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Unpopular opinions we have on fiction

"Let's go! open up, it's time for Unpop!"
Alright, time for my mandatory Unpopular Opinions Post. Let's get this over with.
"You're late. You know the deal. You can Omelaspost for a Funny, or you can make an interesting post for an Insightful."
Here in Unpopular Opinions Poster Civilisation, no one chooses to make interesting posts. It's better to make the one joke everyone knows for the Funny, rather than risk your entire life for just one Insightful rating.
"Tomorrow you better not be late, or I'll have you posting for Informative reactions as punishment."
"Yes sir, sorry, I won't be late next time."

Down here, us Omelasposters only get one Rating a day. One Funny rating is just enough to get your post:reaction ratio to the next day. But that's the life of Unpopular Opinions Poster Civilisation. If you wanna survive, you have to Unpopular Opinions Post. Every Omelasposter has the same goal, and that's to make it to the top thread, where all the Brothers Karamazovposters live. Except, most Brothers Karamazovposters are born on the top thread. If you're an Omelasposter, there's only one way up, and that is through the Temple of Unpopular Opinions. The Temple of Unpopular Opinions is the only structure on SV that combines the bottom thread to the top thread. To make it up, you have to post an impossibly hard Unpopular Opinion Reply that no Omelasposter has ever completed. And that's assuming you even get the chance to post the reply in the thread. The inside of the Temple is protected by a barrier and the only way an Omelasposter gets past the barrier is if they've earned a gilded post. I've never even tried getting a gilded post before, but if I'm going to rank up to a Brothers Karamazovposter one day, I'm gonna have to.
 
General_Urist said:
Thing is, if you allow a space where one is permitted to express a certain opinion and not be harassed for it and such, than that sounds like a space where that thing is normalized. Yet you seem to be arguing that creating space where something such as "sexualization of children" is normalized is dangerous because it serves as a 'base camp' for people to advocate making it permissible in the wider world.
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Okay. I might as well be clear. I am deeply unconvinced that allowing a space where that behavior is normalized is good or acceptable to begin with, but I could at least see being able to make that argument depending on data on the whole subject and how much harm it would cause that at the moment I would say we simply don't have. I am not saying I would agree with it, prima facie I wouldn't, but I could at least see making that argument.

However, there is absolutely a difference between the effects of something being normalized in a select space and something being normalized on a societal level, wouldn't you agree?
 
To try and help with that-

I honestly have a pretty significant distaste for like, tragic fiction, where it feels like the narrative is basically just a collection of bad things happening to characters with very little happiness to balance it out in order to make some kind of thematic point- Grave of the Fireflies or I believe Oshi no Ko is just the immediate example that comes to mind, but generally some kind of work where the main purpose is obviously to make you sad. I think those works can have plenty of artistic merit, and be perfectly enjoyable pieces of fiction with very valuable things to say, but I just can't find much enjoyment in them. I feel like if I wanted to primarily be depressed when engaging with something, I could just look at what's happening in reality. I do enjoy works where bad things happen to the characters, but I do prefer there to be more of a balance between good things and bad things, and for there to be some kind of sense that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and tragic things happening to the characters to not feel like it exists to be part of the main appeal.
 
Clown Bean said:
Okay. I might as well be clear. I am deeply unconvinced that allowing a space where that behavior is normalized is good or acceptable to begin with, but I could at least see being able to make that argument depending on data on the whole subject and how much harm it would cause that at the moment I would say we simply don't have. I am not saying I would agree with it, prima facie I wouldn't, but I could at least see making that argument.

However, there is absolutely a difference between the effects of something being normalized in a select space and something being normalized on a societal level, wouldn't you agree?
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I do agree. But it sounded like you were arguing even normalizing it in a select space was unacceptable because it created an undesirable platform for people to argue normalizing it on the societal level also.
 
Clown Bean said:
To try and help with that-

I honestly have a pretty significant distaste for like, tragic fiction, where it feels like the narrative is basically just a collection of bad things happening to characters with very little happiness to balance it out in order to make some kind of thematic point-
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I feel I can more easily handle that sort of fiction if it's in written form, e.g., I quite liked the original Handmaid's Tale book yet still have zero desire to watch the show. I think it's because if something's just text, it can make it a lot easier to stomach for me
 
General_Urist said:
I do agree. But it sounded like you were arguing even normalizing it in a select space was unacceptable because it created an undesirable platform for people to argue normalizing it on the societal level also.
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I wasn't necessarily intending to have an inherent moral judgment on doing it on a small scale- I do certainly have opinions about that but it wasn't the point of the example- but to provide a base example of what normalization does in a space, and then note that this would be occurring on a societal level. But I think most of us, including me, are weary of this entire convo, so I'm probably not going to respond to anything more about the topic.

ArlequineLunaire said:
I feel I can more easily handle that sort of fiction if it's in written form, e.g., I quite liked the original Handmaid's Tale book yet still have zero desire to watch the show. I think it's because if something's just text, it can make it a lot easier to stomach for me
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To an extent that's true with me too, I did enjoy the Great Gatsby when I was younger, though I've found that I have less and less of a taste for that as I've grown older too. I just prefer positive vibes I suppose.
 
ArlequineLunaire said:
I feel I can more easily handle that sort of fiction if it's in written form, e.g., I quite liked the original Handmaid's Tale book yet still have zero desire to watch the show. I think it's because if something's just text, it can make it a lot easier to stomach for me
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Huh, interesting; I'm the opposite. Dark fiction makes me feel worse when it's written, not watched. It just feels more real to me when it's written, I think.
 
Clown Bean said:
To try and help with that-

I honestly have a pretty significant distaste for like, tragic fiction, where it feels like the narrative is basically just a collection of bad things happening to characters with very little happiness to balance it out in order to make some kind of thematic point- Grave of the Fireflies or I believe Oshi no Ko is just the immediate example that comes to mind, but generally some kind of work where the main purpose is obviously to make you sad. I think those works can have plenty of artistic merit, and be perfectly enjoyable pieces of fiction with very valuable things to say, but I just can't find much enjoyment in them. I feel like if I wanted to primarily be depressed when engaging with something, I could just look at what's happening in reality. I do enjoy works where bad things happen to the characters, but I do prefer there to be more of a balance between good things and bad things, and for there to be some kind of sense that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and tragic things happening to the characters to not feel like it exists to be part of the main appeal.
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I'm not sure I feel that way about Oshi no Ko specifically, maybe in what the anime has covered so far but it does have its dramatic highs to go with the lows, the Tokyo Blade arc stands out for that. I haven't started the anime though so it may feel more unpleasant in motion. But I do get this with some stories.
ArlequineLunaire said:
I feel I can more easily handle that sort of fiction if it's in written form, e.g., I quite liked the original Handmaid's Tale book yet still have zero desire to watch the show. I think it's because if something's just text, it can make it a lot easier to stomach for me
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Sound design, music, and the way speech is directed I think can do a lot to make an already dark story feel overwhelmingly, relentlessly miserable to watch. It's really hard to sit through something when everyone sounds like they're about to break down in tears at any moment, all the time.
 
This is the thread for opinions about fiction, as opposed to politics or daily annoyances or other things.

If you want more pedobait in mainstream media then your opinion is on-topic but eesh. That is a load of bait.

If you want to debate how porn affects people psychologically, how the availability of porn affects the sexual crime rates, sociocultural effects, and other fun topics then make a new thread.
 
MrCogmor said:
This is the thread for opinions about fiction, as opposed to politics or daily annoyances or other things.

If you want more pedobait in mainstream media then your opinion is on-topic but eesh. That is a load of bait.

If you want to debate how porn affects people psychologically, how the availability of porn affects the sexual crime rates, sociocultural effects, and other fun topics then make a new thread.
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Good idea.

Before we do that here is my own two sense about... "What we just discussed"

If we go after "Lolicon" what would be the end goal... Because I'm not seeing a light at the end of that tunnel, should we stop at individual artists doing it for fun... Or maybe "Hentai", I for one don't think that would work because so long as there is a market then it will spawn no matter how we feel.

Then we get into the "reeds" such as Made In Abyss, a series with a lot of artistic value... That just happens to have copious amount of child nudity and rarely other "Sus" moments,

And don't get me started on Cartoons in the west, because here in America it's perfectly okay to sexualize a very young boy but lord help ya if it's a little girl, it's very hypocritical
Arthur Frayn said:
Seriously, I cannot believe we are having this discussion, the people who are seeking out loli porn aren't doing it because they've got a fetish for old souls in young bodies or people suffering from rare hormone disorders, they're doing it because uh they want to see sexual depictions of children/people who look like children.
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Yes but be careful when painting "Hormone Disorder" with such a wide brush, they are in fact consenting adults that we should respect their love life because these people do in fact exist, we can think they are strange all we want but we have no say in what they do now they are of appropriate age even if they look a lot younger then they actually are

(I myself look rather younger than I actually am... Or at least I think I do)
 
MrCogmor said:
This is the thread for opinions about fiction, as opposed to politics or daily annoyances or other things.

If you want more pedobait in mainstream media then your opinion is on-topic but eesh. That is a load of bait.

If you want to debate how porn affects people psychologically, how the availability of porn affects the sexual crime rates, sociocultural effects, and other fun topics then make a new thread.
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Is this implying porn isn't fictional? :thonk:
 
Hasinaw said:
What are you even talking about?
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See the MANY. Times a little boy is seen fully naked (sometimes with "sexy saxophone music" just to make sure you get what the show is trying to do)

... Leaves a bad taste in my mouth is all I'm saying... Especially since it still is a rather "Harmful" Trope still ongoing today,

As usual
I Blame The Patriarchy completely for that
 
Delirium said:
Is this implying porn isn't fictional? :thonk:
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Some porn is fictional, some porn isn't.

Regardless there is a distinction between opinions on fiction and the wider political context surrounding the fiction. E g you can have a personal dislike of violence in videogames without getting into a massive argument over school shootings or something like that.
 
Wateryblue said:
See the MANY. Times a little boy is seen fully naked (sometimes with "sexy saxophone music" just to make sure you get what the show is trying to do)

... Leaves a bad taste in my mouth is all I'm saying... Especially since it still is a rather "Harmful" Trope still ongoing today,

As usual
I Blame The Patriarchy completely for that
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What?

Where?

Have you seen that in cartoons?

What shows are you even talking about?
 
Stop: CEASE TALKING ABOUT ACCEPTABILITY OF THE SEXUALIZATION OF MINORS IN FICTION
  • Staff Post
    • cease talking about acceptability of the sexualization of minors in fiction
    With regards to the thread banner, and that the discussion is about over the acceptability of 'fictional pedophilic content in which no one is harmed' on SV; this is not a conversation we are going to have here, so cease the talk about it ASAP.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • *walks in, sees what's been discussed in the few pages* WTF? uhhhh..... normally I'd agree with the idea that depictions of fictional characters harm nobody at all, but the way it's been said by some poster seems a little suspicious and makes me squint my eyes suspiciously in the style of the SupiciousFry.gif meme.

    Anyways!! moving on!!

    Clown Bean said:
    To try and help with that-

    I honestly have a pretty significant distaste for like, tragic fiction, where it feels like the narrative is basically just a collection of bad things happening to characters with very little happiness to balance it out in order to make some kind of thematic point- Grave of the Fireflies or I believe Oshi no Ko is just the immediate example that comes to mind, but generally some kind of work where the main purpose is obviously to make you sad. I think those works can have plenty of artistic merit, and be perfectly enjoyable pieces of fiction with very valuable things to say, but I just can't find much enjoyment in them. I feel like if I wanted to primarily be depressed when engaging with something, I could just look at what's happening in reality. I do enjoy works where bad things happen to the characters, but I do prefer there to be more of a balance between good things and bad things, and for there to be some kind of sense that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and tragic things happening to the characters to not feel like it exists to be part of the main appeal.
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    I'm with you on that one. I too hate that kind of thing where there isn't even a balance and it's nothing but endless misery porn.

    It's like forgetting that people need a balance of happiness and sadness, a balance of variety, etc in order for them to be able to grasp the point.

    In fact, I was coming in here to discuss how Pixar and Disney seem to forget that point of needing more variety and balance because lately it's been all the same exact stories all over and over. They've done completely away with villains, and now instead it is all about generational childhood traumas or whatever.

    And it's gotten worse, what with the movie Elemental being the prime example of this. it doesn't seem to know what it wants to be about. Is it a Romeo and juliet love story? nah! Is it about the dangers of segregation? no, it seems to be in favor of that, strangely enough. is there some big bad out there that's destroying the city? No. there are a lot of hints about it being about generational trauma, but it does this thing so poorly that you're not sure it's not even about trauma at all.
     
    Something unrelated from a while ago:

    Avernus said:
    As far as superheroes go, in many cases the "totally rational optimizer" that a lot of people think characters are supposed to be would just go around naked. After all, their skin is tougher than armor and clothing is an unnecessary expense that just gets ripped up in combat.

    It'd be funny to have some alien super comment that they just refused to wear anything until the super team they are on agreed to reimburse them for the clothing damage.
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    I remember a story I read once where a character with high durability basically says:

    "I don't wear heavy body armor because I need it. I'm just tired of winding up stripped more or less naked every time some jackass with an RPG tries to kill me and fails."

    Sarissa said:
    Tolkien is not some supreme moral authority. Like, obviously he was a great rider and progressive for his time, but I keep seeing people drop quotes of his to make a point or using him and his stories as a frame of moral reference.

    He has his views and expressed them eloquently (and very thoroughly). Doesn't mean much.
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    The reason Tolkien gets this (and other fantasy writers of his generation mostly don't) is because Tolkien actively goes out of his way to have some of his characters be compassionate, high-minded, well-intentioned individuals. And as you note, he expresses his views eloquently.

    So he's a good source to mine for well-written, eloquent quotes in defense of compassionate, high-minded, well-intentioned behavior. You can find damn good Tolkien quotes in support of things like "not being vengeful," "not having the death penalty," "banding together to solve greater problems and not getting hung up on nationalism," "not judging people by their appearance or whether they adhere to local social conventions," and "not being so obsessed with someone's capacity for death-dealing that you ignore the other frankly more important moral virtues they may have."

    Those are good things for people to promote even in the present day.

    Plenty of people had greater moral wisdom than Tolkien, but few of them went out of their way to write a lot of highly quotable material involving widely loved fictional characters as a mouthpiece for whatever moral wisdom they might possess.
     
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    So I think the original Hellsing anime was really good, just not as good as ultimate,

    Like it was basically "CSI Hellsing" with how it went.

    With the big change being The Valentine Brothers attack on HQ not totally destroying the Organization, so the regular everyday soldiers and investigators get episodes to shine with Seras Victoria


    But the really controversial opinion is that the 2003 version of "Fullmetal Alchemist" is a lot better than "Brotherhood"

    Not sure if I mentioned that
     
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    Simon_Jester said:
    I remember a story I read once where a character with high durability basically says:

    "I don't wear heavy body armor because I need it. I'm just tired of winding up stripped more or less naked every time some jackass with an RPG tries to kill me and fails."
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    Yeah; I'm reminded of a story I read where a "brick" type character made herself a chainmail bikini just so she wouldn't end up naked every time she got into a fight.

    Only tangentially related, but in terms of "amusing fictional clothing issues" I did like the idea from the Parasol Protectorate series that Victorian fashion was a plot by vampires to troll werewolves with elaborate multi-layer clothing that took forever to take on and off.
     
    WriterInTheVoid said:
    I've never particularly been fond of the kind of political writing popularized by a lot of Grimdark fantasy like ASOIAF.
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    My unpopular opinion is that people calling ASOIAF "grimdark fantasy" truly do not know what grimdark fantasy is. Every time I hear or read it called that, I feel like I want to chuck The Prince of Nothing/Second Apocalypse series at their heads or lock them in a room with only these books to read. Never before have I read something so thoroughly miserable, dark ages so grim, or a philosophy so nihilistic about human existence.

    Next to that, ASOIAF going "there are shitty things in this world but doing the right thing, even when it's hard or inconvenient or lead to your death, is still worth something" is small potatoes. And you can also see the stark difference in what else they write: GRRM wrote Dunk&Egg, a brightly optimistic side story about how there can be chivalry even in Westeros.

    R. Scott Bakker, the author of the aforementioned Prince of Nothing/Second Apocalypse series, wrote a thriller about a serial killer neurologist who tortures people to prove that free will is false and he ends up winning.
    WriterInTheVoid said:
    Westeros has this issue in spades. But Slaver's Bay is especially awful. Is there any point to that location besides 'slavery == bad.' Like I honestly cannot even picture what Slaver's Bay aristocrats do in their free time when they're drinking wine and lounging about besides going 'God I love owning slaves.'
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    I think this is misdiagnosing the problem. This is not because of "political writing" heaping evils on an other cultures, but it's much more simpler: a lack of care because of the needs of the narrative.

    Whenever GRRM actually spends time in a place, he is more than willing to provide nuance or at least give sympathetic characters, frequently in POV form, even in cultures doing a lot of terrible things. We see this with the Ironborn, the wildlings, and even the Dothraki to some extent, poorly written as a nomad culture as they are. But in Slaver's Bay, it's just an obstacle, so there is no deeper examinaton of Ghiscari culture, it is foreign, and exotic, and orientalistically decadent. The sympathetic characters are either slaves or Ghiscari who agree with Dany's slave liberation (Shavepate).

    As someone who, like millions of others, is the descendant of slaves, I have zero problem dunking on slavers, but this is paired with some eyebrow raising orientalism that makes it harder to enjoy.
    Aurora Moon said:
    In fact, I was coming in here to discuss how Pixar and Disney seem to forget that point of needing more variety and balance because lately it's been all the same exact stories all over and over. They've done completely away with villains, and now instead it is all about generational childhood traumas or whatever.
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    I was gonna say that teenage kraken movie seems to be a return to form with an actual villain, but it's by Dreamworks lmao. That studio does remember that having an antagonist in your story is not a bad thing.

    But who knows, Wish appears to have an actual villain so there's still hope.
    MrCogmor said:
    From reading the wikipedia article it seems to be about relationship drama.
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    From what I know, the film puts a lot of emphasis on fire girl's relationship with her father and their story as immigrants to the big city, because it is partly based on the creator's experience as a Korean-American, so generational trauma does seem to play a part.

    My unpopular opinion is that people seem to be tripping too much about that movie. The movie seems mid but mostly fine, but to hear the internet talk about it, it's the worst thing Disney/Pixar ever put to screen.
     
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