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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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Red Orion said:
So a few questions:
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Just my two cents:

1. It should work fine, since there are plenty of Mages in Awakening that interpret their Path through a scientific/technomagic lens, and the game is all about hubris and obsession. But it has a lot less support for just building things afaik, since no wonder spheres and everything is just willworking + Yantras for the most part. You need decent Prime just to make imbued objects, or tinkering with matter to make cool machines.

2. Paradox is roughly the same with some differences. Reality Zones don't exist, so as long as no sleeper witnesses or no extra reach or no pre-existing paradox on the scene, spells incur no paradox. Anything besides a bog-standard mortal with no supernatural abilities doesn't count as a sleeper. You can still do "coincidental" spells, though they aren't called that, and Legacies let you use some spells as much as you want with zero risk of paradox. Also when you incur paradox you can choose to contain it (and suffer the penalties) or release it (and make it everyone else's problem).

2b. I don't know, I'm not good at thinking about game balance.
 
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Red Orion said:
So me and a couple of friends want to play a mad scientist game. I've heard really good things about the new Mage. So a few questions:

1. Does this sound like the kind of game the system can support with a little hacking? What I have heard about mysteries feels like it would fit mad scientists pretty well, as does the idea of Reach pushing you to be more hubristic.
2. How does Paradox work? Is it like in Ascension?
2b. If so, would removing the vulgar/coincidental mechanic break things too much? One of the fun things about mad scientists is that they are loud. None of really want to be subtle. We want to make giant death rays and dog people and fight adventures on top of battle blimps.
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1. You could probably reskin the magic system to be about doing mad science rather than casting spells. You'd need to do a little hacking depending on what you're going for, but at the very least the division of effects between Arcana and the Practices should help you mechanize what someone should be capable of with mad science. Like, I'd heavily tweak the actual spellcasting rolls to reflect them being building weird inventions, but being able to go "Dr. Amazo has Mind 4, Life 2, Forces 1, so these are the effects he can create with his devices" should work really nicely.

2. Awakening's version of Paradox would actually work really well with a mad science hack. Paradox in Awakening isn't like Ascension, especially in 2e. It's much more about your reach exceeding your grasp. Basically, you can voluntarily risk paradox in order to make your spells bigger or more powerful. You still risk paradox if Sleepers see obvious magic, but that's not really the main focus anymore. The primary paradox penalty is the gm getting to spend successes on the paradox roll to change factors of the spell, such as its potency or target, which would work really nicely to represent an invention going haywire. I honestly think paradox could do a lot to enhance the mad science vibe.

2b. In 2e, there is no vulgar/coincidental mechanic, Sleepers witnessing obvious magic just adds dice to the paradox roll. You can easily cut this mechanic without breaking the rest of the game. It wouldn't even really do much to change how paradox works, since again, paradox is now primarily about biting off more than you can chew.

Also, if you're going for mad science and looking at nWoD stuff, you might want to take a look at the fan game Genius: the Transgression. I don't have any experience with it so I can't personally vouch for it, but it's a game about being mad scientists, so even if it's not what you're going for it might have ideas you can steal. I'm pretty sure it's written with the 1e nWoD rules rather than 2e, though, so just be mindful of that.
 
Don Alverzo said:
1. You could probably reskin the magic system to be about doing mad science rather than casting spells. You'd need to do a little hacking depending on what you're going for, but at the very least the division of effects between Arcana and the Practices should help you mechanize what someone should be capable of with mad science. Like, I'd heavily tweak the actual spellcasting rolls to reflect them being building weird inventions, but being able to go "Dr. Amazo has Mind 4, Life 2, Forces 1, so these are the effects he can create with his devices" should work really nicely.

2. Awakening's version of Paradox would actually work really well with a mad science hack. Paradox in Awakening isn't like Ascension, especially in 2e. It's much more about your reach exceeding your grasp. Basically, you can voluntarily risk paradox in order to make your spells bigger or more powerful. You still risk paradox if Sleepers see obvious magic, but that's not really the main focus anymore. The primary paradox penalty is the gm getting to spend successes on the paradox roll to change factors of the spell, such as its potency or target, which would work really nicely to represent an invention going haywire. I honestly think paradox could do a lot to enhance the mad science vibe.

2b. In 2e, there is no vulgar/coincidental mechanic, Sleepers witnessing obvious magic just adds dice to the paradox roll. You can easily cut this mechanic without breaking the rest of the game. It wouldn't even really do much to change how paradox works, since again, paradox is now primarily about biting off more than you can chew.

Also, if you're going for mad science and looking at nWoD stuff, you might want to take a look at the fan game Genius: the Transgression. I don't have any experience with it so I can't personally vouch for it, but it's a game about being mad scientists, so even if it's not what you're going for it might have ideas you can steal. I'm pretty sure it's written with the 1e nWoD rules rather than 2e, though, so just be mindful of that.
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1. Having done a bit more research (don't have the book yet), I'm thinking I'll basically just make it so you need a relevant foci to cast any spells (so a laser gun to cast shoot laser) which they can build in their off time. They can of course make changes on the fly to use the devices for other purposes, such as repurposing the power core to create an energy shield instead or lowering the power output to steathily cut through a lock, but make it so that the more extreme the change the higher the paradox. This would represent how the more hastily they make things the more likely they are to fail.
1b. Not sure how much I want to mechanize that though. Adding a kitbash mechanic like that means the DM has to handwave a lot more.
1c. Also, mechanics for making things will be hard. I could just treat each spell as them building a machine on the spot but IDK. Open for suggestions on this.

2. Agreed. I've been reading up more on it, and the whole "reaching to far, taking risks to make the spell more potent" thing really feels very mad sciency.

2b. In that case, I'll probably just cut it. It adds nothing for this particular game.

I've looked at Genius before, and while it looked fun, several of my more mechanically inclined friends have told me its pretty badly made.
 
Red Orion said:
1c. Also, mechanics for making things will be hard. I could just treat each spell as them building a machine on the spot but IDK. Open for suggestions on this.
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So just spitballing here, but one option would be to say you have to use ritual casting time for most spells you want to cast (to represent frantically inventing something), then give each player a small library of spells they're allowed to cast at instant speed to represent devices they've built ahead of time. This lets people carry around their death ray and use it whenever they want, but if they decide they need a special antigrav device that they haven't prepared ahead of time they have to actually take the time to build it. They can swap out spells in their library during downtime, as they have the time to invent new dedicated devices.

For a kitbashing mechanic, it might be a good idea to just repurpose the Yantra rules. Instead of getting a bonus to your spellcasting roll for chanting in High Speech while gesturing with a golden ritual dagger, you get a bonus for replacing the particle accelerator of your deathray with the inhibitor matrix from your antigrav belt. You probably need some sort of Yantra replacement anyway, just for balance purposes, and the Yantra rules primarily exist to encourage flavorful spellcasting, so it makes sense to replace them with something that encourages flavorful mad science.

Another option is to just run the spellcasting rules as normal, and every spell they cast at instant speed is revealing a device they just so happened to have brought with them ("Oh no, I've been shot! Good thing I've still got a few doses of my rapid regeneration serum"). This option is a lot pulpier and maybe not as satisfying due to the implied retconning, but it does mean a lot less mechanical fiddling.
 
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Cultist Simulator mechanics
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    • So, due to a complex series of circumstances I ended up basically writing up mechanics for playing a character from the Weather Factory game Cultist Simulator
    in Chronicles of Darkness.

    Now, I know we have more than enough cultists around these parts, but if nothing else Cultist Simulator has a strong atmosphere and thematics to it. Characters begin as something closest to mortal occultists, but through dedication to the secret Principles of the world, and exploration of the Mansus - sometimes called the House of the Sun - which stands in dreams and perhaps service to the Hours, the secret gods which dwell there, they can become rather more than merely mortal.

    The core of the thing is playable, but I need ideas for Merits and rituals to flesh it out more, as well as general second opinions on mechanics. I'm more than happy to discuss it here or in the CultSim Discord, and to field ideas.

    If you're at all interested, please take a look at the document linked here, and leave comments or posts on the thread.
     
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    • QafianSage said:
    So, due to a complex series of circumstances I ended up basically writing up mechanics for playing a character from the Weather Factory game Cultist Simulator
    in Chronicles of Darkness.

    Now, I know we have more than enough cultists around these parts, but if nothing else Cultist Simulator has a strong atmosphere and thematics to it. Characters begin as something closest to mortal occultists, but through dedication to the secret Principles of the world, and exploration of the Mansus - sometimes called the House of the Sun - which stands in dreams and perhaps service to the Hours, the secret gods which dwell there, they can become rather more than merely mortal.

    The core of the thing is playable, but I need ideas for Merits and rituals to flesh it out more, as well as general second opinions on mechanics. I'm more than happy to discuss it here or in the CultSim Discord, and to field ideas.

    If you're at all interested, please take a look at the document linked here, and leave comments or posts on the thread.
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    Do you have a mechanic planned for the subversion of influences? Forge -> Edge -> Winter?
     
    Walker said:
    Do you have a mechanic planned for the subversion of influences? Forge -> Edge -> Winter?
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    Sort of? If it ends up in the thing, it'll be a special ritual. However, I'm not sure it should be in a TTRPG version of CultSim. It exists in the original mostly as a way to counter RNGsus being a bitch sometimes, but in a tabletop game A) you're not at the whim of RNG when it comes to what Influences you find and B) you're going to be playing with others, or at the very least with NPCs, and in those circumstances I was thinking it might be more interesting to have influences be non-fungible, but rather serving as a form of currency between practitioners. Say you happen across a Forge Influence, but you only know Grail magic. You can trade that Influence to a friend or acquaintance for help, or an Influence of theirs and so on.

    But, as I say, it's something which is currently the subject of debate.
     
    GardenerBriareus said:
    (For the uninitiated, the Macellarius are a Ventrue bloodline of morbidly obese "gourmands" who get very creepily particular about their meals and, whenever possible, indulge in their bloodline's gift of being able to digest the entirety of the human body, not merely the blood. Yes, this means they prefer to feed by devouring a live victim one mouthful at a time. Yes, their section has art of a Macellarius blithely looking over the terrified child presented for his start-of-the-evening snack by a butler. Yes, there is also art of a Macellarius looking up from (CW: Cannibalism)the partially-excavated ribcage of a very naked, very dead woman and idly mopping his brow with a handkerchief in his free hand, the one not holding his meal's remaining leg out of the way of h- )

    ...I've lost my original train of thought.
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    I know this post was a while ago, but i only just really found out about this clan.

    Wonder if theres a way to make not so creepy?
    They seem like an offshoot of the Nagaraja, although given that they have the ability to turn their vitae acidic, maybe a merger of that and the Tzimisce or the Tremere clan?

    How would their discipline work if taught to others? because if it wouldn't give the curse as well, i could see other clans acquiring it and teaching it among themselves as it seems like there aren't really any downsides.

    Also, how was the Vampire Translation guide received?
    it sounds useful in bringing aspects from one setting to the other...
     
    Don Alverzo said:
    I don't doubt that there are versions of the 9/11 conspiracy theory that are antisemitic. However, I don't think 9/11 trutherism is inexorably linked to antisemitism like some other conspiracy theories. I'm, like, 90% sure that "Loose Change," the big 9/11 truther "documentary" that really exploded the movement, doesn't mention Israel or Mossad at all. Antisemitism is so common in conspiratorial circles that any conspiracy theory will have versions that somehow blame "the Jews." That doesn't make every conspiracy theory fundamentally antisemitic.
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    I will see a lot of truthter feel less anti semtic and more anti american or anti US or anti goverment, a distrust of it was already brewing in the 90 and mage clearly tap into that in a sort of X files vibes that was popular, in that way mages can be see as sort underdog protagonist in that regard: the conspiracy theory that wants to strike against the men!.....

    The fact this turn out like it did show how much stuff have change after that.
     
    QafianSage said:
    So, due to a complex series of circumstances I ended up basically writing up mechanics for playing a character from the Weather Factory game Cultist Simulator
    in Chronicles of Darkness.

    Now, I know we have more than enough cultists around these parts, but if nothing else Cultist Simulator has a strong atmosphere and thematics to it. Characters begin as something closest to mortal occultists, but through dedication to the secret Principles of the world, and exploration of the Mansus - sometimes called the House of the Sun - which stands in dreams and perhaps service to the Hours, the secret gods which dwell there, they can become rather more than merely mortal.

    The core of the thing is playable, but I need ideas for Merits and rituals to flesh it out more, as well as general second opinions on mechanics. I'm more than happy to discuss it here or in the CultSim Discord, and to field ideas.

    If you're at all interested, please take a look at the document linked here, and leave comments or posts on the thread.
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    As I'm playing with the mechanics for Influence subversion, I'm looking at the way Influences work in terms of the way they degrade even when held, and I'm worried it's an element of bookkeeping which doesn't really need to be there. What are your opinions on the matter?
     
    QafianSage said:
    As I'm playing with the mechanics for Influence subversion, I'm looking at the way Influences work in terms of the way they degrade even when held, and I'm worried it's an element of bookkeeping which doesn't really need to be there. What are your opinions on the matter?
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    The thing I like about Influences degrading, at least in the rules you've written, is it's something that encourages players to be active and constantly getting into trouble. You can't hoard resources easily, the best you can do is control access to a Hallow. Even if you do control a Hallow, that's a source of potential plothooks for the GM. That said, I get what you're saying about bookkeeping. Studiously tracking how much time has passed is annoying, especially as that timescale grows longer.

    One possibility is to tweak it such that Influence degradation is tied to dramatic time instead of objective time (i.e. instead of days and weeks, it's scenes and chapters). "Use this by the end of this scene" or "use this by the end of our gaming session today" are a lot easier to keep track of then "use this by the end of the in-game month." It also introduces a little bit of GM fiat that can help fudge things towards being less of a headache.

    It might also help to get rid of the Insight scaling. I get why it's there, but it just adds another element of bookkeeping and the increasing Synergy and Principle ratings are already enough of a reward for increasing Insight. If you do that, you can have a standard timescale of, say, a chapter or a week or something that influences typically degrade over, but also include a vague "Influences degrade if not used, but the time it takes can vary. Some last only a few moments, while some last years." This lets the GM bend the Influence degradation to serve the plot or fudge things to make the bookkeeping easier. After all, the GM is typically going to know what the players are planning to do with each Influence they capture and is in a position to make judgement calls about it, whereas a table in the rulebook isn't.
     
    Don Alverzo said:
    One possibility is to tweak it such that Influence degradation is tied to dramatic time instead of objective time (i.e. instead of days and weeks, it's scenes and chapters). "Use this by the end of this scene" or "use this by the end of our gaming session today" are a lot easier to keep track of then "use this by the end of the in-game month." It also introduces a little bit of GM fiat that can help fudge things towards being less of a headache.
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    This is honestly a really great idea. Thanks very much for that. Though I'll probably throw in a sidebar to the effect of 'If PCs get a hold of an Influence towards the end of a session, it's probably best to let them keep it for the next Chapter'.

    Don Alverzo said:
    It might also help to get rid of the Insight scaling. I get why it's there, but it just adds another element of bookkeeping and the increasing Synergy and Principle ratings are already enough of a reward for increasing Insight. If you do that, you can have a standard timescale of, say, a chapter or a week or something that influences typically degrade over, but also include a vague "Influences degrade if not used, but the time it takes can vary. Some last only a few moments, while some last years." This lets the GM bend the Influence degradation to serve the plot or fudge things to make the bookkeeping easier. After all, the GM is typically going to know what the players are planning to do with each Influence they capture and is in a position to make judgement calls about it, whereas a table in the rulebook isn't.
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    The only trouble with this is essentially the issue of it being difficult for players to know whether they'll be able to hang onto their power for long enough to do the ritual they want, or even possibly to drag it all the way back to reality to do something with.
     
    QafianSage said:
    This is honestly a really great idea. Thanks very much for that. Though I'll probably throw in a sidebar to the effect of 'If PCs get a hold of an Influence towards the end of a session, it's probably best to let them keep it for the next Chapter'.


    The only trouble with this is essentially the issue of it being difficult for players to know whether they'll be able to hang onto their power for long enough to do the ritual they want, or even possibly to drag it all the way back to reality to do something with.
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    I mean, the point of making the Influence degradation more variable isn't to make those sorts of things uncertain, it's to make them more certain. The idea would be that the variable length is bent by the GM to serve the purposes of the story. Since the players and GM are in constant communication, the GM can just say "yeah, you think the Influence will last long enough for your plan to work" or "no, you don't think that will work."

    Obviously you wouldn't go too far with this concept, you'd want a relatively fixed length of time that's the "standard" so everyone has a rough idea of what they're working with and what would be considered reasonable, but leaving some room to fudge things means you don't have to worry too much about tracking the precise passage of time (unless it would be dramatically appropriate). I wouldn't make GM fiat the sole way that Influence degradation works, but a little sidebar of "hey, GM, feel free to fudge this if it's giving everyone a headache/it's about to make something dumb happen" would go a long way.

    Granted, this is much less important if you tie degradation to dramatic timescales, since those have GM arbitration baked in.
     
    Don Alverzo said:
    I mean, the point of making the Influence degradation more variable isn't to make those sorts of things uncertain, it's to make them more certain. The idea would be that the variable length is bent by the GM to serve the purposes of the story. Since the players and GM are in constant communication, the GM can just say "yeah, you think the Influence will last long enough for your plan to work" or "no, you don't think that will work."

    Obviously you wouldn't go too far with this concept, you'd want a relatively fixed length of time that's the "standard" so everyone has a rough idea of what they're working with and what would be considered reasonable, but leaving some room to fudge things means you don't have to worry too much about tracking the precise passage of time (unless it would be dramatically appropriate). I wouldn't make GM fiat the sole way that Influence degradation works, but a little sidebar of "hey, GM, feel free to fudge this if it's giving everyone a headache/it's about to make something dumb happen" would go a long way.

    Granted, this is much less important if you tie degradation to dramatic timescales, since those have GM arbitration baked in.
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    Again, that's good stuff. I've made some changes to how the Influences work - feel free to take a look and tell me what you think.
     
    QafianSage said:
    Again, that's good stuff. I've made some changes to how the Influences work - feel free to take a look and tell me what you think.
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    Yeah, I like those changes. It cuts down on the bookkeeping tremendously while still keeping to the way that Influences tend to be a sort of ephemeral "use it or lose it" type thing in Cultist Sim.
     
    Don Alverzo said:
    Yeah, I like those changes. It cuts down on the bookkeeping tremendously while still keeping to the way that Influences tend to be a sort of ephemeral "use it or lose it" type thing in Cultist Sim.
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    Good to hear. I'm just working on Influence subversion now. If anyone could check over it for mechanical weirdness or unintended implications, I'd be very grateful.

    Now with added colors! I know that Knock isn't usually in the main cycle, but I think it makes more sense in this game for it to be in there, to balance it with the other Principles without the pressures of the video game.
     
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    I've added rules to the document for the entities which inhabit the Mansus - King Crucible, Maids-in-the-Mirror and the like - added mechanics for Influence subversion and thrown in some stats for a Caligine. I'd appreciate if anyone could look over the mechanics for Eidolons to see if there's any glaring issues there.

    Also, @Aleph, would it be possible to get this post threadmarked?
     
    QafianSage said:
    snip snip
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    Regarding this, I've added in a subsystem for Lore, which works somewhat similarly to Arcane Experience in Mage. The idea is that PCs go out and hunt down Scraps, which have tags related to up to three Principles. Five Scraps which all share a tag may be combined into a Lore of that Principle (three Knock scraps, a Knock/Forge scrap and a Knock/Winter scrap could be assembled into a Knock Lore, for instance, but not a Forge or a Winter Lore), which may then be spent to raise your Principles, to buy supernatural Merits or mundane ones appropriate to a given Principle (e.g. you could probably use Lantern Lore to buy Library or Encyclopedic Knowledge, Heart for Allies or Safe Place and so on) or to adapt rituals. Scraps can be traded between players, but Lores can't be.

    Also, I added the possibility of Secret Histories Scraps, Lore and Merits. You don't get Secret Histories Influences or Principle dots, but I liked the idea of at least being able to do stuff with Merits with knowledge of that sort of thing. Any ideas for what those Merits might be are also welcome

    Insight has also been revised so that a dot of Insight only gives you one dot to put into Principles; the rest has to be bought with Lore. I am a little worried that Insight isn't all that impactful besides serving as Supernatural Tolerance and capping Principles, but you're not buying it with Experience or Lore, so it's not a purchase which has to be weighed against anything else.
     
    Razios said:
    I will see a lot of truthter feel less anti semtic and more anti american or anti US or anti goverment, a distrust of it was already brewing in the 90 and mage clearly tap into that in a sort of X files vibes that was popular, in that way mages can be see as sort underdog protagonist in that regard: the conspiracy theory that wants to strike against the men!.....
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    You can be both Anti-American and anti-Semitic,see people that think America is a Jewish pawn of imperialism because The US Government supports Israel.
     
    The most antisemitic part currently is Book of the Fallen (Background for the Nephandi for Mage 20th Anniversary Edition)
     
    Rakaziel said:
    Charles put it best:

    DriveThruRPG.com - M20 Book of the Fallen Reviews

    www.drivethrurpg.com www.drivethrurpg.com

    tl;dr : They lifted Jewish mysticism more or less wholesale and used it as the basis for the metaphysics of their eldritch satanist mages (as opposed to their regular mages) - names included.
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    Oh that is racist. Like their portrayal of Aztec mystism as being entirely based on human sacrifice (it was not, not that it wasn't a part of their culture but it played a small part).
     
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