Actually for the vast majority of Alchemicals it does not make sense for them to have access to a vast store of personal artifacts. They technically don't own anything, after all. Those vast troves of artifacts all over the place belong to the State and should be doled out to the Alchemicals based on their Class and mission. Why the designers decided to go with the really weird use of an expanded Artifact background instead of the much more elegant Arsenal background or a similar rating determining ease of access to resources is something I'll never understand.

Having Charms be limited to one character makes sense, but if you're on semi-permanent loan to the local Soldaties in charge of architectural engineering that fancy Daiklave is a waste of resources sitting around in a locker with your name on it. It's going to be loaned out to the Alchemicals going on deep patrol to clear out Void Heresy insurgents in the tunnels. Especially considering that the entirety of Autocthonia is facing a critical shortage of magical materials. They're not going to let you deck out your (government owned) apartment with a bunch of stuff that can be better used by others.
 
That is noted in the text of the expanded background Aaron. The reason they do that is because it's better for propaganda purposes, although if you do have a high end, very useful artifact just lieing around it's likely that the Sodalities would tell you to either start doing stuff that need it or give it to someone who can actually use it.
 
That is noted in the text of the expanded background Aaron. The reason they do that is because it's better for propaganda purposes, although if you do have a high end, very useful artifact just lieing around it's likely that the Sodalities would tell you to either start doing stuff that need it or give it to someone who can actually use it.

Remember: "But canon" isn't a proper response to "Canon is stupid and here's why."
 
Except that in this case it's not actually stupid.

No, it is stupid.

Because nothing about propaganda requires you to actually have those artifacts on demand. Sure, they're going to cover you in bling for the proles, but it would be appropriate bling for the occasion and then you can expand your bling to multiple alchemicals at once. There is no in canon reason they wouldn't be keeping all that stuff in a warehouse to lend out on a per need basis, not even propaganda purposes. The rule solely exists because some guy said "magitech exalted should obviously have more stuff, right?"

You're just flailing around trying to justify a terrible interpretation of a bad rule. If your ST is letting you get away with getting three times the number of artifacts you should be, shame on him.

Heck, if you're letting players buy artifacts for 1xp per dot than you are allowing them access to stuff which makes alchemical charms obsolete. Like, all of them.

Why on Earth would you spend 10xp to get a Personal Gravity Manipulation Device when I can spend 6xp to get a pair of Perfected Boots, a Jump Harness and a Belt of Aerial Mobility and now I can run faster, jump farther and fucking fly?

Why install a bunch of healing Charms when i can get a Resplendent Satchel of healing for 4xp and be able to do everything a variety of healing Charm can do all at once?

And none of this stuff eats up your previous Personal pool either, because you can attune it all out of Peripheral Essence.

The only things Charms do better is Excellencies and Perfect Defenses. That's it, really.

I'd much rather have players pay actual cost for artifacts, because then they are encouraged to spend 10xp on a single Charm rather than two five dot artifacts holy shit.
 
Why on Earth would you spend 10xp to get a Personal Gravity Manipulation Device when I can spend 6xp to get a pair of Perfected Boots, a Jump Harness and a Belt of Aerial Mobility and now I can run faster, jump farther and fucking fly?
I can see a significant flaw with that argument.

PGMA: Installation cost 1m, 4m per scene
vs
Perfected Boots: 1m attunement
Jump Harness: 2m per scene
Belt of Aerial Mobility: 3m attunement, 3m per scene
Total: 4 motes committed, 5 motes per scene.

I'm no expert, but mote economy seems to lie squarely in favor of the Charm user.
As does the lack of Repair costs.
And the fact that the Charm user can now equip other artefacts(like God-Kicking Boots) instead.
 
Last edited:
I can see a significant flaw with that argument.

PGMA: Installation cost 1m, 4m per scene
vs
Perfected Boots: 1m attunement
Jump Harness: 2m per scene
Belt of Aerial Mobility: 3m attunement, 3m per scene
Total: 4 motes committed, 5 motes per scene.

I'm no expert, but mote economy seems to lie squarely in favor of the Charm user.
As does the lack of Repair costs.
And the fact that the Charm user can now equip other artefacts(like God-Kicking Boots) instead.

Man, Savant is dirt cheap, who cares about Repair?

And once again, flight. About a hundred times better than "walk on walls and double jumping distance". Just the Belt alone outdoes the PGMA. Which, for 9xp and increased attunement cost is almost worth it. But for 3xp? It's better in every way.

Plus all those artifacts give a lot of other benefits that your single Charm will not, more than offsetting the attunement costs, as they make you much more versatile. Even with the TIE, you can swap them out in a few minutes as opposed to hours at a Vats and can carry them around in a bag for when they are needed.

And, once again: A single Charm or two five dot artifacts.
 
Well, it depends on the bling.

Like, Nasu made an entire series about heroes with particular, individual legendary weapons. If Flawless Clockwork Adjutant makes a name for himself with his sword that cuts at five miles' distance, and he shows up two months later and he's lost his sword, there's going to be a bunch of fans that are worried and disappointed.
 
Why install a bunch of healing Charms when i can get a Resplendent Satchel of healing for 4xp and be able to do everything a variety of healing Charm can do all at once?
Because Body Reweaving Matrix works in combat, has a 1 mote installation cost, and doesn't even require that you be conscious?
As opposed to the Satchel requiring 5 motes of attunement, a decent Medicine rating, and a Level 2 Wood or Solar Hearthstone?

And once again, flight. About a hundred times better than "walk on walls and double jumping distance". Just the Belt alone outdoes the PGMA. Which, for 9xp and increased attunement cost is almost worth it. But for 3xp? It's better in every way.
Not flight; walking on air.
Not the same thing.

Flight requires Wings of the Raptor or Transcendent Phoenix Pinions.
Or Air Dragon Armor+ level 2 hearthstone.
Plus all those artifacts give a lot of other benefits that your single Charm will not, more than offsetting the attunement costs, as they make you much more versatile. Even with the TIE, you can swap them out in a few minutes as opposed to hours at a Vats and can carry them around in a bag for when they are needed.
How?
The artefacts you have cited do no such thing.
You need to go up to 4 or 5 dot to find artefacts that do anything outside their primary role.
And, once again: A single Charm or two five dot artifacts.
The way I understand it works for an Essence 2 Alchemical, they have bought out most of their Charms at chargen anyway, and don't have space to install them all.

Nor are five dot artefacts exactly off-the-shelf devices, and their availability is supposedly ST fiat, unlike for charms.
You don't exactly walk into Exalted Mart mid-game and walk out with a Daiklave of Conquest because you have the requisite XP.
Not even in relatively high-tech Autochtonia.
 
Last edited:
Actually for the vast majority of Alchemicals it does not make sense for them to have access to a vast store of personal artifacts. They technically don't own anything, after all. Those vast troves of artifacts all over the place belong to the State and should be doled out to the Alchemicals based on their Class and mission. Why the designers decided to go with the really weird use of an expanded Artifact background instead of the much more elegant Arsenal background or a similar rating determining ease of access to resources is something I'll never understand.

Having Charms be limited to one character makes sense, but if you're on semi-permanent loan to the local Soldaties in charge of architectural engineering that fancy Daiklave is a waste of resources sitting around in a locker with your name on it. It's going to be loaned out to the Alchemicals going on deep patrol to clear out Void Heresy insurgents in the tunnels. Especially considering that the entirety of Autocthonia is facing a critical shortage of magical materials. They're not going to let you deck out your (government owned) apartment with a bunch of stuff that can be better used by others.
Because "fun."

The reason is pretty much that players like having their own, personal magic gear, and that making it "not actually yours, could be taken away" is just frustrating. Backgrounds are designed first and foremost for the sake of players' enjoyment, not the kick people get out of things "making sense" on an abstract, non-playability based level.

I've spent months of game without using a given Artifact of mine because there was no motive for using it. When that motive appeared, it was cool and rewarding. If you'd taken my Artifact because "well you're not using it," given that the only person with the power to take away Backgrounds is the one who decides which challenges you encounter, and thus which of your Artifacts will be useful, aka the ST, I would have laughed in your face.
 
There is also the option of having every player return all their artifacts (outside of those that have become part of their legend) at the end of a major plotline and the game enters downtime, and then allow them to cash in the freed up dots as they see fit when downtime ends and they requisition new equipment.
 
Because "fun."

The reason is pretty much that players like having their own, personal magic gear, and that making it "not actually yours, could be taken away" is just frustrating. Backgrounds are designed first and foremost for the sake of players' enjoyment, not the kick people get out of things "making sense" on an abstract, non-playability based level.

I've spent months of game without using a given Artifact of mine because there was no motive for using it. When that motive appeared, it was cool and rewarding. If you'd taken my Artifact because "well you're not using it," given that the only person with the power to take away Backgrounds is the one who decides which challenges you encounter, and thus which of your Artifacts will be useful, aka the ST, I would have laughed in your face.

So Alchemicals are restricted from getting the Artifact background without paying Bonus Points or something, so players can have their trademark bling if they really want to. Instead, they get the Requisitions Background, which lets them Requisition up to X dots of mass-produced artifacts per dot and you can switch it out when you have access. As an Alchemical you have tons of mass produced shit to do your job better. That's what it's for.
 
So Alchemicals are restricted from getting the Artifact background without paying Bonus Points or something, so players can have their trademark bling if they really want to. Instead, they get the Requisitions Background, which lets them Requisition up to X dots of mass-produced artifacts per dot and you can switch it out when you have access. As an Alchemical you have tons of mass produced shit to do your job better. That's what it's for.
Yeah, sure, you could do that.

But Artifacts are fun and Autochthonia has a fuckton of them compared to Creation, so instead Alchemicals get access to a beefed up Artifact Background that gives them several Artifacts. This in turn is balanced by the problem over-atunement causes them.

There's no downside to this approach, no real problem it causes. Sure, you could do it differently, but your approach is just... complicating things for no real reason? It's not bad, just unnecessary.
 
Yeah, sure, you could do that.

But Artifacts are fun and Autochthonia has a fuckton of them compared to Creation, so instead Alchemicals get access to a beefed up Artifact Background that gives them several Artifacts. This in turn is balanced by the problem over-atunement causes them.

There's no downside to this approach, no real problem it causes. Sure, you could do it differently, but your approach is just... complicating things for no real reason? It's not bad, just unnecessary.

If you're saying thematics are unimportant, I think you're tacking against a lot of White Wolf design and why people still play it instead of, say, d20.

Really, the Big Two systems that remain (Storyteller and D20) are opposites in many ways, but mostly in their one core conceit. In d20, every game literally bends its thematics to end up being d20-flavored, while Storyteller puts its rules subservient to the setting thematics. "Beefed up artifact background" makes less sense than "can swap out your artifact loadout as long as you have good cause to do so" for communist cyberpunk Autochthonia.
 
If you're saying thematics are unimportant, I think you're tacking against a lot of White Wolf design and why people still play it instead of, say, d20.
Oh man you're pulling the "go back to d20 filthy rollplayer" card on me? Really? That's hilarious.

There is no really thematic issue here. You... basically conjured it out of nowhere. Autochthonia is a place crawling with industrial aesthetics, Artifacts and magitech. They are, by far, more abundant than even the Realm - which is the other splat to get a beefed up Artifact background. Providing easy access to multiple Artifacts to the Champions of Autochthonia produces no thematic dissonance, no incoherence.

The Alchemical Exalted are heroes and champions. They serve the people of their nations, fulfill a duty, but they also receive recognition, status, a degree of autonomy. They are not bureaucratic agent whose superior eye suspiciously and who get their Artifacts removed because they don't use them enough or Employee #247 in Cubicle B needs it more. They get stuff.
 
Oh man you're pulling the "go back to d20 filthy rollplayer" card on me? Really? That's hilarious.

Considering that you're implying it's unimportant for mechanics to illustrate thematics, which is basically what the OGL suggested, I think pointing out that you're missing a huge point is important and dismissing it as accusing you of being a "rollplayer" (instead of this being a top-level design decision) is both missing the point and The OGL was a hilarious failure, BTW, because the main role of RPG mechanics is to illustrate thematics and also arguably blew up the RPG industry because people didn't realize that sometimes a mediocre or bad system that works with the themes of your game is better than a good system which does not actually work with the themes at all)

You see, I don't think if a system works, there's a difference between roleplayer and 'rollplayer.' A system that works means the roleplayer makes a character which looks like the optimized rollplayer fuck-the-fluff-give-me-the-shinies character and works almost as well.

There is no really thematic issue here. You... basically conjured it out of nowhere. Autochthonia is a place crawling with industrial aesthetics, Artifacts and magitech. They are, by far, more abundant than even the Realm - which is the other splat to get a beefed up Artifact background. Providing easy access to multiple Artifacts to the Champions of Autochthonia produces no thematic dissonance, no incoherence.

The Realm is an imperialist society which takes a lot from both the meritocracies and corruption of ancient empires like China and Rome, where the nobles (the Dragonbloods) owned tons of shit. Autochthonia is a hostile environment where almost everyone is stuck in communal conditions with very explicit Soviet-style aesthetics of propaganda and property ownership (basically none outside), and answer to the people instead of ruling the people. Alchemicals are, of literally all the splats, the one which has the least reason to have constant, unlimited access to any artifacts-I'd argue that as a fully thematic statement you could argue they literally should not have access to Artifact period. Do you give a F-22 nuclear weapons all the time, or just when you need something nuked?

You know what makes the communist-industrial thematics of Autochthonia look really hypocritical? Their Champions being permanent ownership of the equivalent of billions of dollars of equipment even when it's literally sitting around gathering dust because they're acting as an architectural assistant instead of stabbing people in a suit of power armor.

This isn't a huge issue, you're right. It's not a game-breaker, but @Aaron Peori's points are more convincing than yours. Especially when the sig characters are like, generally shown to be not decked out with 15 dots of artifacts. :p

The Alchemical Exalted are heroes and champions. They serve the people of their nations, fulfill a duty, but they also receive recognition, status, a degree of autonomy. They are not bureaucratic agent whose superior eye suspiciously and who get their Artifacts removed because they don't use them enough or Employee #247 in Cubicle B needs it more. They get stuff.

Yes, they're heroes and champions of a nation. They are formally in the chain of command, they are required to answer to superiors, and they exist in a world where the concept of private ownership is extremely limited. They "get stuff." Sure. That stuff should be stuff that's relevant to the mission.

If you have a Daiklaive that shoots lasers and transforms into a rocket-propelled hovercycle and you're going on a pop star tour, and someone else needs a rocket propelled hovercycle, it should very much be "Here, have all this cool stuff related to your current job in exchange for someone else being able to use your rocket propelled lasercycle sword." It's not "your superiors eye you suspiciously." It's "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need."
 
Last edited:
If you're saying thematics are unimportant, I think you're tacking against a lot of White Wolf design and why people still play it instead of, say, d20.
The problem with that interpretation is that Alchemicals are fairly explicitly expected to subvert some of the thematics of their setting.
I quote:
The Alchemical Exalted embody a strange duality.
On the one hand, they are exemplars of their society, its
continuity and its history. There are more powerful, ancient
Alchemicals in Autochthonia than the elder membership of
all of Creation's Celestial Exalted combined. These venerable
patropoli and metropoli have not simply watched the
history of their world unfold before them, they have shaped
its course. In their younger days, they were epic adventurers,
fighters and engineers, both social and technological.
In their sessile forms, they make up the literal landscape
of Autochthonian life. Their younger comrades contain
memory-echoes of Autochthonian heroism stretching back
to the beginning of the Great Maker's exile.

Indeed, mortals were allowed access to the secret of
Alchemical Exaltation for the exclusive purpose of bringing
forth Champions from among their ranks, to fight and labor
and perform works of genius on their behalf. The Chosen of
the Machine God are engines of the state, the ultimate heroes
and defenders of their home nation and society.

On the other hand, Alchemicals stand half a step outside
that society. In a world where unceasing, absolute order is a
requirement for continued survival, Alchemicals are trusted
with Autochthonia's most dangerous commodity—freedom.
These Exalted are given incredible latitude to operate without
orders or supervision, to take matters into their own
hands and to cross the boundaries of Autochthonia's rigid
class-based society.
They are expected and allowed to be
eccentric, passionate, unique and spontaneous—all traits
that are normally discouraged and suppressed in the name
of unity and survival.
Wary Alchemicals understand that
unrestrained freedom begets chaos and that chaos begets
death in the Realm of Brass and Shadow. Others cast caution
to the wind, unhesitatingly reaching out to grasp tomorrow.
Both transform the lives they touch.
MoEP: Alchemicals pg 80.
I will agree that the canon Exalts we see never do seem to be bedecked in artifacts, but I will point out that characters like Fair-Spoken Rishi maintain martial artifacts despite having transitioned into diplomacy and policy.
 
Last edited:
Considering that you're implying it's unimportant for mechanics to illustrate thematics, which is basically what the OGL suggested, I think pointing out that you're missing a huge point is important and dismissing it as accusing you of being a "rollplayer" (instead of this being a top-level design decision) is both missing the point and The OGL was a hilarious failure, BTW, because the main role of RPG mechanics is to illustrate thematics and also arguably blew up the RPG industry because people didn't realize that sometimes a mediocre or bad system that works with the themes of your game is better than a good system which does not actually work with the themes at all)

You see, I don't think if a system works, there's a difference between roleplayer and 'rollplayer.' A system that works means the roleplayer makes a character which looks like the optimized rollplayer fuck-the-fluff-give-me-the-shinies character and works almost as well.
This is an elitist attitude that I disagree with, but the line of discussion isn't relevant to this thread.
What you enjoy is not what others enjoy. Don't call a system's design bad because it doesn't pander to your preferences. Not everyone wants to roleplay.
 
Considering that you're implying it's unimportant for mechanics to illustrate thematics
In your head, perhaps. I can't really take the rest of your tangent seriously (mostly because it comes out of nowhere). The MoEP already answers this whole issue, anyway:

"It is worth remembering that artifacts, like everything else, are considered state property. This includes even artifacts crafted by an Alchemical's own hands. "I made this, so it's mine" has never been a sanctioned mode of thought in Autochthonia. Still, players need not fear their artifacts being summarily revoked without good reason. Centuries of propaganda efforts have shown that Champions are more strongly identifiable to the Populat when consistently depicted wielding the same storied weapons and armor, or deploying their own cunning inventions on behalf of the state."

Alchemicals don't "own" Artifacts, but are allowed to retain them indefinitely for two reasons - image-building, and "not taking away the player's toys."

This is probably a good moment to point out that it is entirely possible that the Artifacts you take for your Alchemical characters will, in fact, only remain in their possession for a limited duration; the scope of a given Alchemical game is, in all likelihood, far inferior to the scope of the actual activity of an Alchemical. Even if you play a strange game that disregards the sense of urgency of the Autochthonian setting to instead span several decades, it can simply be assumed that, in the vast expanses of downtime between your actual play, your Alchemical's favored Artifacts may change hands (and perhaps they access others!), having them in hands mostly when the spotlight focuses on them - in actual play.
 
The problem with that interpretation is that Alchemicals are fairly explicitly expected to subvert some of the thematics of their setting.
I quote:
MoEP: Alchemicals pg 80.

"Being expected to be exceptional and allowed to have nonconformist traits because of exceptional positions of trust" is not the same thing as "the rules do not apply to them at all." What's more interesting is that there is absolutely no implication, at all, that Alchemicals might even be trading artifacts away for maximum societal efficiency. Furthermore, the vast majority of Alchemicals will have their memories and their cultural experience steeped entirely in Autochtonian society which doesn't have private property ownership for the most part.

This is an elitist attitude that I disagree with, but the line of discussion isn't relevant to this thread.
What you enjoy is not what others enjoy. Don't call a system's design bad because it doesn't pander to your preferences. Not everyone wants to roleplay.

...ah yes, the 'elitist' attitude that a system should reflect the thematics of the setting and that the bad OGL works are bad because they don't understand thematics are important in a game selling itself on thematics (i.e. any RPG) and is apparently "system designs are bad when they don't pander to my preferences."

In your head, perhaps. I can't really take the rest of your tangent seriously (mostly because it comes out of nowhere). The MoEP already answers this whole issue, anyway:

"It is worth remembering that artifacts, like everything else, are considered state property. This includes even artifacts crafted by an Alchemical's own hands. "I made this, so it's mine" has never been a sanctioned mode of thought in Autochthonia. Still, players need not fear their artifacts being summarily revoked without good reason. Centuries of propaganda efforts have shown that Champions are more strongly identifiable to the Populat when consistently depicted wielding the same storied weapons and armor, or deploying their own cunning inventions on behalf of the state."

Alchemicals don't "own" Artifacts, but are allowed to retain them indefinitely for two reasons - image-building, and "not taking away the player's toys."

This is probably a good moment to point out that it is entirely possible that the Artifacts you take for your Alchemical characters will, in fact, only remain in their possession for a limited duration; the scope of a given Alchemical game is, in all likelihood, far inferior to the scope of the actual activity of an Alchemical. Even if you play a strange game that disregards the sense of urgency of the Autochthonian setting to instead span several decades, it can simply be assumed that, in the vast expanses of downtime between your actual play, your Alchemical's favored Artifacts may change hands (and perhaps they access others!), having them in hands mostly when the spotlight focuses on them - in actual play.

Yes, except there's no actual support anywhere for this, to the point where it's trivial to forget about this, and there's no support in the game for an Alchemical to swap their artifacts for stuff that works better for the mission. The primary difference between the hypothetical Requisitions and the current design is literally "you are allowed to swap this out for stuff that works better-just like your Alchemical charms." Well, that and the fact that I use X instead of 3.

It also reinforces thematics at a base level. You get a huge toybox, but you're only allowed to borrow a few toys at one time. I think that's at least as fun as having Your Toys, because sure you might not get to keep your favorite toy but you get to play with all kinds of fun toys in a way that no other Exalt type gets. You get everything! Rocks, sharp sticks, pulse rifles, phased plasma guns, sonic electronic ball breakers...
 
...ah yes, the 'elitist' attitude that a system should reflect the thematics of the setting and that the bad OGL works are bad because they don't understand thematics are important in a game selling itself on thematics (i.e. any RPG) and is apparently "system designs are bad when they don't pander to my preferences."
I have fun with d20. Lots of people have fun with d20. Ergo, d20 accomplishes the primary goal of an RPG: have fun.
Thematics are a way to do so. They are not the only way.
I didn't want to play D&D because of thematics, I wanted to pretend to be a badass motherfucker killing people who try to kill me. I didn't give a fuck if the setting or system had themes, I just wanted to be a badass.

a game selling itself on thematics (i.e. any RPG)
I thought they sold themselves on being fun.

Do you have any actual defense of your position, or are you just going to continue to snobbishly look down your nose at me because my claims that fun > thematics go against your assertion that thematics are important to any system "doing it right"?
 
Back
Top