General Exalted Thread
The funniest thing is that Liege, for Abyssals, and Infamy for Infernals already basically do that. It's a floating pool of background dots you can reassign for missions, so while - for example - for one mission your Abyssal might want access to his master's Spies, while for another he wants Abyssal Command to lead an army of the damned and for the next he might want an Artefact bonestrider.
Literally all you'd need to do to Alchemicalise it is to look at what backgrounds are appropriate, and maybe give it a quirk (like a better exchange rate for artefact dots). Hell, we did exactly that for Terrifying Argent Witches with the Guanxi background for Lunars (and optionally other people), where it's tit-for-tat social credit (as a replacement drawback to the Abyssal/Infernal "you're expected to spend more time serving your masters the more points you have it in" [1]) and because of the network of favours you can borrow a daiklaive for a while, but you'll probably be called on by the person you borrowed it from for two dots of backgrounds in the future so you should probably get your favour in first so you can call on them when you really need it - except of course they're also offering their help so you'll owe them in the future, etc.
[1] Which is basically what Alchemicals would have; "The more points you have in Requisitions, the more you're a Hero of the State and thus the less time you have to work on your own projects and dabble because the hopes of all the Populat rest on you".
Counterpoint: Charms, which are not part of a general pool, and which have to be acquired for each Exalt.
And I think you do exaggerate the extent of which things are communal, at least in the wealthier nations.
Private pet rats are a thing in Kamak, after all.
And Claslat invented the glot, and currently has an entirely unregulated(and legal) glot exchange/trade for things from small luxuries all the way up to shifts.
By Gemstones Empowered
Cost: 2m; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple,
Keywords: Touch
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: By Hunger Nourished
Heartstones are the fruit of Creation, and the Malfeas will have his fill.
Whenever a Infernal uses By Hunger Nourished to safely consume a Heartstone, which may be equal or less than his essence score, it fuses with flesh, the stone rising out of his skin over his heart to meld with his ribcage so that it is Obvious if it is not hidden by some means . Along with the usual essence that it provides, the heartstone also gives the Infernal Extra dice equal to its rating that may be added to any dice pool, explicitly breaking normal dice caps, up to a number of times equal to his Essence.
Cost: 2m; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple,
Keywords: Touch
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: By Hunger Nourished
Heartstones are the fruit of Creation, and the Malfeas will have his fill.
Whenever a Infernal uses By Hunger Nourished to safely consume a Heartstone, which may be equal or less than his essence score, it fuses with flesh, the stone rising out of his skin over his heart to meld with his ribcage so that it is Obvious if it is not hidden by some means . Along with the usual essence that it provides, the heartstone also gives the Infernal Extra dice equal to its rating that may be added to any dice pool, explicitly breaking normal dice caps, up to a number of times equal to his Essence.
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Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Did you seriously just compare pet rats and a private commodity market that is already viewed as a problem to be solved by those in charge, to artifacts?
- Location
- The end of all things
I don't think that it is particularly twisty to assume that the ability of an Alchemical to (relatively) cheaply requisition artifacts from the state doesn't magically vanish after character creation. There is no logical reason for it to do so. The rules certainly don't say so. It's subject to ST approval, of course, but then again so is basically everything. Favor trading and future commitments may be required, especially if you want something unusual, but probably nothing too arduous. I do agree that they are best treated as floating dots, but that is a separate issue. Ultimately, a five dot artifact requires less material resources than an Alchemical raising his essence.
The alternative is that Artifact 5 was intended to be a "mandatory" purchase for Alchemicals at character creation. I suppose this is... possible, given the Dev's opinions on such things. I greatly dislike this possibility, though it does have the minor advantage of giving Alchemicals something worth purchasing besides willpower and a giant pile of charms.
None of this necessarily applies if you are stranded in Creation, of course, but when you can't even swap your charms out expensive artifacts are the least of your problems.
I made the point that the principle of private property is not unknown to Autochtonian society.
And that how much it's allowed seems to be correlated to national prosperity, culture and needs.
There seem to be significant degrees of nuance in what how robot communism is applied across Autochtonia in general, and for given classes of citizens in particular.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
wat.
ahahahahahano.
I... Look, I'm going to assume you're new at writing Charms, so for now please just take it that "break dicecaps to the tune of up to (Essence x 5) dice" is a bad idea. Those caps are there for a reason.
Kylar
In Training Forever
- Location
- Canada
Honestly, Arsenal might work well for Alchemicals, but that presumes Arsenal was well written. Its not. Its actual one of the most annoying and hard to use backgrounds because its so hard to make sense of what its doing:
Honestly, its usually best just to use the backgrounds as written as guidelines and tailor them for your game. And to be ready to scrap and rewrite dumb ones (Note: referring more to things like Backing, which does nothing canonically, then things like Alchemical Artifact, which at least has point as to why it is like it is and is (somewhat) reasonably balanced. Alchemical Artifact is waaaaaaay down the list of borked Backgrounds to fix, provided you apply some sanity to it.)
I'll note this is actually worse then the standard DB Artifact Background for getting Artifacts, unless you're using the pooling rules (and if you actually understood the pooling rules on your first read through, I commend you). And the DotFA version is worse (balance wise: its very easy to understand, in that it gives 'all the artifacts'). I don't blame the writer for the Traits chapter of Alchemicals for setting up Artifacts the way he did, given 2e's general approach to Artifacts, and the general utterly borked state of Backgrounds. On the plus it does give the impression of an Artifact rich place (which by any definition, Autochthonia and the Octet are) and the level of resources available to the Champions (there aren't many others in Autochthonia that use Artifacts, at least the personal scale weapon type ones). Flipside: Doesn't do enough to emphasize the logistical side of thing, or the Octet's collectivist nature.MoEP: Dragon-Blooded pg 105 said:
Honestly, its usually best just to use the backgrounds as written as guidelines and tailor them for your game. And to be ready to scrap and rewrite dumb ones (Note: referring more to things like Backing, which does nothing canonically, then things like Alchemical Artifact, which at least has point as to why it is like it is and is (somewhat) reasonably balanced. Alchemical Artifact is waaaaaaay down the list of borked Backgrounds to fix, provided you apply some sanity to it.)
You could adjust Class to do this fairly easily, though you'd need to fold in Backing (which maybe should have been a part of it from the get go: Alchemical take their marching orders from somewhere). Maybe restrict Artifact requisition to level 3+? Then rewrite Arsenal into something that isn't impossible to follow for additional military/artifact type goodies, and the basic bases would be covered. You'd need to adjust certain things for different Backers (the Inquisition Backing having Contacts/Spies folded in, the Militat having 'oh my god, so many weapons', etc) but as a general rule, it would work.
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No. Nononononononono.
NO.
Okay. Cap-breaking dice are a NO. Dice caps are a thing for a reason. +25 cap-breaking dice at Essence 5 is not an effect that should exist. It would be an instant win in any fight you're likely to have. Capbreaking dice are a _big deal._ Even five capbreaking dice is an effect that should not exist.
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notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
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- He/She/They
No. God no. This would let an E5 Infernal add 25 dice to his full pool, which is so far beyond the pale of balanced that it wraps from bad to hilarious, and then back to horrifying.
The_Reptile_
Jolly Good
- Location
- THE PITS OF HELL. Also known as Connecticut.
Not to mention that even IF Capbreaking DIce were a not terrible idea, Essence 3 is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR FAR FAR FAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAR too low for such an effect.
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
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- He/They
This wording is confusing and seems incredibly sketchy. Can he use the additional dice a number of times equal to his Essence? Can he add (Essence x Rating) dice to a single pool? If the first is true, what happens when he gets the last use? Does he just lose this benefit of the charm with that hearthstone forever?
Can the hearthstone be removed from the Infernal at a later time?
Also, as mentioned, cap-breakers are powerful and dangerous.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
See the problem I have is that I am saying the rule about Artifacts for Alchemicals is a bad rule (because it is One True Wayism among other things) and people pointing to the rules to justify the rules does not actually justify the rules. I can come up with any hackneyed justification for a stupid rules system I want, that doesn't make it good.
There is nothing in the idea of Alchemicals having unique toys that is actually incompatible with a Requisitions background. If you want to constantly be lugging around your Daiklave because its precious to you, then yeah, I don't see why they wouldn't let you do so. Provided you take on tasks that are appropriate for having a Daiklave, security stuff in other words or you can give a good reason you might need to have "but suddenly Daiklave to the face!" as one of your options (and considering you are a high value target, this is not hard at all to justify).
Requisitions doesn't force the ST to take away your toys. It just makes more thematic (and game mechanical balance) sense than charging 1xp per artifact dot.
There is nothing in the idea of Alchemicals having unique toys that is actually incompatible with a Requisitions background. If you want to constantly be lugging around your Daiklave because its precious to you, then yeah, I don't see why they wouldn't let you do so. Provided you take on tasks that are appropriate for having a Daiklave, security stuff in other words or you can give a good reason you might need to have "but suddenly Daiklave to the face!" as one of your options (and considering you are a high value target, this is not hard at all to justify).
Requisitions doesn't force the ST to take away your toys. It just makes more thematic (and game mechanical balance) sense than charging 1xp per artifact dot.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Also worth noting, if you care that much about your daiklave or whatever, you will find ways to keep using it. RPG players in my experience are really good at finding ways to using their hammer on anything that's even vaguely nail-shaped, and quite a few things that aren't.
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As others have already pointed out, this is bad. But they missed some issues, namely that you can add multiple hearthstones, thus getting significantly higher cap breaking much earlier than essence 5. And, honestly, any cap breaking ability should be looked at extremely carefully. If it's not limited to extremely specific circumstances, it's almost certainly broken.
I'd point out that @MJ12 Commando didn't say that DnD is bad/failed. Just that the OGL failed. His point appears to be that it failed because it did not supplement the need for developers to make their own systems, as many of the games that tried to use the OGL for non DnD games failed/were bad.
Hmm... So loss the cap breaking and make it clearer.
By Gemstones Empowered
Cost: 2m; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple,
Keywords: Touch
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: By Hunger Nourished
Heartstones are the sweetest fruits in all of Creation, and the Malfeas will have his fill.
Whenever a Infernal uses By Hunger Nourished to safely consume a Heartstone, which may be equal or less than his essence score, it fuses with flesh, the stone rising out of his skin over his heart to meld with his ribcage so that it is Obvious if it is not hidden by some means . Along with the usual essence that it provides, the heartstone also gives the Infernal Extra dice equal to the Heartstones rating that may be added to any dice pool,a number of times equal to his Essence per scene.
So an Infernal with a 2 dote Heartstone at Essenec 3 can add 2 dice to his roll up to three times per scene.
And Infernal may pay the cost of By Hunger Nourished again to eject the stone from his chest. Breaking his attunement to the stone. The Infernal may only fuse with one Heartstone at a time.
By Gemstones Empowered
Cost: 2m; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple,
Keywords: Touch
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: By Hunger Nourished
Heartstones are the sweetest fruits in all of Creation, and the Malfeas will have his fill.
Whenever a Infernal uses By Hunger Nourished to safely consume a Heartstone, which may be equal or less than his essence score, it fuses with flesh, the stone rising out of his skin over his heart to meld with his ribcage so that it is Obvious if it is not hidden by some means . Along with the usual essence that it provides, the heartstone also gives the Infernal Extra dice equal to the Heartstones rating that may be added to any dice pool,a number of times equal to his Essence per scene.
So an Infernal with a 2 dote Heartstone at Essenec 3 can add 2 dice to his roll up to three times per scene.
And Infernal may pay the cost of By Hunger Nourished again to eject the stone from his chest. Breaking his attunement to the stone. The Infernal may only fuse with one Heartstone at a time.
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Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Amusingly enough, I was just working on a requisitions background for my Strike Witches (quest)/RWBY themed exalted game concept.
I think some of you are vastly overthinking things. Artifact costs are they way they are for no more reasons than "the realm has vast storehouses of stuff" and "Jadeborn and Autocthonians have access to Working Factory-Cathedrals". That literally all the justifications there is, or really needs to be, for the artifact costs as written.
Now if you want to use a requisitions system for Alchemicals, great! Go ahead and do that.
there's no call for slinging shit at d20 or telling other people "You're doing it wrong." If they want their alchies to have a big pile of artifacts, that's fine. Their version of autocthon just has a lot more magitech lying around or whatever. As people have ponted out, high attunement costs plus the low more pools of alchies means that "load up on a dozen artifacts" is more crippling that game breaking.
I think some of you are vastly overthinking things. Artifact costs are they way they are for no more reasons than "the realm has vast storehouses of stuff" and "Jadeborn and Autocthonians have access to Working Factory-Cathedrals". That literally all the justifications there is, or really needs to be, for the artifact costs as written.
Now if you want to use a requisitions system for Alchemicals, great! Go ahead and do that.
there's no call for slinging shit at d20 or telling other people "You're doing it wrong." If they want their alchies to have a big pile of artifacts, that's fine. Their version of autocthon just has a lot more magitech lying around or whatever. As people have ponted out, high attunement costs plus the low more pools of alchies means that "load up on a dozen artifacts" is more crippling that game breaking.
Possible.
Autochtonia certainly has no shortage of toys, if you believe the fluff:
Thing is, I suspect that there is a limit on how cost-effective artifacts get for their rating, at least for Alchemicals.Compass:Autochtonia pg 26 said:
For example, superheavy plate, when coupled with the Aegis Integration System charm, gives better protection than pretty much any power armor out there, including CBA.
And it does it without mobility or fatigue penalties, and without the need for hearthstones.
Or so it seems to me, anyway.
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
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- He/They
d20 =/= DnD
DnD is a d20 system, but d20 is not restricted to DnD. DnD is the biggest tabletop RPG, and is the first user of the OGL, so I assumed MJ12 was talking about DnD/d20.
Regardless, my primary point was that RPGs are about fun*, not thematics. Thematics are a tool for fun. The only way to do RPGs wrong is to not have fun. The OGL provided a vehicle for my fun, so it succeeded at fulfilling the primary purpose of an RPG.
* "fun" in this context is a term for general enjoyment, not just "you always succeed at doing what you want".
That said, this isn't really about Exalted anymore so much as general game design, so this will be my last post on the subject.
Honestly, I'd swap the bonus dice out for something else; bonus dice are bland and don't really seem to fit. How about a minor power that varies based on the hearthstone's aspect? Probably not for Vitriol or Yozi-aspected hearthstones, though; both because there are just too many Yozi, and because it's the energies of Creation that Malfeas is denied.
Hmm... I think you're right actually. What about to strenght? Maybe the Infernals muscles bulge with essence if he or she pays a point of willpower and it adds the stones rating in bonus strength dice for a scene? It'd be more interesting and it would be more in theme for Malfeas.
CBA can be made exactly as protective as Superheavy Plate and still have a couple extra ability slots left over for preferences, plus is loaded with a good number of advantages that SHP lacks.
Kylar
In Training Forever
- Location
- Canada
I'm pretty sure nobody ever wants Alchemicals to not have access to the personal Artifacts background. The day I cannot buy something like Captain America's shield at chargen is probably the time I leave that game. It also makes no sense, given the 4000 odd years of highly centralize Alchemicals and the hilarious expenditures of MM that go into things like Alchemical cities. Them having a better background for buying artifacts up then 'Solars who must scavenge from tombs' makes sense. Hell, given the high degree of centralization (and them just flat out being better crafters), them having a better background then the Realm isn't even to big an issue.
The issue comes more from 'let spend XP to solve this onetime problem with Artifacts' which is wasteful, and potentially annoying for an ST (especially since it implies all Alchemicals have a batcave full of gadgets they almost never use, which feels weird given the collectivist themes of Autochthonia, and the ongoing resource shortage). That situation is better represented with a Requisitions type thing, both for the players (not burning XP for something they only use once) and the general themes of the setting (also, not everyone wants a Batcave of artifacts, though I have no doubt some old Alchemical totally do).
The other issue is four/five dot artifacts, because these should be a) expensive, b) powerful, and c) rare. Being able to just buy these up feels wrong, especially for bigger things like vehicles (why are vehicles even on the artifact scale). Course , this can be controlled pretty well by the ST whacking you when you ask for a Sun's Fist Chakram, but that feeds back into the 'ST controls how backgrounds are raised' issue, not the 'what backgrounds fit Autochthonia the best'.
Not really, no.
CBA is 12L/12B, with 1 Fatigue; if you take the enhanced durability option, you get it up to 15L/15B, leaving two slots to play with.
Orichalcum SHP is 17L/17B, and with Aegis Integration, you pay normal attunement costs no matter your caste, while ignoring mobility and fatigue penalties.
And that doesn't account for the fact that you don't have to pay for a Level 3 Hearthstone to power it, either.
CBA is very good, don't get me wrong; it's just not as much of a big deal for an Alchemical as it would be for another Celestial Exalt.