Question for the rest of the thread. Should I get the M20 How do you DO that books? I've been asked by my local gaming store to teach people oMage, so any recommendations would be appreciated.
It's... hm. I personally wouldn't spend money on it, having read through a copy a friend let me look at. That said...

It does offer a potential idea-base for rotes, and several bits that put numbers to successes. The work itself is overlong due to the same editing-free issues that M20 core had, and you should watch out for... well, a lot of Sphere bloat. It tries to cram in additional Spheres for Effects that might have a tangential relevance and then make them required. This is especially evident in places like the rote to make a Horizon Realm, which includes so many Spheres at Master- or Adept-level that it's a wonder that anybody has managed to make a Horizon Realm in the entire history of the setting. Presume that every effect is taking the absolute maximum requirements the author thought they could get away with assigning, and sometimes more.

Also, for Autochthon's sake don't show the actual book contents to people unless you're fairly sure they're willing to have a critical eye towards the actual statements.

In effect, it's Phil Brucato's personal rulings on how to resolve a bunch of classic effects, with all the 2Eisms and disregard for how many Sphere dots characters actually get which that implies. Keep that in mind, use it primarily as an idea-base for your own rulings, tell the other people to keep that in mind, and you can possibly get use out of the sections and ideas.

And make sure you have a looooot of time available to munge through the book. It's unnecessarily big.

Note that the player I introduced to the book never actually managed to read it (because size) so I have no idea what the knock-on effects on the players' psyches would be. You are entering Highly Experimental territory, Citizen; godspeed.
 
Reading @notanautomaton's stuff I was thinking about basically a more drastic nuAscension.

I don't think a single canon explanation is necessary for a nAscension, or even desirable. Instead, it should be a toolkit, like Grim War, which provided options and plot hooks for every single faction in the setting being heroes, questionable shades of grey, or villains. The setting itself is basically "the modern day, but with wizards and paradigm responsible for stuff." This leads you to have a very good level of room as to who is actually responsible for what. The second thing is I kind of dislike the bipolar nature of mage-there are two superpowers, the Technos and the Trads, they fight (sometimes like NATO and the USSR, sometimes like WW2).

What I'd prefer is that the Ascension War is a multipolar conflict, like The Great Game on steroids or a multiplayer RTS clusterfuck. You have large, powerful factions which keep making temporary alliances as goals tie together, drifting apart, and this political game shapes consensus. It's no longer Wizard Democrats versus Republican Witches or whatever, but instead a dynamic alliance system makes it more plausible that these powerful forces both aren't shaping most of society and leaves room to explain why the dominant strains of thought change fairly regularly.

So the Technocracy gets split into two groups. The first would be ItX/VEs/Progenitors, the objectivists (yeah my name is bad, sue me). Their basic tenet is that there is an objective set of laws to the universe, and 'consensus,' as it were, is the unconscious psychic power of humans or something changing the laws of reality. As you might have noticed, this is a change from canon. They now explicitly sort of (but not fully) know they're fucking with consensus and changing human belief. Are they right? Are they wrong? That's up to the ST.

Then you have the sovereigns, who think being Awakened is justification to rule. They absorb a bit of the Hermetics and become the Illuminati/NWO/Barvarian conspiracy theories, combining the high-tech conspiracy stuff with the shady mystic symbolism that comes along for the ride with the NWO.

The Traditions generally get split even further. You'll have intersectional Traditionalists who are basically fighting for their own beliefs to be recognized and validated in consensus (i.e. saving their local consensus), the religious who believe that they're granted powers by their religion (the groups here probably don't get along), the postmodernist Traditions who believe in observation > facts (parts of the Etherites, VAs, and Akashics), the mystic religions who believe in an alternate mystical consensus with spirits but an axiomatic, almost scientific view of the world (Heeermetics), so on and so forth. All of these guys get to be more or less great powers in their own right.

The Nephandi and Euthanatos get combined into like, Reincarnationists who believe that the world must be broken to build a new one in the ashes, and Mar

The thing is, these groups are all independent rather than in the NATO/WarPact blocs of Mage canon. This makes the world, I think, more dynamic, and lets you have a lot more room to have fun. So right now, in 2016, the Sovereigns and the Christian magi (I really need better names) are working together, because the Sovereigns dumped the Objectivists a while ago in favor of strengthening religion to keep on top, and the religious took that chance-but now they're squabbling with each other. The Intersectionalists are getting in with minority rights

I think it gets the Ascension War's essence better-philosophical knife fights-and the temptation of power and hubris are both featured here, as well as the idea of having oddball parties and fighting colorful bad guys.
 
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Stop: Let's Not
As you can probably tell from Earthscorpion's...Earthscorpion, if it doesn't suck the Technocracy's cock then most people on this forum hate it.

To be entirely fair, I wouldn't put it past the Technocracy(or Pentex) to actually put nasty shit in vaccines that specifically react to supernaturals while ignoring Sleepers.
let's not This style and level of insults is a violation of rule three, and thus @Sydonai will be receiving a 25-point infraction.
 
Quoting here because it's mostly off topic and maybe we can start a discussion on something that doesn't start flame-wars, but doesn't Promethean have splat-influenced vampires, where some mad scientist did one-off experiments of 'vampire corpses, vampire corpses everywhere' to create unique characters? And other splats similarly getting unique Prometheans that aren't them, but have their shell based on it? Or am I remembering wrong.

I remember looking it up once, but I can't remember what I saw, only the vague impression I'm giving.


The Impossibilities.


Basically, Vampires, Werewolves, Mages (and presumably Changlings) cannot create Prometheans. It's flat out impossible for them to access the Divine Fire for various reasons.

However, several supernaturals have done so, in spite of its impossibility. Prometheans created by a member of a splat have bestowments, humors, and wastelands based on their creator's splat. So a Promethean created by a vampire can restore Pyros by drinking blood, but they crave blood and eventually start sucking the life force out of nearby plants and animals just by being there.

This is detailed in Saturine Night, which also has rules for clones, robots, and animal-human hybrids.
 
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@Quantumboost, basically I have to take a rusty hacksaw and carve up the damn thing until something usable remains, or ignore the book and go back to 2E/Revised/Group Agreement? *sighs*

Thankfully, I'm one vacation so I got enough time to read the entire book. Only problem is getting the motivation to actually finish the damn thing if it's as bad as you say. M20 was a slog, especially since I'm a casual player/ST.

For the Glory of the Union.
 
Quoting here because it's mostly off topic and maybe we can start a discussion on something that doesn't start flame-wars, but doesn't Promethean have splat-influenced vampires, where some mad scientist did one-off experiments of 'vampire corpses, vampire corpses everywhere' to create unique characters? And other splats similarly getting unique Prometheans that aren't them, but have their shell based on it? Or am I remembering wrong.

I remember looking it up once, but I can't remember what I saw, only the vague impression I'm giving.

The Promethean things in Saturnine Night are not splat hybrids. They're just new Promethean lineages that happen to have some theming from another splat. So the vampire-made one can extract Pyros from blood (which doesn't mean much considering how easy it is to get Pyros from normal power sockets with a 2-dot Transmution that I'd never build a character without), and so on.

(Honestly, the mage-made lineage is basically just an Osiran/Galatean hybrid - there's very little "mage" about her.)

Saturnine Night basically brought up that new lineages being created isn't necessarily that rare - it's just them being sustained which is the rarity. In fact, heh, back in... sigh, back in 2007 (fuck, I feel old), I wrote-up a new ice-based lineage as an alt-Osiran.

(Okay, the basic concept was "Lol, Nora Fries as a Promethean")

Lineage - The Cryonics
Other names - Snowmen, The Frozen, Popsicles (derogatory)

History - The Cryonics are a recent Lineage, dating their history back to the 1960s. However, there are rumours (nothing more) that the current version is merely a revival of a much older Lineage, of Incas, mummified in the ice of their mountains. A German doctor, Franz von Flahurt, was a leader in the nascent field of cryonics (the preservation of corpses through low temperatures), and had invented several of the techniques himself. Hired by a wealthy foundation in the US in 1965, he appeared to be on the verge of managing to achieve the goal, at least for small animals. It was at that point when his wife was hit by a drunk driver, putting her into a coma. So sure was he of his success, he managed, through personal connections to the owner of the hospital, to, against the law, have her put in cyro-storage while she was still alive, killing her, but keeping the body in perfect condition.

It was shortly after that that he found that a lab assistant had faked the results which had lead to so much promise in the field. At that point his mind snapped; he had killed his wife, from a coma which she may have recovered from, all for fool's gold. He stole and obtained as much equipment as possible, and managed to set up a functional lab in his home, transferring his wife to there. He delved into occultism, becoming especially fascinated by the myths of Osiris. He became convinced that the myth was a garbled retelling of an advanced civilisation who had mastered cryonics, and so ideas on how it was to be mastered were hidden within the texts. This led him to, unintentionally incorporate aspects of the Osiran creation ritual into his own Demiurgy. During the winter of 1968, he immersed his wife's corpse into his vat of liquid nitrogen, after some unusual preparations. As the body warmed, it began to twitch, in a way it had not before, and the Doctor broke down in tears. Once he had assured himself that his wife had warmed up enough, he ran down, to embrace her. She repulsed him, seemingly unaware of who he was. As he tried to coax her though her "brain injury", and accompanying memory loss, he found himself cease loving her, as her cold flesh seemed to sink an icy dagger into his heart. On Christmas Day, pushed beyond belief, and fearing she would remember he had killed her, he decided the most logical thing would be to kill her. She broke his neck after he had shot her twice in her frozen heart, and ran east, trying to find the nearest cold place. She got to a meat storage plant on the outskirts of LA before stopping. She still walks the earth, and has made more of her kind. Only one has reached Mortality, and completed the Magnus Opus, but they have no great barrier in their way, compared to the Zeka, who are the closest in age to them.

Element - Ice

Humour - Phlegm

Appearance - The Frozen are created by taking the corpse of an individuals who has died in the cold, and bringing life to them. This affects their appearance even when the disfigurements are hidden. Regardless of their original eye colour, when they awaken the eyes have always become an icy blue. The skin is often also bleached by their creation; Caucasian skin becomes almost transparent, while even darker ethnicities become paler than they were.

When the disfigurements are visible, the manner of their death is quite obvious. Their hair, their eyelashes, their eyes; all are think with frost. All colour leaves their skin, and clouds of condensed air can be seen billowing from their mouths when they breath. Their hands and toes, if they are visible, turn the black of terminal frostbite and swell. Some dessicate, taking on some of the appearance of an Incan ice mummy, while others have their skin rupture, as the ice that forms within them bursts their cell walls. Often Cryonics lack fingers and toes, from frostbite. If their stomach is visible, the stitch lines from their creation can be seen.


Creation Method - For a new Cryogen to be made, the corpse from which it is made must have died from the effects of extreme cold. However, most of the Frozen choose to obtain (or make) a corpse in fairly good conditions, with as many of the extremities as possible still attached, as using a bad quality corpse increases the risk of a Mockery. The Promethean must first disembowel the corpse, backing the insides with cold substances, before returning the intestines to their proper position, and sewing up the gut. The corpse must then be fed a saline solution, which the Cyrogen has spat into, transferring some of his Azoth to it. The frozen corpse must then be placed in a place where the temperature is less than -196 degrees Celsius (the temperature of liquid nitrogen) , and left there for an hour. At the end of the time, the Frozen removes the corpse from the cold place. As the body warms up, it begins to twitch, showing the first signs of a new Promethean... or a new Mockery.

Bestowment - Cold Hearted
Cost - None or 1 Pyros
Action - Reflexive
Transmution Cost - Composure x 7
The Promethean benefits from the 9-again rule on any Composure roll. In addition, if he fails he can expend 1 Pyros to re-roll (these rolls do not benefit from the 9-again rule, but they do get 10-again, as usual.) He also doubles his Composure when it would serve as a Resistance Attribute against a supernatural power.
Finally, the Promethean can raise his Composure above the normal human limit of 5, using experience points.
Although it is not part of their creation, other Prometheans can learn this Bestowment as a Transmutation. This changes the metaphysical balance of the Promethean, making them unemotional, and potentially cruel due to his restricted emotions.

Alternate Bestowment - Bearer of the Ice
Cost - 2 Pyros
Action - Instant
Transmution Cost - Azoth x 7
Dice Pool - Presence + Science + Azoth vs Stamina + Azoth
Some Cryonics have been known to take the ice with their from their deaths. They can gift this to others, freezing them into place as they were frozen. The Cyrogen must first grapple the target; assuming the target does not escape the power can then be activated. The target is turned into a solid object, akin to ice sculptures. Their durability is the same as their Stamina (meaning they have the same dots of Structure as they do Health dots). This form lasts for the same number of minutes as the Promethean rolls successes. If the target is attacked during that time, it can return to normal with a successful Resolve + Composure roll.
Although it is not part of their creation, other Prometheans can learn this as a Transmutation. This ability changes their appearance, based on their Lineage. The metal plates of a Frankenstein become frosted over, while the edges of the rents in the flesh of one of the Riven are criss-crossed with shards of ice. The mud of a Tammuz gets little trapped pockets of ice, and crackles as he moves, while the Galatids may even appear to be made of fine, crystal-like ice. The Osirans take on the appearance of a mummy made through freezing, rather than heat and salt, while the Zekas' skins take on a pinched, frostbitten touch.

Wasteland - The element of the Cryonic Wasteland is Ice, as that is what killed them and brought them back, and it manifests itself wherever they go. Children and old people die of the cold, as do crops and livestock, until only a cold and dead snowstorm remains with them in the centre. In the Shadow, Ice and Snow spirits gain power, Water spirits are tainted by frozen Essence and Fire Spirits must feed constantly to avoid dying.

Level 2 – The weather is unseasonably cold, and a bitter wind blows much of the time. Heating seems to fail more than is usual.

Level 3 – It begins to snow, with it settling on the ground and drifts beginning to form. Heating devices require constant maintenance to avoid burning out. The old and very young begin to suffer and die. The roads are always covered in ice

Level 4 – It snows constantly now. All liquid water left outside will freeze almost instantly, and nothing but the most crude heater will work. The healthy begin to suffer from the cold, and deaths of infants and elderly are daily occurrences. Wildlife and plants will all be dead, unless they are adapted to the environment.

Disquiet - The Cryonics are kin, in some way to the Osirans, and, in an act of bitter irony, the Cryonic Disquiet produces the same effects as the Osiran Torment. People infected with the Frozen disquiet tend to find her cold and arrogant the first time they meet her. Despite this, they are often attracted to her, without knowing why. They begins to see the advantage of acting that way; distancing yourself from other to remove the problems that emotions bring. They become frigid to their spouse, thinking of their love as a silly infatuation. They begin to take the most elegant root to solve a problem, regardless of ethics; a politician might use influence to start a corruption inquiry at a local traffic department, because he didn't like the attitude of a warden who gave him a ticket. Eventually, they become completely amoral and sociopathic, considering only their interests, and removing those who get in their way by any method that stops the blame landing on them. Inevitably, too, they see the Cryonic as a problem, and try to remove her.

Torment - When one of the Frozen are overwhelmed with Torment, the light of their unnatural life grows dim. They wish only to return to the grave where they should be. They make a straight line to the nearest dark, quiet, secluded place, furiously attacking everything in the way, and lie down there, acting dead. If something disturbs them, they attack it, and try to find the next place. If they know a place that will be certainly safe, they go there instead of an unknown place. The frost thickens on them, making it more difficult to move, so while it lasts, for any action except from getting to a place to "be" dead, they are at -1 Dexterity.

Pyros Recovery - The Frozen must sleep in a place where the temperature is below 0 degrees Celsius, where ice can form. A Frozen may sleep outside during cold weather, in a meat-packing plant, or hollow out a full size freezer and sleep in it. As long as the temperature remains below 0 Celsius for the first hour the Pyros is gained, even if it warms up later.

Mockery - Icicles (Cryonic Mockery)
While the frozen hearts of the Frozen drives them onwards, hoping for warmth even as they live in the cold, the Icicles are cruel, jagged fiends, which care only for what they desire. And what they desire is the Pyros of a Promethean. They love to crush their victims in engineered avalanches, tearing off strips of flesh from the mangled flesh, leaving just enough life to heal so more can be taken, or freezing it with its Bestowment, shattering it and eating the small shards of frozen flesh.
Dormant Form – The Icicles will take a myriad of different forms, from icicles in cold conditions, to peculiar steel shapes, to a dead bush covered in thorns. The forms always are sharp in some way; able to draw the blood of the careless.
Bestowment – Crucible of Flesh Pandoran Transmutation (oooo). In the case of the Icicles, unlike the Torch-Born, the damage is done by intense cold; endothermic reactions within the Pandoran drawing the heat away from the target.
Subliminati – Icicle Sublimati are cold, distant, arrogant creatures, that take a joy in using the "warmings" in often excessively convoluted plots to capture their prey. They will quite willingly let go an injured Promethean who they have torn a limb from, just for the joy of hunting it down again.
Weakness – The warmth of the Divine Fire pains the Icicles just as they need it; for each 2 points of Pyros they steal from a Promethean, rounding up, they take a point of bashing damage which may not be healed with Pyros. In addition, they take an additional point of Aggravated damge from any fire used against them.

Stereotypes


Frankenstein: Try to be more composed; those outbursts are most undignified.
Galatea: Your behaviour is most illogical.
Osiris: We are kin; indeed you are almost an elder brother.
Tammuz: Okay... don't say anything, then.
Ulgan: Just as I thought: too much mysticism rots the brain.
Zeka: We both bear the future winter upon us; but the nuclear winter is even less desirable than mine.

Vampires: You have a cold, dead heart, as do I. But mine has the chance of thawing.
Werewolves: You do not know the feels of being surrounded by ice; you have your pack.
Mages: You have so much power, and so much potential, so I ask you; why do you act so irrationally?
Mortals: You're so warm!
 
Honestly, with the sheer amount of headcannoning we're already doing constantly here, sometimes it feels like SV should just pitch together to write its own, unfucked version of Mage cutting out all the stupid bits entirely.

I mean, it can't be worse than M20.
It will never get finished if it's meant to be a consensus (heh) vision of the setting pitched together. I find it more likely that there can be a rewrite that matches the vision of whoever happens to be the top dog of SV, as opposed to that of SV (well, of the WoD Thread Occupants) as a whole.

I disagree. The Technocracy are interesting antagonists. But if you want them to be villains, the Technocracy have always been bad villains in Mage, as demonstrated by the history of the entire line where they have had problems being the villains, from how 1E basically made the Technocracy baby killing eeeeeevil because it was the only way they could think of to make 'the guys who made the modern world' villains, to how a regular refrain in 2E/Revised discussions was "wait, the Technocracy were supposed to be the bad guys?!" When people keep missing the idea that they're villains, you have made what might be a good antagonist if you want a game with a good degree of moral ambiguity, but you haven't made villains. And to carry on that theme-the things you give as antithetical to mages-hubris and stasis-the Technocracy represents poorly, and is pidgeonholed into. The Technocracy represents 'Stasis' because Stasis is defined as "what the Technocracy is" in Mage. If you use the real life definition of stasis, the Technocracy is anti-stasis.

The Technocracy doesn't represent hubris either in canon, because there is nothing about its plan which is impossible. The one thing common to all three editions of oMage is that the Technocracy can win. In Revised, there's a scenario where it wins. In 2E, the Technocracy is presented as one of the possible victors of the final battle of the Ascension War, which is coming soon. In 1E, the Technocracy is the favored frontrunner for the winner. The Technocracy has been ambitious-but it is an ambition it very much can carry out. The Technocracy are good antagonists because they're the complex paternalistic hand of modernity, in all its good and bad. But that also makes them bad villains.

The changes you ask for-making the Technocracy actually represent stasis and hubris-makes them far more Seer-like. That's why I say you might as well replace the Union with the Seers-you're changing them again and again into something that's far closer to the Seers than the canonical Technocracy.
First, I think the line between antagonists and villains is not necessarily a sharp and clear one. That being said, here's what I think about the antagony-villainy spectrum of the Technocracy:

The Technocracy was apparently (as far as I've seen) envisioned as The Enemy Faction. Very much like Sabbat, but built for the context of Mage and Changeling and not VtM. Note that in contrast to, say, VtM, these two lines are meant to be about shining some of the few rays of light in the world of darkness. And that kinda requires that the side you're on is the good one, that you fight against darkness and evil. For your choice to be the right one. That means the opposition should be be very definitely closer to the dark side. This is why the Technocracy has very strong, sometimes even cheesy elements of Banality, of being the force strangling human potential and imagination and freedom. Of course, WW being WW, they eventually published pro-TC stuff like they did publish pro-Sabbat stuff. That is not inherently a problem. (In fact, a pro-Sabbat angle isn't a problem in VtM because VtM is black-and-black in the first place.)

However, the problem is that the more apologism/whitewashing/lightening Technocracy gets, the more this undermines the positions of heroes of the line as being actually heroic (in the modern sense of the word). You brought up the depiction of Traditions as Allies and of TC as USSR. I'll say that there's a certain insight to be gained from this analogy:
This is probably less known/noticed in Anglophone and Francophone parts of the world, but the modern PR strategy of the reds includes the following approach: "Oh, sure, we're dictatorial authoritarian militaristic boot-stompers, but those fellows over the Western border aren't really any more good than us, they're just putting on an unrealistic image of themselves, while we're being realistic and honest about our nastiness, even if we have secret police and stuff". I find this approach to be extremely reminiscent of the way pro-Technocracy texts come off as. It's a powerful tactic - saying "You and I are not so different". It's also something that undermines an important aspect of Mage that sets it apart from most of WoD.
 
The Technocracy is not made for Changeling, and is not related to Changeling, though it has a part in Changeling.

The Technocracy in Changeling is not the Technocracy of Mage.

Yes. Among other things, the Technocracy in Mage is far more grey, while in Changeling it's the outright good guys for crushing Changelings and lol-noping all their powers with their Banality, etc etc.

In Changeling, a world ruled by the Technocracy is a world without Pookas. How can anyone supporting that be the bad guys?
 
This is probably less known/noticed in Anglophone and Francophone parts of the world, but the modern PR strategy of the reds includes the following approach: "Oh, sure, we're dictatorial authoritarian militaristic boot-stompers, but those fellows over the Western border aren't really any more good than us, they're just putting on an unrealistic image of themselves, while we're being realistic and honest about our nastiness, even if we have secret police and stuff".
This may be less known/noticed among non-reds in your part of the world, but the CIA are both horrible (o hai waterboarding) and crazy (the guys who wanted to poison Castro's boot polish were not instantly laughed out of the room) people and the federal government is engaged in indefinite detention of foreign nationals without trial.
 
This may be less known/noticed among non-reds in your part of the world, but the CIA are both horrible (o hai waterboarding) and crazy (the guys who wanted to poison Castro's boot polish were not instantly laughed out of the room) people and the federal government is engaged in indefinite detention of foreign nationals without trial.
Sure, the CIA are horrible. But at least they are less eager to use all that horrible stuff on millions of their own compatriots. That's exactly the sort of tactic that the reds are using: "See, the West kidnapped and tortured thousands of people saying it's for the good of the people, so it's totally okay that the East did the same with millions, ergo you should side with us because both sides are the same."
All militarised organisations are evil to some extent (there's a reason why MtA is described as Wizards Fighting Against The Man). Some are much more so. Also, some at least try to fight for something vaguely resembling freedom, while others don't even pretend.
 
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Well, uh...

This thread moves fast. It's been a while since I've come in with questions about WoD and now I actually have some time and money to properly run a game, I have two questions.

1 - What is the best way to get into Mage (and understand it - pretty much everything I've read on SV is whizzing over my head)?

2 - How is Vampire: The Requiem 2nd edition? People seem to be quite positive of it as a toolkit, from what I've heard.
 
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Well, uh...

This thread moves fast. It's been a while since I've come in with questions about WoD and now I actually have some time and money to properly run a game, I have two questions.

1 - What is the best way to get into Mage (and understand it - pretty much everything I've read on SV is whizzing over my head)?

2 - How is Vampire: The Requiem 2nd edition? People seem to be quite positive of it as a toolkit, from what I've heard.

People who dislike the ruleset of GMC dislike it somewhat (that's a whole big debate) and there are a lot of people who aren't that interested in the Strix, yet despite that I have to say it's very, very solid. And the GMC thing is a big whole debate, so it's not some thing where it's universally panned and nobody will ever like the system so you might as well not bother.

Yet despite these potential problems, it's very solid, the Clans and Covenants are covered very well (IMO, of course), the powers are simple to understand and thematically relevant, and it's definitely what got me into Vampire as opposed to 1e, which was all over the place and had a disappointing corebook.
 
People who dislike the ruleset of GMC dislike it somewhat (that's a whole big debate) and there are a lot of people who aren't that interested in the Strix, yet despite that I have to say it's very, very solid. And the GMC thing is a big whole debate, so it's not some thing where it's universally panned and nobody will ever like the system so you might as well not bother.

Yet despite these potential problems, it's very solid, the Clans and Covenants are covered very well (IMO, of course), the powers are simple to understand and thematically relevant, and it's definitely what got me into Vampire as opposed to 1e, which was all over the place and had a disappointing corebook.
I pretty much agree.

Well, except for the Carthian's magical ability to vote the Blood Potency out of someone, which is completely idiotic unless there was some fluff I missed about them making a pact with the spirit of democracy or something.
 
I pretty much agree.

Well, except for the Carthian's magical ability to vote the Blood Potency out of someone, which is completely idiotic unless there was some fluff I missed about them making a pact with the spirit of democracy or something.

I agree that sounds sorta dumb. Admittedly, now I'm imagining a fantasy/urban fantasy setting where someone *did* make a pact with the spirit of democracy. :V
 
Yes. Among other things, the Technocracy in Mage is far more grey, while in Changeling it's the outright good guys for crushing Changelings and lol-noping all their powers with their Banality, etc etc.

In Changeling, a world ruled by the Technocracy is a world without Pookas. How can anyone supporting that be the bad guys?

Like, Changeling is the game about playing a parasite that feeds on creativity to sustain itself, fighting a desperate war against modern science to make the world lapse back into previous ignorance so they can rule as gods again.

It's literally Beast before Beast was a thing.
 
Like, Changeling is the game about playing a parasite that feeds on creativity to sustain itself, fighting a desperate war against modern science to make the world lapse back into previous ignorance so they can rule as gods again.
It's literally Beast before Beast was a thing.
If that's your honest opinion then you need to actually read the books and not get your information off of 4chan.
I would say that "are sustained by" is a much better way to phrase that than "feeds on".
 
I been lurking this thread and just a question, what is the best way to actually get into Mage line World of Darkness games?

I know im repeating myself, but my question has been hidden under another Technocracy vs Traditions argument.

Another question, why is SV so pro Technocracy? I mean they are pretty interesting, it feels like the Traditions for several reasons are sort of marginalized on SV.
I am interesting in Ascension more.
Well, uh...

This thread moves fast. It's been a while since I've come in with questions about WoD and now I actually have some time and money to properly run a game, I have two questions.

1 - What is the best way to get into Mage (and understand it - pretty much everything I've read on SV is whizzing over my head)?

The basics of Mage (that pretty much everyone can agree on) are that human belief affects reality. Not everyone has an equal effect on reality. Mages are people with an exceptional amount of willpower to force their beliefs upon the world. It's easier to do magic if it doesn't look like magic because the local people don't disbelieve it and make it harder (This is called Coincidental magic). But you still do magic that is more obviously magic. This is called Vulgar magic and is harder to do and brings greater consequences if you fail. If you fail (or in some cases even if you succeed at obvious magic), the universe pushes back against you (this is called Paradox). Once that push builds up great enough the universe can snap back at you in what's known as Paradox backlash.

The fact that people are capable of imposing their wills upon reality often get into conflict about what the world should look like. The world is roughly divided into 2 main blocs: The Technocracy (who is built around modern society and science and technology and wants magic to be secret and the world to believe in science) and the Council of 9 mystic Traditions (who are based around ancient mystical traditions such as hermeticism and paganism, but with a few tech friendly people mixed in. They want to continue practicing their magic, and often re-inject it into the world). The idea of how belief effects reality is known as the Consensus. The belief system that you use to effect reality is your Paradigm.

The gameline officially started with Mage 1st edition, but it has a pitifully small following compared two the other two main editions. The main two editions are Mage 2nd edition and Mage Revised. (technically, there is also Mage20. Mage20 is really big. It's pretty daunting at 698 pages. It's a real hassle digging through it to find anything, despite its table of contents. It's also written by Brucato who is a controversial person on these boards (and probably in other places too) for his views on Mage and magic. Therefore I's say buying Mage20 should probably be out for a newbie, you can judge it's merits for itself once you learn more if you want to.) Mage 2nd is more biased towards the groups of mystic mages (although it did have the guide to the Technocracy, which put the Technocracy in a more gray vs gray light). Mage Revised is still biased towards mages, but started off more nuanced and later introduced books from the Technocracy's perspective which portray the Technocracy in a better light. Mage20 leans more towards the Mage 2nd version of things.

To get into the gameline, and really gameline, I'd always advise to look into examples of people playing the game and then get ahold of one version of the rulebook or another. Roll20 has an ongoing game (playing as mages, which is probably done more often then playing the Technocracy) which uses Mage20 and leans towards the Mage 2nd interpretation (from what I can tell). MJ12 Commando runs a game called Panopticon Quest which follows an interpretation that is more of Revised than anything else, but also has some of his own (and Earthscorpian's) interpretations of things. There's also an ongoing plot in the back of some of the books and the novels called the Metaplot, but you should probably learn more about the setting before deciding if you prefer a Mage 2nd or Mage Revised version of the Metaplot (in a nutshell: Mage 2nd made magic easier to cast magic and have less backlash. Mage Revised mage it harder to cast magic (so that mages would have to be subtle) and have more backlash. Mage Revised also made it harder to go off into the Spirit realms, to keep the fight of mages and technocrats on earth and to clear out most of the ancient, really powerful, archmages who were living in the spirit worlds because they can't live on earth anymore. This removed a lot of the worst of the Techocracy's (and arguably the mystic traditions) bad apples and freed up politics for the younger mages and technocrats to have more influence.) There are also debates about how the rules system for magic should be interpreted, this will probably be addressed in the Roll20 series (I haven't actually seen it myself) and I'm pretty sure it's discussed in the comments in between Panopticon Quest updates.

Panopticon Quest1​ is from the point of view of the Technocracy, but there are a few mage sidequests/interludes sprinkled in. Panopticon Quest is a large part of the reason that this board (and SV in general) have such a pro-Technocracy bias.

I'm sorry I can't think of any sources to hear people talking about Revised except Panopticon Quest. For general clarifications about the setting and the game: The game's wikipedia page gives a more detailed description of things (as does TVTropes's page or 1d4chan's page if that's your thing). Also, if you're willing to use the wayback machine, the RP Subnet will mostly walk you through the character creation, all though white wolf officially took it down.

I hope that the rampant flamewars on this board don't turn you off of the gameline (it's famous for its flame wars), because the idea that belief effects reality is a really interesting conceit and is played out in an interesting setting. You can always come back to these forums2​ if you have more advanced questions about how Mage works.

[1] And you'll want to pay attention to the comments if you don't understand things, as people ask questions and explain things there relatively often.

[2] Or the comments section of Panopticon Quest if you decide you like their interpretation of the setting and the system. (I, and a lot of people on this board, endorse it, but it is controversial.)
 
1 - What is the best way to get into Mage (and understand it - pretty much everything I've read on SV is whizzing over my head)?

2 - How is Vampire: The Requiem 2nd edition? People seem to be quite positive of it as a toolkit, from what I've heard.

1. That depends. Are we talking about Ascension or Awakening?

If we're talking about Awakening, then I'd recommend just the 2e Corebook since it's pretty solid. My opinion though is that some parts of the thing are half-assed and lacking in direction, as well as being victim to the Rule of 5 which is prevalent in nWod. Despite my love for the thing, Awakening is something I consider more as a toolkit to run urban fantasy mages rather than a game. Even then, someone would recommend Unknown Armies or Dresden Files instead.

Ascension on the other hand is complicated, much more complicated. I don't know what the big names in the thread would recommend, but if you have access to books, that I recommend reading oMage 2e, oMage Revised, Guide to the Traditions*, Storyteller's Handbook*, Guide to the Technocracy, Technocracy Revised splat books.

*These two are something on the maybe side.

The Technocracy books are wonderful (except for Iteration X). I may not buy into the Technocracy hype, even though I'm sympathetic, but their books give insight into the most well developed faction in WoD.

The best way to learn... well, I learned Ascension on my own without any sort of help. It was a brave new world with attractive and complex ideas, ideas which led me to question everything I knew. Even now, I learn things just be rereading the books and staying here on the thread, though things still fly over my head mainly because I'm a filthy casual.

I'd recommend getting someone willing to run a game for you. I'd volunteer, but that's dependent on a lot of factors.

2. @The Laurent and @notthepengiuns already gave their opinions on the subject, and one that I'll agree with.

EDIT: :ninja:
 
Ascension on the other hand is complicated, much more complicated. I don't know what the big names in the thread would recommend, but if you have access to books, that I recommend reading oMage 2e, oMage Revised, Guide to the Traditions*, Storyteller's Handbook*, Guide to the Technocracy, Technocracy Revised splat books.

Alternatively, save yourself a headache and look up sorcerers crusade.

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In any case, you also probably should take a look at infinite tapestry.
 
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Alternatively, save yourself a headache and look up sorcerers crusade.

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In any case, you also probably should take a look at infinite tapestry.
For someone who is unfamiliar with the gamline: Sorcerer's Crusade is the Mage setting, but in a Medieval/Renaissance time. It features old school witches and wizards of the Traditions (mostly, but not always) fighting against the precursor to the Technocracy (who is arguably less ambiguous in its morals), the Order of Reason (Renaissance men and women). Infinite Tapestry is a book about the spirit worlds from the perspective of the Revised setting (leaning towards a mage view of the spirit worlds). The book of the spirit worlds from the 2nd edition of Mage is in Beyond Barriers: the Book of Worlds.
 
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The basics of Mage (that pretty much everyone can agree on) are that human belief affects reality. Not everyone has an equal effect on reality. Mages are people with an exceptional amount of willpower to force their beliefs upon the world. It's easier to do magic if it doesn't look like magic because the local people don't disbelieve it and make it harder (This is called Coincidental magic). But you still do magic that is more obviously magic. This is called Vulgar magic and is harder to do and brings greater consequences if you fail. If you fail (or in some cases even if you succeed at obvious magic), the universe pushes back against you (this is called Paradox). Once that push builds up great enough the universe can snap back at you in what's known as Paradox backlash.

The fact that people are capable of imposing their wills upon reality often get into conflict about what the world should look like. The world is roughly divided into 2 main blocs: The Technocracy (who is built around modern society and science and technology and wants magic to be secret and the world to believe in science) and the Council of 9 mystic Traditions (who are based around ancient mystical traditions such as hermeticism and paganism, but with a few tech friendly people mixed in. They want to continue practicing their magic, and often re-inject it into the world). The idea of how belief effects reality is known as the Consensus. The belief system that you use to effect reality is your Paradigm.

The gameline officially started with Mage 1st edition, but it has a pitifully small following compared two the other two main editions. The main two editions are Mage 2nd edition and Mage Revised. (technically, there is also Mage20. Mage20 is really big. It's pretty daunting at 698 pages. It's a real hassle digging through it to find anything, despite its table of contents. It's also written by Brucato who is a controversial person on these boards (and probably in other places too) for his views on Mage and magic. Therefore I's say buying Mage20 should probably be out for a newbie, you can judge it's merits for itself once you learn more if you want to.) Mage 2nd is more biased towards the groups of mystic mages (although it did have the guide to the Technocracy, which put the Technocracy in a more gray vs gray light). Mage Revised is still biased towards mages, but started off more nuanced and later introduced books from the Technocracy's perspective which portray the Technocracy in a better light. Mage20 leans more towards the Mage 2nd version of things.

To get into the gameline, and really gameline, I'd always advise to look into examples of people playing the game and then get ahold of one version of the rulebook or another. Roll20 has an ongoing game (playing as mages, which is probably done more often then playing the Technocracy) which uses Mage20 and leans towards the Mage 2nd interpretation (from what I can tell). MJ12 Commando runs a game called Panopticon Quest which follows an interpretation that is more of Revised than anything else, but also has some of his own (and Earthscorpian's) interpretations of things. There's also an ongoing plot in the back of some of the books and the novels called the Metaplot, but you should probably learn more about the setting before deciding if you prefer a Mage 2nd or Mage Revised version of the Metaplot (in a nutshell: Mage 2nd made magic easier to cast magic and have less backlash. Mage Revised mage it harder to cast magic (so that mages would have to be subtle) and have more backlash. Mage Revised also made it harder to go off into the Spirit realms, to keep the fight of mages and technocrats on earth and to clear out most of the ancient, really powerful, archmages who were living in the spirit worlds because they can't live on earth anymore. This removed a lot of the worst of the Techocracy's (and arguably the mystic traditions) bad apples and freed up politics for the younger mages and technocrats to have more influence.) There are also debates about how the rules system for magic should be interpreted, this will probably be addressed in the Roll20 series (I haven't actually seen it myself) and I'm pretty sure it's discussed in the comments in between Panopticon Quest updates.

Panopticon Quest1​ is from the point of view of the Technocracy, but there are a few mage sidequests/interludes sprinkled in. Panopticon Quest is a large part of the reason that this board (and SV in general) have such a pro-Technocracy bias.

I'm sorry I can't think of any sources to hear people talking about Revised except Panopticon Quest. For general clarifications about the setting and the game: The game's wikipedia page gives a more detailed description of things (as does TVTropes's page or 1d4chan's page if that's your thing). Also, if you're willing to use the wayback machine, the RP Subnet will mostly walk you through the character creation, all though white wolf officially took it down.

I hope that the rampant flamewars on this board don't turn you off of the gameline (it's famous for its flame wars), because the idea that belief effects reality is a really interesting conceit and is played out in an interesting setting. You can always come back to these forums2​ if you have more advanced questions about how Mage works.

[1] And you'll want to pay attention to the comments if you don't understand things, as people ask questions and explain things there relatively often.

[2] Or the comments section of Panopticon Quest if you decide you like their interpretation of the setting and the system. (I, and a lot of people on this board, endorse it, but it is controversial.)
Thanks so much for the response! I did get the free Mage 20 Quickstart PDF, so that has proven helpful. My question is, how do you actually disguise magic as consensual? I get that manipulating Existing Elements is Forces 2+, so for example manipulating fire and electricity. I understand the technocratic way of hiding from paradox, which would be lots of cutting edge technology and scientificlly backed techno-babble, but how can the traditions hide from paradox? Like with the Celestial Chorus, how do you disguise your method of throwing lightning bolts with the fact that angels cause paradox backlash.
 
Thanks so much for the response! I did get the free Mage 20 Quickstart PDF, so that has proven helpful. My question is, how do you actually disguise magic as consensual? I get that manipulating Existing Elements is Forces 2+, so for example manipulating fire and electricity. I understand the technocratic way of hiding from paradox, which would be lots of cutting edge technology and scientificlly backed techno-babble, but how can the traditions hide from paradox? Like with the Celestial Chorus, how do you disguise your method of throwing lightning bolts with the fact that angels cause paradox backlash.
You have to be careful about it, God helped to guide my bullet to the target, the bullet (narrowly) avoided me by the grace of god. In this dangerous storm, god blew down a power line on my enemy. We held a prayer vigil over him while he was in the hospital and he miraculously survived/healed faster. Although the more magical traditions can have more trouble in hiding their magic, that's for sure.
 
Well, uh...

This thread moves fast. It's been a while since I've come in with questions about WoD and now I actually have some time and money to properly run a game, I have two questions.

1 - What is the best way to get into Mage (and understand it - pretty much everything I've read on SV is whizzing over my head)?

2 - How is Vampire: The Requiem 2nd edition? People seem to be quite positive of it as a toolkit, from what I've heard.

I'll answer Two first as it's quicker and easier. Personally I'm liking the 2E of the CofD so far. When it first came, when it was called the New World of Darkness, I didn't like most of the game lines as many felt like flat, dull sandbox versions of their oWoD counterparts. But 2E has made them, at least in my eyes, more interesting and worth playing.

I still prefer the oWoD but then I'm someone that's been firmly entrenched in oWoD for years.

As for the first point, that's harder thing to nail down. Unlike VtM or WtA, MtAs has gone through some serious changes across the Editions. Indeed the Edition Wars are rather infamous among long time fans. While M20 does have a lot information on the MtAs and the setting, it is also a near 700 page book making it a daunting read. Hell there are sections of it I merely skimmed over and didn't actually read. But at the same time the first M20 game I played in we had two people new to MtAs (though they had played a fair bit of VtM before hand) while the ST and myself where MtAs vets and there was another player that had some experience. Only myself and the ST had actually read M20 before we starting putting the game together. The ST outlined several sections in the book for those players with no real MtAs knowledge to read, focusing on what they need to know for the game and gave them copies of the PDF. If I remember correctly it was basically the first couple of chapters that detailed the setting, minus the stuff in the Umbra as we wouldn't be using it, the chapter on the Mage groups, minus the Nephandi and Marauders though really focusing on the Traditions, the Character Creation chapter and the Magic rules chapter since they were veterans of at least V20 and knew the core rules of the Storyteller System fairly well and didn't need to really read those chapters.

The game went well. Our first day we sat down and built the characters together so that we, the ST and I, could help those less experienced with MtAs. The game itself went slow but well. Yes we often had to stop to explain something mechanically to one of the players but that's happened plenty times in games with new players. Hell I've been in that position before plenty of times. So that wasn't a big deal.

In fact it went much better than the first time my friends and I played MtAs years ago. It was 2002 and none of us had touched MtAs before and only had a bit of VtM experience before hand. And my God was it a mess. But then we only had the rulebook and barely any idea what we were doing back then. It wasn't until I started reading more MtAs books that I really got it.

Either way you're in for a daunting reading, whether its the massive tome that is M20 or several old MtAs books.

There is the White Wolf Wiki. It is a pretty good source of info on the setting outside of the books themselves.
 
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