Well, theoretically one of her reincarnations or someone who holds here exaltation might, right?
Reincarnations via souls, no. If she survived until the Usurpation, the next carrier of her Exaltation might be able to drudge up the memories. I wouldn't bet on it, though. Otherwise, no on that front, too (because Lytek was able to do his fucking job before that).
 
Why not? Are souls not able to see the past lives of their exalted counterparts for some reason? I could have sworn there was some sort of merit or background for that.
Nope. Exaltations can carry memories between hosts if they're not properly cleaned, but reincarnation definitely wipes the slate clean.
 
Why not? Are souls not able to see the past lives of their exalted counterparts for some reason? I could have sworn there was some sort of merit or background for that.
The background is for an Exaltation that didn't have the memory build-up cleaned off properly. The Merit doesn't ever go beyond vague impressions for non-Exalts (also, it's from Scroll of Heroes), and reincarnation wipes the soul of the departed clean of all memories (and everything else that could possibly identify them as an individual) as they pass through Lethe.
 
So I was mean to a friend about Exalted this morning, so I thought I'd do something nice in return.

I've always wanted to like Exalted but found it difficult. Even the parts I like (Dragon-Bloods) are weighed down by poor writing and conceits, and the parts I dislike (the Infernals book) are so freakishly bad that I almost dropped a game because of it. But I've still wanted to like it, despite it messy, pointlessly huge, regularly poorly conceived setting, and frankly atrocious rules. But is that not always the case when discussing a White Wolf property ...?

Anyway, I'd like to try and boil Exalted down to its essence (do ho ho) and produce the thematic and aesthetic framework for an 'Exalted 0th Edition.' The idea would be to eliminate extraneous material and hone in on what could make it a great game with unerring, laser-like focus ... as defined by me.

To get some non-me perspectives, I'd like to ask people in this thread some questions. They are:

1. What would you say Exalted's essential features are?
2. What about Exalted would describe as most interesting and evocative?
3. What would you call Exalted's worst features?


You can be as specific or general as you like.
 
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2 out of 3 is a passing grade rite?

1. What would say Exalted's essential features are?

The active rejection of typical fantasy tropes. People with god-given authority are not good heroes even if the gods are ostensibly 'good' and when given that power will abuse it, demons are alien and horrible but fundamentally not inherently wicked, there is no objective morality creating a designated Evil People Race that you can genocide and not feel bad about, the world being fucked because so many people with good ideas get together and yell at each other...

The post-apocalyptic, Dying Earth elements where people live in the shadows of a much greater and more powerful but heavily flawed civilization which is unlikely to ever be restored and dig out weird and powerful trinkets which aren't actually what they think they are.

3. What would you call Exalted's worst features?

#1: Edginess for edginess's sake.

#2: A fundamental lack of bravery to do something unique and truly weird, hewing too close to its inspirations rather than actually being willing to explore ramifications. The First Age being, literally, Modernity, the Deathlords being evil for evil's sake, fucking triremes.
 
Actually, going by the books, the DB/Imaculates aren't that dogmatic. Mela is the first legitimate sorcerer, in much the same way that DB's are the only legitimate "humans with major magical powers". They don't deny that other sorcerers or humans with powers exist.
What I was implying was that the claim that Mela was the first sorcerer is precisely as accurate as the claim that Brigid was. That is to say, not at all.

I will go further and claim that she was almost certainly not the first human sorcerer. The Age of Glory was long, and its humans were no less clever or resourceful for their lack of power.

If she was the first Exalted sorcerer, it may have been only because she Exalted before any of the others. Or perhaps she was the first to master the Circle of Adamant. She may have been the greatest sorcerer, merely the greatest who lived to be remembered, or even the most prolific teacher of the arcane. The precise details of events over five millennia ago don't really matter. History has long faded to myth.
 
1. What would say Exalted's essential features are?

  1. Power scaling that is both tall (extreme competence) and wide (broad competence).
  2. The player being provided the tools to change the world while focusing on the consequences rather than the means.
  3. Encouraging people to play characters grounded in the world and part of it rather than murdohobos.
  4. Lists of cool stuff to buy.

2. What about Exalted would describe as most interesting and evocative?

  1. The setting's realizations of Heaven and Hell as vast multitiered Escher-esque cityscapes.
  2. Some of the minor terrestrial deities are the coolest.
  3. Most of what we see of the Realm and some of the Southern city-states is actually really cool and interesting. Nexus feels like a wonderful mishmash of Venice, Singapore and the Kowloon Walled City and is one of the most fun places to GM in.

3. What would you call Exalted's worst features?

  1. Fucking up giant robots.
  2. Lack of symmetrical power balance (Solars broadly excel at everything mechanically).
  3. Lack of asymmetrical power balance (Solars must broadly excel at everything with mechanics).
  4. Fucking up giant robots.
  5. Most of the 'magitech' artifacts were horrid because they had nested costs, were impractical to use or otherwise kinda sucked. Needing to own a chunk of magical real estate to have a sweet airship is not a design feature.
  6. The excessive grimdark and edginess in large parts of the setting, which undermines the mythic sword-and-sandal meets wuxia adventure feel the books seem to want to go with.
  7. Fucking up giant robots.
 
Mechanically, they were shitty armor that was hard to wear and didn't actually provide much besides damage.

Made it hard to hit anything, required you owned and protected a large tract of mystical land that had been groomed to produce a magic rock (which would provide no other benefit to you), required /extra/ artifacts to be worthwhile as anything other than a big dumb robot suit, had maintenance time, were expensive and difficult to maintain.

Unless you do lots of sieging or fighting giant monsters, a Warstrider is just a guarantee that you're going to lose very slowly in combat against some dude with a sword. At least in 2E.

Fuck knows what they're planning in the next one.
 
Made it hard to hit anything, required you owned and protected a large tract of mystical land that had been groomed to produce a magic rock (which would provide no other benefit to you), required /extra/ artifacts to be worthwhile as anything other than a big dumb robot suit, had maintenance time, were expensive and difficult to maintain.

Unless you do lots of sieging or fighting giant monsters, a Warstrider is just a guarantee that you're going to lose very slowly in combat against some dude with a sword. At least in 2E.

Fuck knows what they're planning in the next one.

This is dumb. What was White Wolf thinking?
 
Made it hard to hit anything, required you owned and protected a large tract of mystical land that had been groomed to produce a magic rock (which would provide no other benefit to you), required /extra/ artifacts to be worthwhile as anything other than a big dumb robot suit, had maintenance time, were expensive and difficult to maintain.

Unless you do lots of sieging or fighting giant monsters, a Warstrider is just a guarantee that you're going to lose very slowly in combat against some dude with a sword. At least in 2E.

Fuck knows what they're planning in the next one.
Honestly, having warstriders need an investment to use is hardly some cardinal sin. If warstriders were on the level that their fluff put them at, it would be entirely justifiable to need those resources to maintain them. The issue is that their mechanical representation gives little reason for them to exist beyond possibly the Scroll of Kings scale rules.

What I was implying was that the claim that Mela was the first sorcerer is precisely as accurate as the claim that Brigid was. That is to say, not at all.

I will go further and claim that she was almost certainly not the first human sorcerer. The Age of Glory was long, and its humans were no less clever or resourceful for their lack of power.

If she was the first Exalted sorcerer, it may have been only because she Exalted before any of the others. Or perhaps she was the first to master the Circle of Adamant. She may have been the greatest sorcerer, merely the greatest who lived to be remembered, or even the most prolific teacher of the arcane. The precise details of events over five millennia ago don't really matter. History has long faded to myth.
Well. I vehemently disagree with most of what you're posting, so I think I'll just drop this conversation now.
 
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Made it hard to hit anything, required you owned and protected a large tract of mystical land that had been groomed to produce a magic rock (which would provide no other benefit to you), required /extra/ artifacts to be worthwhile as anything other than a big dumb robot suit, had maintenance time, were expensive and difficult to maintain.

Unless you do lots of sieging or fighting giant monsters, a Warstrider is just a guarantee that you're going to lose very slowly in combat against some dude with a sword. At least in 2E.

Fuck knows what they're planning in the next one.
Don't forget how they totally cripple your mote pool while doing so. The shittiest takes 10m just for the armor.
 
1. What would say Exalted's essential features are?
a) A reasonably serious attempt to create a setting where people act reasonably people-like, as opposed to props in a fantasy setting. People are supposed to do things for believable human reasons, most historical actions can be traced to human motivations, etc. And most meaningful setting actors are people, or otherwise act like people.

b) Starting at the state where players can make meaningful actions on a geopolitical scale, rather than the traditional zero-to-hero leveling approach. Rapidly reaching the ability to do this and then staying on that plateau.

c) A commitment to not allow takebacks of bad decisions - player actions (ideally) have impact and lasting in-game consequences.

2. What about Exalted would describe as most interesting and evocative?
a) Post-apocalyptic magic science is cool.

b) An amusingly cynical willingness to subvert standard fantasy tropes. As an example, the PCs, ostensibly shining chosen champions of the god of light, elevated to fight against evil... are actually chosen by a blind algorithm and designed to facilitate a slave revolt which they successfully won and now have no inherent purpose, and the god of light is retired and just wants to watch TV and smoke weed.

"You won the cosmic superpower lottery because you're the kind of dude who would have been a great murderer of Titans back when Titans were a thing, but there aren't any titans left unmurdered or unimprisoned (good job, previous holder of the cosmic murderstick), what do you do with it?" is reasonably interesting as a break from the usual, or was at the time of Exalted's release.

3. What would you call Exalted's worst features?
a) Incredibly inconsistent writing, due to terrible / nonexistent editing to ensure freelancers stuck to the plan and did not go off their rockers. It's incoherent to the point where someone can reasonably argue with citations that everything I mentioned above is the aberrant viewpoint, and the game is supposed to be a juvenile power fantasy with no complexity.

b) System is dog shit: overly complex, large swathes of it are nonfunctional, no QC process, etc etc.
 
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1. What would say Exalted's essential features are?
You need to be able to play as humans exalted by the gods, So the name makes sense. You need to be far beyond the power level of a normal fantasy setting from chargen for the main group. The setting has to be unique and interesting compared to other fantasy settings.

2. What about Exalted would describe as most interesting and evocative?

The powers are evocative, and say something about the character beyond 'you can do this thing' allowing fun things like Shyft's essays (Ie, bogstromancy). Large numbers of powers that are just 'do this thing better' or 'shoot a fireball lulidk' don't really have a place in Exalted beyond a few minor examples. (Well, they do now, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.)

The whole animist setting and thaumaturgy are good and fun, as are things like the lost advanced technology of an ancient age, the Sun being a giant robot, the moon being a giant robot, ect. (Again, this is no longer true and I am angry)

Malfeas, the demonic soul hierarchy, and whatnot are one of the most unique ideas around, and are definitely worth preserving, as they make designing new demons easy by providing a framework, while still leaving enough room to be interesting.

Many parts of the setting, paticularly in the South and East are interesting to play in. Gem, Chiascuro, Paragon, and Ang Teng in particular. West, Center, and North have never really appealed to me, and if feels like much of the Realm is interchangeable with other parts of the Realm, with some exceptions.

3. What would you call Exalted's worst features?
Where can I even start? They system has always been horrible, though 3e has made most of the subsystems functional. Even in 3e, mass combat is boring, managing a project might as well not have been written for all the good it does, and crafting is actively bad. Additionally in 3e, the devs have been working to remove many of the things that drew me to Exalted in the first place, which has approximatly all my hate.

The setting makes no sense as written. Nations having trade wars across thousands of miles of dessert, Sijan doing funeral stuff for people from way too far away to make any sense, ect.
Walking tactical nukes, as in 'step on a dragon line and blow up every demesne connected to it in a certain radius'
I feel like this goes too far in the opposite direction. A Warstrider should be less powerful than Behemoths, able to scatter armies and destroy cities, but going down to powerful artifacts, sorcery, Exalts, or whatever. Something that you can have a battle with several on each side, when doing a fight between a Deathlord and the Realm, or the Realm and Lookshy, or whatever.
 
I got into exalted mostly because borgstromancy is awesome, and i was stick of constantly having to fight people over the crunch/fluff divide in D&D.

Also, I was promised the exalted was a setting where it was understood that the players are larger than life characters with superpowers and there would be none of this "muh realism" nonsense.

1. What would you say Exalted's essential features are?
2. What about Exalted would describe as most interesting and evocative?
3. What would you call Exalted's worst features?

1.

A. PCs are explicitly superpowered-demigods. High Power/High Magic/High Fantasy. Kick silly notions like physics to the curb and run on rule of cool. If it;s impossible, that just means you need to roll 5 extra successes.

B. Deliberate invocation of Ancient Myth and Legend, rather than tolkien-esque fantasy, as the inspiration, as well as deliberate use of non-western folklore and aesthetics. It may be painted over with magitech, animistic spiritualism, and Wuxia, but at heart, Exalted evokes the "Mythic Age of Heroes." The prototypes for Exalts are Achilles, Guan Yu, and Gilgamesh, rather than the 13th century french style King Arthur of Le Morte D'Arthur. Exalted is Bronze/Heroic age, not Middle Ages. And it's aesthetics draw as much on Imperial China as it does the Mediterranean.

C. Animism. I feel that people over focus on the Wuxia. The animism is really much more focal for me. 2e devoted more than a page to the mechanics of prayer, and symbolism, sympathetic associations, and spiritual hierarchies are all played pretty straight. See Borgstromancy. Exalted is a game where Tarot and the I Ching are things you can bring to the table and integrate and not feel out of place.

D. The ability to go beyond the personal scale and work on the geopolitical scale. Bureaucracy should be as if not more powerful vis-a-vis martial abilities. This was promised but not delivered on. not even in 3e, judging from the leak. Fans have adhoc'ed this pretty well, and there is a very weak system from Masters of Jade you can use.

2.

A. Cyclical history with constant repetitions of the same mistakes and disasters, for the very believable reasons of "people are people and thus have differences of priority, desire, and interpretation behind their differences of opinion" and "People tend to patch over problems rather than actually fix them at their source"

B. Borgstromancy. This is Integration of fluff and mechanics. Exalts have discrete bits of magic called charms and these are actual thing that exist in the setting. Your motes are actual measurable, science-able quanta of spiritual power. There are no "blinded, 2 rounds, and a BS explanation for the effect that sounds lame to anyone who's ever tried that in RL," or "This spell would break the economy in half and yet mysteriously no one in this setting recognizes it and only uses the spell to kill orcs." Sadly, 3e is throwing this aspect out - charms are no longer actual things that exists and are known in character.

C. A consistent theme of "Actions have consequences," usually of the "fuixing problems by creating more problems" sort. Tied to a inherent setting conceit that this is very much a greek tragedy crapsack world half empty, not because it has to be that way but because of the choices of your character and her predecessors.


3.

A. Being made by White Wolf (and their successors), and their asinine idea of "maturity."

B. Lack of Chapter Headings, Indexes, Glossaries, and other things. Also a feature of WW.

C. Certain parts of the fanbase's embracing of the "maturity" and their tendency to be arrogant pricks as a result. So much 7edgy12me.
 
I think we can all say, and have a pretty good agreement on, what the worst part of the 2E Exalted fluff was

Infernals. Namely, the fluff at the beginning that makes you go "Well I'm fucking done with this book."
 
Infernals was so vile that I almost quit a game I was playing when I read it. It was so vile that I don't see any point in dwelling on it in any detail, other than to discard it.
 
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