Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Even if her mother is a bitch?
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Warhammer Fantasy: Honor is all, Chivalry is all (Bretonnia CK2)
- Thread starter Voikirium
- Start date
Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
Yes, she's still married to a Baron, or some other high noble, correct?
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Her mother's attitude and personality have no bearing on the legal and political implications of breaking the betrothal.
It's fine to not like first-cousin marriages, and I would say generally speaking we should avoid them, but this one is already set, so we should focus on making the best of it.
I think we better stop this line of thought before a mod decides to show up.
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
Good luck with that you too, you'll need it.
Looking forward to seeing Melisende's sheet by the way.
Yeah, I'm surprised people forgot.
Looking forward to seeing Melisende's sheet by the way.
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Melisende Armistead
Born: 1430
The betrothed of your son Charles, and daughter of your sister. What was once fear has morphed into hate-- good. You'd rather be detested for what you did than feared for something you would not, could not do, in a thousand lives.
She also looks disturbingly like you, something you are sure cannot have been pretty for her, raised by Carol as she was.
Traits:
Brawny: Training with her bow, her knives, and her staff has given her a wiry, dexterous strength-- she couldn't out-punch one of your knights or squires, but she would slither around every one of their blows then hit them harder than it seems she could.(+2 Martial, +1 Diplomacy)
Good-Eye: She is a pretty good shot, though more experience must come her way before she can truly claim to be exceptional.(+2 Martial)
Genius: She is really, really smart, much like her mother-- though unlike her mother, she is not hard-edged with the sheer cruelty and malice of ambition. (+2 All Stats)
Young: Raw potential is no replacement for real experience. (-2 All Stats for every year under age of majority)
Sympathy for Sigmarites: Hated for their modernity, shunned for their faith in the Heldenhammer, and considered traitors, it should not be a surprise that your niece spends much time speaking with those warrior priests of Sigmar who come to her family's lands. It probably doesn't hurt that outside of the city of Montfort, the largest concentration of Imperial Expatriates lives in Baron Armistead's lands.
Martial: 15+2+2+2-8=13- She'll be dangerous, one day.
Piety: 9+2-8=3- youth breeds impropriety.
Diplomacy: 12+2+1-8=6- As long as it's not one of your men she's dealing with, she's polite enough.
Intrigue: 12+2-8=6- somewhat sneaky?
Learning:5+2-8=0- If it doesn't have to do with her aspirations of being a Warden, she gives not the slightest damn.
Stewardship: 4+2-8=0- She was not bred to rule.
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Before anyone asks, I did not make up the Imperial Expatriate thing.
Born: 1430
The betrothed of your son Charles, and daughter of your sister. What was once fear has morphed into hate-- good. You'd rather be detested for what you did than feared for something you would not, could not do, in a thousand lives.
She also looks disturbingly like you, something you are sure cannot have been pretty for her, raised by Carol as she was.
Traits:
Brawny: Training with her bow, her knives, and her staff has given her a wiry, dexterous strength-- she couldn't out-punch one of your knights or squires, but she would slither around every one of their blows then hit them harder than it seems she could.(+2 Martial, +1 Diplomacy)
Good-Eye: She is a pretty good shot, though more experience must come her way before she can truly claim to be exceptional.(+2 Martial)
Genius: She is really, really smart, much like her mother-- though unlike her mother, she is not hard-edged with the sheer cruelty and malice of ambition. (+2 All Stats)
Young: Raw potential is no replacement for real experience. (-2 All Stats for every year under age of majority)
Sympathy for Sigmarites: Hated for their modernity, shunned for their faith in the Heldenhammer, and considered traitors, it should not be a surprise that your niece spends much time speaking with those warrior priests of Sigmar who come to her family's lands. It probably doesn't hurt that outside of the city of Montfort, the largest concentration of Imperial Expatriates lives in Baron Armistead's lands.
Martial: 15+2+2+2-8=13- She'll be dangerous, one day.
Piety: 9+2-8=3- youth breeds impropriety.
Diplomacy: 12+2+1-8=6- As long as it's not one of your men she's dealing with, she's polite enough.
Intrigue: 12+2-8=6- somewhat sneaky?
Learning:5+2-8=0- If it doesn't have to do with her aspirations of being a Warden, she gives not the slightest damn.
Stewardship: 4+2-8=0- She was not bred to rule.
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Before anyone asks, I did not make up the Imperial Expatriate thing.
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
Interesting, thanks.
- Location
- Someplace USA
wow I forgot what "normal" people look like stat wise.
- Location
- USA
For real, I've started playing ck2 again and those stats are great for an in-game randomly created character. But compared to the ubermensch that most ck2 quests have as their characters it's actually just pretty underwhelming.
Spectrum
Tell me a secret~
- Location
- Behind you~
She's still 21 Martial, with 15 Diplo and 14 Intrigue to back it, that's not even 'normal'. That's a great base to build off of given her age.
Melisendre's mother killed her father and tried to kill her brother. Melisendre tried to murder her own fiancee. Is this enough to have them killed permanently? Because if not when do we get to protect our own family? Because it's sounding more and more like 'follow the code of chivalry' means 'protect everyone including murderers, traitors and patricides except for those members of your family who are actually worth something' !!!
What is a Bretonian noble doing with a bow? Ranged weapons are the tools of cowards (imperials) and weaklings (underfed peasants). Nine base piety shouldn't prompt her to flaunting one of the fundamental cultural edicts.
She is woman so not subject to same restrictions knights need to obey and on more practical grounds no ward save to loose.
It isn't about legal technicalities, it is about cultural perception. To Bretonnians using a bow is showing that you are too weak, too dishonourable, too unchivalrous to actually fight your enemies.
This girl isn't someone who needs to fight, and win, just to survive. She is a noble living in a castle after all. Thus her martial efforts are a matter of pride rather than practicality. Except that no one in Bretonnia regards skill with a bow as something to take pride in.
So… why did she learn the bow?
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
She read a lot-- like, a lot-- of stories involving Bertrand the Brigand. She read of his cleverness, his unorthodox manner, and his eventual fate. She decided that, seeing as she was the daughter of a kin-slayer, she was already going to be unpopular, she might as well Do the Thing anyway.
It helps, of course, that if she wants to be a ranger, she really probably needs some ranged way to pin down her foes.
Melisende was not trying to kill Charles-- if she had fired on him, successful or not, very, very shortly thereafter a very, very mad Merlin would have had words with her. Words like "Conflagration of Doom!" It would not have been fun for anyone.
As for Carole, you very well could have damned her. You could have exiled her into the Massif. You could have told her to bring back the heads of a hundred Wyverns. You could even have spilled her blood on the steps of Castle Montfort, and left her to be feasted upon by crows.
You could have been the Dark Lord of the Mountains, wrathful to your own kin.
Instead, you chose mercy.
Because no one care what kind of weapon noble lady uses so long as it's not forbidden in Bretonnia. She is already breaking tradition, besides bows require a lot of strength to use so it's good way to show how strong she is.
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In other words, we followed the path of chivalry.
In other words, we were idiots.
Yes, I am bitter that we didn't execute her.
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
>Calling the path of Chivalry idiotic
>In a Bretonnia quest
Mon dieu
- Location
- Mists of Albion
HONOUR IS ALL!!!
CHIVALRY IS ALL!!!
So… teenage rebel with
Fair enough.
Honour is all. Chivalry is all.
Generally speaking Bretonnian noblewomen don't use weapons at all. The ones who do are either damsels or women playing the role of knight.
Facts like 'bows require strength and skill' are fairly useless in the face of cultural prejudice.
There's a place for mercy and a place for justice. Carole killed Phillips's father, tried killing Phillip himself and (if I remember right) was planning on killing Phillip's children. Executing her would have been no more wrong that amputating a mangled and infected limb - leaving her unattended to plot has endangered our family just like leaving an infected limb attached risks the welfare of the entire body. As far as I'm concerned, mercy for Carole would have been a quick appointment with the headsman.
There's a point where enough is enough. Voting to let Carole live was nothing less than reckless endangerment of Phillip's family. And if chivalry includes protection of the innocent, isn't that something that Phillip's children were entitled to?
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KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Serious question: After her treachery was discovered and aired for all to know, and she was branded, what has Carole done to endanger any of us?
I don't recall hearing of any post-branding plots that went anywhere. Oh, she doesn't like us, sure, but has she actually managed to do anything?
Because if not, all the HARD MEN MAKING HARD DECISIONS unmerciful unchilvarlous dishonorable glorification of kinslaying is pointless.
I don't recall hearing of any post-branding plots that went anywhere. Oh, she doesn't like us, sure, but has she actually managed to do anything?
Because if not, all the HARD MEN MAKING HARD DECISIONS unmerciful unchilvarlous dishonorable glorification of kinslaying is pointless.
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Does bribing several low-ranking functionaries of the court so she can go dancing on your grave when you die count as doing something?
Because if so, yes.