3rd edition, I would characterize primarily as being hostile to an overarching, consistent and objective setting. It is the Exalted of the individual. Its mechanics and narrative choices all exist to idealize and accentuate singular character (the PCs notably), and locations. Not to provide a practical examination of realpolitik between nations, mundane or supernatural.
I'm gonna ask you:
What are you basing this on?

Because all the 3E setting material I can think off talks about how it's places, polities, factions, etc. relate to others.
Whitewalls description talks about it's relationship with the Realm, and has a whole section on it's relationship with it's neighbours.
Chiaroscuro talks about it's trade relationships, it's status in the Realm, and once again has a whole section on it's neighbouring locales.
Basically every location in the Scavenger Lands talks about it's relationship with Lookshy - and yes has a section on it's neighbours.
Yu-Shan's description talks about it's Fair Folk and Malfeas Embassy, and of course talks at great length about what the various Bureaus actually do in relation to Creation.

I could go on, but once again I ask - what are you baseing this on?
I've read both 2E setting material (having started with that edition) and 3E setting material, and the latter is far more useful for painting a picture of a cohesive setting.
 
3rd edition, I would characterize primarily as being hostile to an overarching, consistent and objective setting. It is the Exalted of the individual. Its mechanics and narrative choices all exist to idealize and accentuate singular character (the PCs notably), and locations. Not to provide a practical examination of realpolitik between nations, mundane or supernatural.

You absolutely can still do those things in 3rd edition, but they're not set up at a systemic level or editorial one, as far as my read goes. I also caveat that with how post-3e Core is an entirely different team of writers, languishing under the malus that is 3e core.
This is not an accurate description of Exalted Third Edition.

Basically they're always relegated to a supplement work, and due to production/editorial limitations, they're never given a solid plan to integrate into the setting. The ST is expected to do a lot of that work.

So like, the core books or setting books won't ever say 'so and so' has warstriders, deploys them like so, and so on. Or warstrider equivalents. Instead, they'll be set aside as footnotes, or given a chapter in a relevant Artifacts book.

Then you get the challenge that Exalted's tone is deliberately malleable. Some folks like me want Warstriders to be viable, but also hanger queens that represent a significant socio-economic investment in their upkeep and deployment. Other folks want them to be accessible super-robots with casual upkeep and the like.
Ex3, the current edition of the game, gives a pretty clear answer to this: Warstriders are hangar queens. Specifically, a character requires either Craft (First Age Artifice) or Craft (Artifacts) (the latter at +3 Difficulty), Lore 5, Occult 5, and Terrestrial Circle Sorcery. In addition, the tools and materials required for maintenance are a Resource 4 purchase and occupy the space of a medium workshop. So you quite literally do need a hangar, as well as a sorcerer-artificer, to keep your warstrider running. You will need one scene of maintenance for every ten hour of operation, so it is somewhat unrealistically sturdy, but that's only as long as they're undamaged. Each individual level of damage on a warstrider requires a major crafting project whose duration is determined by how superficial the damage is, from hours to weeks. So any warstrider that gets into a fight is going to have to spend a few days in the docking bay being tended to, and that'll cost resources.

So this is a pretty rigidly defined systems, with clear guidelines for maintenance, cost, and time. It's not very fuzzy at all, and the book explicitly warns that taking a warstrider at chargen on a campaign supposed to be "heroes wandering from town to town" is going to be an issue because they can't really do that.

Of course, through the grace of Solar Craft all things are possible, but many people don't want to interact with that subsystem.
 
This is flatly incorrect to a degree that I am in fact kind of baffled you would make the claim with a straight face.
Seconded. Like, on the mechanical level, maybe I'll give you that, I think it's pretty strenuously arguable but it is a point that can be argued. Narratively? Are you fucking kidding me? Like, this is the edition where what feels like half the Lunar Dominions are places like Iscomay, where - hell, I'll just quote the book;
Fangs at the Gate p.73-74 said:
True Voice departed Iscomay centuries ago, content with its development and eager to found new dominions closer to the hated Realm. Despite her familial ties, she feels little affinity for her ancestral homeland, having found a deeper kinship in the Silver Pact. Now that the Realm teeters on the brink of civil war, she's returned in all her Exalted glory as a prophet-saint to unleash the Iscomayari against the hated Dynasty alongside the other cultures she's shaped. However the House of Siladar has grown beyond her initial designs, and pushing it away from its expansionistic ambitions to wage war against Realm interests is proving more difficult than she'd expected. She cites ancient precedents she wrote into the Book in anticipation of this eventuality, only to find that the leading khojas interpretations of these passages differ starkly from her original intent.
 
3rd edition, I would characterize primarily as being hostile to an overarching, consistent and objective setting. It is the Exalted of the individual. Its mechanics and narrative choices all exist to idealize and accentuate singular character (the PCs notably), and locations. Not to provide a practical examination of realpolitik between nations, mundane or supernatural.

You absolutely can still do those things in 3rd edition, but they're not set up at a systemic level or editorial one, as far as my read goes. I also caveat that with how post-3e Core is an entirely different team of writers, languishing under the malus that is 3e core.
I really wish you would actually read these books instead of authoritatively espousing ice cold reheated circa 2013 takes about the version of them you have been imagining for a decade.
 
Regarding Warstriders, I've been looking through the books about them in 3e and it feels that they aren't very integrated into the setting. I feel as if they could use some writeups about organizations in Lookshy and the Realm that are tasked with maintaining them or how they hold places of honor within the palaces of major noble houses.

This is actually backwards in a way that's kind of telling. I got deep into Exalted in 2e. I liked a lot of what I saw, and had other bits that didn't really click. Warstriders in 2e was a big example of what didn't work. Warstriders are there, and also warstriders are rarely there. The books encourage you to dial up or down their presence, but it's a mess to do it either way: if warstriders are not a sufficiently significant improvement over not-using-a-warstrider, then there's no point in warstriders. On the other hand, if it is enough of a boon, then you're not a serious combatant beyond a certain level if you don't have one.

Both of these takes were then complicated by the messiness of 2e's actual mechanics. They run into the reality of perfect defenses and associated system mastery and that means that only one of the ends of that dial even fits at all without massive homebrew. There's an intention to allow options, but then it's broken.

Beyond what Omicron shared with how much time and resources are necessary to make a warstrider work, 3e has a very explicit, and well-supported, role for warstriders. Their role is fight armies.

The inclusion of the Devastating Action mechanic makes this work, squaring the circle that 2e failed to achieve. A warstrider can be a cool set-piece boss for a circle of Exalts, but that's not its role as far as the in-setting doctrine for their use goes. The warstrider's massive size is used to shatter armies, and the devastating action makes that function. In fact, this even is potentially useful in using warstriders in other fashions! The fact that the enemy might rout your ally's army with a warstrider serves as a hype squad for how cool and tough the warstrider is, meaning that its next encounter being a boss fight for the PC Exalts now feels more cool.

I still don't like warstriders, but they're much better considered and included with current lore and mechanics.

2nd edition reacted to that by making the hopelessness less explicit, and relegating the World of Darkness connections to a cute reference. Most of what we consider 2e's strongest writing came from Moran and Grabowski, neither of which had a true 'editor's view' of the setting, but still gave us much of the core flavor that kept 2nd edition going until the fans of Holden and Morke overtook them in late 2e (Dawn solution, DotFA Errata, etc).

3rd edition, I would characterize primarily as being hostile to an overarching, consistent and objective setting. It is the Exalted of the individual. Its mechanics and narrative choices all exist to idealize and accentuate singular character (the PCs notably), and locations. Not to provide a practical examination of realpolitik between nations, mundane or supernatural.

You absolutely can still do those things in 3rd edition, but they're not set up at a systemic level or editorial one, as far as my read goes. I also caveat that with how post-3e Core is an entirely different team of writers, languishing under the malus that is 3e core.
This is a baffling take to me. 2e's setting lore is very big on connecting the big setting places (Gem, Sijan, Nexus, etc) and how they connect to every other location in their Direction and anywhere else relevant. It kind of made it hard to fit in cool new cultures, even if you just found a nice, big, India-sized empty chunk of map. There can't be anything too important there, because they would have had an entry in the Great Forks section of the books, or similar pieces. Its lack becomes its own sort of authoritative.

Now, every 3e location write-up has a section on its neighbors and a bite-sized explanation of how they are plugged into a living, complicated web of people groups in their area, with the implication that these postage-stamp-sized summaries are as complicated as the places that we know, and that they have neighbors of their own.

On top of that, the 3e Directions (especially the greatly expanded 'diagonals') have themes and tones, as well as complicated histories about how cultures and people groups feel a lot more consistent and overarching. If I hear "I've been writing about a culture in the Dreaming Sea for my own homebrew", I know what sort of vibe it should have, and I can ask things like "how did this culture interact with Y'danna at the height of Y'danna's empire?" It's more easily coherent either without adding many new cultures or by adding them, compared to how the gameline was last edition.

That's kind of why I don't think I agree with this assertion. I know you said that this is "as far as [your] read goes", so I'm curious what you're building this off of. What systems or editorial decisions make it hostile to having an overarching, consistent and objective setting?
 
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The 3e corebook might be said to have a more character-focused lean to the setting, but I've always assumed that it was because it had a different team of writers and, to be honest, it kinda has to be, because the setting is just so vast that it's hard to put it into one book.

But, from What Fire Has Wrought onwards, the setting has been very grounded, full of details of how the world actually works. I'm reminded of something Brad Bird said about The Incredibles: it's full of the "fantastic and the mundane." From what I've gathered, the fact that Mnemon makes her money from construction is something that 3e introduced, for example. This does not displace the fiction before the Charms section where she goes toe-to-toe with the iconic Night Caste Solar and forces her assailant to run away. If 3e post-writer change is about anything, it's about what living in Creation would actually be like. It's putting up all these social systems, beliefs, and cultures, and asking you to engage with them. The most prominent example of this I can think of are the culture charms in Fangs at the Gate, which isn't just a narrative means of engaging with the setting, but a mechanical one as well. As another example:

Lunars: Fangs at the Gate said:
Guiding the Flock
Cost: 1m; Mins: Charisma 3, Essence 1
Type: Supplemental
Keywords: None
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Beast-King Dictates

The herd of mortal society is at times predictable. The Lunar doubles 9s on a persuade, bargain, or threaten roll to convince her targets to act in a way that aligns with a custom of a culture they belong to.

Just picking the first thing that I spotted when I flipped to the relevant section. There's others which are more powerful and have more interesting effects, but this gets my point across. Lunars can get bonuses from interacting with the setting how it is.

There's a whole subset of these charms in Fangs at the Gate, so much so that the authors had to include a sidebar discussing what a culture is—it's on page 163. You don't even need that much of an investment to begin getting bonuses from interacting in the cultural contexts; Beast-King Dictates is the root of the tree. You can get Guiding the Flock at character creation pretty easily! Though "culture" in this context might not be a mechanical construct in and of itself, I could imagine a separate sheet just with the intimacies of a culture on it, maybe along with a few other things describing the size and intransigence of the culture itself. Just spitballing.

That's beside the point; the point is that Exalted 3e in the Vance & Minton era regularly presents Exalts as situated in their milieux. They are not apart from it, they do not hover over it, they do not power through it. They are a part of the setting. Not that other editions of the setting didn't, but IMHO it's been a regular focus throughout the line after Mørke and Holden were booted.

In conclusion, I think warstriders are best used sparingly, because breaking them out too often makes them mundane. Powerful tools that need a lot of time and resources to upkeep—that feels like a good place for them. :V
 
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Nothing about Warstriders is even close to "real robots", genre-wise??
Like, please explain to me what you understand under that and how it applies to Warstriders.

Each and every Warstrider is a unique artifact, with explicitly magical powers, often the product of an ancient civilization, and they're all piloted by people with exceptional, magical abilities.
There are no mass-production models of Warstriders, or an equivalent to them. They aren't the result of a military-industrial complex developing more and more complex weapons, with one model eventually replacing the next. They aren't integrated into a modern military.

Just the fact that they require maintenance or repairs does not make Warstriders real robots, or even "more like real robots".
There's always been Super Robots that have required maintenance (e.g. Voltron). Requiring repairs is even more common, since that just serves as the equivalent of needing to heal after a fight.

Likewise, fighting in wars does not make Warstriders any "more like real robots".
Basically all Mecha fight, duh. Many are explicitly integrated into their military (e.g. Gunbuster).

Genres and genre-conventions don't always necessarily have hard lines, but the way Warstriders is so firmly Super Robot that I'm honestly baffled.
It's an explicitly magical, one-of-a-kind robot that empowers a supernatural character to perform even grander feats. That's what a Warstrider is all about.
This feels like a really hostile way to tell me I used the term "Real robots" wrong.

I'm sorry if my lack of expertise in mecha shows offended you. The intent was just to point to how historically the Exalted setting has never (ime) commited to a dingular vision of what Warstriders are in terms of things like prevelence, cost, capabilities, etc. And because of that they have never been fully integrated into a setting in such a way as to inform the world building.

Like, I genuinely cannot tell you how Warstriders fit into realm combat doctrine, who makes them, how many their are, what similar technolgoies their existence implies, etc.

And maybe that comes down to not reading the books closely enough, but my impression has been that Exalted doesn't want to answer that question because it doesn't want to close off ideas space for players.

In a way that, for me, ends ironically closing that same space because I don't have a baseline to build off of.
 
This is not an accurate description of Exalted Third Edition.


Ex3, the current edition of the game, gives a pretty clear answer to this: Warstriders are hangar queens. Specifically, a character requires either Craft (First Age Artifice) or Craft (Artifacts) (the latter at +3 Difficulty), Lore 5, Occult 5, and Terrestrial Circle Sorcery. In addition, the tools and materials required for maintenance are a Resource 4 purchase and occupy the space of a medium workshop. So you quite literally do need a hangar, as well as a sorcerer-artificer, to keep your warstrider running. You will need one scene of maintenance for every ten hour of operation, so it is somewhat unrealistically sturdy, but that's only as long as they're undamaged. Each individual level of damage on a warstrider requires a major crafting project whose duration is determined by how superficial the damage is, from hours to weeks. So any warstrider that gets into a fight is going to have to spend a few days in the docking bay being tended to, and that'll cost resources.

So this is a pretty rigidly defined systems, with clear guidelines for maintenance, cost, and time. It's not very fuzzy at all, and the book explicitly warns that taking a warstrider at chargen on a campaign supposed to be "heroes wandering from town to town" is going to be an issue because they can't really do that.

Of course, through the grace of Solar Craft all things are possible, but many people don't want to interact with that subsystem.
This is goog information btw, and I'm glad Ex3 has made a definitive decision here. I've tried to get into 3e several times and bounced off, so most of my posts are necessarily based primarily in 2e/1e
 
Exalted's warstriders frankly do not fit neatly into the real robot/super robot dichotomy. Like, this is a narrative division about mecha as (in the fiction) practical war machines that need maintenance and have hard limitations and have a specific role in warfare versus mecha as something more fantastical. It's not really about the presence or lack of magic -- Vision of Escaflowne, one of the primary inspirations for this part of the setting, is a very good example of a fantasy real robot anime.

3e's decision that there are no truly interchangable warstriders doesn't like, make the narrative role that they have go away, it doesn't take away the fact that one of the primary kinds of stories you can tell with them are military stories where you're an elite Dragon-Blooded soldier in a magical mech suit go away. Like, the chapter fiction for Arms of the Chosen has this very memorable detail in its warstrider chapter fiction. In it, the pilot is an Earth Aspect in a red jade warstrider, and because her anima is flaring it's combining with her sweat to make a layer of mud on her from the stress and the heat of being jumped by a Dawn Caste while she was out flame throwering a bunch of infantry. This is very much real robot shit.

You could tell a super robot story in Exalted, but you'd probably want to go for an N/A one like Karvara, the Walking Devil Tower, which is much more fantastical than something like Crusading Spear of the Depths.
 
Exalted's warstriders frankly do not fit neatly into the real robot/super robot dichotomy. Like, this is a narrative division about mecha as (in the fiction) practical war machines that need maintenance and have hard limitations and have a specific role in warfare versus mecha as something more fantastical.
I don't think 'needs maintenance' is the line here, because it's entirely possible for a super robot show to almost entirely be centered around maintenance and limitations (Dai-Guard is entirely this concept, but for a more well-known one one the second half of GaoGaiGar) while a real robot show can put startling little concern on logistics (Cross Ange notably, but also 86). Actually, coming to think of it, super robot protagonist are significantly more likely to get rolled in the mud or get jumped by human-sized opponents, largely because those things happening are lose conditions for many real robot protagonists. Getter in particular is an unabashedly super robot series that also frankly taps deeper into the trauma of war and fighting than most real robot series.

If I have to put a dividing line, it's the 'spectre of death', and everything else - mass production models, dodging vs taking hits, war themes - rolls out from that. And warstriders in 3e are not trivially destroyed by regular soldiers - you need other Legendary Size opponents who don't grow on trees (except Tyrant Lizards I guess) or the Celestial Exalted to seriously threaten them, and that's before you count the Exalted in the driver's seat. The moment in the chapter fiction you brought up could easily be in Getter or Mazinkaiser. Or Super Sentai, where using your mecha to roll over the endless mook hordes while also fighting the miniboss in the control cockpit has occurred.
 
I don't think 'needs maintenance' is the line here
I would be happy for this correction if I had actually said that it was the singular defining feature of the genre.

I stand by my previous post and find your position generally pretty unconvincing in terms of that chapter fiction somehow being exclusively super robot in tone.
 
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