on to the memories of Exalts who are hosts of the Shard, and can perhaps let the Exalt that is the shard's new host experience them. Any given Exalt's actual past life is forever lost to Lethe.
COCD Yu Shan said:
...he regulates what memories carry from incarnation to incarnation. He prunes the dross of previous existences from the Exaltations, choosing which memories cling to the shard of power.

...

He has stores of memories from previous Exaltations within the vaults of his office and can show them to one of the Exalted, or even graft it to their spirit without their knowledge, triggering flashbacks to previous incarnations.
He can show an Exalt the quickest way to power, reducing the time necessary to increase a being's Essence (This technique was used during the war against the Primordials to get Exaltations belonging to casualties back into the fighting as swiftly as possible, and Lytek's technique consists mainly of granting memories of those training sessions).

Says here that he can, unless I am horribly misreading it.

EDIT:
Ninja'd.

I am talking specificaly about showing a current holder/host of an Exaltation memories of the previous owner, not that the previous person and the current owner are the same soul.

Sorry for the confusion.
 
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For more exotic things, perhaps. The vast majority of Solar charms really need no justification.

One of the corebooks, or possibly both, mention that the Charms in the book are the result of thousands of years of experimentation and training and development by all the previous generations of Exalted and are as good as they are ever going to get (its in the coming up with new Charms section and is the reason why you can't design a Charm better than Hungry Tiger Technique at being Hungry Tiger Technique). This implies they didn't start that way.
 
One of the corebooks, or possibly both, mention that the Charms in the book are the result of thousands of years of experimentation and training and development by all the previous generations of Exalted and are as good as they are ever going to get (its in the coming up with new Charms section and is the reason why you can't design a Charm better than Hungry Tiger Technique at being Hungry Tiger Technique). This implies they didn't start that way.
If the Exaltation doesn't have power use optimization tools built into it, Autochthon made a shitty product.
 
If the Exaltation doesn't have power use optimization tools built into it, Autochthon made a shitty product.

It does have a power use optimization tool. That tool is called "the human host". They even created a method to carry over this optimization from host to host, which is why Exaltations retain memories at all.

Think of it as an evolutionary algorithm.
 
Wouldn't this mean that the Abyssal and Infernal Exalted start out with a massive disadvantage as they would have to essentially design most of their charm set from scratch? This seems like a bad idea as it would give the Solar's another unnecessary advantage over their celestial exalted peers.
 
Wouldn't this mean that the Abyssal and Infernal Exalted start out with a massive disadvantage as they would have to essentially design most of their charm set from scratch? This seems like a bad idea as it would give the Solar's another unnecessary advantage over their celestial exalted peers.

The Deathlords have been developing Abyssals Charmtech for hundreds of years and the Yozi have been doing the same via akuma.
 
Wouldn't this mean that the Abyssal and Infernal Exalted start out with a massive disadvantage as they would have to essentially design most of their charm set from scratch? This seems like a bad idea as it would give the Solar's another unnecessary advantage over their celestial exalted peers.

The Abyssal Exalted are theoretically exploiting a function of the Solar Exaltation- they inverted much more easily than anyone expected to, implying... Things, about their design and Autochthon. Mind you this is really up to the ST to flesh out.

The Infernals, meanwhile, are literally emulating existent Yozi Charms- the Yozis already know them, and are likely investing the Coadjutators with the know-how to teach their Green Sun Princes.

In both cases, making new charms that no one has ever known before- everyone is in the same boat for that.

Edit: And/or what Aaron said- pick what you prefer!
 
Wouldn't this mean that the Abyssal and Infernal Exalted start out with a massive disadvantage as they would have to essentially design most of their charm set from scratch? This seems like a bad idea as it would give the Solar's another unnecessary advantage over their celestial exalted peers.
The Abyssal charm set is basically a Necrotic version of the Solar charmset, whilst the Infernal charmset is actually portions of the Yozi's charmset, and thus on similar tiers of power.
 
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