Because you have power, but that power isn't actually good for solving the worlds problems. You can slaughter armies. Congratulations, you just butchered thousands of people for... what? A cause? A fit of pique? Because they opposed you? You can use social fu to turn people into your followers... though the way social Charms work what you are actually doing is engaging in mass brainwashing and mind control, turning people into your slaves. You can summon demons and bind them to service and it is 100% reliable and useful and... it makes you a slaver who is basically turning prisoners of war into your personal suicidal fanatics. Exalted is a setting where the moral choice is always always the harder choice and where every problem can be very easily punched in the face and butchered with glorious violence that will not solve a thing, ever.
This isn't actually a game feature, lol.

This is just you going "Why bother trying to fix problems? Why do anything? Nyeeeeeehhhh... :("

That's not a property of the rules. That's just a character (or player??) feeling depressed, because sure, they can fix all these problems, but by golly, there's just going to be more problems later! :(

This is actually a feature of every roleplaying game ever designed.

With the possible exception of Exalted.

In everything from D&D to Ironclaw to Cops and fucking Robbers, you will run into problems that can't be solved by violence or the direct application of superpowers. Even in your own example, though, the heroes can just sweep in, kill the baddies, convince everyone they're great, and set up a self perpetuating system which is idyllic by whatever standards the PCs possess. They can topple the entire order of the world and replace it with whatever they want.

This "isn't solving the problem" only insofar as yet more baddies will come from other worlds and attack them. But you can defeat those enemies through the application of even more violence. This can continue escalating, like Dragonball Z, until you track down the Shinma and rewrite reality so things like hunger and suffering don't exist anymore.

You do this by using violence.
No absolute good. No absolute evil. Even the biggest badguys in the setting often have legitimate grievances and issues such as being trapped in eternal torment for all eternity
You could say the same thing about D&D, Lord of the Rings, and the Bible.

Sauron, Satan, who are the evil deities in D&D... Kurtulmak? All of these are morally grey by your reasoning. Adolf Hitler is more morally grey than the baddies in Exalted. At least he didn't want to reduce the entire globe to a hellscape of twisted suffering in order to punish it for all eternity.

The Yozis are, charitably speaking, completely broken, like mad dogs that need to be put down for their own good. The Neverborn are worse. Their servants are all ridiculous caricatures of villains.

Serious question. Who is more morally grey: The First and Forsaken Lion, or Skeletor?
 
Is anyone aware of a good and decent Oramus Charm suite (for himself and his Component souls, not GSPs)? I can't draw a principled distinction between him and what you might imagine for powerful raksi or even shinma.
 
Serious question. Who is more morally grey: The First and Forsaken Lion, or Skeletor?

Skeletor was just a title claimant for the throne of Eternia, pushed into madness and desperation by his disfigurement and the sacrifices he had to make to survive it. He ostensibly wants power and rulership and uses a tightly-knit cabal of warriors loyal to him to gain the throne, rather than an army. If not for his more unsavory practices and dependance on trickery and sorcery to win, he'd be pretty heroic (in the classic sense).

In Exalted he'd be a renegade Abyssal. :p
 
*nervous tic*

That is in line with what I said (Lytek; improper cleaning), but Lytek cannot give an Exalt memories of a past incarnation. He holds on to the memories of Exalts who are hosts of the Shard, and can perhaps let the Exalt that is the shard's new host experience them. Any given Exalt's actual past life is forever lost to Lethe.
Isn't there a background that gives you the memories of Hun soul's previous life?
 
One of the corebooks, or possibly both, mention that the Charms in the book are the result of thousands of years of experimentation and training and development by all the previous generations of Exalted and are as good as they are ever going to get (its in the coming up with new Charms section and is the reason why you can't design a Charm better than Hungry Tiger Technique at being Hungry Tiger Technique). This implies they didn't start that way.
Strictly speaking, just because thousands of years have been spent on the attempt doesn't mean they were successful. Slightly more efficient combat charms mean winning everything forever, so it would come as no surprise that stubborn people kept banging their head on an unbreakable wall. The corebook also mentions that the charms therein are among the easiest to learn.

Fundamentally, there is not much room for weaker Solar charms without yielding oddness like the original Solars being weaker than the original Sidereals, as the Sidereal charmset is fixed. Not impossible, but definitely bizarre and unexpected.
 
3: The fact that it often feels like 99.99% of the population of creation don't really matter. The fact WW is cripplingly bad at making mechanics when they get too specific. The obsession with blood and titties. The fact that creation often ends up feeling kind of small despite how big it is (the latter is being remedied in 3rd at least.)

A big problem I thought of after last night is also the lack of a generic hero type of exalted. Dragon Blooded are sort of it but their elemental flavouring I think rather cuts into it.

If I was rewriting exalted I'd almost certainly give mortals a lot more access to mystical martial arts. Just because you can only meet so many dragon blooded.
To pick off of this, the problem is that, at least being WW and the Solars being "heroes" and everyone loves a good subversion. The Solars are built to handle the 99.99999% that doesn't matter and the rest that is tied into this not quite metaplot no wants outside of a very specific way of handling. I don't mind the blood and titties. Jsut include some asses and male genitalia. The thing is integrate them not exploit them. And at least act like sex has consequences. It annoys me in a series up to the brim with sexploitive practices people single out one or two or three groups as evil for doing prurient headline "wrong" things but want cookies on how progressive they are. An example, the way Lilun was presented was made to make you freak out that a fourteen year old was being sexually violated. But uhm flesh trading like this, the sexual escapades of children that age, have ALREADY been key in the games. Just how old and well compensated are all the prostitute characters offhandedly mention handling are? Add in the arbitrary fact its mroe about social coded programming and not actual moral interst and I role my eyes. its like Desus being the universe's villain for being a wifebeater, the ONLY wifebeater, hate him. Its Lifetime morality crap.

When Exalted is firing right it gets you in a different mindset where you don't react but may want to change and civilize what's wrong or got with it or rileplay how someone deals with this. As the setting and material expands how or what you can change gets locked down. Thats a flaw. When it goes wrong it switches to Freak You Out Shock Rock. The difference between being spouse in a poly-circle, and nerd imagining he's the center of a harem anime with the risk of Sudden Screed about Evil Cults and the abusive LEaders we all hate.

I just know they are going to back off on Lilun because "we're really the bad guys.. how do we deal with that" isn't 'fun.' But Solars often get stuck with "you're actually responsible for some fucked up shit, if not in your past CERTAINLY in the present because power plus ability doesn't equal perfection despite what you think.

Serious question. Who is more morally grey: The First and Forsaken Lion, or Skeletor?
First is Skeletor (well more Horde Prime) with more depth and width and treated as if a TRUE THREAT rhat has and WILL win if you don't take this seriously.
That still makes him black as fuck. BUUuuuut....
The idea is that no matter what you're still using violence, your opponent is a person and there will be consequences and only your choices not some inherit unmarkable badge, will prevent you from ending up as black as your foes or causing similar suffering.
 
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So I was mean to a friend about Exalted this morning, so I thought I'd do something nice in return.

I've always wanted to like Exalted but found it difficult. Even the parts I like (Dragon-Bloods) are weighed down by poor writing and conceits, and the parts I dislike (the Infernals book) are so freakishly bad that I almost dropped a game because of it. But I've still wanted to like it, despite it messy, pointlessly huge, regularly poorly conceived setting, and frankly atrocious rules. But is that not always the case when discussing a White Wolf property ...?

Anyway, I'd like to try and boil Exalted down to its essence (do ho ho) and produce the thematic and aesthetic framework for an 'Exalted 0th Edition.' The idea would be to eliminate extraneous material and hone in on what could make it a great game with unerring, laser-like focus ... as defined by me.

To get some non-me perspectives, I'd like to ask people in this thread some questions. They are:

1. What would you say Exalted's essential features are?
2. What about Exalted would describe as most interesting and evocative?
3. What would you call Exalted's worst features?


You can be as specific or general as you like.

1. What would you say Exalted's essential features are?
Exalted, at is core, tells the story of a society beyond our own – that through wars and strife has fallen back into barbarism. Heaven has long turned its back and lost any respect for humanity, how could it? Humanity has fallen from an age of infinite power, flying fortresses, floating cities and electricity/water. The Realm has not slipped as far, it retains it's plumbing and sometimes essence lighting, but it is sliding into decay. The knowledge of the centuries has been lost and power is held by those with who have scavenged what working bits of the old world work. It's much like playing Fallout, the error is that far too many players seek to make the first age wonders again in a single story. Too many ST's seek to allow too many wonders to have survived. What was, if it very much lost, even if the Solars and Lunars join hands again – it will be a long road of many centuries to remake a sliver of what was.

2. What about Exalted would describe as most interesting and evocative?

Exalted is full of different organizations, some directional and some in different planes, but all with designs on Creation. The Guild, Realm, Silver Pact, Heaven and Malfeas to but name some of the larger and better known, but even directional gods and the Exalted as individuals will have massive influence. Each of these larger institutions have a dozen facets as the powers that lead them cannot be bowed to a singular vision, rather each is a hydra with each head thinking it knows best. Weaving it all together, the world is more alive than any other I've played, it has no limits. Build a nation, march an army on your enemies, pillage the Wyld, explore the Labyrinth, forge 10,000 ghosts into a warmachine or a work of art. There is room for everything in Exalted, not just warriors and wizards, but artisans and artists – bureaucrats and builders. It is a realistic world, unlike D&D's "adventurer" scenarios – it's perfectly viable to be a merchant or a byzantine aristocrat. You set your motivation, you forge the world to your vision whatever it may be, and that is a glorious thing.

3. What would you call Exalted's worst features?

The worst thing about Exalted is the correlation between it's mechanics and it's fluff. The problem with Exalted is the huge shifts of theme between editions. Mechanically a well built exalt breaks the mechanics into mote attrition, mechanically a well built exalt will force battle to be all or nothing – perfect defense or instant death. Social combat is hugely flawed with the same lack of progression – UMI results in perfect or die. Everything is tied into willpower; casting magic, refusing a well worded request and great acts of essence – a horrible system. The worst though, it the break from fluff that tells of Lunars counting coop and earning renown, of the Wild Hunt tracking down Exalted and slaying them, of Gods being given respect and the greater gods stand higher than all but the eldest Exalted. Yet, in play, none of this comes to light. A Solar can kill an unlimited number of Dragonbloods with their lack of perfects, a Lunar fight falls into the same – no trading of blows and earning of scars, and gods are sneered at and treated as weak in all cases save the Incarnae.
In terms of shifting of themes, it has caused great divides in the fan community but also within the writers themselves. Those who proscribe to first edition are Sword and Sandals, the setting is akin to Conan, you are stronger than men but throwing down the dark powers of the world is a prodigious struggle that lays you low and sometimes you must throw away your honor, beg the gods for aid, turn to assistance of others, and lure enemies into traps. It is not a simple flare of essence and thrown perfects, it is grand storytelling and arduous trials. Those who proscribe to 2nd edition are more of an anime mindset, playing a Evangelion or Gurren Lagann, both media that proscribe heavily to the perfect or die mindset. Cities, mountains and even the world can shatter to your power, you are an adamant whirlwind in a world made of fine china. The PC's are a cut above other Exalted, as heroic mortals are above mortals, and they are only viewed as tools or minor roadblocks to whatever the PC's have in mind. Most often murder hobo'ing every "problem" in Creation, killing every Deathlord and Akuma, and accumulating every magic item in the game. It's really rather like many people play Elderscrolls, it's not about the story, it's about killing everything and throwing every magic item in the game into a chest or upon your person.
So in my opinion that's the problem with Exalted: Mechanics failing to mesh with the world lore and huge theme shifts between editions breeding a generation of setting dissonance – resulting in sloppy writing and rampant confusion.
 
The problem with WW is that it's fans are unable to talk about WW without needlessly dissing D&D. Usually not very accurately either.

If the sorcerer who bound him dies, the Demon is now free in creation, right?
 
The idea is that no matter what you're still using violence, your opponent is a person and there will be consequences and only your choices not some inherit unmarkable badge, will prevent you from ending up as black as your foes or causing similar suffering.
And this is in opposition to all those RPGs where violence has no consequences? No, I think you'll find that people die if they are killed in most systems.

"Good people can turn bad" is not a new concept for people above the age of four. Every RPG that's actually an RPG will give the GM the ability to rub players in the fact that they've done something bad. D&D, for all the shit it gets, has the concept of the fallen paladin. (Unlike, say, Exalted, where the Zenith can keep casting Smite Evil no matter how many babies they stab)

Exalted is actually remarkably bad at this thing you say it's uniquely good at. It makes it extremely difficult for the GM to force the players to give a shit about the consequences of their actions. He can't make the paladin fall. He can't make the city guards arrest the PCs because they're untouchable God Kings. He can't even make people stay mad at the them!

"The town descends into chaos!"
"I use bureaucracy charms to make it a model of efficiency instead."
"Okay. Order is restored and their new system of government proves immensely successful. But they're still mad at you!"
"Why? Okay, whatever. I don't care. I use social charms so they like us."
"They throw you a parade."
"Cool. Let's bounce."
 
This discussion is very fascinating and I would like to see it continue, but I do have to say that one of the things that really struck me about Exalted was the contradiction inherent to it. It's as Ralson says, it wants to be a game of consequences, while also being a game where the player characters can do anything. It often seems afraid to actually have there be some hard consequences to the actions of a Solar. Even Gurren 'do the impossible see the invisible' Lagann had Spiral Nemesis.
 
The consequences don't necessarily have to fall on YOU, mind.

Exalted, in the default setting, has a lot of "we had to burn down the village to save it." You, personally, may be able to escape the consequences of your actions via glorious solar BS, but your GM will be making Spec Ops: The Line cracks at you and your character will have to look back upon the swathe of disaster he has loosed, and contemplate whether it was worth it or not.

Sure, some people play sociopathic murderhobos, but most people I know do actually roleplay people who are empathetic and have a sense of human decency. The whole "choose between benevolence to the people or more personal power" thing.
 
Even Gurren 'do the impossible see the invisible' Lagann had Spiral Nemesis.

Eh.....Not exactly a good example, IMO.

Spiral Nemesis was sort of toothless in the end. We never see any bit of it and if it wasn't for that "Instinctual knowledge that yes, it's a thing" bit, I wouldn't thought it was anything but an Anti-Spiral trick.

I mean, Simon and the others find out about it and about five minutes later, they're like "Right, so that's a thing. Worry about it later, punch these assholes in the face now." Which was promptly followed by the galaxy sized mecha and if you go with the movie the Super TTGL with no consequences for using more Spiral Power than any one ever had before.
 
This discussion is very fascinating and I would like to see it continue, but I do have to say that one of the things that really struck me about Exalted was the contradiction inherent to it. It's as Ralson says, it wants to be a game of consequences, while also being a game where the player characters can do anything. It often seems afraid to actually have there be some hard consequences to the actions of a Solar. Even Gurren 'do the impossible see the invisible' Lagann had Spiral Nemesis.

In practical terms, consequences come down to the Storyteller figuring out the ramifications of player actions, as well as creating situations that the players can take actions that are not inherently optimal.

Do you punch all the kings to get what you want? If yes, the Storyteller eventually starts having people never let you get near Kings in the first place.

I really don't mean to take it back to my charm Essays, but the point of the Solar design philosophy isn't that they win, but that they succeed. The difference lies in 'winning' tends to be a positive, long-term or victorious outcome. Success is much more neutral and accurate to the Solar Experience.

Basically, 2nd edition specifically, put all the onus of consequence on the Storyteller. Take a gander at 1st Edition's Wyld Shaping Technique for how... mechanized the consequences were back then.
 
In practical terms, consequences come down to the Storyteller figuring out the ramifications of player actions, as well as creating situations that the players can take actions that are not inherently optimal.

I think part of the points Ford and especially Ralson are making is, if this is all down to the storyteller....then how is it different to most other rpgs?

Especially when you take into account that Solars, at least, but many other exalts as well have have lots of extremely powerful abilities even relative to the rest of the setting that makes it harder to do this, and I know a number of STs who have had trouble coming up with these sorts of moral quandaries, so not only does this not seem to set it apart, Exalted might even be worse at this sort of thing then a lot of other RPGs.
 
I really don't mean to take it back to my charm Essays, but the point of the Solar design philosophy isn't that they win, but that they succeed. The difference lies in 'winning' tends to be a positive, long-term or victorious outcome. Success is much more neutral and accurate to the Solar Experience.
Which, if we're talking about Borgstrom related stuff, can he demonstrated in a cool way by Nobilis (or Chuubo) where the mortal action tiers give accomplishing your action as relatively simple and way below moving towards a good (however you define that) outcome.
 
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I think part of the points Ford and especially Ralson are making is, if this is all down to the storyteller....then how is it different to most other rpgs?

Especially when you take into account that Solars, at least, but many other exalts as well have have lots of extremely powerful abilities even relative to the rest of the setting that makes it harder to do this, and I know a number of STs who have had trouble coming up with these sorts of moral quandaries, so not only does this not seem to set it apart, Exalted might even be worse at this sort of thing then a lot of other RPGs.

That's very true!

The main thing is mostly psychological, of presenting no greater moral authority to aspire to than themselves. The other factor is that Exalted doesn't instruct Storytellers very well. Almost no game does in fact.
 
Exalted, in the default setting, has a lot of "we had to burn down the village to save it." You, personally, may be able to escape the consequences of your actions via glorious solar BS, but your GM will be making Spec Ops: The Line cracks at you and your character will have to look back upon the swathe of disaster he has loosed, and contemplate whether it was worth it or not.

Maybe your experience is different to mine, but I struggle to imagine a player who would actually give a shit.
 
Maybe your experience is different to mine, but I struggle to imagine a player who would actually give a shit.

Yeah, in my experience players (as well as the characters they're playing) tend to be incredibly good at rationalizing there actions to themselves and, at least in fictionland A) aren't very shy about using violence as a tool to fight for their ideology or goals and B) are surprisingly realistic in accepting the consequences of their actions as inevitable.

In fact, they're often more willing to do that in my experience if they feel like the storyteller is deliberately trying to get them in a "gotcha" moment or fuck with them. I've had far more debates about the morality of a characters actions in most DND games then say, Ravenloft or Dark Sun, because they're it's often expected that the ST will force you into those kind of situations and try to present whatever you do in a bad or backfiring light because of the nature of those places. When this is default, I find most people reflexively stop themselves from empathizing too much, and that's often informs how they rp their character or what kind they create.

This is setting aside that your ST's ability to make effective "Spec Ops The Line" style cracks at you is incredibly relative and in most cases isn't rpg specific.
 
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Maybe your experience is different to mine, but I struggle to imagine a player who would actually give a shit.
Really? Man, you must play with some pretty jaded people. I'd expect all of the players I had in my (brief) Pokemon game to care, and at least 3 of the 5 people I've had in my Exalted game - in and out of character.
Not every player cares about the consequences of in-character actions, but plenty do (and they tend to be the ones that care more about the game, too).
 
What I love about Exalted?

Kicking "Linear Warrior, Quadratic Wizard" in the fucking DICK.

I remember reading this one Dragonlance short story in which a tale is told of a mighty warrior and a mighty wizard throwing down in a duel to the death over a woman. I thought, "Well, shouldn't the wizard have this fight in the bag? Shields and suits of armor don't tend to save you from fireballs or being frozen in blocks of ice, much less just getting straight up turned into a sheep."

But no, this tale-within-a-tale says. It asked me to imagine a warrior so quick of wit and fleet of foot and fast of hand that the wizard stuggled to hit him with anything. At the same time, this was no cowardly page-turner -- the wizard fought back with figurative tooth and nail, always staying just a step enough ahead to avoid a fatal wound from the knight's sword.

In Exalted, warriors can be magical, too. Their skills can be legendary, supernatural, divine.


In short, I really love Charms.
 
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