Tome of the Orange Sky (Naruto/MGLN)

[FaerieKnight79]

The problem is that if someone lies to you once they cannot be trusted to not lie to you again. In this situation, Kakashi lied about his test. As such we cannot use what was said in the bell test as proof of how the world of Naruto works. If you have any proof that only 2/3 of their class passes I'd love to see it. And no, not seeing any other teams in canon doesn't count as that could just as easily be the absence of evidence and not the evidence of absence.

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I can see a major problem with that statement. Here, let me give you an example.

Let's say you're married to a soldier. That soldier is part of a special operations unit. You being their spouse does not give you authorization to know every detail of every mission the person you married goes on. Hell, they may not be allowed to tell you what their actual job is. Maybe your spouse tells you they are a vehicle mechanic, when in truth they are a sniper. Would that lie, mandated by the their superior officers mean you can never trust anything they tell you?

While we don't actually know how many of the kids from Naruto's class actually went on to become genin, there's equally no way to conclusively say that the 2/3rds number given by Kakashi is wrong. The blanket statement of "if he lied once you can never trust him again" would also suggest you think Kakashi should have been disbelieved when he picks up missions for the team, or when training them. When on missions you're saying that Team Seven should have never believed anything their CO said, just because he lied as part of the test to become a genin. Or in other words, that Team Seven should have disregarded everything Kakashi ever says. Yes, even orders given while on a mission.

 

[Hawkmoon]

SNIP

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In this case nothing said during the test can be taken as 100% truth. Because what Kakashi said was designed to increase tension. We have at least 3 other lies/misdirections in just that test:

• Don't eat breakfast - designed to keep them hungry and focused on the reward (food for those that succeed)
• Only 2 bells and the ones who don't get one get sent back hungry - we know it was a teamwork test and the bells weren't important
• Don't feed Naruto while he was tied up - we know how that turned out

Test failure rates could be another misdirection to increase pressure. And if I remember correctly the test success rates don't account for the sizes of the shinobi armies during the 4th shinobi war.
Another time such misdirections were used was during Ibiki's part of the chunin exam. The entire exam was about cheating without getting caught while the words said implied not to cheat (until you realized that you had multiple chances to cheat before being disqualified) and of course the last question which had a big lie of never being able to become a chunin if they attempted the question and failed.
Another fact is Kakashi famous quote "A ninja must see underneath the underneath.". A ninja must realize what is truth and what is a lie and act upon that information.

 

[uaeoaeoeoi]

Yes, they eventually became a coherent (sort of) team... The movies featuring all three of the pre-time skip Team Seven are rather vague on when exactly they take place.

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The movies take place between Tsunade returning to be the hokage and Sasuke abandoning the village because Naruto has the rasengan in even the first movie, also I think that only includes the Land of Snow movie specifically.
As for teamwork, the most shown is a single combination technique that Sasuke probably just assumed was Naruto passing him a normal weapon or two while almost all fights after wave end up essentially picking an opponent and fighting several one vs one battles or taking turns when one gets smacked down rather that any of the team cooperating during a fight to get an advantage.

during Ibiki's part of the chunin exam. The entire exam was about cheating without getting caught while the words said implied not to cheat (until you realized that you had multiple chances to cheat before being disqualified) and of course the last question which had a big lie of never being able to become a chunin if they attempted the question and failed.

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Something I find hilarious, the way that the test is explained, Naruto technically got a perfect score because you start with full points and only lose points for answering incorrectly or being caught cheating, Naruto not answering any question meant he lost no points, this would also fit Ibiki's view that having false information is worse than having no information.
It would also be hilarious if Naruto pointed that out to his team via the telepathic communication technique they have in this story and they all decide to not actually write down any answers on their tests even if they manage to find or solve for the answers anyway.

 

[MWKillKenny84]

Another time such misdirections were used was during Ibiki's part of the chunin exam.

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The most hilarious take on Ibiki's part of the Chunin Exam is in "Cheaters Prosper": upon getting the rules, Naruto waits long enough for Kabuto (that had proved to be a veteran and an 'intellectually elevated' ninja) to finish to write down his answers, upon wich Naruto walked to his desk and openly swiped away Kabuto's sheet.

When asked, he (more or less) replied "You penalize us for cheating, not fail us. So I made sure that I had to cheat only once".

 

[uaeoaeoeoi]

When asked, he (more or less) replied "You penalize us for cheating, not fail us. So I made sure that I had to cheat only once".

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I've seen versions of this used in a few fics before, often with Ibiki responding along the lines of "I'll allow this one time because you had the balls to do it first, anybody else does this from here on out and they fail."

 

[sainen]

I've seen versions of this used in a few fics before, often with Ibiki responding along the lines of "I'll allow this one time because you had the balls to do it first, anybody else does this from here on out and they fail."

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the best version I've run across is from a Sakura SI over on QQ.
where she blatantly filled out her test answers then sent a shadow clone with it to Naruto and took his empty test page.
at the end of the test Ibiki points out that sometimes the information cannot be gained without being caught(either while acquiring it in the first place or while passing it on to your allies to get it back to the village), and that sometimes the Intel is so valuable it's worth risking your life to get it back to your allies.

 

[podlizurko]

I liked the fics where Ibiki warns Naruto that he cant punch his way through the 10th question, so he responds that he will kick his way in if he has to.

 

[TheRoseKnight]

I can see a major problem with that statement. Here, let me give you an example.

Let's say you're married to a soldier. That soldier is part of a special operations unit. You being their spouse does not give you authorization to know every detail of every mission the person you married goes on. Hell, they may not be allowed to tell you what their actual job is. Maybe your spouse tells you they are a vehicle mechanic, when in truth they are a sniper. Would that lie, mandated by the their superior officers mean you can never trust anything they tell you?

While we don't actually know how many of the kids from Naruto's class actually went on to become genin, there's equally no way to conclusively say that the 2/3rds number given by Kakashi is wrong. The blanket statement of "if he lied once you can never trust him again" would also suggest you think Kakashi should have been disbelieved when he picks up missions for the team, or when training them. When on missions you're saying that Team Seven should have never believed anything their CO said, just because he lied as part of the test to become a genin. Or in other words, that Team Seven should have disregarded everything Kakashi ever says. Yes, even orders given while on a mission.

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At what point did I say they would never tell the truth? I said we cannot trust that they wouldn't lie to you again. That means that everything said by the person is now in doubt. Yes, everything. I also never said that once a liar always a liar. That means that he could very well tell the truth if and when he wants to. Nor did I say everything should be disregarded out of hand, but because he has lied, you should always fact-check. In a mission setting where it is difficult, if not impossible, to do that you would obviously follow orders even if it turns out to be a lie in the end. To do otherwise would be stupid. So yes, I cannot take what is said by Kakashi at face value. It must be backed up by other canon sources before I believe it to be canon.

As for your example of a soldier, none of that makes sense to me. First, in every form of NDA or similar I have ever heard about, yes even military, you can say "I can't talk about it" and not get in trouble. If this is wrong please do show me an example. Second, the far easier thing to do, in this case, would be a dumbing down of how good the soldier is not a mostly fabricated story. I.E. A sniper would still be a sniper, there is no reason to cover that up. We have plenty of snipers after all. The soldier could then just say "I can't talk about it" or "I don't want to talk about it" and everything is true without revealing any secrets.

 

[TypoNinja]

That means that everything said by the person is now in doubt.

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That statement I quoted from you is the entire point.

He was training them to examine limited information critically. They weren't supposed to take his words on faith, they were supposed to think for them selves. The 'don't eat you'll only puke' warning is clearly in reference to physical exertion while training the next day.... if you think you're in good shape and can take it, eat anyway. Will the lack of strength from not eating be better or worse than possibly puking later? A lighter meal you'll be less likely to upchuk later? They got basic intel from him, and needed to choose how to act on it.

Three fresh graduates should have zero chance against a jonin instructor who knows they are there. Fighting him is *not* the goal, so obviously the information gained from that source is wrong.

Intel isn't always accurate. You have to be able to examine it and decide what looks good, what looks fishy, not take it all on faith.

You say its about trust, and it is, but its not about being able to trust, its about teaching them to be *less* trusting.

 

[DestinyPlayer]

That statement I quoted from you is the entire point.

He was training them to examine limited information critically. They weren't supposed to take his words on faith, they were supposed to think for them selves. The 'don't eat you'll only puke' warning is clearly in reference to physical exertion while training the next day.... if you think you're in good shape and can take it, eat anyway. Will the lack of strength from not eating be better or worse than possibly puking later? A lighter meal you'll be less likely to upchuk later? They got basic intel from him, and needed to choose how to act on it.

Three fresh graduates should have zero chance against a jonin instructor who knows they are there. Fighting him is *not* the goal, so obviously the information gained from that source is wrong.

Intel isn't always accurate. You have to be able to examine it and decide what looks good, what looks fishy, not take it all on faith.

You say its about trust, and it is, but its not about being able to trust, its about teaching them to be *less* trusting.

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Especially when you consider that lying is not an immediate "okay, you told me that there are bagels in the fridge but there are not. I will not disbelieve you when you say that a tornado is about to hit the house." Nobody goes from zero to a hundred like that.

 

[TypoNinja]

Especially when you consider that lying is not an immediate "okay, you told me that there are bagels in the fridge but there are not. I will not disbelieve you when you say that a tornado is about to hit the house." Nobody goes from zero to a hundred like that.

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Well, also, they're ninja.

They're all supposed to be suspicious bastards, looking for hidden meaning, and on guard for subterfuge.

"You spent the morning hungry because you didn't consider the implications of these instructions" is a nice object lesson. The next time they get handed short instructions they're going to consider what these orders imply is coming up.

 

[FaerieKnight79]

The next time they get handed short instructions they're going to consider what these orders imply is coming up.

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Unfortunately, this would be the Team 7 from canon... right? Did they ever learn to do that? Or did they just learn to adapt to changing situations because they couldn't "look underneath the underneath"?

 

[Prince Charon]

Unfortunately, this would be the Team 7 from canon... right? Did they ever learn to do that? Or did they just learn to adapt to changing situations because they couldn't "look underneath the underneath"?

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The manga and anime never had them (on screen) get the right information to be sure they would learn that lesson. It's possible that one of them might have worked it out on their own, but even Sakura is straightforward enough to make me doubt that she would, even after being told 'look underneath the underneath.' The way the kids are depicted (less 'young ninja' or 'child soldiers,' more 'modern twelve-year-olds with L33T N1NJA SK1LLZ'), she's the one most likely to work it out on her own, but she has other stuff to think about, including things that she shouldn't be wasting her time on (how many hours per week do you think she spends mooning over Sasuke at that point in her life?).

 

[FaerieKnight79]

To be fair, Kakashi never actually bothers to explain what "look underneath the underneath" actually means during the 2 or 3 times he uses that phrase that we see. And none of his genin were particularly subtle, even if they knew how to be sneaky. As such, a trite saying and subtle lessons would fly right over their heads. Sakura was too busy stalking Sasuke and mooning over him. Sasuke was too busy brooding about vengeance. And Naruto... Well, he's pretty strait forward. While he can be sneaky and devious (as seen in his pranking the village and stealing the scroll at the start of canon), he doesn't understand subterfuge at the start of canon. To be fair though, from what is known... the academy didn't teach it either. I think it took the training trip with Jairya to maybe get him to learn that skill.

 

[Prince Charon]

Naruto... Well, he's pretty strait forward. While he can be sneaky and devious (as seen in his pranking the village and stealing the scroll at the start of canon), he doesn't understand subterfuge at the start of canon. To be fair though, from what is known... the academy didn't teach it either.

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That's one of the things that bothers me about the series, though to be fair, Narutoverse ninja are largely not what we're used to thinking of as ninja, being more like 'mercenary ki-wizards' (which may not be far off from how ninja are imagined in modern Japan).

 

[BarbaCoPut]

I wonder if he could make something like a doorway on a tree/wall and open up into its own pocket area with various basic living luxuries. Something like that might be considered master seal work.

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Uzumaki's magnificient mansion then?

And it actually seems like a valid tactic to use against an opposing village; figure out what generates a lot of paperwork, and cause events to happen that creates that ton of paperwork. Slide in more paperwork as well. Either copies of ones already in the stack, or just whole cloth created ones. Fake up a team, and submit mission reports possibly without even putting in the right paperwork so that they have a record of said team. Throw in some forms that they don't have, but look like real ones. Such as a 'inanimate object has joined the ninja force'. Unless that is one, which just makes me wonder what caused it to be created. Blank forms, improperly filled out ones either incomplete or just plain wrong information (like the form is filled out, but the answers are shifted three lines down), whether or not they're 'real' forms or not.

A particularly mean idea would be some sort of paperwork seal, that solely does that kind of thing. Or maybe casts a genjutsu like effect to make a paperwork stack look taller than it is.

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OH NO! The feared Bureocracy Genjutsu!

But I'm wondering if anyone noticed the moments where there ended up being two Yokos?

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eh.. that would probably got chalked to spirit stuff... as in , a spirit came to talk to Yoko and obviously took her human form ...

 

[FaerieKnight79]

Considering the only time there would be 2 Yokos is first thing in the morning, it's likely nobody would notice unless they were spying on the apartment.

 

[shade argost]

Considering the only time there would be 2 Yokos is first thing in the morning, it's likely nobody would notice unless they were spying on the apartment.

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Considering Naruto is using the Uzumaki compound as the target point and not his room that gets even harder.

 

[FaerieKnight79]

Even more so since he doesn't use the known entrances/exits to the Uzumaki compound for the clones to leave.

 

[Mr_Rose]

I feel like there's some kind of twist coming, where Yoko becomes "real" because she gets so much independent time – she's already accidentally surviving Naruto falling asleep; perhaps one day dismissing her just won't work…

 

[FaerieKnight79]

I feel like there's some kind of twist coming, where Yoko becomes "real" because she gets so much independent time – she's already accidentally surviving Naruto falling asleep; perhaps one day dismissing her just won't work…

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Wouldn't be the first time that's happened in a Naruto fic.

 

[LostArchivist]

Oh, yeah. Sasuke being kunoichi of the year due to a tradition backfiring is one of the funniest things I've read in a while.

Apparently Konoha had suffered a zombie attack, starting in a few training grounds before escalating to the entire village. With zombies that turned into stone, fire, or lightning when destroyed. Huh. He knew that he'd screwed up the wind and water aspects of that seal array, but he'd disabled and destroyed it long before leaving the village...hadn't he?

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*spittakes* Wait, he actually did it?! There are so many levels of stupid and hilarious here that I'm not sure where to begin.
To the extent that this basically perfectly matches his own attempt...

"So we're doing a C-rank that's probably at least a B-rank as cover for looting a pissant to the ground," Anko-sensei said.

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Ooh, I wonder what that mission could be?

and ideally tanking his shipping company so hard that ours gets a bunch of emergency contracts that will lead to longer-term relationships.

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I really appreciate the fact that they're going proper well-executed murderhobo on this.

Some of them are merely classic Uzumaki tactics, at least one of which you figured out on your own already far too early, others are jutsu that range from stupid-seeming but weirdly effective to effective-seeming but actually useless. A few of the jutsu have gone by hundreds of names, independently recreated by generations of Uzumaki.

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Oh boy. This is going to break everyones' minds, isn't it.

Naruto had commented that some of them weren't that effective and had been 'volunteered' to test them as a result, only for them to find out that they genuinely weren't all that effective on him. Tenten had fallen over almost immediately with a couple, but they needed dangerously high doses to properly knock him out.

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When you say something stupid, but you're proven right.

"What are you wearing?" Anko-sensei asked as Naruto arrived at the arranged meeting point near the village gates.

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He's going to bond with Haku, calling it now.

Anko-sensei turned to stare at him. "Hold up, are you implying that you do have a portable shower? As in you finally figured out how to get one working that isn't just a tank with a hose?"

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Oh that is such bullshit.
On an unrelated note, he is never going to be wanting for money.

Tazuna seemed shocked at all of this,

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Wasn't Tazuna a merchant once?
Either way, I'm sure he's reeling from this but is inwardly counting exactly how much money he could make from this if he can use this stuff -- or re-sell it!

Ah. So there's going to the potential for that to be triggered at some future point. And the official story already stated that there was a few other labs left undiscovered. Which might mean that some of Orochimaru's hidden labs did get found in the aftermath that did have that seal (or really, any other ticking timebomb seal array), but not telling Naruto and co that they ended up accidentally pulling off a simulation of what could have been an actual threat.

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It's gloriously convoluted and is almost certainly weirder than even the conspiracy theories about it, so it's probably true.

 

[FaerieKnight79]

Oh that is such bullshit.
On an unrelated note, he is never going to be wanting for money.

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Eh, while that's sort of true... this assumes that he does put it up for sale. Let alone wants to spend all his time making portable showers.

That said, in a Rifts campaign I once played a technowizard who invented a portable shower that ran on magic. He made two versions. One was a collapsible and man portable version, and the other was installed in large vehicles. It became his biggest seller. The character was an adventurer by necessity, but a merchant by trade.

Wasn't Tazuna a merchant once?
Either way, I'm sure he's reeling from this but is inwardly counting exactly how much money he could make from this if he can use this stuff -- or re-sell it!

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He's an architect, which is a vastly different skill set to being a merchant.

 

[uaeoaeoeoi]

What will really let Naruto make money off of the portable shower and such is when he can make a seal that can make seals, then he has all he needs for an automated manufacturing facility for all of his inventions. Given how all the kunoichi will react to learning about the portable shower and his ability to travel with probably the entire contents of a real-world Walmart (assuming he use a storage seal to store more storage seals recursively without the "bag of holding and portable hole" type of risks) then that an automated production seal is probably inevitable.

 

[FaerieKnight79]

I doubt "seal that makes seals" is a thing. "shadow clones that can make seals", yes. But it's probably not possible to make a seal that automates the creation of seals.