Maybe your experience is different to mine, but I struggle to imagine a player who would actually give a shit.

If everyone in your group roleplays raging sociopathic murderbots, maybe it's something wrong with your group?

I get plenty of LS Jedi types in my games. People feel bad about how their solution to problem X screwed over Y and Z that they didn't think about if you bring it up later. It's a good way to make your players stop randomly throwing down and start thinking, IME.
 
Sorcery is very much "strategic", or at least large-scale in Exalted, yes.
A lot of the effects are about strategic operations - movement, communication, summoning assistance.
Most of the combat spells are best used on an army-level, because they can easily kill a large amount of ordinary combatants. But they're no real threat to Exalts or other supernatural beings. The higher-level spells do get more deadly, but also affect much larger areas.
There are some individual-level, combat-oriented effects - which give the sorcerer armor and weapons, who're no better than artifacts (if more flexible), so he's not overwhelming/outpacing the "fighter" with them.


That's actually one aspect of Exalted I do like a lot. Sorcery is a support-skill, you have to do your direct combat yourself. There's several fictional characters who do that and whom I really like, but they're hard to represent in a lot of other systems.
 
*shrugs*

To be honest, any given RPG can only take you so far with that sort of stuff in any case.

As for myself... I like Exalted for the setting, and the stories I can tell within it. Because it's a world that has many problems, but is not completely beyond the brink- saving it may be difficult, but it can be done.

As for the worst parts, mostly those first two chapters of Infernals and the fact that the 2e rules do suck. And the fact that 3e's taking so dammed long to actually come out. :V
 
When I said I had trouble imagining it, I really meant that. It's an impression I've gotten from the wider community of people who play RPGs.
But that perfectly explains the entire first age! "Yeah I killed a few million people through my actions, what of it?" That's the sort of thing that makes the Sidereals and Dragonblooded decide to kill you and stuff your exaltation into a box.
 
But that perfectly explains the entire first age! "Yeah I killed a few million people through my actions, what of it?" That's the sort of thing that makes the Sidereals and Dragonblooded decide to kill you and stuff your exaltation into a box.

Aren't the bronze faction and the realm equally guilty of this, if not responsible for far more deaths? I can see a lot of reasons they would criticize certain trends you'd think would be prevalent amongst first and second age solars, but "You kill countless people to fulfill your ideological driven goals" is probably not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself their philosophies.
 
Aren't the bronze faction and the realm equally guilty of this, if not responsible for far more deaths? I can see a lot of reasons they would criticize certain trends you'd think would be prevalent amongst first and second age solars, but "You kill countless people to fulfill your ideological driven goals" is probably not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself their philosophies.
In the fluff at least, the Bronze's and the DB's don't act like they have players controlling them. They also have social structures in place that prevent individuals from using/abusing their godlike powers to reshape the world to their whim, and have less power in general so they can do that less effectively.
 
If everyone in your group roleplays raging sociopathic murderbots, maybe it's something wrong with your group?

I get plenty of LS Jedi types in my games. People feel bad about how their solution to problem X screwed over Y and Z that they didn't think about if you bring it up later. It's a good way to make your players stop randomly throwing down and start thinking, IME.

The thing is, even when the ST showed the consquences of me going Killfuck Soulshitter on armies of hapless mortals, I still couldn't bring myself to give a shit. It's really easy not to care what happens to mortals when their opinions, hopes and dreams are entirely irrelevant and the Zenith can reshape what defines them at a whim.

The only people I really cared about were other Exalts and even then, when they tried to talk to me about consequences, I tended to respond with a daiklave to the face.

Of course, my entire circle is terrified of the fact that I'm a raging psychopathic living weapon in superhuman god-king skin but since they're cult leaders and assasins, they didn't really have any room to talk.

(Paging Dr. Murderblender, the third Sidereal hitsquad is in room 4)
 
In the fluff at least, the Bronze's and the DB's don't act like they have players controlling them.

Well, depends on the player I guess. I know lots of players who would do exactly what the Scarlet Empress did when she got to the control room of The Realm Defense grid.

They also have social structures in place that prevent individuals from using/abusing their godlike powers to reshape the world to their whim,

Well the First Age Solars certainly had this in the form of the Deliberative. How effective it was is up to debate and probably decides where you are on the "Was the Usurpation right" argument. That being said, the realm certainly isn't particularly good at preventing DBs from abusing their power over mortals and even encourages some abuses. Most of the people on the highest echelons of power are realistically untouchable aside from the machinations of people on the same tier of power or the scarlet empress when she was around, and pretty much no one in the realm could hold the scarlet empress accountable for the things she did and the only way she was giving up power was when she finally died. The Bronze faction, and sidereal are better about this since their accountable to heaven's bureaucracy, but in practical terms they seem to have a incredible level of freedom of action in what they do in creation, especially now that they have the curse obscuring their identities.

I mean it's not like Chejop Kejak was acting on orders from Naro-O when he personally decided to head the secret movement to overthrow the order of the world, plunged it into a centuries long apocalyptic world war, and went against the Creation-Ruling mandate, while basically murdering the five coworkers who tried to whistle blow on his group. Correct me if I wrong, but I don't even think that's the reason they broke the mask (I think that's the right constellation?) it was only to cover up the fact that they had to straight up kidnapped Lytek to go through with putting the solar exaltations in the box. Even then it's pretty much a open secret, and they let them basically socially engineer the fate of creation since the fall of the first age. Either this speaks to a incredibly laisez-faire approach on to what the dominant faction of sidereals is allowed to do with Creation by the Bureaucracy, or a effective enough level of secrecy that they can practically get away with almost anything.

and have less power in general so they can do that less effectively.

In purely terms of personal power, I'd say your correct, but to be entirely honest the Chejop Kejak and The Scarlet Empress probably held more relative power over creation then any SINGLE solar ever did though I may be wrong, aside from possibly Merela for a short time before she faded into a figurehead, if only because you had 299 other solars fighting you for influence ASIDE from the other exalted who had their own voices in the deliberative, and plenty were likely to be millennia old essence 10 elders.

But this is somewhat of a tangent to the original point of whether the immaculate faith, the realm, and the bronze faction would use "Your actions in pursuit of what you believe is right actually ruined uncountable lives" considering they are in practical equally guilty of the accusation. If anything, their arguements would probably consist of why your cause was wrong, or why your very nature means your a threat to Creation.
 
Last edited:
(Paging Dr. Murderblender, the third Sidereal hitsquad is in room 4)
What the hell? I haven't even killed an army yet!
It's not my fault the name my mother gave me makes me a walking blasphemy, not that they should care about that.

When I said I had trouble imagining it, I really meant that. It's an impression I've gotten from the wider community of people who play RPGs.
You and I have a very different perception of the community, then.
 
Exalted is actually remarkably bad at this thing you say it's uniquely good at. It makes it extremely difficult for the GM to force the players to give a shit about the consequences of their actions. He can't make the paladin fall. He can't make the city guards arrest the PCs because they're untouchable God Kings. He can't even make people stay mad at the them!
ITs good in that it emphasizes temptation without immediate spankings and encourages you to go bad but punishes you for it. But in ways that can flow from the setting and not from the GM. The fallen paladin is a great example. Don't do bad because your powers stop working is a shitty moral that isn't real. Don't do bad or you'll sew the seeds of the rebellion that kills you IS. Moreover it doesn't feel involuntary. Lets not get into having the ability to declare this or that a sin absolutely to turn off a character and condemn them tends to limit tactics where "good" is always face in full force as to using guile and sneakiness.
I don't hate D&D paladins but they invite so much scorn because they are so demanding and it can easy to be swept up into tales of condemnation of abuse of righteousness or righteous abuse.
 
and at least 3 of the 5 people I've had in my Exalted game - in and out of character.
I do care, I'm just not able to take some of our game seriously. Half the time it seems like we're trying to run a 40k/Journey to the West /Romance of Three Kingdoms/Game of Thrones crossover, and the other half of the time it feels like we're doing the Divine Slapstick Comedy.

Has a jilted ex-lover that [SPOILERS] embarked on an epic quest of revenge, or does Princess the Deathknight merely want to rescue her Serpent-senpai from the nasty solars?
Is Candles as master manipulator who uses every weapon at her disposal including her good looks, or is she simply following the philosophy of Jack Harkness and flirting with everything, including her circlemates when they are disguised as the opposite sex?
When I said I had trouble imagining it, I really meant that. It's an impression I've gotten from the wider community of people who play RPGs.
In my experience, you get people who care about numbers first and foremost, and people who care about story first and foremost. The people who you'll have the most fun playing with are those that care about story. The numbers are there to help you tell a story.

The rules are there so that when I say "I hit you with my magic laser" and you say "No you don't, I have a magic shield" we can look at the rules and determine if I hit instead of arguing back and forth for twenty minutes.
 
I do care, I'm just not able to take some of our game seriously. Half the time it seems like we're trying to run a 40k/Journey to the West /Romance of Three Kingdoms/Game of Thrones crossover, and the other half of the time it feels like we're doing the Divine Slapstick Comedy.
I was actually talking about the game I run, not the one we play in, though I'm pretty sure all the players in @Tahu1809's game care about consequences and are trying to play decent people.
... It does get kind of ridiculous sometimes, though, huh?

Is Candles as master manipulator who uses every weapon at her disposal including her good looks, or is she simply following the philosophy of Jack Harkness and flirting with everything, including her circlemates when they are disguised as the opposite sex?
... Yes.
 
The thing is, even when the ST showed the consquences of me going Killfuck Soulshitter on armies of hapless mortals, I still couldn't bring myself to give a shit. It's really easy not to care what happens to mortals when their opinions, hopes and dreams are entirely irrelevant and the Zenith can reshape what defines them at a whim.

The only people I really cared about were other Exalts and even then, when they tried to talk to me about consequences, I tended to respond with a daiklave to the face.

As @notanautomaton noted, you just described the First Age shortly before the Usurpation. (Or Za Vant)

Most people I play with don't play that way, in large part because they are playing Age of Sorrows solars who have only exalted in the last decade and two and aren't totally jaded - who often still have living family members to care about.
 
... why would a Dragonblood try to cave your skull in for flying around on an agata? They fly around on agatae. Agatae are awesome.
Uh, Aleph, I was just trying to make little glib joke. And Agatae are awesome; I fell in love with thee species as a whole when I read the stuff on the Tin Orchird Academy of Lucent Wing. It is rather surprising how just a few paragraphs can make such an interesting character.
 
That's cheap. The problem is the setting proposes all these issues and then shorts on them in ways that make it clear "just foolin' have a generic edgey point"
This can come out with contentions like, homosexual relations being cool but no gay marriage. I don't mind this setting construction BUT highlights a valid question of is this alt or just YAOI/slash?
Or issues of people who supposedly have bad pasts not doing bad things we'd blame them for or ones who do hatable things things being SOOO easy to hate they roll into easy extraditable villainy with no self-reflection needed.

Example. Deseus is supposed to be a reflection on you. An example of what using your social powers or superior position on your spouse can result in with no brakes from the GM or society or the 'gods' on your antics.
Another example is that you as a Zenith can lie but not tell certain lies. Even that will at most result in annoying your patron, who is already kinda distant.

The Immaculate Faith is supposed to be a state religion with years of manipulation, influence, and so on that is built on lies. Most if not all material related to the IF is how they can give you what we often want from religion, moral authorisation and guidance, with no downsides. Their way empowers, so their advice is fine, or at least constructive and supportive, no issues to be had. On one level this is good, yeah less evil preachers I'm so proud of WW. On another, if they were more explicitly western you just *know* - and unlike with the sorcery school there seems a suspicious lack of- abundant brainwashings and other issues despite being explicitly the direct means of influence of the Sidereals as an institution in the Realm.
They OPEN with Peleps Deled and then promptly roll back to where he's an insane outlier.

That video points to what flaws I see in Exalted and why I dislike them.
 
Last edited:
This can come out with things like homosexual relations being cool but no gay marriage (not my opinion BUT a valid point to highlight is this alt or just YAOI/slash?)
What?
Or in issues of people who supposedly have bad pasts not doing bad things (I can't stand GSPs online, we were meticulously detailed a poetic hell.. .that is HELLish, but apparently they want Magic Mike only more stripper sessions) we'd blame them for
... What?!
 
That's cheap. The problem is the setting proposes all these issues and then shorts on them in ways that make it clear "just foolin' have a generic edgey point"
This can come out with things like homosexual relations being cool but no gay marriage (not my opinion BUT a valid point to highlight is this alt or just YAOI/slash?)
Or in issues of people who supposedly have bad pasts not doing bad things (I can't stand GSPs online, we were meticulously detailed a poetic hell.. .that is HELLish, but apparently they want Magic Mike only more stripper sessions) we'd blame them for
or ones who do being SOOO easy to hate they roll into easy extractable villainy with no self-reflection needed.

Deseus is supposed to be a reflection on you. What using your social powers or superior position on your spouse can result in with no brakes from the GM or society of the 'gods' pulling the plug on your antics. You as a Zenith can lie but not certain lies. And at most that will result in annoying your patron, who is already kinda distant.

The Imaculate Faith is supposed to be state religion with years of manipulation, influence, and so on built on lies. Most if not all material related is how they can give you what we often want from religion moral authorisation. Their way empowers, so their advice is fine, or at least constructive and supportive, no issues to be had. On one level, yeah less evil preachers, I'm so proud of WW. On another, if they were more explicitly western you just *know* and unlike with the sorcery school there seems a suspicious lack of brainwashings and other issues despite being explicitly the direct means of influence of the Sidereals as an institution.
They OPEN with Peleps Deled and then promptly roll back to where he's an insane outlier.

That villain points to what flaws I see in Exalted and why I dislike them.
Would you please learn how to fucking spell. All I see is a badly edited mess of words that makes less than no sense. If you're going to argue a point, could you at least make it fucking legible.

Not that you actually have a point.

Your little rant about the Immaculate Order shows that you have failed terribly at understanding one of the larger points of the setting; morality is subjective. The Immaculate Order brings peace and stability to the areas under its influence, with the Monks combating corrupt spirits, forcing gods to do their jobs as prescribed by their purview without seeking undue worship and they are one of the largest organisations in the setting that combats the schemes of Raksha and Demons and Ghosts. They run many charities that help the poor and disenfranchised out.

They are also part of a slaving taking empire, they are the ones who preach that slavery is a natural and just thing, they wipe out the local beliefs of the peoples they conquer and they strong arm gods who act outside of their official mandate even if they were a boon for the local area.

There aren't any real major villains in this setting who don't have a valid point of view; the Yozi were unlawfully ousted from power and Creation has suffered from the banishment of those who know how to tend to it the best, the Immaculate order is a legitimate force for good in the setting, while still being capable antagonists who need to be fought, and the Neverborn just want their pain to end.

And honestly, its one of the better parts of the setting.
 
Last edited:
(what's wrong with Exalted, WW stuff in general) applies here
You know watching this, I was honestly puzzled. I mean, Exalted, on the whole, does try for what he talks about here, and in a few places actually succeeds pretty well (1e more then 2e).

But then I remembered that Exalted fans, and White Wolf fans in general are extremely practiced at picking out what we like and discarding the rest. Honestly, its something of a good skill for Storytellers and players alike to master: its pretty much impossible for every supplement to be good. And as @Aleph once said, there is immense freedom in realizing that no, you don't have to adhere to stupid canon, or to canon you don't think fits your game/story.

Now all that said, Exalted is a role-playing game. Getting players on board with proper concepts for the game is the Storyteller's and players job more then the lines job. You hear a lot of crazy gonzo stories from Exalted because well... their fun. Fun to play, fun to tell. Same issue with a lot of WW games in general: a lot of people don't want to engage the darker themes, morality mechanics or the punishment mechanics. It takes a certain level of trust and working with the Storyteller to really get those working well, but when it works its a blast.

Speaking more generally about making people care about the setting and its people, one thing I've noticed about 2e in general is a distinct lack of NPCs. You tended to get a lot of very dry information about X place, but not a lot about any individual living there. There are books that bucked that trend, mostly the later 2e stuff, but for a long time all we got NPC wise were either spirits or Exalts, while the mortals were a faceless mass that's next to impossible to care about without your storyteller filling in all the blanks themselves (and how good your storyteller is at that will vary). Something I've found in general while running is that players tend to engage the roleplaying aspects massively more when they have NPC's to talk to then virtually anything else, so that was a significant problem. It's probably not a coincidence one of the things that I've pretty near seen universally praised from the 3e leak was the NPC write ups in the antagonists chapter: it gave us some idea who the people on the ground were, as opposed to nameless faces.

Also, I think if I was introducing someone to Exalted, I'd give them Caste Book Dawn to read through, then something like Scavenger Sons or the Core. Because that gives you on the ground context for a lot of what you'd see in those books, and not just the broad overview that makes it hard to care, as well as giving a good idea of the theme and tone of Exalted.
 
Last edited:
the Yozi were unlawfully ousted from power and Creation has suffered from the banishment of those who know how to tend to it the best
I dunno about "tend to it best" - that's what they made the gods for. It was markedly safer in the Time of Glories, though, simply because anything trying to attack or destroy it had the full force of 30-odd pissed-off Primordials to deal with, and an ishvara like Balor could maybe manage a mutual kill with a single fetich-soul like Ligier, and the fetich will respawn in a year and a day while the ishvara will be incinerated in nuclear green hatefire.
 
This discussion is very fascinating and I would like to see it continue, but I do have to say that one of the things that really struck me about Exalted was the contradiction inherent to it. It's as Ralson says, it wants to be a game of consequences, while also being a game where the player characters can do anything. It often seems afraid to actually have there be some hard consequences to the actions of a Solar. Even Gurren 'do the impossible see the invisible' Lagann had Spiral Nemesis.

Maybe the distinction is that it's not a game about consequences in the abstract, but a game about the consequences of power? So, you have an absurd amount of personal power to the point where it's a very short list of entities in all Creation that can gainsay you. Now what? Fine, you're almost guaranteed to succeed at whatever. What will victory cost you?
 
I dunno about "tend to it best" - that's what they made the gods for. It was markedly safer in the Time of Glories, though, simply because anything trying to attack or destroy it had the full force of 30-odd pissed-off Primordials to deal with, and an ishvara like Balor could maybe manage a mutual kill with a single fetich-soul like Ligier, and the fetich will respawn in a year and a day.
I meant in the sense that they could undo the worst damage easily, because they made Creation in the first place and are so extraordinarily powerful. But yes, I see your point, the Gods do have the best understanding of their domain. It is what they are made for after all, and the Primordials didn't want to take time off of their X-Box to fix a minor break in physics because some idiot of a God didn't know how to do their job.
 
Back
Top