You forgot to include that CBA also adds in Magical Material bonuses...
General Exalted Thread
Ah.
Missed that bit.
Point still stands though vis a vis the cost for an Alky; a functioning suit of CBA costing 8 dots for the suit + hearthstone 3 is likely suboptimal.
On Autocthonia, at least.
The hearthstone is an extra cost, yes, but I'd willing to pay it for all the extra features.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Every primordial world body has manses, they're just aspected to the elements of that particular primordial.
Elemental Cores provide the same function as hearthstones.
First off, I know DnD and d20 aren't the same thing. I was responding to this person:
So, perhaps you should direct your correction to this man, if you think it warrants one.
Secondly, I think you need some more clarification: Dnd and D20 are not The OGL. The former are game systems, the latter is a copyright license that was intended to allow people to make whatever game they wanted with the mechanics of d20(through the SRD, which is what was actually published under the OGL, not DnD). The former failing has almost no bearing on DnD(except in the sense that DnD no longer works along with the OGL in it's more recent editions).
This isn't actually true: per your words
True, you didn't care about the themes of the setting persay, but you certainly did care about the thematics of the game, and you wanted those thematics expressed in the setting(specifically, that you were a badass motherfucker killing people who tried to kill you). Which is precisely MJ12 Commando's argument in his first post: that d20 made any game based off it have the same thematics as d20, which is why the OGL failed as a concept.
Eh, sure, if I was a Solar.
As an Alchemical though?
It's arguably more effective to simply install Body Reweaving Matrix, grab your SHP and save the other five dots.
In that case, the only RPGs that are "bad" are things like RaHoWa and FATAL. You can have fun with things as blatantly broken as RIFTS or Synnibarr or TORG. If your defense is "but I was having fun!" it's true but it's also not helpful for when people are talking about game design. You can have fun with blatantly broken games, it's the benefit of having other humans there to interpret the rules.
...So you wanted to play D&D because of thematics, but because they're thematics you like, you pretend they aren't thematics.
They're products which people can have fun with, not products which sell themselves on "being fun." The question is, why should I buy X when I could make up my own game? The answer is generally how games handle their thematics. D20 OGL ends up making every game it handles D20 flavored, which is great if you want to play d20. But it doesn't simulate anything but D&D very well. The OGL is full of bad game design because very few of the people who use it actually understood how D20 handles a certain genre and starts imploding the moment you take it out of the genre. I bring it up because it's a great example of how universal mechanics are not particularly universal, same with GURPS.
Game systems have flavors. They illustrate themes. Changing the system can change how your setting feels. Running Exalted in D&D, with no fluff changes whatsoever, will massively change the feel of the game. Running Exalted in GURPS with no fluff changes will change the feel of the game. Mechanics play just as important a role in describing your world and what happens in it as anything else in the book, and probably more.
Which is why Spycraft and Mutants and Masterminds, two games which technically use the d20 OGL system, have systems which are not actually similar to D&D. Wonder why? Hint: Because good RPG systems understand the thematics of their genres and make sure their systems reflect what they want players to be doing.
I don't know what "actual defense" of my position is when your position is literally "there is no such thing as bad RPG design ever." It's so absurd I don't even need to attack it, just point out that by your logic RIFTS is an amazing game system because tons of people have "I had tons of fun with RIFTS" stories. Fuck, I have "I had fun with RIFTS" stories.
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Dynamesmouse
Bzzzzzz
Someone asked for this earlier. I found it in the wiki archive thing.
Urban Legend Agyiopathy
Cost: ; Mins: Essence 2, Malfeas 0; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: Nightmare Fugue Vigilance
Malfeas is the Demon City, and his halls echo with the clamour and conspiracy
of his subjects. To hide from him is to hide from the very walls of your house. The In-
fernal adds three automatic successes to any attempt to navigate a place deliberately
designed for habitation or use. These successes also apply to rolls to uncover infor-
mation about the place itself (including ongoing events within it). None of these rolls
require the usual sources; rather than looking up the history of Nexus in a library, or
shaking down contacts in a shady bar, or even looking for a map, the warlock simply
listens to the world. Snatches of distant conversation are channeled to his ears by
impossible acoustics, grati and street-signs line up to present him with clues, and
omens intuit themselves from brick and mortar.
If the Infernal has Viridian Legend Exoskeleton active, characters who can read
the glowing Old Realm etched into the brass benet from a three-die bonus on any
roll this Charm would enhance (which does not stack with this Charm's main bonus);
Malfeas knows all cities are but lesser re ections of himself, their legends subordinated
into his own.
Source: Revlid
Mean Streets Curriculum
Cost: ; Mins: Essence 2, Malfeas 0; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: Urban Legend Agyiopathy
A city's lessons are scribed into its very streets, and those who walk them
can learn harsh truths all the green day. This Charm allows the Infernal to treat
areas deliberately designed for habitation or use as tutors in any resonant Attribute,
Ability or Specialty. He might treat an old dockyard as a tutor for Sail or Craft, or
receive training in Charisma, Intelligence, Performance, Occult or Medicine by the
funeral-city of Sijan. Linguistics is generally an option, provided the new dot would
allow the Infernal to learn the dominant language of that city or town. The resonant
abilities for the Brass City itself are considered to be Strength, Stamina, Charisma,
Resistance, Survival, Performance, Occult, and Craft. "Urban" specialties are always
considered to be resonant, such as city-planning (Bureaucracy), urban warfare (War),
parkour (Athletics), or street-dance (Performance). To be trained in this manner, the
Infernal wanders the streets and halls of that area, suering its lessons and drinking
in its wisdom.
At Essence 3+, the warlock halves the training time for any trait trained in this
manner, and can convey the full eects of this Charm on any character he wishes by
tutoring them for an hour in the lessons of a single valid area; for the rest of the week,
they benet from this Charm while training in that area. The Infernal may tutor a
maximum Magnitude up to (Essence 2) characters at once in this way, rounded down.
It is unknown just how the demons in question coaxed the Devil-Tyrant into training
them, but the Tarnished Thorn still dominates sections of Malfeas to this day, their
leaders reaping the benets of the most nightmarish week of their lives.
Source: Revlid
Urban Legend Agyiopathy
Cost: ; Mins: Essence 2, Malfeas 0; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: Nightmare Fugue Vigilance
Malfeas is the Demon City, and his halls echo with the clamour and conspiracy
of his subjects. To hide from him is to hide from the very walls of your house. The In-
fernal adds three automatic successes to any attempt to navigate a place deliberately
designed for habitation or use. These successes also apply to rolls to uncover infor-
mation about the place itself (including ongoing events within it). None of these rolls
require the usual sources; rather than looking up the history of Nexus in a library, or
shaking down contacts in a shady bar, or even looking for a map, the warlock simply
listens to the world. Snatches of distant conversation are channeled to his ears by
impossible acoustics, grati and street-signs line up to present him with clues, and
omens intuit themselves from brick and mortar.
If the Infernal has Viridian Legend Exoskeleton active, characters who can read
the glowing Old Realm etched into the brass benet from a three-die bonus on any
roll this Charm would enhance (which does not stack with this Charm's main bonus);
Malfeas knows all cities are but lesser re ections of himself, their legends subordinated
into his own.
Source: Revlid
Mean Streets Curriculum
Cost: ; Mins: Essence 2, Malfeas 0; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: Urban Legend Agyiopathy
A city's lessons are scribed into its very streets, and those who walk them
can learn harsh truths all the green day. This Charm allows the Infernal to treat
areas deliberately designed for habitation or use as tutors in any resonant Attribute,
Ability or Specialty. He might treat an old dockyard as a tutor for Sail or Craft, or
receive training in Charisma, Intelligence, Performance, Occult or Medicine by the
funeral-city of Sijan. Linguistics is generally an option, provided the new dot would
allow the Infernal to learn the dominant language of that city or town. The resonant
abilities for the Brass City itself are considered to be Strength, Stamina, Charisma,
Resistance, Survival, Performance, Occult, and Craft. "Urban" specialties are always
considered to be resonant, such as city-planning (Bureaucracy), urban warfare (War),
parkour (Athletics), or street-dance (Performance). To be trained in this manner, the
Infernal wanders the streets and halls of that area, suering its lessons and drinking
in its wisdom.
At Essence 3+, the warlock halves the training time for any trait trained in this
manner, and can convey the full eects of this Charm on any character he wishes by
tutoring them for an hour in the lessons of a single valid area; for the rest of the week,
they benet from this Charm while training in that area. The Infernal may tutor a
maximum Magnitude up to (Essence 2) characters at once in this way, rounded down.
It is unknown just how the demons in question coaxed the Devil-Tyrant into training
them, but the Tarnished Thorn still dominates sections of Malfeas to this day, their
leaders reaping the benets of the most nightmarish week of their lives.
Source: Revlid
I believe his/her argument is more along the lines of mechanics should facilitate players have fun over keeping up with themes., so a game making simplifications for the sake of fun is an acceptable sacrifice. He/she wants to play at being a "badass motherfucker," and it is irrelevant to him/her what the themes of the setting are, as long as the mechanics allow for that to happen fairly easily.
Most players in my experience rarely concern themselves with the themes of a system beyond giving them some mechanics to play with. While some serious roleplayers do want a system reinforces particularly themes, most of them that are that serious tend to view the system as getting in their way. Just my own personal experience on how other answer that question.
This is a bad argument. "Fun" is necessarily subjective. A well-designed system may not be "fun" simply because the players can't click with it. This is rare but it happens (c.f. D&D 4e). Poorly designed systems may be 'fun' if you have the right crowd of people and the social contract to not fuck with the system in too awful a way (c.f. oWoD). What you can only really do is design a good system. And systems are generally not good or bad in some vacuum.
For the most obvious example horror RPGs basically have system needs opposed to literally almost any other form of RPG, because horror requires disempowering the players. Trying to play a game of high-action vampire hunting in Monsterhearts or Call of Cthulhu is probably going to lead to literal tears.
If you're playing Exalted as a dungeon crawl loot 'em up, you're probably better served by finding a system that primarily supports that kind of gameplay. This isn't even snobbishness. This is "you are trying to take a square peg and ram it into a round hole and wondering why people might disagree that catering to you is a good idea."
Because the way the system is designed leads you into conflicts which are bigger than dungeon crawls and ends up making you into empire-builders and king-makers instead of just murderhobos.
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Fun maybe subjective but it is fairly easy to tell when certain mechanics will end up frustrating players regardless of how much sense they make the theme of the game. So the argument that not frustrating or boring the player over staying true to theme is a fairly valid. A good system should be fun to play as well. A horror game isn't going to be played by anyone if it isn't fun. There is a reason the Call of Cthulu and most horror games let you have a slight chance of victory even though thematically you should always just lose. It is because for most people, it is boring to always just lose.
What does that have to do with the why people buy RPGs? D&D mechanics get re-fluffed for many types of stories its system isn't good for in my experience. People still buy such systems because they don't care about mechanics reinforcing themes.
Yes, which isn't the argument being made. The argument isn't "these mechanics would be unfun." The argument being made is "the game is fun already, why should we change anything?" To which I say "fun doesn't actually mean much." Also, most horror movies have the protagonists win, so your argument is actually based on not understanding the genre. Like, in basically 100% of slasher movies the main character defeats the monster eventually. In the Cthulhu stories the main characters tend to go mad and/or die in the process but they generally do succeed. So no, the theme of a horror game isn't "you instantly lose." It's disempowering, not hopeless.
There's a strong argument that the OGL proliferation and the people refluffing D&D mechanics for stories its system isn't good at is part of the reason why the tabletop RPG market blew up. Because instead of having to make your own system and put thought in it, a lot of the small or middle-sized RPG makers literally just did OGL and called it a day, leading to a bunch of low-quality products that failed, leading to the general market shrinking and now literally only the Big Two surviving as profitable RPGs (it was originally the Big Three, D&D, WW, and GURPS, but GURPS is now literally a vanity project that breaks even, with SJGames primarily surviving on its Munchkin property).
The indie RPG revival being heralded by well-designed, thematically appropriate systems like FATE and *World lends some credence to OGL being one of the causes of the RPG industry collapse. Although FATE is vulnerable to the same OGL overproliferation-people keep mindlessly suggesting it for any genre despite how it only works for a subset of them.
Fun means a lot. Especially for a game. Beyond that, the argument made by Omicron was to explain why a particular design decision was made. It was considered more fun than the alternative that was thought of. Now EarthScorpion has pointed out another alternative that is both fun and thematically appropriate, but that was apparently not thought of at the time.
It is a pretty big theme in the Cthulhu Mythos that humanity doesn't matter, protagonists are ultimately doomed to insanity/failure, and any victory is fleeting. The game changes that because that isn't fun. By theme, you should be allowed to struggle all you want and then lose in the end. The game though does allow for victory as a concession. Victory with cost perhaps but victory nonetheless. Slasher horror is a very very different genre than the existential horror of the Cthulhu Mythos.
Again, what does this have to do with why people buy games? I'd be happy to discuss the history of the RPG market if you wish to discuss it, but that doesn't really have anything to do with why people buy TRPG books. Most people buy them, in my experience, because they have heard of the system and want to play an TRPG. The themes of the mechanics never crosses their minds. Afterwards, they simply prefer to buy refluffs of the system they are familiar with, when they want to play a different genre. If your experience is different, or you have data that disagrees with my experience, then feel free to argue/show it. Telling me about things I already know is a bit pointless.
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Yes, you know the hypothetical "you can swap background dots worth of stuff" thing? It was suggested before @EarthScorpion. I pointed out that a requisition mechanic would work quite well in my first post on this topic.
Yes, victory is fleeting. Eventually the world is doomed. But the world isn't doomed today. You seem to be unwilling or incapable of
It has plenty to do with why people don't buy games. People don't buy games because ignoring how mechanics impact thematics leads to shitty low-quality game systems and games which feel subtly wrong and you can't figure out why the game feels wrong and weird because you aren't consciously thinking about mechanics. Yes, you seem to have a lot of experience with grogs who basically stick to one system forever, but the RPG market is not generally made of grogs, which is why OGL didn't lead to total D&D dominance.
I'm still going to note that the OGL products which have become successful in and of themselves, M&M/Spycraft, understood mechanics and thematics and both do a very good job of modifying the core d20 system to reflect the genre they set their games in. So you know, even just looking at OGL the successful products are the ones which understood that mechanics have to reinforce thematics or else your RPG is going to feel off and people aren't likely to buy it unless they're grogs (and grogs are a fickle, easily angered market that is toxic and drives business away).
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Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Dude, you guys are off topic. Also, I'm pretty due the whole disagreement was originally just people just not using the same definition of the word "themes" or "thematics."
well that and the usual backlash against white wolf community's well know penchant for dissing on D&D out of arrogance and ingroup bias.
well that and the usual backlash against white wolf community's well know penchant for dissing on D&D out of arrogance and ingroup bias.
EarthScorpion went into actual detail about the matter and how to implement it. Thus, I give him credit on actually providing a solution that works beyond just suggesting an alternative.
This is incomplete thought, but I imagine I can fill in the rest. My response would be that the having a remotely satisfying victory at all goes against the themes of Cthulhu Mythos.
Again, these grogs as you are choosing to call them, make up a majority of TRPG players in my experience. Do you have any data that says something else or a different experience? The only data I could find supports my position, but is over 10 years old. As for the games you listed as being successful, they are also fun to play. Most people when stating why they play them, will probably tell you that they play them because they are fun, rather than their appreciation for how the themes and mechanics reinforce each other.
Edit:
True enough. I'll stop here.
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azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
I actually ended my last post on the topic by pointing out that it's no longer discussing Exalted, and thus doesn't belong here.
Why is it a bad argument? I never argued against themes, simply that they're not the purpose of RPGs. I argued that the purpose is fun, and all other parts of the RPG are vehicles for that purpose. Themes are a way to have fun. Lack of themes are a way to have fun. You don't need to get a system with the right "themes" as long as whatever system you're using is fun, because obviously that system works.
I intentionally ignored mechanical balance, because you can have fun with a system you bend and break by habit (see also: I had fun playing DnD 3.5e). I was not addressing mechanical design concepts, I was addressing the absolute core of gaming. If you don't design a game to be enjoyed, you're doing it wrong. If you don't enjoy playing a system, you're doing it wrong (playing the wrong system counts as doing it wrong).
Every. Single. Other. Thing. Is secondary.
OGL provides a vehicle for fun, ergo it was a success, even if devs used it due to familiarity and availability when a different system would have been a better vehicle for the type of fun they wanted to provide, and even if it had a lot of screwy mechanics. The games that weren't fun because they tried to force thematics the mechanics opposed were failures.
If you want to continue this, let's stop shitting up the Exalted thread with off-topic posts and take it to fucking PMs.
What. My first post on this subject:
An actual implementation of "Alchemicals use state-owned artifacts and don't carry their gold plated boner cars into dungeon crawls when someone else needs a gold plated boner car to win a race against Dick Dastardly the Infernal" was like, done 2 pages ago. Or hell, @Aaron Peori already talks about it in his post.
The Arsenal background, something that existed before, was his suggestion. Alchemicals don't get Artifact, they get Arsenal, so they can lock and load with essence cannons when they're going on a bug hunt but if they're being pop stars they can get guitarklaives or whatever, as needed. You have a strange definition of "went into actual detail."
Yes, you did say something to that effect. Of course, the fact that you saw fit to continue the discussion in the same post kinda negates the whole effect: if you wanted to move the conversation elsewhere, you could either do it or simply stop responding. Simply contining it as is and then ending with a passive aggressive plea that others do it so that you can get the last word in just makes you look silly.
Doing it a second time (while protesting your virtue no less) makes it even worse.
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Omnicron already has made an argument against using Arsenal as Aaron Peori suggested. That was at the beginning of this little debate, and the start of the "fun argument."
EarthScorpion suggested using something akin to the Abyssal's Liege, or the Infernal's Infamy background as a solution and not Arsenal. He also didn't just mention an idea but also stated what changes should be made to make it work, and provided an example of doing similar reworking on something else. That is actual detail compared to what your own post provided.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
For Vehicles anyway, I assume that they are theoretically on the artifact scale so people could in theory do things like 'ace skyship pilot' or similar from creation, having some control over their vessel. I admit that when I took an artifact 5 vehicle for the game that unfortunately seems to have died, it was because it was a game set in the west, so I wanted a vehicle that in some ways was like Serenity in how it was part of the crew.
Well that and I admit I took one look at the Vehicle creation rules and started going squee!
Simply because someone has a rebuttal does not mean that the solution does not work. In fact, the rebuttal Omicron brought up is equally valid to EarthScorpion's suggestion so if it disqualifies us it disqualifies him too.
You are spending a whole lot of effort trying to pretend that we didn't give "detail" by nitpicking our posts and assuming wordcount in your initial post is the sole thing that makes your post a contribution solely so you can say that your side won and the other side has no meaningful input. It's dishonest and rather disgusting.
Charms are not artifacts, which is something the books keep telling you. Exalt A cannot use Exalt B's charms. If they could, do you really think that wouldn't be what happens? I also suspect that this is primarily a game balance thing. The first and earliest look at Alchemicals, in the Exalted 1e campaign hooks thread of the Locust Crusade, had Alchemicals only buying Charm slots and being able to put any charms they qualified for in those slots. This would, however, make Alchemicals omnicompetent super-Exalts capable of filling any niche at an adequate level.
Because that would kind of defeat the point of playing anything else in a mixed game and make niche protection hard in a single-splat game, this was probably nixed.
So some of the most elite have access to personal property like pet rats (which don't take up many resources) in one nation, and another nation has an economy which is similar to the Soviet Union (which also had the Ruble). That doesn't exactly seem like 'strong property rights' to me.
Meanwhile, in strongly capitalist nations which heavily value freedom and personal expression, like America or Europe, try to personally own a nuclear missile or a F-22, even as a captain of industry or a high-ranking government official.
And that's the cost-equivalent. I vaguely recall Artifacts if they're ever sold sell for Resources equivalents of 2-3 dots above what their rating is, so that 3 dot Grand Daiklaive is the literal equivalent of a multimillion dollar war machine like a modern main battle tank or attack helicopter in wealth. That they're permanently assigning to you because of PR even when it could be on the frontlines. Seems to me that getting more use out of it would be far more valuable than any vague PR benefits from you having the same Daiklaive.
The more I think of it, the more I think that Alchemicals should have the Solar artifact background (without any double cost penalties for 3+ maybe if we're being super generous) to represent how they can get their Own Personal Property that will never be taken away, and then a Requisitions background which is much more efficient for mass-produced artifacts when they need it.
So you can have a trademark thing, which they reluctantly give you and let you keep forever because you're the six million talent (wo)man, but it's reluctant and otherwise you're going to have to go to the armory and gear up, which means you need to convince the state why you need that Thousand-Forged Dragon for a pop concert. You can have your toys, but you're expected to primarily be drawing from a large communal toybox which doesn't and won't have your personal favoritest toys in it but will have lots of cool ones which are kind of neat.
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