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Unpopular opinions we have on fiction

"Let's go! open up, it's time for Unpop!"
Alright, time for my mandatory Unpopular Opinions Post. Let's get this over with.
"You're late. You know the deal. You can Omelaspost for a Funny, or you can make an interesting post for an Insightful."
Here in Unpopular Opinions Poster Civilisation, no one chooses to make interesting posts. It's better to make the one joke everyone knows for the Funny, rather than risk your entire life for just one Insightful rating.
"Tomorrow you better not be late, or I'll have you posting for Informative reactions as punishment."
"Yes sir, sorry, I won't be late next time."

Down here, us Omelasposters only get one Rating a day. One Funny rating is just enough to get your post:reaction ratio to the next day. But that's the life of Unpopular Opinions Poster Civilisation. If you wanna survive, you have to Unpopular Opinions Post. Every Omelasposter has the same goal, and that's to make it to the top thread, where all the Brothers Karamazovposters live. Except, most Brothers Karamazovposters are born on the top thread. If you're an Omelasposter, there's only one way up, and that is through the Temple of Unpopular Opinions. The Temple of Unpopular Opinions is the only structure on SV that combines the bottom thread to the top thread. To make it up, you have to post an impossibly hard Unpopular Opinion Reply that no Omelasposter has ever completed. And that's assuming you even get the chance to post the reply in the thread. The inside of the Temple is protected by a barrier and the only way an Omelasposter gets past the barrier is if they've earned a gilded post. I've never even tried getting a gilded post before, but if I'm going to rank up to a Brothers Karamazovposter one day, I'm gonna have to.
 
Welp, now I know where the new name for this thread comes from. :V

Many others have made the moral case against slavery here, so, to take a different tack, I dislike how readily the "purchase/acquire waifu from slaver" cliche is used by modern Isekai to show the protagonist is a good person while also still having the slave subservient in every way that matters. Especially in the ones where the characters are still slaves, kink or otherwise.
 
Ralson said:
Fiction can become less entertaining if it contains stuff that bothers us. I'm sure there's some topics that bother you and would reduce your enjoyment of a story, right?

If you root for a protagonist, and then he performs evil acts, that changes your relationship with the character and the way you think about them. Most people think slavery is evil, which reduces their willingness to root for the character, which reduces their enjoyment and instead makes them feel annoyed they got invested in a story only for that investment to feel squandered.

Maybe Mark Twain will have some authority here that I don't: "The test of any good fiction is that you should care something for the characters; the good to succeed, the bad to fail. The trouble with most fiction is that you want them all to land in hell together, as quickly as possible."

I'm sure none of this is really news to you, so I'm trying to dial in on what aspects if any you disagree with.
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This is, IMHO, even more of a problem in Isekai power fantasy shit like Shield Hero. If you aren't rooting for the protagonist, then their constant victory (usually easy victory) is just so fucking annoying.
 
Ralson said:
Hold up. You just read fiction as entertainment to unwind, and you don't like moral messaging, and you were reading Uncle Tom's Cabin?

So... what did you think of the book? Just kinda thought it was a good yarn?
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Sorry, let me explain. I don't like moral messaging that disrupts the entertainment aspect. Uncle Tom's Cabin does not lecture the reader for example; it shows the slavers as being cruel, and does not guilt or shame the reader for it. It allows me to enjoy it without the feeling of being lectured at.

I personally don't care about the moral messaging, but I find it intriguing in its own way, which is why I read it. If nothing else, there is historical value, seeing how people of the past think of slavery. That's definitely more entertaining than your typical 'social justice' schlock who can only insult the readers for not doing enough, and is basically a self-congratulatory pat in the back on how morally righteous they are.

It's perspective basically. If you want to have moral messaging, don't lecture the reader, and don't try to shame them for not being moral enough. Instead, show what a morally good person/action looks like, make them enjoyable and entertaining, that way the reader wants to be like them, rather than being guilted into it.

Lecturing never works, especially if you want to actually improve your messaging. Guilting and Shaming would just invite spite. Nobody wants to enjoy entertainment only to be lectured. They want to relax, to be happy.

I swear, subtle moral messaging seems to be dead these days. They are all 'oh this is bad, and you're bad if you enjoy it'.
 
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freeaim said:
Sorry, let me explain. I don't like moral messaging that disrupts the entertainment aspect. Uncle Tom's Cabin does not lecture the reader for example; it shows the slavers as being cruel, and does not guilt or shame the reader for it. It allows me to enjoy it without the feeling of being lectured at.

I personally don't care about the moral messaging, but I find it intriguing in its own way, which is why I read it. If nothing else, there is historical value, seeing how people of the past think of slavery. That's definitely more entertaining than your typical 'social justice' schlock who can only insult the readers for not doing enough, and is basically a self-congratulatory pat in the back on how morally righteous they are.

It's perspective basically. If you want to have moral messaging, don't lecture the reader, and don't try to shame them for not being moral enough. Instead, show what a morally good person/action looks like, make them enjoyable and entertaining, that way the reader wants to be like them, rather than being guilted into it.

Lecturing never works, especially if you want to actually improve your messaging. Guilting and Shaming would just invite spite. Nobody wants to enjoy entertainment only to be lectured. They want to relax, to be happy.

I swear, subtle moral messaging seems to be dead these days. They are all 'oh this is bad, and you're bad if you enjoy it'.
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Do you have an example of a work lecturing at the reader?
 
Queshire said:
Do you have an example of a work lecturing at the reader?
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Captain Marvel movies in general, as you can feel her being so smug and superior, like shaming the reader. It irks me personally, so I refuse to buy any of her movies.

Wonder Woman 1984, because all male characters are portrayed as either crooks or idiots. I can feel the unhealthy feminist message just from the tone. A pity, because the first one is much better at the messaging.

Charlie's Angels (2019), which is just like Wonder Woman 1984 in it's bad portrayal of men, but much worse. Not only that, the director of the movie blames men for it failing. Ugh, horrible ego!

Mulan, as it fails on its feminist messaging, as they missed the point on how Mulan is supposed to be brains over brawn, and now she gets magic powers for some reason. Also hypocritical, with the concentration camp controversy.

Velma, for obvious reasons. The main character is just so obnoxious, and the disdain by the creator to the viewer so obvious, it makes me puke.

And before you accuse me of being anti-feminist from my examples, I find it fine with feminist messages if it's actually entertaining and does not shame me just for my gender. I love Barbie for one, as it's really good with a clear moral message that doesn't hurt the movie, or insult the audience for that matter.
 
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freeaim said:
Sorry, let me explain. I don't like moral messaging that disrupts the entertainment aspect. Uncle Tom's Cabin does not lecture the viewer for example; it shows the slavers as being cruel, and does not guilt the reader for it. It allows me to enjoy it without the feeling of being lectured at.

I personally don't care about the moral messaging, but I find it intriguing in its own way, which is why I read it. If nothing else, there is historical value, seeing how people of the past think of slavery. That's definitely more entertaining than your typical 'social justice' schlock who can only insult the readers for not doing enough, and is basically a self-congratulatory pat in the back on how morally righteous they are.

It's perspective basically. If you want to have moral messaging, don't lecture the reader, and don't try to shame them for not being moral enough. Instead, show what a morally good person/action looks like, make them enjoyable and entertaining, that way the reader wants to be like them, rather than being guilted into it.

Lecturing never works, especially if you want to actually improve your messaging. Guilting would just invite spite. Nobody wants to enjoy entertainment only to be lectured. They want to relax, to be happy.

I swear, subtle moral messaging seems to be dead these days. They are all 'oh this is bad, and you're bad if you enjoy it'.
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What was your favorite part?

I like the conclusion where the author turns directly to the reader and begs them to do all in their power to destroy slavery, immediately, in the name of God, while condemning the US and its institutions for the unchristian act of not having already destroyed slavery. Concluding:

"If this persecuted race, with every discouragement and disadvantage, have done thus much, how much more they might do if the Christian church would act towards them in the spirit of her Lord!

This is an age of the world when nations are trembling and convulsed. A mighty influence is abroad, surging and heaving the world, as with an earthquake. And is America safe? Every nation that carries in its bosom great and unredressed injustice has in it the elements of this last convulsion.

For what is this mighty influence thus rousing in all nations and languages those groanings that cannot be uttered, for man's freedom and equality?

O, Church of Christ, read the signs of the times! Is not this power the spirit of Him whose kingdom is yet to come, and whose will to be done on earth as it is in heaven?

But who may abide the day of his appearing? "for that day shall burn as an oven: and he shall appear as a swift witness against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger in his right: and he shall break in pieces the oppressor."

Are not these dread words for a nation bearing in her bosom so mighty an injustice? Christians! every time that you pray that the kingdom of Christ may come, can you forget that prophecy associates, in dread fellowship, the day of vengeance with the year of his redeemed?

A day of grace is yet held out to us. Both North and South have been guilty before God; and the Christian church has a heavy account to answer. Not by combining together, to protect injustice and cruelty, and making a common capital of sin, is this Union to be saved,—but by repentance, justice and mercy; for, not surer is the eternal law by which the millstone sinks in the ocean, than that stronger law, by which injustice and cruelty shall bring on nations the wrath of Almighty God!"


I'm sure this is much less preachy than Captain Marvel, though.
 
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freeaim said:
Captain Marvel movies in general, as you can feel her being so smug and superior, like shaming the reader. It irks me personally, so I refuse to buy any of her movies.

Wonder Woman 1984, because all male characters are portrayed as either crooks or idiots. I can feel the unhealthy feminist message just from the tone. A pity, because the first one is much better at the messaging.

Charlie's Angels (2019), which is just like Wonder Woman 1984 in it's bad portrayal of men, but much worse. Not only that, the director of the movie blames men for it failing. Ugh, horrible ego!

Mulan, as it fails on its feminist messaging, as they missed the point on how Mulan is supposed to be brains over brawn, and now she gets magic powers for some reason. Also hypocritical, with the concentration camp controversy.

Velma, for obvious reasons. The main character is just so obnoxious, and the disdain by the creator to the viewer so obvious, it makes me puke.

And before you accuse me of being anti-feminist from my examples, I find it fine with feminist messages if it's actually entertaining and does not shame me just for my gender. I love Barbie for one, as it's really good with a clear moral message that doesn't hurt the movie, or insult the audience for that matter.
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So a MCU movie, a DC movie, a Disney live action movie and.... pffffft.
 
freeaim said:
Captain Marvel movies in general, as you can feel her being so smug and superior, like shaming the reader. It irks me personally, so I refuse to buy any of her movies.

Wonder Woman 1984, because all male characters are portrayed as either crooks or idiots. I can feel the unhealthy feminist message just from the tone. A pity, because the first one is much better at the messaging.

Charlie's Angels (2019), which is just like Wonder Woman 1984 in it's bad portrayal of men, but much worse. Not only that, the director of the movie blames men for it failing. Ugh, horrible ego!

Mulan, as it fails on its feminist messaging, as they missed the point on how Mulan is supposed to be brains over brawn, and now she gets magic powers for some reason. Also hypocritical, with the concentration camp controversy.

Velma, for obvious reasons. The main character is just so obnoxious, and the disdain by the creator to the viewer so obvious, it makes me puke.

And before you accuse me of being anti-feminist from my examples, I find it fine with feminist messages if it's actually entertaining and does not shame me just for my gender. I love Barbie for one, as it's really good with a clear moral message that doesn't hurt the movie, or insult the audience for that matter.
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i mean i vaguely agree with you on some points (not the being mad at disney for giving mulan magic powers, thats fine, my issue with that film is definintly the genocide support.) and i... have opinions on certain styles of feminist messaging but somehow i feel like your going to not fully understand them.
 
Honestly I'd say the problem has more to do with those movies being cash grabs than anything else... and Velma.
 
Ralson said:
But yeah I'm sure this is way less preachy than Captain Marvel.
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More preachy perhaps, but actually has a point. That, and it is from way back when things are worse, so I can excuse it. Modern examples have no excuse, they act oppressed but they are actually privileged, only playing the victim.

I guess it's more about the emotional feeling rather than some logical reasoning. I understand that these kind of stories are more preachy, but they are justified due to how bad things were back then. Preachy modern stories feel too on the nose, and irks me more. I dunno, maybe my words are illogical, but it's more about my personal emotions here. I don't feel lectured from reading Uncle Tom'a Cabin, but I feel talked down by many modern media.

Except for Barbie. Seriously, I am so amazed that a feminist movie can be entertaining while not feel like they are insulting my gender. Way better than She-Hulk from the previous year, which is just obnoxious.
 
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Voikirium said:
Like, to point at the specific example that comes to mind, I won't even try and deny that Minamoto no Raikou from Fate is a character designed to appeal to the mommy kink.

She is just also a fascinating examination of what happens when a society in general and parents in particular try to force somebody into a box because that's what's most convenient for them, whether or not it is all a person is or wants to be.
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I agree


I have the lancer version which makes me wonder "can someone be a exhibitionist without even taking notice of what clothing (or lack of clothing) they wear and acting like everyone else who gawks are just imagining it... Or is it a bizzare kink thing for Raikou" but your Raikou is cool too


(Yes I am a bit sour that I didn't roll Berserker Raikou why do you ask :V )

I do like Lancer Raikou tho, she's fun
 
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freeaim said:
More preachy perhaps, but actually has a point. That, and it is from way back when things are worse, so I can excuse it. Modern examples have no excuse, they act oppressed but they are actually privileged, only playing the victim.

I guess it's more about the emotional feeling rather than some logical reasoning. I understand that these kind of stories are more preachy, but they are justified due to how bad things were back then. Preachy modern stories feel too on the nose, and irks me more. I dunno, maybe my words are illogical, but it's more about my personal emotions here. I don't feel lectured from reading Uncle Tom'a Cabin, but I feel talked down by many modern media.

Except for Barbie. Seriously, I am so amazed that a feminist movie can be entertaining while not feel like they are insulting my gender.
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you know maybe you arent too secure in your gender if you feel like your being insulted by just... every modern feminist media.
also boy is this current time not great for... certain subsets of women, lets say. and misygony didnt end just becuase we have the right to vote now :p
 
Fourthmatchflame said:
you know maybe you arent too secure in your gender if you feel like your being insulted by just... every modern feminist media.
also boy is this current time not great for... certain subsets of women, lets say. and misygony didnt end just becuase we have the right to vote now :p
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I feel insulted because not only they are just bad in entertainment value. Heck, I can tolerate preachy messaging if it's actually, I dunno, good? Case in point, She-Hulk vs Barbie, both feminist messaging yet I like one more than the other.

Then again, perhaps it's just more cultural differences. Feminism takes different forms in my country, and in a way they have more issues, and I support them more in IRL stuff. Say, support groups for women, helping against unequal pay and harassment, and all that. My family members are active on that front, and I support them.

It feels more contrite and real, thus I see western feminist media as more shallow. I dunno, people complaining about 'fanservice', 'bad portrayal', and 'lack of diversity' in pop culture feels self-indulgent to me. Like, why not focus on actual issues rather than how entertainment portrays you? Feels like misplaced priorities.
 
freeaim said:
It feels more contrite and real, thus I see western feminist media as more shallow. I dunno, people complaining about 'fanservice' and 'bad portrayal' in pop culture feels self-indulgent to me. Like, why not focus on actual issues rather than how entertainment portrays you? Feels like misplaced priorities.
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becuase as we all know media never colors peoples percecptions of real people and real world issues.
also you know, we can complain about rep in media and also do materialist stuff?
 
Fourthmatchflame said:
becuase as we all know media never colors peoples percecptions of real people and real world issues.
also you know, we can complain about rep in media and also do materialist stuff?
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Perhaps, but I can feel that most of them are 'slacktivists'. All they do is complain 'oh lack of diversity' or 'oh this is problematic portrayal' and sharing their takes on social media, while doing nothing to help IRL victims.

Wateryblue said:
Also they may be lacking since it thrives in a neo liberal capitalist world, true equilibrium for genders can not be partnered to capitalism in itself
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Yep. These companies don't really care about social issues, all they want is your money. Thinking that supporting some 'progressive' media would fix things is just you being suckered in. Do stuff! Help with activist groups! Don't just bitch and moan on tiktok and twitter!
 
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freeaim said:
Perhaps, but I can feel that most of them are 'slacktivists'. All they do is complain 'oh lack of diversity' or 'oh this is unhealthy portrayal' while sharing their takes on social media, while doing nothing to help IRL victims.
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i feel like i should be allowed to complain about depictions of people like me in media that is consumed by many people coloring the perceptions of people like me in media even if i wasnt trans.
 
Fourthmatchflame said:
i feel like i should be allowed to complain about depictions of people like me in media that is consumed by many people coloring the perceptions of people like me in media even if i wasnt trans.
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True, but don't be surprised if people would be annoyed at it. Like it or not, the majority of people doesn't care, and overly obnoxious moral messaging would hurt your cause more than it helps. Heck, I see some of my friends growing more apathetic about social issues because they feel like they are being lectured about it 24/7 on social media. The only reason I still care is because I focus more on local issues, like the things that women in my country and especially my family is facing, and not listening to problems that I can't meaningfully affect.

The key here is to not shame your opponents, it's to convince the apathetic majority to care about your cause. Lecturing, shaming, and complaining would just drive them away.
 
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well, im not gonna talk to you anymore becuase this is clearly not a productive arguement, nobody reply to me until this guy has moved on and i can ramble about i dunno, dllc being a form of queer media.
 
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