Sterbelicht - One Sacrifice At A Time Against The Galaxy (40K)

The Imperium, well known for its nuanced understanding and deep respect and appreciation for science as well as the high value it places innocent lives, obviously never makes mistakes and ostracizes and kills people for what are standard genetic defects or non-corrupting results of, "Man, isn't heavy industry shitty?"

The Laurent said:

Ah, so it's your claim that the Imperium actually has a very good understanding of Mutants and what puts you beyond the limit at which you must be exterminated as a monster or killed at birth?

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It's more that "The typical thing that crosses the line to being a full out Mutant is genetic deviances so extreme that there's basically no way it makes any sense." So someone born to two baselines who had an extra two functional arms and rending claws on each one, or a Hive Worker who got stuck in the underhive for a while having their legs go digitigrade over the course of a month or so.

Ordinary genetic problems are just... Well, that's to be expected when you're a peasant, and if you're in the nobility--it's easily corrected too. Who cares if you have a cleft lip when you can just get a pretty engraved mask that's also a fully functional rebreather grafted on to.

Basically, Hollywood Mutations are what qualify as Mutations. Not just "Someone was born with a bum leg, or someone has seizures sometimes." Now, people who are neurodivergent in some way might get accused of witchcraft and burned at the stake, but that's the cultural problem and not a mutation one.

The Laurent said:

Ah, so it's your claim that the Imperium actually has a very good understanding of Mutants and what puts you beyond the limit at which you must be exterminated as a monster or killed at birth?

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Yeah I get what you're saying, Im trying to play devils advocate I suppose and trying to explain that there does seem to be a pretty huge physical difference where one could argue that sorcery or what have you is involved and it's a threat (there is zero way radiation exposure is going to turn you into some of the mutant examples you see in lore without just killing your ancestors outright, for example), but it's definitely unnecessarily violent.

Feels like people are getting worked up over the hole mutation thing, so maybe people need to be reminded that in a grimdark setting bad things can happen for no reason other than the setting being grimdark?
It's not hard to believe that the Imperium being evil liars and the Chaos Gods having a claim on mutants are both true.

Alectai said:

It's more that "The typical thing that crosses the line to being a full out Mutant is genetic deviances so extreme that there's basically no way it makes any sense." So someone born to two baselines who had an extra two functional arms and rending claws on each one, or a Hive Worker who got stuck in the underhive for a while having their legs go digitigrade over the course of a month or so.

Ordinary genetic problems are just... Well, that's to be expected when you're a peasant, and if you're in the nobility--it's easily corrected too.

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I think you are underselling "the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable."

Honestly it seems like something where it'd be entirely random whether you get slack for regular genetic problems or not.

Like, to use the game that absolutely inspired the ethics system, one of the decisions you can make in RT (in Colony Management) is to ease up on the brutal oppression of Mutants because you need the warm bodies to do your labor, and so it's time to lower the standards for what counts as "genetically pure."

That seems to pretty openly imply that the standard can be raised up or down as whoever is in charge decides to do so.

I don't think they're necessarily connected to chaos, but it makes sense to me for someone to make the knee jerk reaction when they see an underhive mutant and compare it to chaos mutations (both of which are impossible, to be frank). It sucks and innocent people get caught a lot but there's a world of difference between that and someone with like a sixth toe.

Oh it totally can, and it's totally flexible, presumably, the default is "Any vibes that aren't along a specific category is a Mutant" as far as most governments are concerned, but that's because the populations are so absurdly high and cheap labor you can freely exploit is a benefit, so it profits the government to set the standard as to "What is a Mutant" way beyond reason so they can get free slaves that aren't even entitled the minimum acknowledgement of humanity.

I'm explaining myself poorly and you're probably right overall, sorry to bring it up.

Hazeron said:

I don't think they're necessarily connected to chaos, but it makes sense to me for someone to make the knee jerk reaction when they see an underhive mutant and compare it to chaos mutations (both of which are impossible, to be frank). It sucks and innocent people get caught a lot but there's a world of difference between that and someone with like a sixth toe.

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Also as far as it goes, Beastmen/Abhumans were part of the Imperium's military forces and yet haven't been seen as much recently, for reasons that are speculated to have to do with tightening standards for what is counted as a Mutant. So the Imperium is apparently getting worse, not better, on the issue.

Ahh yeah I know there isn't any solid standards (especially true if you compare a relatively stable and normal looking Beastman to some mewling underhive thing), I was playing devils advocate too hard and probably misinterpreting or inserting headcanon into it.

[X] "Yes. The Celestial Choir Shall See Us Through."

The Laurent said:

Beastmen are literally left in the woods to die at birth when they're born. I think that this might have something to do with what happens next.

In 40k there are Beastmen who are/were actively fighting in the name of the Imperium, but let's not hold their Nazi support against them and instead note that this in fact means that they're not automatically supporters of Chaos.

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Huh, thought Beastmen were exclusive to Warhammer Fantasy.

Were they still called Beastmen in 40k or a different name?

Iconoclast is not "Against Religion" per se? Like, the original Iconoclasts were religious people who rejected the status quo theology.

The funny thing is that Iconoclast is more Heretic than the Heretics, in many ways, in that rather than believing a different God they believe in a different galaxy.

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Alectai said:

It'd be more accurate to say that Iconoclast is less against gods and more for "This isn't about the Gods, this is about being the best we can be without needing one standing over us with a club."

An Iconoclast who makes their own God is an Iconoclast still in a bipolar universe like this where you're either a slave of the God-Emperor of Man or a slave of Chaos

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Okay, those make some sense then.

IronBig21 said:

Huh, thought Beastmen were exclusive to Warhammer Fantasy.

Were they still called Beastmen in 40k or a different name?

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Nope, literally called the same thing. And in a kinda shocking way that, for once, Warhammer 40k is better than Warhammer Fantasy at not validating Chuds, it always was the case that those who fell to Chaos often did so as a result of prejudice and being treated like shit, and there was a whole throughline of them being phased out as the Imperium gets even worse.

Whereas in Warhammer Fantasy they leave the implications of Beastmen kinda unexamined, despite being much more clear on the existence of shades of grey in most other situations/factions, at least to some degree.

lizatessu said:

Wait, does that mean we're located in the eastern fringes?

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*Shrug* Who knows? Warp Travel is fucky, even before Chaos gets involved.

Also, to weigh in on the Mutant/Corruption Debate with WoG's for this quest:

1. Chaos Corruption Is Not Static.
You can be corrupted by viewing Daemons, or being in the presence of Chaos for too long, but so too can you undo that corruption by being within a holy place and praying, or being within a community that supports you and gives you purpose. You can literally be a slave to Chaos, and a result of a Chaos process, and still have faith in the Emperor without falling to Chaos. Daemoncubula, for all that it is hyped up as The Most Disturbing Thing Ever has a village of rejects and slaves who pray to Big E. Those people are getting a constant buff against corruption because of their community.

2. Visible Mutations Are Far More Benign Than Soul Corruption.
Having a tentacle only means that Chaos has one more hook in you, but not that you are inherently more likely to fall. If you have access to the options in 1, you can deny those hooks and pull. But it means that unlike those who fall in mind, you are far less likely to get the opportunity to negate the hooks. But if you get corrupted in Soul? That's the 9/10th that fucks you over harder than a Slaaneshi Daemon.

3. The Imperium Is Literally Taking The Worst Options As Default Because That Is The Setting.
Like, this isn't even up to debate. The Imperium has no problem genociding loyal planets because they think those people saw too much. They have frequent civil wars because of stupid shit. You literally needed the Space Wolves to throw down against the Inquisition to get Daemons acknowledged beyond secret circles as real. Take every fascist, communist, theocratic, oligarchic, autocratic, and other ists and tics, take the worst parts, put them together, and you have the Imperium. That is the setting. Everyone is evil, we are just choosing the flavor we like to play as. You just happened to choose the flavor that likes to violently shit down the throat of everyone else for not working to make a better galaxy free of the ugly shit.

The Laurent said:

Nope, literally called the same thing. And in a kinda shocking way that, for once, Warhammer 40k is better than Warhammer Fantasy at not validating Chuds, it always was the case that those who fell to Chaos often did so as a result of prejudice and being treated like shit, and there was a whole throughline of them being phased out as the Imperium gets even worse.

Whereas in Warhammer Fantasy they leave the implications of Beastmen kinda unexamined, despite being much more clear on the existence of shades of grey in most other situations/factions, at least to some degree.

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I see

I like that, not having the whole species be blindly evil chaos followers from birth.

HeroCooky said:

Everyone is evil, we are just choosing the flavor we like to play as. You just happened to choose the flavor that likes to violently shit down the throat of everyone else for not working to make a better galaxy free of the ugly shit.

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This better mean we get to tar and feather any and all Inquisitors we meet (minus Greyfax).

I'm just saying, Big E (and by extension the Star Child) would probably appreciate us for punishing the Inquisition especially for their own brand of idiocy.

The Laurent said:

Whereas in Warhammer Fantasy they leave the implications of Beastmen kinda unexamined, despite being much more clear on the existence of shades of grey in most other situations/factions, at least to some degree.

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They aren't the same thing. Beastmen in each is very different lore wise.

IronBig21 said:

This better mean we get to tar and feather any and all Inquisitors we meet (minus Greyfax).

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Buddy, your people don't have the slightest shimmer what an Inquisitor is. If one rocks up and expects treatment similar to Imperial Worlds, or that he can act like there, he gets ganked and disposed of before he can blink.

Edit: You have one dude who knows what the Inquisition is, and he fully believes/knows they had a hand in murdering his Chapter via Forced Suicide Crusade.

Edit2: Night for me, I'll answer questions once I am awake and have time.

[X] "No. The Avenger Will Kill Them All."

Ship

The Laurent said:

Again, this is just... really weird vibes. Human bodies change and grow. People who are born mutants don't seem like they'd somehow be more vulnerable than anyone else, unless the claim is that anyone who gets sick or has a genetic condition actually just gets Corruption points.

...and I guess you could argue that GW thinks that anyone who strays from a normative biological baseline is actually corrupt, but at that point the thing to do would be to throw out the bathwater becasue the baby is actually Baby Hitler.

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I mean once again its up to the author and GW wanting Grimdark universe. But from a meta point of vue maybe it is the discomfort of the idea of something replacing humanity, how long until what evolves etc is no longer human? But yeah Imperium are space nazis that tries to deny reality with only the fact they live in a World so f***ing rekt that maybe being nice actually make things worse. Once again you can argue the opposite I'm not against the idea that in reality if they stopped being tyrant they could reverse the rot and limit chaos god corruption and that ignorance helping is bullshit.

Hazeron said:

40k mutants ARE NOT real life birth defects. On the vast majority of worlds when someone says mutant they're thinking of the muttering, four armed thing with too many joints that lives in the radzone and an area where the veil is probably thin. There is a world of difference between a cleft lip and the amount of genetic/spiritual contamination that would get you classified as a mutant.

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nah man,mutant in 40k also include birth defects i read my fair share of short stories where someone might have a extra toe or a sligthly deformed limb and gets treated with suspicion over it

remember reading a excerpt where a hedgehog mutation (aka spines for hair) babies where thrown into ovens at industrial scale,as well local voidborn mutants (incredibly thin and pale) where being mob lynched by others

the author himself tell us the cute bunny girl would have been mistreated despite being pretty much healthy and functional in all means

there is slight mutations,and there is the cronenberg monsters,but the imperium doesnt have wish to put the effort to differentiate between so instead it yeets them all into the murder blender

is up to each local culture how strict their standards as well

a mining colony probably needs all the arms it needs,so is likely to be more lax on mutations as long you work
a eclesiarchy lead world is more fanatical and so will purge even minor mutations
a forgeworld will likely actually have some strict parameters and way to differentiate and cure mutations