Worm Morality Debate Thread

On the other hand, NOT punishing them clearly sends a message that Supervillains can do whatever the fuck they want because the Heroes cannot/will not stop them.

Then why should villians join endbringer fights, if their not gonna get any form of leniency from it? After all, we can't ignore their crimes.

So are you of the opinion that criminals in RL should just be given a slap on the back and be all "Oh those rapscallions!" with a hearty chuckle? Because otherwise taking them to trial and given correct sentences would just be too much "Hassle"?

If they stop doing violent crimes against civilians, have been major part of maintaining order in a major city, aren't total psychos, theirs a major crisis going on, and they've risked their lives multiple times against the common foes of mankind. I challenge to name a single example from Real Life with those stipulations.

You're Goal-shifting here. You're still blatantly ignoring their crimes.

No, I think the good they've done and their value as fighters of Endbringers and other S Class threats outweighs said crimes. You don't get to tell me what my own opinions are because you disagree.
 
Then why should villians join endbringer fights, if their not gonna get any form of leniency from it? After all, we can't ignore their crimes.
You're not addressing the opposite of this. Why should Villains be stopped at all then? Let them run cities like anarchic empires to satisfy their own desire as long as they fight Endbringers, it's no big whoop apparently.

If they stop doing violent crimes against civilians, have been major part of maintaining order in a major city, aren't total psychos, theirs a major crisis going on, and they've risked their lives multiple times against the common foes of mankind. I challenge to name a single example from Real Life with those stipulations.

Since when does doing a good deed automatically mean the bad one is forgotten?

No, I think the good they've done and their value as fighters of Endbringers and other S Class threats outweighs said crimes. You don't get to tell me what my own opinions are because you disagree.

But you're still ignoring the problem that apparently as long as they go agaisnt Endbringers/S-Class threats, they're allowed to do whatever the fuck they want.
 
Then why should villians join endbringer fights, if their not gonna get any form of leniency from it?

I think the leniency they get from it are the various no-kill rules and the part where you have to mess up pretty badly before you end up in the Birdcage. Nevertheless, fighting an S-class threat does not in and of itself clear away your crimes. Everyone's always been quite clear about that.
 
You're not addressing the opposite of this. Why should Villains be stopped at all then? Let them run cities like anarchic empires to satisfy their own desire as long as they fight Endbringers, it's no big whoop apparently.

Sure, as long as said city is an anarchic mess, those warlords actually help things, they don't kill or attack anyone without justification, and their not psychos. You know, like the Undersiders.


Since when does doing a good deed automatically mean the bad one is forgotten?


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Since when does doing good deeds not mitigate the bad ones you've done.

But you're still ignoring the problem that apparently as long as they go agaisnt Endbringers/S-Class threats, they're allowed to do whatever the fuck they want.

No, i'm not. I'm saying if they retire from being actively villainous (Like the Undersiders after Taylor defects), they don't have a history of being psychotic murderers for no reason, and they have a history of helping agaisnt S Class threats (Like the Undersiders, three times by then), then I think not actively going after them until they make a problem of themselves again or the world stops being an enormous shitshole is justified.

I think the leniency they get from it are the various no-kill rules and the part where you have to mess up pretty badly before you end up in the Birdcage. Nevertheless, fighting an S-class threat does not in and of itself clear away your crimes. Everyone's always been quite clear about that.

No, I disagree. I think fighting Endbringers (or the Nine, or Edchina) should grant you a certain degree of lenciency, which when combined when no longer being active villainous assholes (like the Undersiders after Taylor defects) should mean you shouldn't be a target. Atonement through service.
 
Sure, as long as said city is an anarchic mess, those warlords actually help things, they don't kill or attack anyone without justification, and their not psychos. You know, like the Undersiders.
By who's justification? What standard of justification?

Since when does doing good deeds not mitigate the bad ones you've done.

If a man commits murder, him donating to the church for twenty years after doesn't suddenly make that murder go away.

No, i'm not. I'm saying if they retire from being actively villainous (Like the Undersiders after Taylor defects), they don't have a history of being psychotic murderers for no reason, and they have a history of helping agaisnt S Class threats (Like the Undersiders, three times by then), then I think not actively going after them until they make a problem of themselves again or the world stops being an enormous shitshole is justified.

So crimes should be ignored as long as the criminal benefits you in some way?

No, I disagree. I think fighting Endbringers (or the Nine, or Edchina) should grant you a certain degree of lenciency

Again, why? Should robbers and wife beaters get off light just because they also happen to kill rapists and murderers?
 
By who's justification? What standard of justification?

Mine of course, because i'm the one who holds that opinion. Of course, I can ask the same thing to you? Why is your opinion more valid?

If a man commits murder, him donating to the church for twenty years after doesn't suddenly make that murder go away.

If a man does a few non lethal felonies, and then risks his life a more than a few times against the common foe of mankind, saving dozens or hundreds of lives, and struggles against the end of the world, and he is more useful outside of prison then inside, why is punishment super important? Why should potential assets be wasted to bring them into prison and by proxy prevent them from fighting against the various foes who are slowly killing humanity?

So crimes should be ignored as long as the criminal benefits you in some way?

Crimes should be weighed against the criminals potential use to society and how much they've done to counterbalance those crimes. Punishment is a means to an end at best.

Again, why? Should robbers and wife beaters get off light just because they also happen to kill rapists and murderers?

Because the Robbers are needed to fight off the Rapists and Murderers, because the authorities aren't capable of it on their own. I'd rather have the Robbers fighting the Endbringers and other S Class threats than sitting in prison doing nothing.
 
Mine of course, because i'm the one who holds that opinion. Of course, I can ask the same thing to you? Why is your opinion more valid?
Valid point, but if we're going down that road, your opinion is no more valid then mine. Ergo, My opinion is just as justified as yours.

Why is punishment super important?
Why is the law important?

Crimes should be weighed against the criminals potential use to society and how much they've done to counterbalance those crimes. Punishment is a means to an end at best.

So basically, as long as the society benefits or profits from said criminals activity, it's ok to sweep all their crimes under the rug then? Yes or no?

-Murderer walks from a crime scene past a cop and slips a money clip in the officer's hand while saying "You didn't see nothing."-

Because the Robbers are needed to fight off the Rapists and Murderers, because the authorities aren't capable of it on their own. I'd rather have the Robbers fighting the Endbringers and other S Class threats than sitting in prison doing nothing.

And what about the people who suffered and maybe even died because of said robbers? Do they not matter to you now? So really, it's not about criminals and authority anymore, it's just strictly about math, reducing human lives to just numbers then. Turning a blind eye to a certain 50 today because of a possible 100 tomorrow. In which case, morals, ethics, decency, compassion, justice, all of that should be abandoned and all that should matter is the numbers. Because we humans are apparently competently logical, objective, unfeeling race where even the base reason for why we do anything is nothing but lies because it can all be simply addressed with a calculator.
 
Because the Robbers are needed to fight off the Rapists and Murderers, because the authorities aren't capable of it on their own. I'd rather have the Robbers fighting the Endbringers and other S Class threats than sitting in prison doing nothing.
If Worm demographics are anything like our own, there are much more 'petty' criminals than there are rapists and murderers. It could be argued that the only reason the authorities are 'incapable' is because those Robbers decided to be criminals, whittling away at resources, public perception of safety, engaging in active sabotage of those authorities and generally making it so that a cost-benefit analysis has to be run. We'll rob this bank while you're dealing with the kidnapper, mmk?

Because if they fight S Class threats, band together against the rapists and murderers, etc. why aren't they heroes?
 
Valid point, but if we're going down that road, your opinion is no more valid then mine. Ergo, My opinion is just as justified as yours.

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Exactly. I just like arguing (And I think i'm right.)

Why is the law important?



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The law is important. Except this is the Wormverse, where the world is falling apart and monsters are slowly exterminating humanity. A compromise under extreme conditions with the upper end of the criminal underworld is better than having less fighters against S Class threats and having to waste the time and resources of the heroes.

So basically, as long as the society benefits or profits from said criminals activity, it's ok to sweep all their crimes under the rug then? Yes or no?

-Murderer walks from a crime scene past a cop and slips a money clip in the officer's hand while saying "You didn't see nothing."-

Ok, i've been trying to avoid the typical SV/B debate behavior, but you please fucking stop making false comparisons. There's a difference between criminals getting a reprieve from the law after helping against major threats to everyone and stopping major criminal operations that actually hurt people because their useful. and bribing a cop to get away with murder. You know this, fucking stop. That one cop getting bribed isn't society, and the thing I think that can be extracted from the Undersider isn't mere money. I don't think any amount of money should make up for crimes, but I do think risking your life when the world needs soldiers should be able to make up for crimes to a degree.


And what about the people who suffered and maybe even died because of said robbers? Do they not matter to you now? So really, it's not about criminals and authority anymore, it's just strictly about math, reducing human lives to just numbers then. Turning a blind eye to a certain 50 today because of a possible 100 tomorrow. In which case, morals, ethics, decency, compassion, justice, all of that should be abandoned and all that should matter is the numbers. Because we humans are apparently competently logical, objective, unfeeling race where even the base reason for why we do anything is nothing but lies because it can all be simply addressed with a calculator.

One: I don't agree with you about what Justice is. In my ideal world, everything would operate under the Rehabilitation system, not punishment.

Two: I do care about the people who got hurt. I also care about the people who were saved by them fighting the Endbringers, Nine, and Edchina, and those who can be saved later.

Three: It is about math, but because I care about human lives. In the end, if going easy on some minor criminals mean those criminals fight the Endbringers, and that fighting slows the Endbringers down, postpones their destructive rampages more than just the heroes fighting them, than that's worth it to me. I'd rather not waste the potential on some misguided idea of justice.

Four: If punishment is necessary, then I think fighting the Endbringers are enough to count as punishment for many small crimes.

Please stop making up bullshit about what you think I think.

If Worm demographics are anything like our own, there are much more 'petty' criminals than there are rapists and murderers. It could be argued that the only reason the authorities are 'incapable' is because those Robbers decided to be criminals, whittling away at resources, public perception of safety, engaging in active sabotage of those authorities and generally making it so that a cost-benefit analysis has to be run. We'll rob this bank while you're dealing with the kidnapper, mmk?

Because if they fight S Class threats, band together against the rapists and murderers, etc. why aren't they heroes?

So, their criminals, I still think their contributions are more important than past crimes. Plus, the authorities aren't just incapable of policing their cities, their incapable of fighting the existential threat alone, and that's not just because some random minor criminals robbing a bank and beating up some super heroes in the process.
 
Except this is the Wormverse, where the world is falling apart and monsters are slowly exterminating humanity. A compromise under extreme conditions with the upper end of the criminal underworld is better than having less fighters against S Class threats and having to waste the time and resources of the heroes.
So the law is not important then, yes or no? A criminal can't be kept in jail until an Endbringer attack and then let them loose on it?

I do think risking your life when the world needs soldiers should be able to make up for crimes to a degree.
So do you believe that forced enlistment into the military should be a new way to punish criminals, Yes or no? Or what if you don't want to fight Endbringers, should they suddenly face justice for their crimes? Is prison in Wormverse now supposed to be no more then forced recruitment into a suicide mission? is that not tantamount to a death sentence?

I'd rather not waste the potential on some misguided idea of justice.

Why have justice at all then? What would be the point?
 
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So the law is not important then, yes or no?

Law is important, but it is not an absolute, and especially not in the Wormverse.

So do you believe that forced enlistment into the military should be a new way to punish criminals, Yes or no?

If there was an actual major threat to my country or the world, I think allowing minor criminals to volunteer* to fight to reduce their sentences, potentially to nothing. Obviously, no such thing exists in the real world (Cause I live in America), but it does in the Wormverse.

Why have justice at all then? What would be the point?

One: All i've been saying applies to the Wormverse, where shit is fucked and compromises are necessary.

Two: I don't believe in punishment as justice as except as a means to an end.

Three: If the Undersiders or an other Villain group with similar circumstances after all the shit that plagues the world is resolved continue to not commit major crimes, i'd consider that justice. The crime has stopped, and they atoned by fighting the good fight.


*The Undersiders were never conscripted.
 
If a man commits murder, him donating to the church for twenty years after doesn't suddenly make that murder go away.

Well under a lot of religious and secular philosophies it goes a long way to doing so. Unless you mean in the medieval 'pay your way into heaven' then yeah that's terrible. But living a life dedicated to improving one's self/humanity making up for something horrible you regret is a pretty major part of a lot of belief systems.



That's the part of the issue. The Undersiders weren't taking over some corner of a failed state. They were taking over a large city in America.

There's a good argument to say the Wormverse USA is a failed state at that point. I mean look at the E88 alone. The PRT's inability to deal with them and stop them hitting random minorities, the fact that Kaiser has publicly operated for decades says they don't have rule of law in Brockton Bay. Not even getting into the ABB, Merchants, Coil, the Fallen or the S9. Or hell the Teeth or the March.

The Undersiders as Warlords aren't a perfect government, but honestly them uprising and rejecting Worm US authority isn't inherently a bad thing, as frankly the Worm US government doesn't really have a moral claim to legitimate government in Brockton Bay either. The Undersiders definitely provided better protection and disaster response, and in a few years may have matured to be better overall.

Also a lot of the argument against the Warlords is based on the idea that the previous authorities behaved a lot better. But honestly given what we know of BB, namely that their city is a shithole that makes the worst places in real life America compare nicely, their police force was probably less than upstanding. I mean the modern US police has major issues with violence and racism. The underfunded police force in a shithole of BB's magnitude partially controlled by Nazis? Holy shit.

And that's just the police, the public schools? Well outside of the wealthy suburbs who have Arcadia, we have Winslow. So they aren't really holding up on providing good education either.

So stealing, extortion, blackmail, torture, these are no longer crimes in your opinion?

They're certainly lower priority. Even in real life, kidnapping, rape (well on paper, a lot of police forces are terrible about dealing with it) and murder do rate higher than the above. Except for torture.


So the law is not important then, yes or no?

Who decides the law? It's not some sacrosanct thing handed down from on high (unless you're saying BB should be run under Jewish or Sharia law or something?), it's determined by whoever can enforce it. Which is debatable in Worm.

So do you believe that forced enlistment into the military should be a new way to punish criminals, Yes or no? Or what if you don't want to fight Endbringers, should they suddenly face justice for their crimes? Is prison in Wormverse now supposed to be no more then forced recruitment into a suicide mission? is that not tantamount to a death sentence?

I think the important moral part he was getting at was that choosing to do so of your own free will is an act that can be considered redemptive. Being forced into it doesn't count at all.
 
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Law is important, but it is not an absolute, and especially not in the Wormverse.
How do you decide when or not it's important? Who gets to make that call? Under what authority? It obviously wouldn't be right for the villains to call the shots in that case as it would be an unfair advantage for them.

Obviously, no such thing exists in the real world (Cause I live in America)
I'm surprised it doesn't XD

One: All i've been saying applies to the Wormverse, where shit is fucked and compromises are necessary.
So when exactly do you put your foot down? Where do the compromises stop and you draw the line?

Two: I don't believe in punishment as justice as except as a means to an end.
So how do you define justice then?

But living a life dedicated to improving one's self/humanity making up for something horrible you regret is a pretty major part of a lot of belief systems.

But in the end, its not up to the criminal themselves to decide when they are suddenly "forgiven".

The Undersiders as Warlords aren't a perfect government, but honestly them uprising and rejecting US authority isn't inherently a bad thing, as frankly the US government doesn't really have a moral claim to legitimate government in Brockton Bay either. The Undersiders definitely provided better protection and disaster response, and in a few years may have matured to be better overall.

Keep in mind, at best you're only talking about Taylor's area. The rest of their areas weren't nearly as good.

Also a lot of the argument against the Warlords is based on the idea that the previous authorities behaved a lot better. But honestly given what we know of BB, namely that their city is a shithole that makes the worst places in real life American compare nicely, their police force was probably less upstanding and more like that police force in Mexico that gave that bus of student protestors to the Cartels. I mean the modern US police has major issues with violence and racism. The underfunded police force in a shithole of BB's magnitude partially controlled by Nazis? Holy shit.

So then why keep the city around? Wouldn't it make more sense after Levi's attack to just move everyone out of said shithole like the Mayor planned? Instead the better idea is for Taylor to KEEP everyone in said shithole of a city?

They're certainly lower priority. Even in real life, kidnapping, rape (well on paper, a lot of police forces are terrible about dealing with it) and murder do rate higher than the above. Except for torture.

They're still crimes.

Who decides the law? It's not some magical thing handed down from on high (unless you're saying BB should be run under Jewish or Sharia law or something?), it's determined by whoever can enforce it. Which is debatable in Worm.

And this is supposed to be a good thing? Keep in mind, As "Good" as Taylor is, she's still just a teenager with clearly a ton of mental and emotional issues that clearly make her a very unstable person. That's not exactly someone that sounds very trustworthy as a lawmaker.

I think the important moral part he was getting at was that choosing to do so of your own free will is an act that can be considered redemptive.

But that's arguable as well. A villain could choose to find an Endbringer not because of wanting to save people, but just because he doesn't wanna lose profits in the potential disaster.
 
So, their criminals, I still think their contributions are more important than past crimes. Plus, the authorities aren't just incapable of policing their cities, their incapable of fighting the existential threat alone, and that's not just because some random minor criminals robbing a bank and beating up some super heroes in the process.
No, but you do have the 'helpful' criminals for the most part not lifting a finger until it affects them directly. Leviathan attacking Singapore or something, heroes and authorities help for the good of all. Most criminals don't. Leviathan attacking Brockton Bay where they live? Only lifting a finger for your direct benefit, for good or ill, is barely commendable, certainly not enough for waiving due process and the consequences thereof. There is a reason why the Wormverse allows for villain 'flipping,' extralegal options such as Wards instead of Juvenile Detention, etc. There already is leeway for those on the wrong side of the law, but willing to turn over a new leaf.

Those who want to remain criminals should be treated like criminals.

Everything else aside, you're coming from an inherently flawed assumption. Because in the end, it wasn't brute force. It wasn't numbers. That's what Cauldron thought and they were wrong. It was organization. People working together. Information.

Villains take advantage of the weak spots in society, prey on it, widen it to their benefit, actively sabotage attempts to fix it. Villains contribute to anarchy. Banding together in small groups, tribalism, "screw you, I got mine," eroding morale. All of which are detrimental to the end goal of survival. You don't want that continuing. There is a reason why "warlords" are third world countries, notoriously unstable and those at the bottom suffer.

If it's a numbers game, like you seem to want to make it, you get rid of the villains.
So stealing, extortion, blackmail, torture, these are no longer crimes in your opinion?
Did you quote the wrong person? Because I was saying that villains that want to stay villains...probably should be treated like villains.
 
Those who want to remain criminals should be treated like criminals.
And Taylor and the rest DID so for months. So what exactly is the problem here then?

Villains take advantage of the weak spots in society, prey on it, widen it to their benefit, actively sabotage attempts to fix it. Villains contribute to anarchy. Banding together in small groups, tribalism, "screw you, I got mine," eroding morale. All of which are detrimental to the end goal of survival.
By who's definition of survival? By who's measure of what is and what is not acceptable?

If it's a numbers game, like you seem to want to make it, you get rid of the villains.
I've been all for getting rid of all the villains from the start.
 
How do you decide when or not it's important? Who gets to make that call? Under what authority? It obviously wouldn't be right for the villains to call the shots in that case as it would be an unfair advantage for them.


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I will note that the case of the Undersiders is under very specific circumstances:

1: Their crimes before Taylor defected were major, but they were (IMO, Partially) justified in the really bad shit's case, not intentional, or otherwise relatively minor by Villain standards.

2: They're really bad crimes declined as they did more acts like fighting the S Class threats and other genuinely altruistic stuff (Freeing Dinah, Taylor's acts towards her territory).

3: They were proven fighters.

4: They could probably be somewhat be relied upon to not go psycho without provocation.

None of these apply to say...the ABB or E88. That's my criteria.

I'm surprised it doesn't XD


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I'd generally see a genuine threat worthy of offering pardons to Volunteers as an active threat capable and willing of killing tens or hundreds of thousands of people who can be fought effectively by the Volunteers and whom is big enough of a threat that the volunteers are needed or an actual help.

So when exactly do you put your foot down? Where do the compromises stop and you draw the line?


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People like the ABB or E88 or the Teeth. Villains with large bodycounts of innocents who can't be relied upon to not go psychotic. Basically, the unreasonable ones who can't be bargained with and the true monsters. And when the threat stops of course, cause then the villains aren't necessary anymore.

So how do you define justice then?

When the major crimes I actually care about (I don't give a shit about a lot of minor crimes) stop, the people have made some genuine efforts to do good or are productive members of society, and they aren't monsters. Monsters need to be contained because they cannot be trusted and aren't rational.

For a real world example, say you have a guy who robbed a bank and assaulted a cop in the process of escape a year ago (And didn't kill anyone). Since then, he's stopped doing major crimes done something to contribute to society. Founded a company, got a degree and became a doctor or lawyer, or dedicated himself to public works. I don't see the necessity of punishing that guy, beyond possibly fining him for the proceeds of the bank robbery, since that's much more practical than doing the same to the Undersiders.

The scale of the crime isn't the same, but the scale of the redemption isn't either (Because Endbringers don't exist IRL).

Justice for me is complicated. For the most basic i'd put it, the end of the offending behavior and something to pay back for the crime.

No, but you do have the 'helpful' criminals for the most part not lifting a finger until it affects them directly. Leviathan attacking Singapore or something, heroes and authorities help for the good of all. Most criminals don't. Leviathan attacking Brockton Bay where they live? Only lifting a finger for your direct benefit, for good or ill, is barely commendable, certainly not enough for waiving due process and the consequences thereof. There is a reason why the Wormverse allows for villain 'flipping,' extralegal options such as Wards instead of Juvenile Detention, etc. There already is leeway for those on the wrong side of the law, but willing to turn over a new leaf.


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I was talking about the Undersiders after Taylor made her deal. The same Undersiders that went to the PRT the instant they recognized the threat from Edchina, and who traveled half way across the world to fight Behemoth in India. The standards i'm talking about don't apply to all criminals who fight S Class threats, just a small percentage of them.

Everything else aside, you're coming from an inherently flawed assumption. Because in the end, it wasn't brute force. It wasn't numbers. That's what Cauldron thought and they were wrong. It was organization. People working together. Information.

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I'm looking at it from an in universe moral perspective, and that means actually looking at it from the perspective of the people involved. Otherwise the best, the most moral choice is to munchkin the fuck out of a bunch of different powers using OOC knowledge to smash Zion and the Endbringers from surprise, then steamroll the remaining villains who don't surrender before your might.
Villains take advantage of the weak spots in society, prey on it, widen it to their benefit, actively sabotage attempts to fix it. Villains contribute to anarchy. Banding together in small groups, tribalism, "screw you, I got mine," eroding morale. All of which are detrimental to the end goal of survival. You don't want that continuing. There is a reason why "warlords" are third world countries, notoriously unstable and those at the bottom suffer.
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Except again i'm talking about the Undersiders after Edchina and Taylor's deal, who are all intents and purposes retired from active villainy and continued to fight the Endbringers.
 
1: Their crimes before Taylor defected were major, but they were (IMO, Partially) justified in the really bad shit's case, not intentional, or otherwise relatively minor by Villain standards.

2: They're really bad crimes declined as they did more acts like fighting the S Class threats and other genuinely altruistic stuff (Freeing Dinah, Taylor's acts towards her territory).

3: They were proven fighters.

4: They could probably be somewhat be relied upon to not go psycho without provocation.
But again, it's still basically ignoring/sweeping crimes right under the rug to the point that said laws might as well not exist.

And when the threat stops of course, cause then the villains aren't necessary anymore.
Don't start backpedaling here. YOU said that participating in said fights, it counts as redemption. But now you're saying when the threat is over, said villains aren't necessary anymore? Which is it?

For a real world example, say you have a guy who robbed a bank and assaulted a cop in the process of escape a year ago (And didn't kill anyone). Since then, he's stopped doing major crimes done something to contribute to society. Founded a company, got a degree and became a doctor or lawyer, or dedicated himself to public works. I don't see the necessity of punishing that guy, beyond possibly fining him for the proceeds of the bank robbery, since that's much more practical than doing the same to the Undersiders.

What if the cop was your father? What if the cop didn't die, but was permanently disabled? What if the bank takes so much damage and loss that they have to recoup their losses by giving out layoffs, ruining more lives in the process? What if the money stolen exchanges hands towards people who either intentionally or even unintentionally fuck up a lot of lives?

There's seriously a lot of underlying factors you're ignoring here.

the end of the offending behavior and something to pay back for the crime.
And what if the offending crime stops, but the criminal refuses to pay back for said crime?

The same Undersiders that went to the PRT the instant they recognized the threat from Edchina

Try putting it this way.

You're part of a unit made for keeping peace in a city. And one day this new gang starts doing all sorts of crap, unable to be caught and generally get a lot of power in the underworld. One day, a bigger criminal rolls in and said gang comes in and says they want to help. Even if you needed the help, what makes you think for one second you can actually TRUST them? (This is actually something i HATED from the story, Taylor clearly keeps doing untrustworthy things and then turns around saying the Heroes should be the ones to offer trust)

I'm looking at it from an in universe moral perspective

If we're talking from an universal perspective, a single, insignificant blue planet means nothing.
 
You're part of a unit made for keeping peace in a city. And one day this new gang starts doing all sorts of crap, unable to be caught and generally get a lot of power in the underworld. One day, a bigger criminal rolls in and said gang comes in and says they want to help. Even if you needed the help, what makes you think for one second you can actually TRUST them? (This is actually something i HATED from the story, Taylor clearly keeps doing untrustworthy things and then turns around saying the Heroes should be the ones to offer trust).

Considering that the first few heroes she ever interacted with were Armsmaster (who manipulated her into letting him take credit for catching Lung, left her out to dry when Bakuda showed up, and then broke the Endbringer truce against her for similar reasons), and the New Wave sisters (who spitefully threatened death or grievous bodily harm just because the Undersiders annoyed them), I'd say the law needs to earn her trust back just as much as she needs to earn theirs.
 
But in the end, its not up to the criminal themselves to decide when they are suddenly "forgiven".

Who decides then? Society? Your parents? Your god or gods? A philosopher? Yourself?

Under a number of moralities, yes you decide when you are forgiven as it is your own forgiveness or your own acceptance that is important. Under others it is your god's, and you won't know if you have that until you die, though you can have faith that what you have done is enough to earn it.

Really when it gets down to it morality is determined by you, whether you choose to develop a personal morality through philosophy, to have faith in a religion or just not really think about it and go with your gut/what other people tell you.

Society isn't some monolith morality wise either, I'm sure everyone can think of some people who are in gaol or dead they think shouldn't and plenty who are free who should be in gaol or dead.


And this is supposed to be a good thing? Keep in mind, As "Good" as Taylor is, she's still just a teenager with clearly a ton of mental and emotional issues that clearly make her a very unstable person. That's not exactly someone that sounds very trustworthy as a lawmaker.

Neither is Piggott, Tagg, the incredibly corrupt government or Cauldron. Worm BB does not have a lot of choices.

I've been all for getting rid of all the villains from the start.

And then we all die because everyone who is morally incompatible with the PRT has to go straight to open violence. And these people are not all going to be evil. There's also going to be people with views contrary to society who decide to fight. Or who are forced into opposition by forces outside their control.

And they'd all be going all out from the start. It would be bedlam.

And no one but each city's local heroes shows up for Endbringer fights because the heroes can't abandon their posts as otherwise the villains will run riot. And then all the defenders get picked off while recovering by the local villains. And then the city falls apart until it's violently retaken.

And if we survive that Scion wins because of a lack of manpower.

Edit:
This is actually something i HATED from the story, Taylor clearly keeps doing untrustworthy things and then turns around saying the Heroes should be the ones to offer trust

This is right, but you shouldn't be pissed, this fits Taylor. She is trust issues, the character.

OTOH the PRT keeps saying trust them to handle shit and people keep getting lynched, Shadow Stalker keeps being Shadow Stalker and Armsmaster breaks the truce.
 
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And then we all die because everyone who is morally incompatible with the PRT has to go straight to open violence. And these people are not all going to be evil. There's also going to be people with views contrary to society who decide to fight. Or who are forced into opposition by forces outside their control.

And they'd all be going all out from the start. It would be bedlam.

And no one but each city's local heroes shows up for Endbringer fights because the heroes can't abandon their posts as otherwise the villains will run riot. And then all the defenders get picked off while recovering by the local villains. And then the city falls apart until it's violently retaken.

And if we survive that Scion wins because of a lack of manpower.
Fine. Get rid of the PRT/Protectorate altogether then. Clearly just have Taylor follow through on her threat when she turned herself in and just expose them all and let them die out as an organization altogether. Let the villains run everything since clearly the law is nothing more then a hindrance.
 
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