SolipsistSerpent
Endlessly Devouring
Because apparently every forum needs one, I'm doing the same thing I did on SB and making one of these.
Go wild.
Heaven or Hell? Let's rock!
Go wild.
Heaven or Hell? Let's rock!
Worm Morality Debate Thread
- Thread starter SolipsistSerpent
- Start date
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
OK let's start here.
I think the thing is that none of the Undersiders answer for the crimes they do commit. They committed several felonies and are only really the good guys because the city falls to ruin. Had Levi not attacked they'd be no different than any of the other gangs. Just more competent. A big issue for me personally is that I don't view them doing good as a counter to the bad they did. As the one true King Stannis put it. A good deed doesn't wash out the bad nor the bad the good. The Undersiders were commendable after the fall of Brockton in keeping order and helping people but that doesn't mean they should avoid answering for their many crimes.
That's the part of the issue. The Undersiders weren't taking over some corner of a failed state. They were taking over a large city in America. The PRT and the government could have spent more time fixing things if they didn't have to deal with the Undersiders. Now the flipside is that The Undersiders were helping people. So really the sensible thing would be to help establish order then return control back to the proper authorities. The Undersiders showed no, and were in fact not planing on returning control of the city to the government. That's a huge fucking problem.
I think a big issue is that the people in place in BB were the worst sort of people to handle the situation. Had they had a more logical director, and hadn't lost most of the Protectorate leadership in the recent weeks they'd responded better.
I think the thing is that none of the Undersiders answer for the crimes they do commit. They committed several felonies and are only really the good guys because the city falls to ruin. Had Levi not attacked they'd be no different than any of the other gangs. Just more competent. A big issue for me personally is that I don't view them doing good as a counter to the bad they did. As the one true King Stannis put it. A good deed doesn't wash out the bad nor the bad the good. The Undersiders were commendable after the fall of Brockton in keeping order and helping people but that doesn't mean they should avoid answering for their many crimes.
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
The hell is wrong with you?
Why should they answer for their crimes? Enforcing the law is the Protectorate's job. It's not the responsibility of the Undersiders to come forward and let themselves get fucked because the heroes are too incompetent to come do it themselves.
Supervillains commit crimes. Superheroes catch them. Supervillains shouldn't have to catch themselves because the Superheroes are too tired and too scawed to do their damn jobs.
King Stannis is the absolute worst person to cite here, because King Stannis has no problem getting away with blatantly shady shit like condemning people to be burned alive in accordance to some psycho religion he barely even believes in because some zealot tells him it might benefit his fight. He had Cortnay Penrose assassinated so he can have his brother's son sacrificed for fucks sake. Stannis's sense of justice only applies when it happens to other people.
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VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
In an ideal world all criminals should be punished.
That's not what I meant. I meant that it's totally logical for the Protectorate to try and bring the Undersiders to justice. No matter how many people they helped they still committed many crimes. They should have to answer for it.
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
No, in an ideal world all criminals should be rehabilitated. Focusing on punishment is bronze age savagery.
They can try, but if they fail (they they will) then it's not the Undersiders we should be bitching and moaning at, it's the people who suck at their jobs.
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VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
Punishment is an important part of rehabilitation.
I'm merely pointing out from the point of view of the Protectorate the hostility towards the Undersiders makes perfect sense. That was the context of the discussion before it was moved here. Essentially the point Racheakt made was that the PRT was putting their image and importance above sense by not listening to Tattletale before it was too late. I was pointing out that they have every reason to suspect that the Undersiders are only out for their own gain.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Didn't we just do this?
greendoor
(Verified Door)
- Location
- Arizona
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Why? Why should we waste money and waste huge parts of the Undersider's lives to punish them if they aren't a threat anymore? I consider it a good thing if a criminal (Or a supervillian for that matter) stops being one, that's a good thing. It's a double good thing if they do so after risking their lives multiple times against the common foes of humanity (Levi, S9, Edchina....) and weren't incredibly terrible like the ABB or E88. I don't see how punishing them solves anything, hell if anything it'll just piss them off and show other Supervillians that reforming means nothing, you'll be punished anyway.
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
Except they didn't reform. They were ruling an area of the city like warlords. Skitter reformed. She tried to make up for all the shit she did. But overall the Undersiders have done nothing to show they have any remorse for any of their crimes.
greendoor
(Verified Door)
- Location
- Arizona
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They stopped doing crimes enough that the Protectorate was able to tolerate them existing without going after them. That's reformed enough for me, combined with all those S Class threat fights they fought in.
Edit: Also, I don't particularly care about remorse, what I care about is: Are they not doing destructive crimes anymore? Hounding someone because they don't show remorse achieves nothing.
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VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
So kidnapping, robbery, and all other crazy shit they did is fine so long as they stopped later? No need to punish criminals so long as they stop. And by stop of course in this case it's profit to the point that additional crime is no longer needed. That seems somewhat lacking.
greendoor
(Verified Door)
- Location
- Arizona
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If those criminals risked theirs lives 3 or more times to stop S Class threats? Yes, i'd consider that enough, or at least enough to downgrade the charges to Slap on the Wrist+probation which I doubt the PRT would allow. That is of course, assuming they don't do any major crimes with victims after said slap on the wrist.
Edit: Beating up supervillians doesn't count in my book, considering they let Vigilantes exist.
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VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
I find that quite lacking. That means the Undersiders effectively suffer no consequences for their actions. The Bank Robbery? Aiding a kidnapper? Mind jacking Sophia? Stealing sensitive information from the PRT? All that goes totally unanswered.
greendoor
(Verified Door)
- Location
- Arizona
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ok, what do you propose to do about all the good they did? Or do they only get punished for bad things, doing good deeds doesn't matter?
eDit: I'm arguing the good they did outweighs the bad. Yes what they did to Sophia was bad. Yes, holding up the bank was bad. But they also risked their lives to fight Leviathan (And almost died horribly), played a major part in repelling the nine (And almost died horribly), and reported Edchina and fought her (and almost died horribly).
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VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
Like I said a good deed doesn't erase a bad one, nor should a bad deed lessen a good one. They should answer for their crimes but that doesn't mean that renders the good they did moot.
greendoor
(Verified Door)
- Location
- Arizona
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Except it does. "Thank you for fighting that Endbringer, fighting the Nine, and reporting Edchina before she could kill a bunch of people. Now, off to jail with you." What's the incentive there for other villians to help? That'd just be sending out a message that no matter what you do, your still scum in the eyes of the law, that your doomed to prison. And, I don't agree that the good doesn't wash out the bad. I don't believe in punishment by itself as justice. If the Undersiders stop being Supervillians because the PRT stopped hounding them because Taylor made a deal, and they weren't total psychos* I fail to see why punishment is neccessary.
*Or are you one of those people who believe their as bad as the ABB or E88?
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
Or it sends the message that laws can be ignored if you are willing to have some basic human decency. Moral behaviour should be the expectation not the exception.
I'm not saying off to the 'Cage with them. But why do they get to stay in lives of power and privilege when all that was a direct result of their criminal behaviour? Why is Taylor the only one who has to be a hero to wipe the slate clean?
greendoor
(Verified Door)
- Location
- Arizona
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't consider throwing yourselves againt multiple S class threats to be basic human decency.
What exact purpose does going through the massive hassle and expense of either arresting them, suing them, or both to strip these assets achieve?
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
With great power comes great responsibility. If you have superpowers you use them for the good of all. Anything less is selfishness.
It prevents them from profiting from crime. That's sort of a big deal. Crime shouldn't pay.
greendoor
(Verified Door)
- Location
- Arizona
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Which the Undersiders did by taking territory and fighting those S Class threats. Sure it wasn't for purely selfless motives and sure there are previous crimes, but they still did. That deserves some kind of reward. Besides, people are selfish. Should we punish normal people for being normal people because they are selfish?
But apparently, neither should altruism.
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
Superhumans are not normal people.
Where did I say that? Taylor is a perfect example of what I think the Undersiders should have done. That to me is real reform. Not making millions of dollars and facing zero repercussions for any of their crimes.
Thrice.Great
Full of Various Wiles (Verified God)
- Location
- the Noosphere
Unless your superpower is to be super enlightened, or have super morality, or even super intelligence, then your mindset is human enough that selfishness is still an issue.
Actually one of the more interesting conflicts you can have in a superhero story is the fact that the heroes are actually just people underneath all the spandex. They don't always want to save people but feel like they have to (Amy), or they give up on their heroing because they see it's not working (Ex Machina is a great example of that), or they use their powers in ways they think are important and acceptable but society sees as villainous.
What is the good of all? How does one ascertain this? If a government is corrupt and ineffective, overthrowing it would be beneficial to those forced to live under it. Those who benefited from the government corruption now suffer. Is there a kind of cost/benefit analysis heroes should be making? What about foreign capes who see culture specific behaviors as evil? Should Superman steal all of the hijab in the Middle East because people in America think it oppresses women?
Should heroes work within the system or from outside? If the system fails are they obligated to work around it, repair it, or remove it? How can heroes create a consensus for what the 'good of all' looks like? What do heroes do about people who disagree with their definitions of Good, or who want heroes to not participate in the ethical dialogue (remember, lots of places have laws against vigilantism).
I'm getting on your case here because I've noticed you have a pretty absolute view of morality and truth and I don't always know that it's useful in the discussing of morals or ethics beyond "Here are my opinions, deal with it."
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
Isn't that the case no matter what?
Relevant to the discussion at hand: Supervillains can get away with most of the stuff they did - if they stop being supervillains. It's how Assault got his job. Hundreds of felonies and his punishment is basically probation because he switched sides. Same thing with Taylor, really. The Undersiders never showed the inclination to do that. They quite insistently remained villains. If they're going to self-identify as such, why shouldn't they be treated as such?
And that's just absurd. Al Capone wasn't any less despicable because he was hard to bring down.
And that's just absurd. Al Capone wasn't any less despicable because he was hard to bring down.
Polokun
Dragonheart
On the other hand, NOT punishing them clearly sends a message that Supervillains can do whatever the fuck they want because the Heroes cannot/will not stop them.
So are you of the opinion that criminals in RL should just be given a slap on the back and be all "Oh those rapscallions!" with a hearty chuckle? Because otherwise taking them to trial and given correct sentences would just be too much "Hassle"?
You're Goal-shifting here. You're still blatantly ignoring their crimes.
And what about the opposite? The people who see what one group sees as "Good" is really "bad"? Are they suddenly out of the picture just because they're not important?